Integration/Diplomatic relations in the Macross Universe

[Einherjar]

One of the things that surprised me about Macross Frontier was how dark certain parts of humanity had become. Political backstabbing, prejudice, and corruption still exists even after the near extinction of humanity. Not sure if it can be called evil or justified to protect the species, but it's different seeing even a small part of the population making the same mistakes as our recent history. For the most part, relations with humanoids like the Zentradi are slowly progressing, with old prejudices and the occasional bout of Kamjinitis still lingering. However, with aliens like the Vajra we still have a long way to go, especially with communicating and perhaps co-existence (sorry, wasn't exactly sure what happened to them in the ending). And it doesn't help that factions are willing to enslave an entire species or driven by greed to screw things up for everyone else.

So after fifty years have since the end of Space War I, how do you think we've been doing with dealing with alien species?

[RedWolf]

Zentradi were easy to intergrate because they were basically giant humans. But humans nontheless genetically speaking.

The NUN managed even to integrate another miclone race to their government, Zolans.

But you have a point of the problem with non-humanoid races.

The intelligence of Space Whales and Vajra would not have been confirmed if not for a couple of singers.

Some in the old generation may hold grudges but they are dying out. At the rate of inter-racial marriage nobody can say they are pure blooded humans or Zentrans.

Some like Quamin and Col. Bacelon may see the benefits of culture but they would prefer a more militaristic culture. Kinda like Spartans.

[Killer Robot]

I don't know if I can call relations with the Zentradi really regressing simply because there hasn't been much view of there ever being perfect peace and harmony in integrating them with human culture. The second story arc of SDFM was all about how while many of them were happy to be civilians and many were having trouble adjusting. After that? Macross Plus had not a touch of the issue apart from Guld's pointy ears and anger management issues: one like me who started the series there just wouldn't understand what that whole alien assimilation thing was all about until seeing more. Macross 7 barely mentioned Zentradi: other than the ones that appeared once to play in the movie and the ones that appeared once to storm the Mayor's office to show how Protodeviln drive Zentradi insane, you could have watched it and never known there were any in the fleet apart from Milia and Exedol: maybe they were a small enough minority to simply not be an issue. Dynamite and Zolan? I don't know what to say about that other than wishing that an encounter with the first established alien race other than the Zentradi had been handled with more depth, rather than something I could have mistaken for another Earth colony had the people not had two-tone hair and furry arms. Maybe there are secondary materials I don't know much about, but I found the anime itself unuseful for world exploring.

Then you come to Frontier, with hardcore culture addicts like Elmo, old-school soldiers like Temjin still harboring resentment of civilian rule, and people between like the cheerful giant farmers and loyalist soldiers like Klan, proud both of their heritage and their newfound culture. In addition, there seems to be an idea that Zentradi are still being converted, sometimes reluctantly, to join human society. It seems a natural development of the world that was left behind from the original series, and one prone to continuing racial tensions even with the gradual interbreeding. And the Vajra? Those are aliens which are actually alien: they're not derived from the same genetic stock as humans, they didn't possess human bodies, none of it: it's not clear whether either species could have learned the other could be communicated with any time soon, before Ranka really came to understand her power.

As far as the idea of infighting and lust for power consuming people, that was a major point in the original series too: Frontier is just the first series that brings political drama of the postwar era to the forefront, as opposed to the more personal drama of Plus or 7's encounter with another out of control Protoculture bioweapon. Again, I think it makes Frontier a natural followup to the second story arc of SDFM: as someone else here put it, it's a series where humans are outgrowing the shadow of the Protoculture and having to face their own creations and their own wars. Of course, these often parallel what the Protoculture themselves fell to, but isn't facing the demons that slew the heroes of ancient times what an epic is about?

[Duke Togo]

One of the things that surprised me about Macross Frontier was how dark certain parts of humanity had become.

Human nature?

Zentradi were easy to intergrate because they were basically giant humans. But humans nontheless genetically speaking.

No, they're Zentradi.

[d3v]

Zentradi were easy to intergrate because they were basically giant humans. But humans nontheless genetically speaking.

No, they're Zentradi.

I think what RedWolf means here is that at the genetic level, humans and zentraedi are for all intents and purposes, the same species.

[Duke Togo]

I think what RedWolf means here is that at the genetic level, humans and zentraedi are for all intents and purposes, the same species.

Species yes, humans no.

[Einherjar]

I guess the reason why there isn't much material focusing on the integration of the Zentradi and other humanoids is because, to Kawamori and co., it doesn't matter. Aside from some bad apples on both sides, relations could be going very well with conflicts popping out less and less over the years unless done deliberately. Even at macron size, most of them are indistinguishable to humans with the only difference being big. Perhaps a few more generations and it really won't matter at all. But the uncultured rouge Zentradi fleets, if they still exist, may be a different story.

I thought the lust for power in the Frontier era was strikingly different from all the rest because, from what we know so far, the leadership of an entire human fleet openly rebelled against the NUNS. Now that I think about it, the actions of the Grace and her Galaxy Fleet hive mind are oddly similar to Anti-U.N. forces of Macross Zero. Their mecha have some similarities and they both tried to use an alien artifact/species to meet their goals. Coincidence?

[RedWolf]

Well the AUN was hoping the Birdman was a weapon but weren't told by Dr. Hasford that it is meant for the extermination of the human race.

Grace saw the Vajra and the SD implant network as the next stage of evolution.

Not to mention total control.

Thing is colonies and fleets are becming more and more independent.

Some like rogue UN Spacy Commander Wilbur Garland wanted a more unified government. Under his rule.

Also if we take in some info from Macross Plus. There are colony conflicts and some insurrections.

Macross Dynamite 7 has shown smugglers selling weapons to fight UN Spacy.

[Morpheus]

Well the AUN was hoping the Birdman was a weapon but weren't told by Dr. Hasford that it is meant for the extermination of the human race.

Grace saw the Vajra and the SD implant network as the next stage of evolution.

Not to mention total control.

Thing is colonies and fleets are becming more and more independent.

Some like rogue UN Spacy Commander Wilbur Garland wanted a more unified government. Under his rule.

Also if we take in some info from Macross Plus. There are colony conflicts and some insurrections.

Macross Dynamite 7 has shown smugglers selling weapons to fight UN Spacy.

Well without those background stories.....we wouldn't have our Macross series/OVA/game right?

[Ork_dreadnought]

I thought the lust for power in the Frontier era was strikingly different from all the rest because, from what we know so far, the leadership of an entire human fleet openly rebelled against the NUNS. Now that I think about it, the actions of the Grace and her Galaxy Fleet hive mind are oddly similar to Anti-U.N. forces of Macross Zero. Their mecha have some similarities and they both tried to use an alien artifact/species to meet their goals. Coincidence?

All things being equal, its a little surprising that rebellion, and infighting over alien technology hasn't happened more often. The assorted fleets and colonies are separated by vast distances and represent self-contained nations. It would be enevitable that these would seek independance for one reason or another. NUNS is afterall, distant ruler, detached from your world and appearently oblivious to your needs. I don't think we've ever seen NUNS (or the post UN Macross government) actively oppress anyone, but even if they did, they don't really have the ability to control things by force. It wouldn't take much for a mild resentment to turn into a full fledged rebellion, or for a military coup to escape immediate retaliation. Part and parcel of this would be the assorted protoculture relics, which could easily tip the balance of power. If an anti-UN faction got its hands on a Factory Satellite, for example, whoo-boy. I wonder if NUNS official policy on this is let everyone do their own thing, and only get involved when there is no other option, as being heavyhanded would be counter productive.

Thinking about it, the only situation where I see NUNS bigwigs charging in and throwing their weight around, would be "first contact" type situations, such as Zentradi fleet joining humanity out of the blue, and the aftermath of Frontier.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[RedWolf]

Thinking about it, the only situation where I see NUNS bigwigs charging in and throwing their weight around, would be "first contact" type situations, such as Zentradi fleet joining humanity out of the blue, and the aftermath of Frontier.

You mean like Fleet of Strongest Women where the UN Spacy bigwig orders Exsedol to destroy a remnant Meltran fleet of Bodol Zer.

Which never encountered Earthers.

Or other Bodol fleets.

[d3v]

There's also the fact that it's been barely 50 years since humanity was almost wiped out and separation from the UN and "independence" is the furthest thing from people's minds - especially when a happy byproduct of the war was humanity for the first time truly coming under one banner. There's also the federalist nature of the NUNG where each fleet is practically it's own nation (and in fact, by 2059, that seems to be the case). Indeed, the NUNG at this point in Macross time probably acts more like the EU in relation to independent European countries.

[Ork_dreadnought]

You mean like Fleet of Strongest Women where the UN Spacy bigwig orders Exsedol to destroy a remnant Meltran fleet of Bodol Zer.

Which never encountered Earthers.

Or other Bodol fleets.

I suppose so, but I never watched that episode, (I'm currently working up the nerve to give M7 another try,) so I can't comment.

[Einherjar]

There's also the fact that it's been barely 50 years since humanity was almost wiped out and separation from the UN and "independence" is the furthest thing from people's minds - especially when a happy byproduct of the war was humanity for the first time truly coming under one banner. There's also the federalist nature of the NUNG where each fleet is practically it's own nation (and in fact, by 2059, that seems to be the case). Indeed, the NUNG at this point in Macross time probably acts more like the EU in relation to independent European countries.

That's why the Galaxy Fleet's actions surprised me. The incident could have huge implications for the NUNG in the long run, good or bad, if they ever followed up on it.

[Fade Rathnik]

That's why the Galaxy Fleet's actions surprised me. The incident could have huge implications for the NUNG in the long run, good or bad, if they ever followed up on it.

This is very true but I still wonder if that could be counted as the actions of a whole fleet or just Galaxy Anonymous. The only way they could have lost without a doubt is if they were locked out of using the Varja network to piggy back on, and Grace showed they could really be any where. They just mind control any hapless implanted sod they need. That's the great thing about this villain, even though this was a tactical defeat of major proportions, it's a strategic victory. They likely have all the data they need to take any queen if the can get to it, giving them any Varja under her control. They'll show up again.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Fade Rathnik

[Einherjar]

This is very true but I still wonder if that could be counted as the actions of a whole fleet or just Galaxy Anonymous. The only way they could have lost without a doubt is if they were locked out of using the Varja network to piggy back on, and Grace showed they could really be any where. They just mind control any hapless implanted sod they need. That's the great thing about this villain, even though this was a tactical defeat of major proportions, it's a strategic victory. They likely have all the data they need to take any queen if the can get to it, giving them any Varja under her control. They'll show up again.

I was leaning towards more militant authority over the fleets by the NUNG, but that Galaxy Anonymous view is more frightening.

[Zinjo]

I see the NUNG as more of a federalist organization. Setting policy, supporting the Galaxy network and colonies but staying out of internal politics unless it threatens the community as a whole.

It seems that in 50 years the bureaucracy of the NUNG has become so big that it is becoming ineffective on day to day issues. Thus the need to allow each fleet to be treated as an autonomous nation in the Galaxy network, since most are too far out to directly support and once they colonize they will be a colony with a fixed location.

Ultimately the Galaxy behaved more akin to a rogue state / nation rather than a rebellious colony. Seeking to find and use controlled technology and practices. Being a corporate sponsored fleet it was behaving like many multi-national corporations do right now. Skirting or influencing local laws to their own financial advantage.

[d3v]

While on the topic of insurrections I've been wondering about Temujin's little rebellion. Seeing as how easily it was quelled by simply having Ranka sing (pure culture shock), it seems that it was a mostly half-hearted one. The more I look at it, the more it seems like Temujin simply appealing to whatever dissatisfaction the troops had (which seems to be more a sense of being disgruntled at their current deployment and treatment by the military) and turning what could simply have been a simply strike into an insurrection.