Why are Macross figs so expensive?

[sqidd]

I understand both points which are very good by VFTF1 and sqidd

Thanks

now here lies the problem with most of MW member, if I buy a toy that 10x better designed and expensive, and I'm not manhandling the thing and it breaks, should I complain about it? or just suck it up? oh, but there are spare available, but I must pay for them and also pay for shipping, ok, I get the spare and it's just as faulty, plus the added time of disassembling the toy, replacing the piece and putting it back together to break again, and so on and so on and so on

The big rub here is that we are not in a market that is officially serviced by Yamato. As far as getting spare parts and having to pay international shipping that is on us and our choice. We are buying “grey market” toys. When you go grey market you automatically loose some of the advantages of buying it in its selling market.

The fact that they are fragile is most likely based on cost. I guarantee you that Yamato is not getting rich off of selling these. The cost to design and produce one of these is incredibly high and the very low numbers that are produced don’t help one bit. One of the products that I designed for Ducati motorcycles I sell for $675. I generally take pre orders of 20-30 at a time and then I have my machine shop run them off for me in those small batches. In the last 4 years I have sold about 300 of them. When I was pricing these out it was amazing how much less I could get them produced for if I purchased them in large quantities. Not only would it cost me less simply because of the volume, they would cost me less because with the large numbers comes the opertunity to use different manufacturing techniques. For example, my product is currently made from billet aluminum. If I was say ordering 1000 at a time I could have them cast aluminum instead and that right there would cut my cost in half. I can’t afford to order a 1000 at a time though. So my point is when you as a manufacturer are dealing with a niche market you are very limited in your production choices. The second manufacturing downside to the small quantities is that if I had them cast opposed to billet the part would be considerably lighter which firstly saves me money on materials, but it also becomes more attractive for the customer because light is right when it comes to motorcycles.

Yamato is probably in a very similar situation. They are most likely working with antiquated production equipment and methods which make their base cost go way up. And the obvious that is that they are very low production. I did some searching last night on population statistics of boys between the ages of 5 and 12. Then I tried to guess at the potential market of a Yamato toy based on the amount of members on this board times 10. That is probably more than there really are. I figured the 5-12 buying market by using a number that was 25% of the population which is probably rather low when it comes to Transformers. I imagine it’s fair to say that 25% of boys 5-12 in the USA have some transformers. The numbers I came up with are absolutely mind boggling. My very rough and half guess method of potential markets tells me that Transformers outsell Yamato over 250 to 1. That is an incredibly massive difference in production numbers. And if we had the real numbers it would probably be even a bigger spread. The ability to wash out costs across such massive sales is a huge reason why Transformers are not much money at all. They get to take advantage of every single large manufacturer cost savings method. It’s probably fair to say that a Transformer probably costs 10% of their retail price to produce. I’ll bet dollars to donuts that Yamato’s cost is 50% of their retail price. From the above it’s pretty clear how large production runs give a manufacturer an incredible advantage.

The “quality” of the Yamato product is directly related to this situation also. They simply don’t have the profit margin to do enough engineering, product development, product testing, etc that a larger company has. That leaves them in a position where they either send them out fragile and possibly flawed or raising their retail pricing to absorb the additional cost. Clearly they decided that sending them out fragile is much more effective than increasing the retail price. They are already at the top threshold of what someone will pay for a model/toy. In the long run I’ll bet they end up selling a lot less units if they go with a higher retail price and improve the product. At some point it could be flawless but it would cost so much no one would buy it.

in the end, I didn't get what I payed for...

After you purchased your first Yamato and found out it was fragile/prone to breaking you knew if you purchsed another that you would not get what you expected. At that point you knew the quality and you knew the price but you still chose to buy it. Hence you did get what you paid for. You knew the quality of the second one you purchased before you paid for it.

so yes, for me, although I have the money I consider a breaking toy TOO EXPENSIVE

This was defined above. You do not have the ability to level that statement. No one person does. And once you purchased your second one you lost all rights to even think about being able to claim that. By purchasing them you are in fact stating that they are not too expensive. If they were too expensive and you believed that from the bottom of your heart you would own one Yamato product because you would never have purchased a second. Who buys something that they know is not up to their expectations or thinks is over priced? The answer is a moron, and it’s clear you are not a moron. You have made the choice that they are not “to expensive” by purchasing multiple units. There is no arguing this. Unless of course you would rather classify yourself a moron.

[Black Valkyrie]

With all the positive and negative reviews, feed backs for Yamato`s VFs over the years, IMO I consider them to be hq expensive preassembled models, since they are too fragile to be a toy.

[Knightdramon]

So here's a thought, please don't mutilate me for it;

I'm pretty sure most of you got a Movie Leader Prime [either version] or a Movie Leader Brawl from Hasbro in the past year. Nearly everybody and his mom have that Prime.

I'm not going to count electronics this time, but the thing retailed for US 40 [the asking price in Japan was US 61 or sth, though]. Now that thing has a more complex transformation [in my opinion] than the 1/48 VF-1 and the newer 1/60 VF-1. It's cheaper, more articulated and more detailed than the 1/48 valkyrie. And by detailing I do not mean accuracy to the line-art, but actual sculpting on the figure's plastic. Heck, my Universe\Henkei Powerglide has far more panel-lines, rivets and bolts sculpted on than the 1/48 I used to own.

I'm a bit tired of reading about Yamato being a young company. How long has it been, 10 years? Now surely that's about 1/5 of what Hasbro is around, but STILL, that's some years of experience in handling transforming mechanoids. The biggest laughing stock of Yamato was surely the whole VF-0 fiasco; it took them what, 1-2 years to produce a non-faulty version?

I believe the whole "not exporting their goods to the US because of HG" is also a bit old. People whine and bitch about paying 50 USD for a transformer figure or not finding it on clearance a day after release, you think they'd fork over ~180 USD per figure if they were released in the US? I'm a firm believer that whomever wants a Yamato valkyrie and is situated in the US or EU like me gets it via import. I get my transformers via importing because even after shipping they are cheaper than the shelf price here, what makes you think I'd get a Yamato valkyrie if I saw one for ~250 euros in a store?

This all comes from a fan who has handled and owned every yamato release from their 1/48 VF-1 to the 1/60 YF-19. I absolutely loved the SV-51 but that was it, I was left pretty uninterested by the rest of them. Will I get more? I'll fork over cash when they release a VF-1A Max TV version, then maybe get a Fokker to go with it.

Most of us are fans of these figures\universe of sci-fi, but have you asked somebody that may have casually handled one of these figures what they think about them? What they think about the price\what you get ratio?

Yamato also has the opportunity to milk most of these moulds dry via repaints. Only thing they had to change for the 1/48 figs was the head sculpt and colours, same thing goes for their newer ver 2.0 but this time with a remould for the two-seaters.

So in retrospect, as a transforming figure with the transformation scheme that's offered, yes, we're paying a bit too much for these figures.

[miriya]

With all the positive and negative reviews, feed backs for Yamato`s VFs over the years, IMO I consider them to be hq expensive preassembled models, since they are too fragile to be a toy.

I was thinking about this statement last night while working on my VF-25 model and was thinking that the Yamato valks are a bit like models although a bit more sturdy, yet not as sturdy as a toy (as most toys). However even if they were considered to be models, or especially if they are considered to be models then I would have to say they are underpriced if you consider the amount of time/money it takes to complete a model.

Now for me, I have some freelance clients lined up waiting for me to do work for them so when I am working on a model I am not spending that time making money. Sure, the VF-25 cost me about $50 but I am going to spend probably about 9 hours on this puppy which at the lower of my two freelance rates would be the equivalent of $360. Or if I were to commission a model maker to build the model for me it would still cost me well over $150. So when I look at it that way, I am thinking that I am getting a great deal paying $200 for an SV-51 by Yamato or a 1/48 VF-1J Milia with super parts. It is model quality, a bit sturdier and costs me less money/time than a model.

But still I wish they cost less money so that I could buy more.

[mr.chogokin]

If Yamato is to be considered a model quality toy by any stretch, they should just pack the parts on trees just like all the model kits companies out there. I reckon I can do a much better job at assembling it than their China factory workers.

And they like to glue-shut parts! Now if they had done a swell job, they can glue the part shut all they like, but since their assembly work is piss-poor, I rather they not spoil the amazing work that had been put to molding them.

Yamato is a fine example where as a company and practice, they are way ahead of time in terms of pricing (voracious appetite), but are badly lacking in proper expertise to match their ambition, whose products are further cheapened by outdated materials, technology and halfheartedly managed & serviced by lazy employees.

I find it laughable that Yamato is compared to Ferrari. Ferrari exists on a different stratosphere... Yamato can barely survive each product release without one form of design or production problem or something. You just can't do that.

Edited November 13, 2008 by mr.chogokin

[Valkyrie addict]

The analogy to the ferrari is not correct I think; because

1) cars have warranties so you can take them in for repairs, and you usually pay insurance on your car anyways

2) ferraris - even the wildly expensive ones - are mass produced on a much larger scale than Valkyrie

3) Ferraris are designed to work. Yamato has to design Valkyries to be anime accurate to some crazy Japanese guys' vision. Yamato COULD have just said "ah screw the anime" and done a "practical" version of the Valkyries, mass produced them, and taken money. They didn't. They chose to pursue a big dream and do something that no one in the market ever risked.

urrr...I think you didn't understand what I was referring too with my Ferrari analogy, what I meant was, something beautiful must be done right, not halfed ass, if it's a toy that's meant to be played with it shouldn't break so easily and more if it's costs plenty

by your interpretation of the car analogy you are basicly telling me Yamato intentionally designs their valks to break...WTH? maybe you should think about the PR thing a bit more, hehe

[eugimon]

1) cars have warranties so you can take them in for repairs, and you usually pay insurance on your car anyways

2) ferraris - even the wildly expensive ones - are mass produced on a much larger scale than Valkyrie

3) Ferraris are designed to work. Yamato has to design Valkyries to be anime accurate to some crazy Japanese guys' vision. Yamato COULD have just said "ah screw the anime" and done a "practical" version of the Valkyries, mass produced them, and taken money. They didn't. They chose to pursue a big dream and do something that no one in the market ever risked.

They are asking a high price for their risk - they are asking fans and Macross lovers to share the risk.

I do.

Pete

ps - I think Yamato should hire me as a PR guy sometimes I would do pretty well

err... there were only 400 enzos made.

[Black Valkyrie]

Now for me, I have some freelance clients lined up waiting for me to do work for them so when I am working on a model I am not spending that time making money. Sure, the VF-25 cost me about $50 but I am going to spend probably about 9 hours on this puppy which at the lower of my two freelance rates would be the equivalent of $360. Or if I were to commission a model maker to build the model for me it would still cost me well over $150. So when I look at it that way, I am thinking that I am getting a great deal paying $200 for an SV-51 by Yamato or a 1/48 VF-1J Milia with super parts. It is model quality, a bit sturdier and costs me less money/time than a model.

But still I wish they cost less money so that I could buy more.

Yep I also a made some kits for my friend and I`ve charged triple the amount cuz of the time it took me to make.

[VFTF1]

So here's a thought, please don't mutilate me for it;

I'm pretty sure most of you got a Movie Leader Prime [either version] or a Movie Leader Brawl from Hasbro in the past year. Nearly everybody and his mom have that Prime.

I'm not going to count electronics this time, but the thing retailed for US 40 [the asking price in Japan was US 61 or sth, though]. Now that thing has a more complex transformation [in my opinion] than the 1/48 VF-1 and the newer 1/60 VF-1. It's cheaper, more articulated and more detailed than the 1/48 valkyrie. And by detailing I do not mean accuracy to the line-art, but actual sculpting on the figure's plastic. Heck, my Universe\Henkei Powerglide has far more panel-lines, rivets and bolts sculpted on than the 1/48 I used to own.

I'm a bit tired of reading about Yamato being a young company. How long has it been, 10 years? Now surely that's about 1/5 of what Hasbro is around, but STILL, that's some years of experience in handling transforming mechanoids. The biggest laughing stock of Yamato was surely the whole VF-0 fiasco; it took them what, 1-2 years to produce a non-faulty version?

I believe the whole "not exporting their goods to the US because of HG" is also a bit old. People whine and bitch about paying 50 USD for a transformer figure or not finding it on clearance a day after release, you think they'd fork over ~180 USD per figure if they were released in the US? I'm a firm believer that whomever wants a Yamato valkyrie and is situated in the US or EU like me gets it via import. I get my transformers via importing because even after shipping they are cheaper than the shelf price here, what makes you think I'd get a Yamato valkyrie if I saw one for ~250 euros in a store?

This all comes from a fan who has handled and owned every yamato release from their 1/48 VF-1 to the 1/60 YF-19. I absolutely loved the SV-51 but that was it, I was left pretty uninterested by the rest of them. Will I get more? I'll fork over cash when they release a VF-1A Max TV version, then maybe get a Fokker to go with it.

Most of us are fans of these figures\universe of sci-fi, but have you asked somebody that may have casually handled one of these figures what they think about them? What they think about the price\what you get ratio?

Yamato also has the opportunity to milk most of these moulds dry via repaints. Only thing they had to change for the 1/48 figs was the head sculpt and colours, same thing goes for their newer ver 2.0 but this time with a remould for the two-seaters.

So in retrospect, as a transforming figure with the transformation scheme that's offered, yes, we're paying a bit too much for these figures.

Well - I am still going to defend Yamato

1. I don't have ANY movie toys. I had them, but I got rid of them about a week later. Probably had something to do with them looking nothing like the Movie characters.

2. Hasbro has indeed been around longer; but more importantly, hasbro has been engaged in the relatively easy venture of securing the rights to bring over cheap transforming japanese robot toys to the United States. They have never ever ever shown any interest whatsoever in doing something like Masterpiece Transformers - which ultimately was a Takara invention that they also ended up bringing over; albeit with worse colors (MP Prime) or cheesy colors (USA edition Starscream) and with a one or two year delay from the initial release of the MPs in Japan.

3. I am not trying to bad mouth Hasbro here - although even in the sphere of pure TFs I am a fan of Tak-Tomy's work and don't really like what Hasbr does. But of course, comparing Hasbro to Yamato is kind of meaningless, since Hasbro never endeavored to do what Yamato did - make precise, highly detailed, articulated transforming robots.

4. The majority of people who I know that have handled a Valk, but aren't Macross fans and don't actually own them all have the same reaction: a) that thing is unbelievably beautiful, b) oh my God HOW MUCH does it cost?! Most of these people - at least the ones I know - are still at the phase where spending 250 Euro for valkyrie is "crazy" while spending 1000 Euro for 50 crappy Transformers is just standard practice. To me - it is a matter of what you want out of your collection/hobby. I have nothing against people who prefer to buy tons of cheap Transformers - but it's not true that they don't spend a lot of money either.

5. I think people would fork over 180 or 200 USD for a Yamato valkyrie if it were released in the US. Why? Because they are now sold in the US through importers who charge more than that, and people buy from them. Just like I know people would pay 250 Euro for a Valkyrie because I import them and sell them here as well. Would it be great if Yamato managed to land the rights to officially export these, if Macross suddenly gained a million more fans, if the quantity produced was raised, if an official US and EU distributor was announced and if - subsequently, prices dropped by 60 to 80%? Yes. Does this mean that until this happens people aren't going to shell out for these? No.

err... there were only 400 enzos made.

I should never ever ever talk about cars. I don't even have a drivers license

Pete

[sharky]

Not necessarily. I eluded to this in my original post. There is a massive difference between “To Expensive” and “Expensive”.

“Expensive” is by all means something that is in the wallet of the beholder (nice way of putting that by the way).

“To Expensive” is defined by the market. Not one person.

I don’t know why this is such a pet peeve of mine, maybe it’s because I have been in retail for most of my working life in one form or another and I have owned a few businesses. But it drives me absolutely insane when people refer to things as “To Expensive”. Something being “To Expensive” is not up to the individual person. They don’t have the right to make that statement. I actually find it very self centered and arrogant. Where does such a person get off thinking that their single opinion trumps the opinion of the entire market for that item?

I think a better phrase would be to say something is "to expensive for me". And I think that is what most people mean when they simply say something is "to expensive". As you said, the market will decide what is simply to expensive. What is curious about some people's logic(not necessarily yours) is that it only takes one person to buy something that will justify it as not to expensive, but the same logic cannot apply when one person does not want to buy something. Something being to expensive or not is always relative to the person buying and relative to the person selling. What do I care if others can or cannot afford something. I would only care if I was the one selling.

[Vifam7]

I want to add that the price we see here in the states in terms of dollars is different from the price Japanese fans see in terms of yen. 12800yen (price of v2.0 1:60 Hikaru VF-1 w' SP) is a drop in the bucket over there. That's 2 anime DVDs over there. Each DVD containing only 2 episodes too! In Japan, paying huge amounts for HQ perfect items is the norm. Such as paying $300 for a limited-edition-made-in-Hokkaido Yubari melon.

That said, (IMHO) any toy that has a QC fault is too expensive.

[bandit29]

Wow.. comparing Ferrari to Yamato...

in a nutshell: Why are Macross Figs so expensive..small fanbase, crappy exchange rate (as of now), cost of raw materials has risen and Macross fans will over pay for just about anything Macross ...myself included

IMO Macross has always needed more middle ground toys. For awhile now, it's been high end, overpriced Yamatos or junky POS gashapon figures from CMs, Bandai etc. Maybe the new 1/100 line from Bandai will help. But even that is a bit high given the exchange rate and international shipping. IIRC the 1/100 VF-25 is around 5000 yen before shipping...

[VFTF1]

I actually don't want "middle ground" Macross toys. Toynami tried that with the 1/100 and in my personal opinion they were terrible...

And in a sense - that's not surprising. Besides; the Bandai classic Takatau mold reissues are kind of middle ground, insofar as they are more durable than the Yamatos... But... in a sense... I just can't see how you can seriously have a "middle ground" Macross figure?

What would it look like? What compromises would have to be made? Why would you want it, when you could get the nicer one?

Would you realy shell out say 49,99 for a "Leader Class" Macross figure that was quite shabby when you could buy a Yamato?

I dunno... maybe I'm extremist and going overboard (as usual:) ) ... but I get the feeling that part of what makes Macross special is that it doesn't have this middle ground thing... There's no preschool Macross line, no "kiddie Macross" line...

maybe in one sense it would help Yamato financially to do something like that - maybe it would be better not to have all your eggs in the adult collector/uber fan basket... but... I won't complain if they continue on their present course.

Pete

[sqidd]

I find it laughable that Yamato is compared to Ferrari. Ferrari exists on a different stratosphere... Yamato can barely survive each product release without one form of design or production problem or something. You just can't do that.

Clearly you don't know much about Ferrari's They have a massive ammount of problems.

[bandit29]

I actually don't want "middle ground" Macross toys. Toynami tried that with the 1/100 and in my personal opinion they were terrible...

And in a sense - that's not surprising. Besides; the Bandai classic Takatau mold reissues are kind of middle ground, insofar as they are more durable than the Yamatos... But... in a sense... I just can't see how you can seriously have a "middle ground" Macross figure?

What would it look like? What compromises would have to be made? Why would you want it, when you could get the nicer one?

Would you realy shell out say 49,99 for a "Leader Class" Macross figure that was quite shabby when you could buy a Yamato?

I dunno... maybe I'm extremist and going overboard (as usual:) ) ... but I get the feeling that part of what makes Macross special is that it doesn't have this middle ground thing... There's no preschool Macross line, no "kiddie Macross" line...

maybe in one sense it would help Yamato financially to do something like that - maybe it would be better not to have all your eggs in the adult collector/uber fan basket... but... I won't complain if they continue on their present course.

Pete

I didn't say there shouldn't be high end toys. I just think there should be more options for fans. Not everyone wants to blow US 200.00 plus on a 1/60 YF-21 for example. I've been through that "special" feeling you talk about. After awhile, that turns into "This stuff is too expensive and not worth it".

For example, NASCAR has companies that produce different grades of 1/24 die-cast cars. You have the crappy 20$, the average 60-70$, and the high end 100-150 or more 1/24 scale.

Macross is still otaku country though. That mostly means small runs and expensive products.

Toynami's junk doesn't qualify as middle ground. I have had gashapons that were made better lol

[transfan52]

Well the most obvious answer as to why valks cost so much is simply the amount of money, time and effort it takes to design and manufacture these products... A lot of hard work goes into the development process which takes thousands of man hours to do. Also many ppl in these companies are getting paid big salaries and the only way to make up for that loss is to charge sky high prices... Also manufacturing these toys is very expensive... new machines and molds have to be created for each new toy-line that is developed. Also macross valks cater to a niche market... its not like transformers that have a wide appeal around the world and can be sold easily overseas without restraint.

Last the economy right now isn't helping things either... china's manufacturing companies are in trouble and a lot of factories are laying ppl off and closing down as we speak. Those are the major factors right now why they are so expensive.

[Temjin]

Well the most obvious answer as to why valks cost so much is simply the amount of money, time and effort it takes to design and manufacture these products... A lot of hard work goes into the development process which takes thousands of man hours to do. Also many ppl in these companies are getting paid big salaries and the only way to make up for that loss is to charge sky high prices... Also manufacturing these toys is very expensive... new machines and molds have to be created for each new toy-line that is developed. Also macross valks cater to a niche market... its not like transformers that have a wide appeal around the world and can be sold easily overseas without restraint.

Last the economy right now isn't helping things either... china's manufacturing companies are in trouble and a lot of factories are laying ppl off and closing down as we speak. Those are the major factors right now why they are so expensive.

transfan52, I'm just picking on you because your post is right there.

I don't know any real fact for back myself up, but I don't think the manufacture process has anything to do with the high price. With the 3D software gets more advanced, one would think it would be easier and cheaper to design those toy compare to the old days.

Asking someone who doesn't care about anime or macross, they might have a better perspective on the true value of those toys.

[sharky]

transfan52, I'm just picking on you because your post is right there.

I don't know any real fact for back myself up, but I don't think the manufacture process has anything to do with the high price. With the 3D software gets more advanced, one would think it would be easier and cheaper to design those toy compare to the old days.

Asking someone who doesn't care about anime or macross, they might have a better perspective on the true value of those toys.

Having worked as a mechanical engineer designing various products. I can assure you that even with 3D CAD tools designing something like a Yamato valk is difficult and I am sure takes a great deal of time and effort with a team of designers. You are right in that it is easier than it used to be, but that just makes it possible to create more complex designs. Years ago something like a Yamato valk probably wouldn't have been attempted. There are just to many areas were you might have interference and fit issues to deal with unless you had some 3D design software. Refining and modifying a design through several design iterations would have been very hard to do back in the day.

As far as the manufacturing process, I am not in the toy industry, but having examined the Yamato toys I would think that there are a large number of process steps to go from raw plastic and metal to a finished painted product. Not easy by any standard.

My honest opinion is that the cost has more to do with the relatively smaller production runs. What I mean is that with a relatively smaller production run, you need to raise the price per toy to pay for the development and tooling cost. Since these are made in China, the fact that there is a ton of manual labor to put them together and paint isn't really an issue. Labor is cheap in China. The real factors deciding price are the payback schedule required for the initial capital expenses such as tooling, the total development cost, and the number of units that will be built within the acceptable payback schedule. Most US companies will figure a year or two, but it may be different in the toy industry.

Edited November 13, 2008 by sharky

[Valkyrie addict]

I have no doubt that designing, engineering and creating a perfect transformation valk is no easy or cheap task

but let's analize Yamato's situation:

1. They are not a small junior company in the making, they have over 10 years experience and growth

2. Yes, the Macross line is in Otaku hell, only hardcore fans care but, let's take the VF-1

2.1. the VF-1 is the iconic image of Macross, Yamato have experience close to 10 with the 1/60 v1 and 1/48, they KNOW how to make this valk

2.2. the 1/60 VF-1 v2 is basicly a smaller 1/48 with one or more improvement

2.3. the VF-1 has an incredible market.. there's the VF-1S Focker, VF-1S Hikki, VF-1J Hikki, VF-1J Max, VF-1J Milia, VF-1A CF, VF-1A Hikki, VF-1A Max, VF-1A Kakizaki, VF-1D, VT-1, VF-1[insert letter] Stealth, low viz, minmei guard, etc... you get the picture, in essence one mold for the body, 4 small molds for the heads... really... that's doesn't seem like a very hard production line there... I can accept a high price for something like a YF-21 that's must have been a royal pain to design thanks to anime magic and I gladly payed over 200+ and I'm happy with my YF-21, but not for a flawed VF-1

2.4 a destroid is a non transforming bulky piece of plastic, why does it cost so much? oh, it's very articulate, so is a GNU-doi, and it's not even tampoed

3. Macross is not the only anime or toy line Yamato produces, they have numerous other lines that are giving them money, some people here make it sound like Yamato depend solely on people buying their macross toys which I highly doubt

4. The damn things keep breaking...you can tell me all the excuses in the world about Yamato, how it akes them several years to design, how expensive it is to pay their executive ninjas, how expensive it is to do R&D to create a new valk, to clean their shiny gold toilets, whatever...in the end, something failed and I hold in my hand broken toys, maybe they went cheap and used cheaper materials to save on production costs, or they didn't know that X bran plastic will not support a given amount of tension, so in the end... their engineering was flawd, their research was not complete for not knowing it was the right plastic, the production was incompetent for using cheaper products and the QC is questionable but the price is always a 3 digit figure

5. I don't care if Yamato gives a free repair or spare parts in japan and that I took the risk of buying something overseas with no warranty, in the end, this spare parts free repair are an added cost to the company if they had done their homework right from the first place they wouldn't have to do this

sorry for the long post...I was venting, having a bad day

[boota]

Talking about Yamato and quality is always a bad day.

[Queen Kittan]

Economics 101. Supply and Demand.

Supply and Demand Theory

Because you can’t afford something doesn’t make it “Too expensive”. If it cost more than what it was worth then it would be too expensive. And obviously it doesn’t cost more than it’s worth. If that was true everyone on this board wouldn’t be buying them. Something is worth as much as someone will pay for it.

Don’t “cheapen” the product because you can’t afford to buy one. Is a Ferrari Enzo “Too expensive”? It’s more than I can afford, but I would never call it too expensive. And they are clearly not too expensive because every one they have ever made sold instantly.

ffff this attitude made me range. Kind of what farted up the world economy to begin with.

9/10.

[Queen Kittan]

in the end....business is business

we have very few companies supplying us with Macross items and they don't compete each other and the consumer continues to buy their products, if this companies have seen that their product will see at the price they stablish as a benchmark when they started producing their first Macross items they have no reason to change

monkey see, monkey do...

either way, we the consumer are stuck with ugly chunky or exploding toys that costs more than they should...I can pay for each an every one of this toys easily but I don't want too, cause I keep feeling getting ripped off more and more

Everyone is making Macross figs at the moment though Kaiyodo, Bandai, Yamato, etc.

[Queen Kittan]

Not necessarily. I eluded to this in my original post. There is a massive difference between “To Expensive” and “Expensive”.

“Expensive” is by all means something that is in the wallet of the beholder (nice way of putting that by the way).

“To Expensive” is defined by the market. Not one person.

I don’t know why this is such a pet peeve of mine, maybe it’s because I have been in retail for most of my working life in one form or another and I have owned a few businesses. But it drives me absolutely insane when people refer to things as “To Expensive”. Something being “To Expensive” is not up to the individual person. They don’t have the right to make that statement. I actually find it very self centered and arrogant. Where does such a person get off thinking that their single opinion trumps the opinion of the entire market for that item?

I think this is nonsense because it makes it far too easy to inflate prices beyond their worth.

Yes, I do get to say what's "too expensive", not some overly capitalistic system run by sleezeballs in suits.

The fact is that supply and demand are different either way for items at different price. An item at a cheaper price becomes a very diferent item to the same product at a more expensive price.

The DEMAND for Macross figures at a cheaper price is probably higher than you think, it's just nobody's really tested the market with them. The success of Kaiyodo's revoltech Macross figures however would suggest it's quite high.

Prices should reflect the resources that go into them. Overly inflated "arteest" prices are one of the big causes of people spending beyond their means, plonking down unnecessary amounts for things that shouldn't cost as much as they do. The market rulers, the corporate bigwigs, are the ones determining prices.

The fact is that cheaper items in of themselves sell more so often you're making more or less the same amount of money regardless of price - people generally have a set amount they'll actually spend on Macross figures for example. Now, of course, there is a scenario where this won't hold as I said, and that's when people end up spending beyond their means - which is one of the biggest causes of the global economic down turn. The vicious form of capitalism spearheaded by the west, with it's artificial money(currency was untied from gold in the late 70s as an experiment) is what drives up prices of things like relatively simple transforming toys.

Things should better reflect the resources to go in them because it makes sense. When things are more tied to resources, corporate hounds can't draw capital out of the common man's pocket to the same degree since they're only charging for what's there. Of course, that's relying too much on business men to be kind, but at the end of the day, they're farting their own economy over doing what they do. Overpriced goods are a short term solution, not a long term one. In the long term economies break down when they're based on imaginary trust.

The only really to inflate prices is if the figures are in a smaller run(which will be more expensive anyway because of the cost of the injection mould process). There the supply is genuinely quite limited - whereas with Macross figures there's such a wide fanbase there's a lot of demand, and there's no real resource limitation on supply - look at how common Transformers are here.

A lot of people who talk about Supply and Demand have read a few economics books, been involved with business but haven't given much thought to the practicality at the end of the little guy.

Most toy companies, especially western ones like Hasbro, usually aren't all that in touch with their markets anyway.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Queen Kittan

[Roger]

The DEMAND for Macross figures at a cheaper price is probably higher than you think, it's just nobody's really tested the market with them. The success of Kaiyodo's revoltech Macross figures however would suggest it's quite high.

What, exactly, are you basing this opinion on? What data do you have to represent "success" and "demand"?

[Queen Kittan]

The success of Kaiyodo's revoltech Macross figures however would suggest it's quite high.

Um, this maybe?

If Revoltech and GNU-Dou are both making Valkyries(not to mention Bandai's Robot Spirits) then obviously there is a large market for lower end figures. There are however no simple transforming figures for an equivalent price of the revoltech. I shouldn't need to prove there's a market for cheap transforming toys, Transformers Henkei seems to be doin' fine.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Queen Kittan

[Roger]

I'd like to know what you think "large" is.

How many Revoltech YF-19s were manufactured, and how many were actually sold? And what was the cost to make each one vs. the wholesale and retail price?

Can anyone in this thread answer questions like these?

[Queen Kittan]

If they weren't popular they wouldn't continue to make them basically, and there definitely wouldn't be 3 companies making lower end Macross figs, the problem is there's no lower end transforming macross figs.

[ntsan]

If they weren't popular they wouldn't continue to make them basically, and there definitely wouldn't be 3 companies making lower end Macross figs, the problem is there's no lower end transforming macross figs.

Well you forgot about Toynami and Banpresto.. cheap quality at cheap price!

[transfan52]

I think some ppl have a misconception of why transformers are so much cheaper then a valk... Sure I admit there's a larger market and wider appeal for transformers but have you ever bought the recent transformers toys you can get at walmart for 20 or less? They're made with the cheapest of materials and probly have lead paint applied on them... I left my animated bumblebee figure in my car in the middle of summer time when it was 100 degrees farenheit... You know what happened to the toy? It got cooked and literally messed up the plastic and deformed to entire toy! I'm sure if I left a yamato valk in the blazing sun it wouldn't be as bad. Although more expensive yamato valks tend to have better materials for plastic and overall better construction... There are exceptions though with some qc issues but for the most part they're better in quality in almost every way.

[mr.chogokin]

Let's not get ahead of yourself. Just because Yamato charges you more doesn't mean you won't get a melty Valkyrie sweating sticky substances after a similar exposure. If anything, you're not as carefree with a valkyrie as you would with a Bumble bee.

I look at Transformers and the Yamato Valkyries the same because they're Plastic, Plastic, Plastic. If you say they're different grades of plastic, I'd say let's put them out to the summer heat and see.

If we generally consider Takara cheaper just because they're huge and sell vast quantities, why should we spare Yamato that benefit of doubt?

And if Yamato really does manufacture small qtys... the QC misses and the design faults actually compound their predicament and confirms them as really incompetent of their ambition.

[VFTF1]

I think this is nonsense because it makes it far too easy to inflate prices beyond their worth.

Yes, I do get to say what's "too expensive", not some overly capitalistic system run by sleezeballs in suits.

The fact is that supply and demand are different either way for items at different price. An item at a cheaper price becomes a very diferent item to the same product at a more expensive price.

The DEMAND for Macross figures at a cheaper price is probably higher than you think, it's just nobody's really tested the market with them. The success of Kaiyodo's revoltech Macross figures however would suggest it's quite high.

Prices should reflect the resources that go into them. Overly inflated "arteest" prices are one of the big causes of people spending beyond their means, plonking down unnecessary amounts for things that shouldn't cost as much as they do. The market rulers, the corporate bigwigs, are the ones determining prices.

The fact is that cheaper items in of themselves sell more so often you're making more or less the same amount of money regardless of price - people generally have a set amount they'll actually spend on Macross figures for example. Now, of course, there is a scenario where this won't hold as I said, and that's when people end up spending beyond their means - which is one of the biggest causes of the global economic down turn. The vicious form of capitalism spearheaded by the west, with it's artificial money(currency was untied from gold in the late 70s as an experiment) is what drives up prices of things like relatively simple transforming toys.

Things should better reflect the resources to go in them because it makes sense. When things are more tied to resources, corporate hounds can't draw capital out of the common man's pocket to the same degree since they're only charging for what's there. Of course, that's relying too much on business men to be kind, but at the end of the day, they're farting their own economy over doing what they do. Overpriced goods are a short term solution, not a long term one. In the long term economies break down when they're based on imaginary trust.

The only really to inflate prices is if the figures are in a smaller run(which will be more expensive anyway because of the cost of the injection mould process). There the supply is genuinely quite limited - whereas with Macross figures there's such a wide fanbase there's a lot of demand, and there's no real resource limitation on supply - look at how common Transformers are here.

A lot of people who talk about Supply and Demand have read a few economics books, been involved with business but haven't given much thought to the practicality at the end of the little guy.

Most toy companies, especially western ones like Hasbro, usually aren't all that in touch with their markets anyway.

I agree with you about artificial, non-gold based money causing all of the problems, and you are correct to pinpoint the Bretton Woods agreement of 1973. And of course, to the extent that numerous corporations entered into cahoots with government to "free" money from gold and therefore make the federal reserve into their own personal printing press of last resort (which it has become, as the latest bailout for the big guys shows) - then yes - you are right in your scorn of corporations as well.

But in talking about inflated prices due to flaws in the monetary system, you cannot single out Yamato and say that their valkyrie have inflated prices. Price inflation that is caused by bad monetary policy affects ALL prices, even those which we consider to be nominally "low" or "reasonable." Monetary inflation cuts across the board, and it doesn't have anything to do with people who happen to charge more because they think that their product is artsy.

Secondly; costs, like benefits, are in the eye of the beholder. Should antiques, for instance, or Piccasso paintings, be priced ONLY with regard to the cost that went into making them? That is absurd. Valuation in the market is totally subjective; and for those of us who truly do believe that Yamatos are minor works of art and prize possessions, their pricing is not insane at all.

Third, as I mentioned prior - even if we do agree that the Yamato valkyrie are excessively priced; that is to say that the profit margin is HUGE (which I highly doubt), then this is still good for consumers; because huge profit margins serve as signals to other firms that they should also enter the market and gobble up some of those profits.

The more firms enter the market, the more innovation, price competition and other benefits for consumers appear.

And finally: when you say that there is a higher demand for cheaper items then we think, you simply demonstrate that you do not fully grasp basic supply and demand theory.

Please note that of course, the lower the price of something, the higher the demand. That is the nature of the demand curve - it ALWAYS looks like that.

But the market price exists where supply meets demand - that is; at the point where it is possible to provide X amount of goods at price Y. To shift this point, you would either have to shift demand, or shift supply. In order to shift supply, you need technological innovation. In order to have technological innovation, you need a profit margin that invites it. In order to shift demand, you would need either more or better marketing, or the type of artificial monetary injections that you rightly protested against in your post. In either case; the effect of a real shift towards higher demand would ultimately be a shift towards higher supply as well, and likely more innovation.

Having said all of that, I think it is a testimony to how hard Yamato have worked and how successfull they have been that in an age of economic stagflation, dwindling profit margins, dwindling consumer demand, and credit crisis, they have been able to bring us what is surely a masterpiece at such relatively low prices; and that the market is advanced enough that even if you live thousands of miles away, you too can have one of these Yamato valkyrie within the space of a few days.

Pete

[sharky]

Prices should reflect the resources that go into them. Overly inflated "arteest" prices are one of the big causes of people spending beyond their means, plonking down unnecessary amounts for things that shouldn't cost as much as they do. The market rulers, the corporate bigwigs, are the ones determining prices.

You can't blame Yamato for people spending more than they can afford. If a person spends more than they can afford they have no one to blame but themselves.

The price of a Yamato valk should be whatever Yamato wants it to be. If they want to be greedy and make more money it is in their right to do so. It is our right to buy or not buy based on the price.

It's simple. If someone is unhappy with the prices Yamato charges then DON'T BUY THEM. If enough people agree, then they will see a decline in sales and will need to re-think their pricing structure or get out of the valk business altogether. Doesn't look to me that Yamato will be stopping anytime soon, so there you have it. The market does decide if something is too expensive. One person refusing to buy something due to a high price is not enough.

I can't understand how people can b**ch about things that are to expensive. If you want something you can't afford then figure out a way to make more money, or save for it like everybody else. What is not productive is whining about the price of things and whining how you can't afford it. (not directed at Queen Kittan or anyone in particular).

Edited November 18, 2008 by sharky

[Roger]

I can't understand how people can b**ch about things that are to expensive. If you want something you can't afford then figure out a way to make more money, or save for it like everybody else. What is not productive is whining about the price of things and whining how you can't afford it. (not directed at Queen Kittan or anyone in particular).

Because one of the defining characteristics of fanboi-ism is an inflated sense of entitlement and a tendency to run off at the mouth. Pretty simple.

[boota]

So it's always the consumers in general whose at fault when they can't afford stuff or find them too expensive, huh? Let's not forget... conflicted as the Macross fanbase maybe, the same customers who b1tch & whine about the prices, also buy the stuff. Without that sense of entitlement, companies like Yamato can eat poo.

As for the tendency for customers to run off at the mouth, Yamato should give mufflers as GWP with their valks - even simpler.

[VFTF1]

So it's always the consumers in general whose at fault when they can't afford stuff or find them too expensive, huh? Let's not forget... conflicted as the Macross fanbase maybe, the same customers who b1tch & whine about the prices, also buy the stuff. Without that sense of entitlement, companies like Yamato can eat poo.

I think it just isn't correct to use terminology like "fault." The idea that a price is some person or some group of people's "fault" - at least in the realm of micro-economics, is off kelter. In macro-economics; we can indeed say - as others have argued above - that a certain group is at fault for a general macroeconomic tendencies. Doing so, all we are saying is that we think certain monetary or fiscal policies have led to certain general economic results.

However, in the realm of micro-economics; when discussing a particular firm and its' particular market, no one is "at fault." You might as well say that God or the Universe or fate are "at fault" because of scarcity which is, after all, the basic condition making economic calculation a necessary part of human existence.

Also - remember that the market is always in flux: prices are not rigid; they are forever changing depending on conditions. Also, prices are signals. As I noted earlier; high prices, "expensive" or "too expensive" items, are all signals to firms that there exists a lucrative market to enter - and by entering it, they will inevitably drive prices down through either direct price competition or through innovation.

The reason why I always am alarmed when people complain with a sense of entitlement about prices being "too high" is for the same reason I would be alarmed when corporations and producers suddenly complained to government that "prices are too low" (aka "stock prices are too low, please give me a bail out).

Prices are always signals about where supply and demand are going - they reflect what you and me and everyone else basically wants and can give. When people start complaining about them due to a sense of entitelement, this usually ends in prices being artificially fixed at a low or high rate, or in someone getting a bailout.

All this does is make adjustments in the market impossible; it makes it impossible for producers and consumers to see reality and to adjust to reality; and prolongs crisis.

That's why a sense of entitlment is, in my opinion, a bad sense. In practice, having a sense of entitlement actually makes it more difficult for you to get what you want.

For example: what if, when Yamato came out with its' version 1 VF-1 at the 1/60 scale, everyone said "NO! We are NOT buying this for 100 USD! Not for 80 USD! NO NO NO!" And what if, indeed, driven by a sense of entitlement, no one bought at those prices. Retailers made no orders. Yamato finally bowed to reality and sold the VF-1s at...say...5 USD to retailers who, after adding on all of their respective costs and fees, sold it to us for say...10 USD.

And then what? Do you seriously think that Yamato would have concluded - hey - that went well. Let's get to work on a 1/48 scale perfect transformation fighter? More than likely they would have concluded that the market interest in Macross is limited to a small group of people unwilling to spend more than 10 USD on a Macross product - and they would never have given us what we have today.

Thankfully, the market doesn't work that way. Believe it or not, but demand does exist for Macross products of high quality at the current price range. There might be some people who do not buy, or buy less than they otherwise would have due to QC or price concerns - and of course Yamato, like any company that wants to expand, is going to have to address those concerns.

Nevertheless, it is more productive to be concrete: Yamato - fix your QC! Yamato - make more line-art accurate fighters etc etc than to just complain "the price is too expensive!" because Yamato will NEVER LISTEN TO THAT COMPLAINT.

I should know: I get tons of people complaining that my prices are too high, that my prices are insane, that my prices are terrible. I also then get people who just buy things. When I put products in my store on sale, I notice something interesting: if I cut prices by 25% - heck even 50% my sales DO NOT GO UP. (I don't mean the money I take in, but literally items that just sell). Product does not move, no matter how much I slash prices. Product moves at its' own pace at normal prices.

What does this tell me? It tells me that the market is divided into two groups: reasonable people who look at my price and say "dag; that's high - but ...hmm...if I were to try to buy this thing on my own, I'd end up paying more because of a number of factors" and then the "entitelment group." The entitelment group yells alot about prices being too high; but when you lower them or have a sale - this group doesn't suddenly dish out loads of cash to buy your stuff. In fact, these people resent you for not maintaining sale prices all the time. I've even had people who just see themselves as "representatives of the consumer" - even though they...never consume anything at my store...but they are always complaining, writing on forums about prices being too high and so on and so forth and so on.

Of course, everyone has the right to have their own opinion; and in criticizing this "entitelement" mentality I am not saying that it should "go away." It should stay; just like all other opinions - I'm sure it has some merit sometimes. Still, this is pretty much how I view the matter.

Peter

Edited November 19, 2008 by VFTF1