Macross: Variable Fighter operations

[Nied]

Yup it is!! ^_^

While doing some reading about military aircraft and looking at various Macross designs, this just occurs to me.

The Macross saga uses the American style nomenclature for aircraft denomination. For example, the Cat's Eye has the type number ES-11D. Meaning Electronic (warfare) Space / number 11 / block D. The VF-1A Valkyrie has the denomination Variable Fighter / number 1 / Block A (D/S/J etc). This means the VF-1 is the only variable fighter to be called Valkyrie. All others are Variable Fighters, but don't carry the name "Valkyrie", just as there's only one Tomcat. In this style, SV-51 most likely means Submarine (launched) Variable (fighter) / type 51 / Alpha or Gamma. The prefix Sukhoi Variable is also possible, but unlikely.

The only exception in this, is the VF-171 from Macross Frontier.

While the UN Spacy uses a variation on the US tri-service designation system (or the system currently used by the JASDF which itself is a variation on the US system) there's no reason to believe the Anti-UN uses the same system. Given the heavy former Warsaw Pact influences on the AUN it's more likely the the SV is a manufacturer designation (like MiG for Mikoyan-Gurevich or Tu for Tupolev) than any type of tri-service designation.

[Vostok 7]

While the UN Spacy uses a variation on the US tri-service designation system (or the system currently used by the JASDF which itself is a variation on the US system) there's no reason to believe the Anti-UN uses the same system. Given the heavy former Warsaw Pact influences on the AUN it's more likely the the SV is a manufacturer designation (like MiG for Mikoyan-Gurevich or Tu for Tupolev) than any type of tri-service designation.

I would assume it's Sukhoi Variable (though, depending on context, Variable in Russian may not start with a 'V'). Otherwise, it would be Su-51, or even more accurately, it would be SuIAIDo-51 or SuDoIAI-51 (see: LaGG), though most properly, assuming each company involved had their own variations, it would be prefixed by whatever company sold it to the military, I.E. Soviet Bloc countries would use an Su-51, Middle Eastern countries would use an IAI (insert Israeli name here) and Germany and other European countries would use a Do xxx (see: Sukhoi/HAL FGFA).

And actually, following standard definition, couldn't the VF-1 actually be classified A/FV-1? I think it would fill both the attacker and fighter roles.

Vostok 7

Edited December 22, 2008 by Vostok 7

[SchizophrenicMC]

I think it was specifically for Fighter roles, not attacker roles, like our current F/A planes. They're designed to balance out between the two. The VF-1 was insufficiently suited for attack, until the FAST and Strike packs were developed.

[Vostok 7]

I think it was specifically for Fighter roles, not attacker roles, like our current F/A planes. They're designed to balance out between the two. The VF-1 was insufficiently suited for attack, until the FAST and Strike packs were developed.

Attack is a pretty broad term. Look at most aircraft designated "Attack", F/A-35, F/A-18, A-10, AV-8B, etc. etc. Most of them use the term "attack" in the sense of ground attack/support, which both the Battroid and GERWALK modes of the VF-1 would fill in spades

Vostok 7

Edited December 22, 2008 by Vostok 7

[SchizophrenicMC]

F/A-35 and 18, and AV-8 are designed to attack naval targets, and as such, carry ASMs. The A-10 is a designated piece of flying artillery.

GERWALK was designed to make the VF-1 low-altitude capable, and Battroid was designed to make the VF-1 capable of combat with a race of giants... I see no attack role, Vostok...

[Vostok 7]

F/A-35 and 18, and AV-8 are designed to attack naval targets, and as such, carry ASMs. The A-10 is a designated piece of flying artillery.

GERWALK was designed to make the VF-1 low-altitude capable, and Battroid was designed to make the VF-1 capable of combat with a race of giants... I see no attack role, Vostok...

Ah, I see where you were going with the FAST/Strike = Attack.

But I mean, wouldn't a Battroid be "Attacking" a Zentraedi?

Vostok 7

[anime52k8]

Actually, using the American classification system, VF would be used. An entire series of planes gets its own class.

Therefore, Variable Fighter-1.

SV could go either way, classification or Ruskie...

not quite. with the US tri-service, letters are added right to left, with the first letter being aircraft type. type would be things like V for VTOL, S for spaceplane, H for helocoptor, etc. etc.

the next letter would be the the primary mission: F for fighter, B for bomber, C for cargo, etc. etc.

then modified/secondary mission: A for attack, R for reconnaissance, E for electronic warfare etc. etc.

then you get the status code: Y for prototype, N for Predominantly modified test aircraft, G for permanently grounded, etc. etc.

Now here's the interesting thing, conventional fixed wing aircraft don't have a letter for aircraft type so they just skip strait to the primary mission letter. hence why all the tomcat is just F-14, and the warthog is just A-10

anything that isn't a fixed wing airplane gets a special letter, that's why helicopters have H, and the harrier in the US is AV-8. (odd thing about that, all helicopters are numbered sequentially whether there attack or cargo or transport but fixed wing aircraft get separate numbers for each mission because numbering is based on the right most letter. whats odd is that while the harrier is of the V series it's numbered sequentially from the A series)

since the V in VF stands for Variable aircraft (or in the real world VTOL, which does work) the V should come before the F, since F just equals mission.

if a plane were to have the designation VF using the Tri-service system, it would be a conventional fixed wing Fighter that has a secondary capability as a staff transport. (interesting combo)

Bit of trivia, Boeing aircraft are classed B-(Plane number). For example, B-737. Boeing produced all but 2 of the USAF's bombers. Bombers are calssed B-(Plane number). B-52, for example.

um no. Boeing planes are often abbreviated B-(insert number here) in the civilian sector, but in military service the sequential numbers and mission spacific letters just like everything else (the 747 in military service is designated C-18, the 727 is C-22, and the US doesn't operate 737's so there is no designation for them) the only one that uses Boeings' in house numbers is the KC-767, but the first letters still match.

also where did you get the part about Boeing produced all but 2 of the USAF's bombers? sure Boeing built most of them but even if you restrict it to operational bombers only, I can still rattle off more than a half dozen off the top of my head: B-24 liberator = Consolidated; B-25 mitchell= North American; B-32 dominator = Consolidated; B-36 peacemaker = Convair; B-57 hustler = Convair; B-1 lancer = Rockwell; B-2 spirit = Northrop Grumman.

OK, technically North American and Rockwell were bought out by Boeing, but since all of North American's bombers were retired before that happened, they don't count. the B-1 can go either way.

:EDIT:

YF is universal for experimental fighters. So, even with the US MAC system, YF-19/21 would be so.

also the YF-19/21 designations are wronge for several reasons. first since it should be FV instead of VF, it should be YV-19 for prototype variable. but because you don't drop the mission letter when naming prototypes (example: YAH-56) it should actually be YFV-19.

Edited December 23, 2008 by anime52k8

[anime52k8]

And actually, following standard definition, couldn't the VF-1 actually be classified A/FV-1? I think it would fill both the attacker and fighter roles.

I think it was specifically for Fighter roles, not attacker roles, like our current F/A planes. They're designed to balance out between the two. The VF-1 was insufficiently suited for attack, until the FAST and Strike packs were developed.

oh oh, almost forgot to mention this, the F/A in F/A-18 is an anachronism. the rules of the tri-service system actually says you can't have forward or back slashes in designations only numbers, letters and dashes. the hornet should actually be AF-18. (just like how the electronic warfare varient of the super hornet is the EF-18G growler)

Attack is a pretty broad term. Look at most aircraft designated "Attack", F/A-35, F/A-18, A-10, AV-8B, etc. etc. Most of them use the term "attack" in the sense of ground attack/support, which both the Battroid and GERWALK modes of the VF-1 would fill in spades

Vostok 7

an attack aircraft is an aircraft that is designed to engage ground targets, but is smaller than a bomber and typically operates in a close air support role.

the VF's are multi-roles, and while attack is in there list of mission profiles, planes that can do swing missions/switch quickly between roles tend to just use the primary mission letter so they don't have ridiculously long designations.

also it's not F/A-35, it's just F-35. they dropped the /A just like they dropped the /A on the F-22

F/A-35 and 18, and AV-8 are designed to attack naval targets, and as such, carry ASMs. The A-10 is a designated piece of flying artillery.

GERWALK was designed to make the VF-1 low-altitude capable, and Battroid was designed to make the VF-1 capable of combat with a race of giants... I see no attack role, Vostok...

the F/A-18 is designed to attack ships, ground targets on land, and to shoot down inferior Com-block aircraft. the AV-8 is designed to take off from small ships and support Marine forces on land. the F-35A is designed to attack land targets and shoot down com-block crap, the F-35C is designed to supliment/ Replace legacy hornets in the same role and the F-35B replaces the AV-8 harrier in the same role.

Batroid mode on a valk allows it to engage enemy mecha up close and on the ground. the GERWALK mode lets it act like a helicopter. and valks have the capability to attack ground/naval targets.

so you could argue for it being used as an attack aircraft.

[Nied]

I would assume it's Sukhoi Variable (though, depending on context, Variable in Russian may not start with a 'V'). Otherwise, it would be Su-51, or even more accurately, it would be SuIAIDo-51 or SuDoIAI-51 (see: LaGG), though most properly, assuming each company involved had their own variations, it would be prefixed by whatever company sold it to the military, I.E. Soviet Bloc countries would use an Su-51, Middle Eastern countries would use an IAI (insert Israeli name here) and Germany and other European countries would use a Do xxx (see: Sukhoi/HAL FGFA).

And actually, following standard definition, couldn't the VF-1 actually be classified A/FV-1? I think it would fill both the attacker and fighter roles.

Vostok 7

I always wondered how Dornier or IAI would be spelled in Cyrillic and if they're the source of the V.

[Vostok 7]

I always wondered how Dornier or IAI would be spelled in Cyrillic and if they're the source of the V.

Usually they would just be spelled as they are in latin characters since company names aren't usually translated in that sense. At most they would transliterate the names into cyrillic as best possible.

Dornier being a name would definitely only be transliterated. IAI is possible for translation since those are separate words that form a name, but even still being a company name it usually wouldn't be translated out. I'll look it up and see what it comes up with.

Vostok 7

[SchizophrenicMC]

Eh, whatever. We've got a lot of strange names for things in the field. F-117, for example. It has no dogfighting, or indeed, air combat capabilities, making the "F" seem useless. In actuality, it's a light stealth bomber. So, one could assume that the A was never added, for whatever reason. The F-117 should be A-117, or the like.

[hobbes221]

Eh, whatever. We've got a lot of strange names for things in the field. F-117, for example. It has no dogfighting, or indeed, air combat capabilities, making the "F" seem useless. In actuality, it's a light stealth bomber. So, one could assume that the A was never added, for whatever reason. The F-117 should be A-117, or the like.

IIRC it was given the 'F' as disinformation to cover what it's true role was.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well... Perhaps, but now that everyone knows what it does, why not use a different classification?

Anyway, did the Angel Birds fly VF-1As, or Js? The only video material of episode one I can find is an old, grainy video of Robotech my dad used to own... And that's the only episode they're in. Anyone?

Um, back to the SV-51 launch thing real fast, the Blue Angels didn't get their hands on them, Blue Thunder did. I mean, the Angel Birds had VF-0s, so why wouldn't Blue Thunder have SV-51s? (Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, get it? ok, not funny... sorry...)

[hobbes221]

Anyway, did the Angel Birds fly VF-1As, or Js? The only video material of episode one I can find is an old, grainy video of Robotech my dad used to own... And that's the only episode they're in. Anyone?

All the models and toys of them that I have seen are -1As, anyone else?

[SchizophrenicMC]

All the models and toys of them that I have seen are -1As, anyone else?

Well, I don't consider toys to be canon sources of info. I mean, just up until last month, Mr March's Macross Mecha Manual listed the VF-1 Stealth as a 1A. It still could be, but Yamato says otherwise... I dunno.

[Vostok 7]

Generally I would imagine that the Angel Birds would fly -1As. Demonstration teams usually fly the most stripped model (for lightness, quickness, acceleration and handling). Since the Valks are pretty much the same across the board save for the head lasers and slight avionics differences, I'd imagine the "stripped" -1A would be the best choice.

Vostok 7

Edited December 23, 2008 by Vostok 7

[Vostok 7]

I always wondered how Dornier or IAI would be spelled in Cyrillic and if they're the source of the V.

Just as I thought, in translated to Russian words, IAI would only be IAP (Izrail' Aerokosmicheckoy Promyshlennosti), so no V there. Unless Dornier and IAI were working under an umbrella company together with Sukhoi, but all the information we have lists them together.

Which is why I imagine it just stands for Sukhoi Variable.

Vostok 7

[SchizophrenicMC]

The Angel Birds were invented in 1982, due to the Infamous Thunderbirds Diamond Crash, which happened in January of the same year... Of course, I'm making that up, but it's a strange coincidence...

"Angel Bird-1, ready for takeoff." So, what does Angel Bird-1 pilot? The Thunderbirds are gonna be in near-combat-spec F-16 next season. If there was the need, they'd be the same as any F-16 in the rest of the USAF within 72 hours.... So, would it be so odd to assume AB-1 pilots a 1J?

[Vostok 7]

The Angel Birds were invented in 1982, due to the Infamous Thunderbirds Diamond Crash, which happened in January of the same year... Of course, I'm making that up, but it's a strange coincidence...

"Angel Bird-1, ready for takeoff." So, what does Angel Bird-1 pilot? The Thunderbirds are gonna be in near-combat-spec F-16 next season. If there was the need, they'd be the same as any F-16 in the rest of the USAF within 72 hours.... So, would it be so odd to assume AB-1 pilots a 1J?

Why -1Js and not -1S'? And why the whole team? -1Js were for air team leaders and squadron leaders, the -1S was limited production for squadron leaders and Air Group commanders. If anything, the team leader of the Angel Birds would fly a -1J and the rest would be -1As.

Vostok 7

[hobbes221]

If we mix a little Macross and RW then I could see the ABs having a -1J for the lead, -1As for the rest along with a -1D for VIP rides and the like.

[Vostok 7]

If we mix a little Macross and RW then I could see the ABs having a -1J for the lead, -1As for the rest along with a -1D for VIP rides and the like.

Yeah, the Blue Angels use a FA-18B two-seater for ridealongs.

And the Russian SV-51 team would be the Swift Knights

Vostok 7

[Remko]

Eh, whatever. We've got a lot of strange names for things in the field. F-117, for example. It has no dogfighting, or indeed, air combat capabilities, making the "F" seem useless. In actuality, it's a light stealth bomber. So, one could assume that the A was never added, for whatever reason. The F-117 should be A-117, or the like.

That was what everyone thought, but I saw a Discovery show about the Nighthawk once where they had an interview ith an F-117 pilot. He said that the plane did have a self defense against other aircraft besides flares and chaff, but what it was exactly he wouldn't tell.. Classified...

[SchizophrenicMC]

I've my doubts, Rem. The thing simply doesn't have the design for dogfight-capable speed. If anything, I'd say its defense is an onboard EMP generator. You know, BIG electromagnet coil. If you're careful, you can screw an enemy's plane without doing yours. However, this is hardly the case in real life. Perhaps it's got EM-shielded avionics? I dunno. The US and its "Classified" is kinda stupid. We KNOW it ain't got poo. We're still scared of it, ok? Jesus.

Well, that's what I was saying. AB-1 has a 1J, AB-2 through 6 have 1As. VIP ridealongs use a 1D.

Swift Knights doesn't explain the Blue and Yellow paintscheme on the 51s in "All That VF Zero". So, Blue Thunder and its rival air team, the Angel Birds, held an airshow, opposing each other.... Over a replica of Mayan Island...

[anime52k8]

That was what everyone thought, but I saw a Discovery show about the Nighthawk once where they had an interview ith an F-117 pilot. He said that the plane did have a self defense against other aircraft besides flares and chaff, but what it was exactly he wouldn't tell.. Classified...

hehe... I saw that part and thought that it was funny. The "extra self Defense" capability was that the F-117 can be loaded with 1 or 2 AIM-9 sidewinder missiles, but in practice they never flew with them. and that still doesn't qualify it for the F designation. the A-10's regularly carry AIM-9's for self defense, doesn't make them fighters.

I think the best explanation I ever heard for why they called it the F-117 was because when they first entered service the air force wanted only the best pilots to fly them, and those pilots wouldn't be caught dead flying something with an A designation.

the real reason though is that for years before the F-117 was developed, the USAF had been acquiring and testing Soviet built aircraft. These aircraft were given the designations F-112 through F-116, which were sequential with the old Pre-1962 system (and therefor pre-institution of the the Tri-service convention) of which the various century series aircraft are part of (i.e. F-100, F-105, F-111 etc. etc.)

anyways when the F-117 was introduced, rather than giving it the correct A-11 designation they decided to name it F-117 in sequence with this series of Russian aircraft, so that if someone cam across this aircraft designation somewhere, they would be more inclined to think it was soviet aircraft rather than some new stealth attack plain.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Makes sense... If you ask me, though, Active Stealth needs more work. Passive stealth leaves a radar signature, though it is smaller. However, Active Stealth does have its disadvantages... Like giving the whole world your position, due to its bubbly nature. (The field is a bubble, therefore it is bubbly!)

[badboy00z]

Kind of like the GN particles in Gundam 00. The lack of signal in a particular area is where you're hiding.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Um... You lost me, kid. I'm boycotting 00, since what I've seen looks stupid, even for a post-Seed Gundam anime. I know not what GN particles are, their effects, or the type of energy signature they produce... So... You're saying when you hide, your cell phone ceases to work? I seriously have no idea...

[valkyriepilot]

Um... You lost me, kid. I'm boycotting 00, since what I've seen looks stupid, even for a post-Seed Gundam anime. I know not what GN particles are, their effects, or the type of energy signature they produce... So... You're saying when you hide, your cell phone ceases to work? I seriously have no idea...

what he's trying to say is that making yourself "too quiet" while moving from one point to another leaves a "void" where you are at a specific point. it's a little like placing a gun in a lead-encased portfolio and passing it through an X-ray scanner at the airport; the X-ray wouldn't be able to penetrated all that lead, but the airport security will get suspicious of you since you're obviously hiding something...

oh, just want to point out, you don't have to really, you know, bash other shows just to say that you have no idea what a certain element in the show is about right? a simple "what's a GN particle do?" would probably suffice. just a suggestion.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I wasn't bashing it because of that. I was bashing it because I think it sucks.

[Remko]

I never quite understood the active stealth from Macross (same as the pinpoint barrier system, what's that, something like the AT field from Evangelion??), but I always considered the active stealth system to be something more advanced of current systems. So, VF's would have been equipped with advanced camouflage techniques (i.e. cloaking device) and higly reduced EM-signature, or possibly a system which actually counters enemy sensors.

Anyway, the coolest 'active' stealth (more a tactic) system I know of is the one used by the F-22's (and possibly other 5th generation aircraft). Two of them fly in formation, the second aircraft a couple of miles behind the forward aircraft. The rear aircraft has it's radar activated, and starts scanning for enemy fighters. When found, the pilots sends a signal to the forward aircraft, which will advance to get withing firing range and launches a missile to intercept. Because the forward aircraft doesn't have it's radar on, it's virtually invisible to any enemy forces, who only see the rear aircraft being without missile range, and think they will be safe. When the missile starts homing in, it will probably be too late to react, and the enemy aircraft are doomed. It's cheating, but it beats the hell out of engaging in a fuel consuming dogfight with far more risks. Hey, the F-22 isn't called an Air Dominance fighter for nothing (even though the YF-23 was way cooler)!!

[Final Vegeta]

what he's trying to say is that making yourself "too quiet" while moving from one point to another leaves a "void" where you are at a specific point. it's a little like placing a gun in a lead-encased portfolio and passing it through an X-ray scanner at the airport; the X-ray wouldn't be able to penetrated all that lead, but the airport security will get suspicious of you since you're obviously hiding something...

Maybe a more fitting comparison is what happens in SDF Macross (I think the episode was called "Blind Game")

As for Gundam 00, I remember when in episode 23 they actually said "GN particles detected" and I was like . Anyway, that's not for this forum.

FV

[SchizophrenicMC]

The F-22 doesn't use Active stealth, it uses Passive stealth. The body design is such that radar waves aren't all reflected back to the detector. The closest thing we have to Active Stealth is Electronic Counter Measures. Using radar jamming to prevent enemies from getting a fix on your location. The problem is, it gives your enemy a good estimate on where you are, based on the large, screwy spot on the radar.

Blind Game? Which one was that? I haven't seen SDFM in so long...