1/72 Bandai VF-25F Messiah build-up step-by-step (sort of)

[Cent]

wow that gunpod is awesome wm. Are you just using acrylic clears for clearcoats or something else? Would it be better to try and clear coat the parts individually rather than as a built fighter mode? Sorry if you've already mentioned it and I missed it.

[mickyg]

sweet... does anyone know what other brand works similar like future? been looking for this product in malaysia but couldn't find one....

Try Googling "the complete future" and you'll find all kinds of information about what it is, how it works and what it's called in other countries. You might need to experiment a little though. Some behave quite differently to Future.

[PetarB]

Tell me about it. There's an Aussie version that Swanny's site says is equivalent, and while it's not bad... it's not too good either.

In anycase, that finish on the gunpod is fantastic... and very anime. That's not like you, wmcheng!

[big F]

Tell me about it. There's an Aussie version that Swanny's site says is equivalent, and while it's not bad... it's not too good either.

In anycase, that finish on the gunpod is fantastic... and very anime. That's not like you, wmcheng!

With the whole issue of Future not being available in Oz why dosent someone import it ?

Spoke to my Cousin about it and she lives in Sydney, Maybe I should send her a crate of it from the wholesalers and let her pimp it out to you guys.

[shinagami]

WM Cheng, i bought an alclad 'steel' paint n tried air-brush it on my vf-1S gunpod. the outcome wasn't appealing enough for something which should look like steel....any tips or suggestion?

[David Hingtgen]

Did you apply it over gloss black? Alclad is not a 1-step process, it's VERY sensitive to what it is applied on top of.

[shinagami]

i applied the alclad on a flat black base coat.....hmmmm, will try again on a glossy black surface. thanks

[Lolicon]

Does wm cheng or anyone else here know a good method for painting all the red tips for the micromissiles at the same time on the Armored VF-25? It's going to be quite trying sitting there and painting each missile by hand, one by one.

[wm cheng]

I actually didn't apply it over any base coat (although they recommend it). The undersurface needs to be smooth, the more glass-like, the better the metal effect in the end. I often take shortcuts like not doing any basecoat if the plastic is smooth and I hadn't sanded the part - but unfortunately the plastic swirl did telegraph though, so I will undercoat it next time. The gloss black is only really needed with the bright polished aluminum or chrome - the other darker colours you can get away with just a good smooth undercoat, but never on a flat/matte surface since flat/matte is actually microscopically bumpy.

Nope I don't know of a way to paint all the missile tips red easily, I was hoping someone would come up with a better way than painting each one. Maybe dipping? I don't know, any tips would be appreciated!

[David Hingtgen]

Yeah---it doesn't specifically need to be *gloss black*, but it does need to be smooth and shiny----and gloss black is generally the easiest way to achieve that. Flat black would be about the worst choice.

I personally prefer bare plastic for most metallic paint, assuming it's the smooth and shiny plastic like Hasegawa, and not the "orange peel" plastic that Italeri and Revell often have.

[shiroikaze]

how about dabbing or pressing with a sponge or piece of flat paper?

[mickyg]

The sponge approach would be my recommendation as well. I've tried it on a few other small parts and it should work. The only thing to watch out for is making sure your paint doesn't go "frothy" like mine did. I think it's better to use a less thinned paint with this approach, so you also have to work fast.

[mickyg]

WM, hope you don't mind me asking a general question regarding your methods on all your builds. I'm doing my Michael Custom (25G) and just had a nightmare experience with clearcoating on the sniper rifle. I used a flat clearcoat (Testors Dull Cote - lacquer) and had great results. I then decided I wanted a gloss coat over the top, to give me the best chance of wiping off the oil wash I haven't applied yet. I went for an automotive acrylic gloss spray but one that's lacquer based as well. I figured it'd be pretty close to the model master acryl clears you use for your builds (it's the stuff in the bottle, right?). So anyway, the gloss went on fine and looked OK while it was wet but when it dried, it got all wrinkly. It looks terrible and I fear I've ruined the gun. Short of sanding it back or trying a thicker 2nd gloss coat (which will likely ruin the panel lines), I'm not sure what to do.

Any comments on how this is supposed to work, what I might have done wrong and how I can prevent this from happening in the future with the rest of the model? Oh and specifically, what do you use to thin your MM acrylic lacquer clear coats? I've got industrial strength lacquer thinner but it's so volatile that It can melt plastic. I'm thinking this is not the stuff to use for thinning a clear coat!

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions!

[wm cheng]

Sorry to hear about that Mickyg,

I think the automotive gloss coat was too "hot" and may have ate your dullcote a bit. You have to be very careful when mixing paint types. Acrylics are usually water based paints and are the most gentle to the plastic, as such, it merely sits on top and is the most fragile and can be easily scraped off. Isopropo (sp.) alchohol is usually a good thinner/solvent for acrylics. Then comes enamels, these are solvent based and you use emamel solvents to thin or clean them. Lastly are lacquers, these are the most "hot" (meaning they are the most reactive and have a tendency to eat away or slightly melt the surface that they are sprayed on - because they "etch" into the underlying surface, they are the most durable - impossible to get off without sanding, but thats whats great about them, they can be sanded down to feather an edge for seam removal, thats why primers are usually lacquers). There are lacquer thinners/solvents out there, but most will probably eat away at the plastic styrene as well. Automotive lacquers are by far the worst of the bunch by several magnitudes since they have to endure the harsh environment and resist fading in the sun and cracking in the cold - they are made to not be removeable.

You have to be very careful when mixing paint types. I never use automotive paints on models - just too harsh. Just try to stick to hobby paints, there are so many different types, there really is no need to go outside for any colour unless its some special effect you're trying to achieve. Once you have an understanding of the reactive qualities of the paint types you can purposely mix them to achieve layers that "seal" each other in and protect each other. I usually use Tamiya Acrylics, they are the most mild and are completely inert, they do not react to the plastic at all. I like them because they don't smell and are easy to clean up - but they are fragile and scrapes off easily. I then usually seal them in with the Model Master Acryl clear-coats. Again, they are acrylics (hence "Acryl") not the lacquer line, but these arcylics are just different enough that the Tamiya solvent or Windex (which I use as a cheap solvent due to the ammonia content) doesn't seem to affect the MM Acryl clear-coats. So I use it as a stop-barrier to seal in steps of painting that I like - so I can experiment with other layers on top and if I don't like it or it doesn't turn out as expected, I just strip it down using the solvent/windex to the last layer of clear-coat with all the previous layers of paint beneath the clear coat intact. The artist oil wash uses again a different solvent (low-odour varsol) so it wipes away easily without affecting the underlying clear-coat. I only use lacquers for priming so I can sand it or Aclad metalizers since there is nothing else like it.

So what to do now. See if you can find a solvent for that automotive paint you used, then try it out on a piece of sprue to make sure it won't eat the plastic. If a solvent exists that will remove the automotive paint you used BUT not eat the plastic then you're laughing - chalk it up to a learning experience. Believe you me, I've had all sorts of funny paint mixtures effects in my build experience. Definitely do not add more paint!

p.s. Generally always leave a flat/matte clear-coat till the very end, flat finishes are microscopically bumpy, when you clear-coat over it will a gloss coat, it needs to be fairly thick to fill in all the bumps to make something glossy (its the smoothness of the coating that reflects the light) - I usually try for a semi-gloss first since it resist fingerprints, then go glossy for the decals, the flat for the final finish if that's the desired sheen.

Always try to use the right solvents for the right paints and try to stick to modelling paints. I tried experimenting in the past with alternatives, it just isn't worth it in the end - think about how many hours of effort you put into the model, you don't want to ruin it trying to save a few bucks. (some stuff doesn't ruin your work till a few months or years down the road!) I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the right job!

[mickyg]

Thanks so much for your thoughts and advice!

You should pop over to my build thread some time. You might recognise some of my methods. Most of what I'm doing you're directly responsible for!

Yeah, automotive is now out of the question for me! I've purchased some Model Master clears but they're all lacquer based. I guess I assumed when you said your MM acryls were lacquer that it meant I could buy the lacquers and be OK. Now I'm not so sure. As for the finish I have with the wrinkled paint, I might try to lightly sand the really offending parts and live with the rest of it. It's bad but not so much so that I can't still appreciate the gun and colours I've used.

[Zinjo]

I was just going to call the plane finished when I realized that I forgot those yellow/orange sensor thingys on the wing roots (again!) - oh well, I see if I can try to hand paint those later when I work on the gunpod.

Ok, so the canopy is finally on!! YAY! Here's some shots after the white shading and subsequent clear coats. Its 90% there! Argh, this has been a long haul.

Dude, I so can 't wait for your hires beauty shots when this baby is done!

I am such a fan of your work...

Edited September 11, 2009 by Zinjo

[Archer]

So, I know it has been a few years (I think 2?) since the last post in this thread, but I was really wondering as to whether this project was ever fully completed by WM Cheng, and if it was, if there were any pictures of the fully completed kit?

Does anyone know Oo?

TIA

[Gatsu]

WM cheng your work is just terrific. i don't understand how have u been able to assemble the kit a first time without painting it for observing all the possible issues and disassembling it without breaking any part or peg in the process. Before painting my vf-1 i tried a preliminary assembly but i realised i wouldn t have been able to disassemble it witout risk of breaking some parts...

Also: can you explain clearly every single different metallic color you used on it? I used the steel alclad laquer and it looks great but i have also the gun metal and jet exhaust and they are terrible, jet exhaust is simply a normal black, and gun metal is a lightly violet black with a bad look.

[mickyg]

Hi Gatsu, I'm not WM but I can help with the question regarding how to disassemble. I hope WM doesn't mind my jumping in.

Most of the process involves cutting a diagonal piece out of the pegs that find into the holes. For round pegs, you simply use your clippers to slice a side of the peg off at an angle. You end up with something that's still round on at least half the sides, so it still fits. But the payoff is that it doesn't fit so crazy tight as before.

The same can be done with the square pegs that fit into slots. Just cut part of it off so it still aligns but doesn't fit with quite so much surface area.

In cases where neither of the above are possible, you can also cut a relief into the holes themselves. Just cut a slot into one side of the wall on a hole and that'll allow it to flex when you pull it apart.

Hope that helps.

I'll let the master of metallics answer the rest regarding alclad. I've got some experience but nowhere near the level he does.

[Gatsu]

Hi Gatsu, I'm not WM but I can help with the question regarding how to disassemble. I hope WM doesn't mind my jumping in.

Most of the process involves cutting a diagonal piece out of the pegs that find into the holes. For round pegs, you simply use your clippers to slice a side of the peg off at an angle. You end up with something that's still round on at least half the sides, so it still fits. But the payoff is that it doesn't fit so crazy tight as before.

The same can be done with the square pegs that fit into slots. Just cut part of it off so it still aligns but doesn't fit with quite so much surface area.

In cases where neither of the above are possible, you can also cut a relief into the holes themselves. Just cut a slot into one side of the wall on a hole and that'll allow it to flex when you pull it apart.

Hope that helps.

I'll let the master of metallics answer the rest regarding alclad. I've got some experience but nowhere near the level he does.

Thanks for the response Mick.. i find what you suggest quite scary because i do not cement everything and still i need some friction that keep the model stable after the model is finished, just to keep transformation and posabillity unaltered...

[wm cheng]

WM cheng your work is just terrific. i don't understand how have u been able to assemble the kit a first time without painting it for observing all the possible issues and disassembling it without breaking any part or peg in the process. Before painting my vf-1 i tried a preliminary assembly but i realised i wouldn t have been able to disassemble it witout risk of breaking some parts...

Also: can you explain clearly every single different metallic color you used on it? I used the steel alclad laquer and it looks great but i have also the gun metal and jet exhaust and they are terrible, jet exhaust is simply a normal black, and gun metal is a lightly violet black with a bad look.

Thanks Gatsu for all your kudos!

Alclad has since changed their Steel colour - when I did this model, it was their old steel which is much lighter and smoother. I have since gone through about 4 bottles of their new "steel" hoping that I just got a bad batch, but the newer steel is darker and more "speckly" than the old steel. Unfortunately, its just not as good. Jet exhaust is really dark, not black, but I just use it to rim the edges of the thrusters lightly, so the metallic underneath shows through and it creates a great "burnt" look. I don't think its meant to be used by itself, its quite dark as you have said. My gun metal is also quite dark, but I don't see the light violet colour you mentioned - it could be a bad batch. All the Alclads go on really thin, so surface prep is everything with metallics. On the VF-25, I also overlaid the Steel with Tamiya Yellow Clear to give it a bronzy brown tint because he's the only VF-25 that has "brown" shoes. I have a bunch of the Alcalds ranging from Polished Aluminum, Stainless Steel (bluish), DurAluminum, Dark Aluminum, Magnesium, Steel, Jet Exhaust and Gun Metal, sometimes I mix and match them to get the shade I want - sometimes I clear coat them to get a tint or metallic colour I want such as the purple gun pod. Hope that helps, just practice and practice, that's what I did and you'll get the hang of it.

I just looked this site up: http://alclad2.com/how-to/

Lots of really good tips I wished I knew before I tried and learned my way around Alclad by trial and error (before the internet days!)

Edited September 19, 2016 by wm cheng

[NZEOD]

just dont.... DONT... leave a bottle of Alclad next to your airbrush line with the cap off... its makes an expensive mess when you knock it over... twice now!

I use Pale Burnt metal as my base then moving to Exhaust Manifold towards the tips and all over the inside on the nozzles with Jet Exhaust on the very tips. I've also added extra ball bearings to those bottles to ensure they are TOTALLY mixed before decanting any.

My Steel also looks like speckled crap and the Gun Metal isnt so crash hot either.

There is also a Hot Metal Blue and a Hot Metal Purple which I'm still learning to use. Its a clear coat you add to the exhausts etc to show metal heat stress and blueing.

Edited September 19, 2016 by NZEOD

[Darth Mingus]

I concur with NZEOD. Spilled 1/2 a bottle of Duraluminum yesterday...

[Gatsu]

This new forum sucks! Where are all the pics??

[Gatsu]

Seriously, is who updated this forum going to restore all the pics in the thread or do you intend to wait that every user do it??

[NZEOD]

Wow, your attitude sucks big time!

Its the holidays and Shawn has a family same as anyone else.

Its a major job to transfer everything over and restore the formatting so relax and give him time to do it AND enjoy his break.

 

And a point to remember... he's not getting paid by you or anyone else to do this.

[sketchley]

I think it would be more constructive to make a post in the bug thread that Shawn created after moving.  Specifically - this topic is the first one I've come across after the move where the pictures are appearing as links

Eg: the picts in this topic, both before and after the move are appearing: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?/topic/35120-whats-lying-on-your-workbench-mk-iv/&page=130

Cheers.

[Gatsu]

Nzeod. i simply pointed out that there was a big problem after the Forum update and that i hoped they were not going to leave us to re-upload every single pic in the threads. I used the word "sucks" but i didn t offended anybody, well at least i suppose we are not children that get offended if you criticize their favourited toy or something like that, it's just a forum graphic interface, for god's sake. Personally, i have no idea who makes this upgrade, or how many people did it, 1 or 10 people, nor how much time it took to do it, 30 minutes or 1 day, or how long it takes to restore all the pics, for what i know about this things it could be done from the "updater" with a click... neither i need to know all these things, i'm not a webmaster. But i m sincerely tired of your reactions to my posts, you get offended as easily as people get bitten by mosquitos...

[Gatsu]

On 31/12/2016 at 5:08 AM, sketchley said:

I think it would be more constructive to make a post in the bug thread that Shawn created after moving.  Specifically - this topic is the first one I've come across after the move where the pictures are appearing as links

Eg: the picts in this topic, both before and after the move are appearing: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?/topic/35120-whats-lying-on-your-workbench-mk-iv/&page=130

Cheers.

Well sincerely i didn t check all threads in the forum but it seems to me that a lot of threads have this problem, if not all of them...

[big F]

Not wanting to derail this great thread anymore but didn't we have something similar with one of the major forum updates a few years ago? IIRC it was just down to a few adjustments,  likely these will get sorted when the site formatting is adjusted to work on the new set up.

it looks like some off site picture hosts are working and some are not, normal service will resume shortly.

Edited January 1, 2017 by big F

[NZEOD]

On ‎2‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 4:50 AM, Gatsu said:

But i m sincerely tired of your reactions to my posts, you get offended as easily as people get bitten by mosquitos...

There is a clear and obvious reason for that but we can save that for a PM if you like.

[sketchley]

On 2017/1/2 at 5:12 AM, big F said:

Not wanting to derail this great thread anymore but didn't we have something similar with one of the major forum updates a few years ago? IIRC it was just down to a few adjustments,  likely these will get sorted when the site formatting is adjusted to work on the new set up.

it looks like some off site picture hosts are working and some are not, normal service will resume shortly.

I think it boils down to everything posted after that major update works with this upgrade, and everything before that not working.  So, the problem is from Invision behaving like Microsoft, and not making their product backwards compatible for more than one previous generation.

[Shawn]

If anyone has problems with anything in the forums after the upgrade, I ask that you please post them to the feedback link I have pinned in he Member Feedback area of the board.

I was unaware of this problem in this thread, as most of the posts seemed to converted correctly when I spot check.

The problem is that some of the thumbnails apparently did not build correctly, so I will re-build them tonight and we'll see if that fixes it.

I'll post updates for this issue in that feedback thread.

Thank you
Shawn

 

 

[NZEOD]

you can still click on them and see the images so its not a major issue

[Gatsu]

I didn't notice it.