Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[Final Vegeta]

Furthermore, more thrust has benefits beyond just acceleration. There's still things like payload that would benefit from massive thrust to the point where the physically possible acceleration is far higher than a human body could take.

Now that you mention it, F = m*a, meaning that a higher g limit could be meant to substain a heavier mass (the payload you mentioned) under the same acceleration.

Incidentally, I'm surprised there hasn't been any kind of total fluid suspension g-dampening system in Macross.

*cough* Yet Another Evangelion Reference *cough*

FV

[Mr March]

Somethings missing alright

I'm with Chrono on this one and remain unconvinced. Super Gulds, quoting what we don't know rather than what we do and g-suits rated at 60g make no sense, follow no logical consistency, follow no progressive chronology and fail to unify the events of Macross. Basara didn't even use a suit

On the issue of g-load, as Chrono has pointed out, a greater tolerance is required to maintain structural strength with a heavier load under the same acceleration. So obviously there is a significant reason for g-limits beyond the pilot's tolerance.

Except in this case there are no weird numbers.

Oh trust me, your numbers are weird

[ChronoReverse]

*cough* Yet Another Evangelion Reference *cough*

FV

I wasn't even thinking that actually. I almost always base my ideas on something from real life and fluid cushioning is definitely something researched in real life.

[edwin3060]

Somethings missing alright

I'm with Chrono on this one and remain unconvinced. Super Gulds, quoting what we don't know rather than what we do and g-suits rated at 60g make no sense, follow no logical consistency, follow no progressive chronology and fail to unify the events of Macross. Basara didn't even use a suit

On the issue of g-load, as Chrono has pointed out, a greater tolerance is required to maintain structural strength with a heavier load under the same acceleration. So obviously there is a significant reason for g-limits beyond the pilot's tolerance.

Oh trust me, your numbers are weird

Meh, I am just quoting what we do know. We do know that the VF-22 can sustain +60/-45 Gs, we know that VFs beyond VF-1 can sustain G-forces beyond the limits of modern day technology, so why limit yourself to the thinking that G suits aren't that advanced? On the other hand, you are assuming that because EX-Gear > G-suit, hence VF-25 > VF-22-- which follows no logical consistency, to put things in your words, unless we know for sure the in-universe limits of the G-suit. Your 'progressive chronology' argument doesn't hold water as well, since as has been pointed out many times, there need be no constant improvements in a certain area, in fact, certain absolute performance parameters can be allowed to lapse in order to attain greater efficiency, as was asserted in the thruster discussion.

If Chrono's argument held water, the VF-25 would have a higher G loading than the VF-22 since the VF-25 clearly has more additional external attachments than the VF-22 or its predecessors.

Basically, until we know the G-limits of the VF-27, this argument is moot, since all arguments against the YF-19/-21 derivatives, like I said, are based on the (flawed) idea that newer must be better. The only argument that might hold water in my view is the EX-Gear one, but until we get some quantitative data, we can't know for sure.

[edwin3060]

Eh, a design limit higher than the human body can sustain isn't necessarily bad. Being able to pulse a great acceleration is still an advantage even if it's not feasible to sustain it even for a second.

Agree for your first point, which supports my argument-- Guld certainly couldn't sustain his acceleration, but he could still achieve it (it being beyond the limits of the YF-21, until there is evidence otherwise).

Furthermore, more thrust has benefits beyond just acceleration. There's still things like payload that would benefit from massive thrust to the point where the physically possible acceleration is far higher than a human body could take.

That is probably why the VF-25 has a thrust to empty weight ratio of 38.8 (from Mr. March's website ). Doesn't counter the point about G forces though, since G is all about acceleration.

Incidentally, I'm surprised there hasn't been any kind of total fluid suspension g-dampening system in Macross. While that might not be reasonable for a frontline fighter, special ops fighters would be perfectly suited for it. Another possibility would be some sort of aerogel system.

Good idea! You would probably need BDI/BCS though, since the fluid would hinder movement of your arms and legs to control the VF. The VF-27 is obviously most amendable to such a modification.

[ChronoReverse]

If Chrono's argument held water, the VF-25 would have a higher G loading than the VF-22 since the VF-25 clearly has more additional external attachments than the VF-22 or its predecessors.

Actually, my argument was something else.

I meant that the uber-powerful engines on the VF-25 could simply be for lugging around more equipment. That is to say, powerful engines that can produce super high level g's might not be purposed for that.

And again, the g-limits are not the ultimate structural g-limits. The notation for the YF-19 for instance is the same as what is used for real fighters and only correspond to the sustained controllable g-limits. The actual point where the fighters would physically break apart is unknown for the YF-19/-21 and very well could be impossible under most situations for the fighters. And the point where the fighter would break in an atmosphere is obviously different from in space.

Good idea! You would probably need BDI/BCS though, since the fluid would hinder movement of your arms and legs to control the VF. The VF-27 is obviously most amendable to such a modification.

Minor modifications to the existing controls of the VF's might even be enough. Minor movements like hand and feet motions wouldn't be much impeded while finger movements wouldn't be impeded at all. So they'd just have to minimize large limb movements (perhaps a joystick closer to the F-16 stick). A "smart" fluid with variable viscosity is also feasible (and not out of the reach of even modern technology).

Edited November 24, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Graham]

Why even bother with developing new systems such as Ex-Gear and ISC if G-suits already exist that can handle extremely high G limits such as +60/-45 of the VF-22. It just doesn't make sense to me and as others have said doesn't seem consistant with in-universe technological development.

I'm wondering if the stated maximam G limits are in fact more to do with the max speed at which a VF can safely transform without ripping itself apart?

Graham

[anime52k8]

I'm wondering if the stated maximam G limits are in fact more to do with the max speed at which a VF can safely transform without ripping itself apart?

Graham

that's kind of what I was trying to say.

[Mr March]

edwin

Perhaps because the VF-25 is much lighter than previous Valkyrie generations? It certainly tracks, since (evidence) the VF-25 Full Armor is stated to be just as fast and maneuverable as a standard VF-25. The VF-25 also happens to be (evidence) over a ton lighter than the VF-22 and even slightly lighter than the VF-19. Which means the VF-25 doesn't need as high a g-limit to sustain the same acceleration, whereas the VF-22 would.

ChronoReverse's statement does hold water precisely because it's no "theory"; its the laws of physics, which directly contrasts with super Gulds, super g-suits, demanding g-limit must = pilot endurance (this particular point actually flies in the face Kawamori's story in Macross Plus). None of this comes from the anime or trivia, it's all fan-invented to support a theory which does not unify the known facts nor all the Macross series. Like Graham has said, if g-suits rated at 60gs existed in Macross 7, there's no need at all for an ICS/EX Gear system in Macross Frontier. This throws out the entire chronological progression of Macross technology; and for what reason? To support a theory that isn't internally consistent? I'm going to call foul on that.

There is evidence to the contrary; dialog which I directly quoted from Guld. Besides, it's not my place to disprove whatever theories are blasted at me shotgun style. I've successfully defended my interpretation and backed it up with both direct quotes from the anime and official figures from the Macross trivia. Which is why I remain unconvinced of the alternate interpretations of g-limits presented in this thread so far.

As an aside, I understand where you're coming from so don't assume we're all missing your point. You don't like it when people assume newer means better. But I'm not defending my interpretation of g-limits on that basis; I'm defending my interpretation on the basis that it makes more sense and is far more unified with all of Macross. And for the sake of argument, even if we did all have such a bias, that alone doesn't mean we're wrong (very important distinction). But as I said, at least in my case, your distaste for newer must = better actually has no bearing on me (quite the contrary, particularly if you read any of my comments on Macross Frontier technology posted during the series run)

[Graham]

With fighter jets it's usually the case that newer does in fact mean better, especially when there is a significant time gap between the new and the old.

In the case of the YF-19 and YF-21, development began in 2034 and the first test flight for both took place in 2039. The VF-25 had it's first test flight in 2057, 18 years after the first flight of the YF-19 & YF-21.

It's unlikely IMO that that a VF with the advantage of 18 years improvements in technology would actually be worse than the older VFs.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

The thing is, you can't (and don't have to) improve EVERYTHING. Hypothesis:

VF-25 is faster, better weapons, better radar, stealthier, longer-ranged, easier to fly, easier to maintain, easier to build (and thus easier to supply the colony fleets)---BUT is a bit less agile than the VF-19S. Is it a better plane?

How many things will you trade agility for?

Just because something is newer/better, doesn't mean it's going to surpass everything in every way. Look at the F-22--it is not the fastest, not the longest-ranged, not the highest payload fighter of all time. Yet it's still considered the uber-fighter due to being so good in other areas.

And look at the F-35. Slowest US fighter in 30 (or maybe even 40) years. Less agile than a 30-year-old F-16A. Pretty sad payload and range IMHo. Yet still considered overall better than anything but the F-22 (and maybe Super Flanker) due to its stealth, radar, and datalinks.

[Graham]

Heh, I was orginally going to mention the F-35 Joint Strife Fighter as one of the possible exceptions to the rule that newer is not always better, but decided against it. But, as David has opened that can of worms.

Heh, I'll take a Typhoon/Raphael or Gripen against your F-35 in A2A anyday, or an A-10 for the CAS role rather than the F-35.

Graham

[Graham]

Agreed, the VF-25 may not be superior in every aspect to the VF-19 or VF-22, but it is likely superior in enough areas to make it overall a better VF than the older mecha.

Graham

[hobbes221]

Oh man the tech thread lives!

I'm willing to believe that when the Super Nova project came out it could have been a free for all in the design, as in 'How many Gs can we make the airframe take before it fails and before it make the design too heavy'. Remember that the people who write the requirements or designing may never use the item that they are working on and may not have a realistic outlook on how the item will be used by those who will use it in the field. So if's the case then I can see the 60/45 g limit being higher than a pilot can use.

Did Guld pull off something crazy and beyond what most could do? Yes.

Was that within the G limits of the airframe? IMHO, Yes.

Was that within the G limits of the pilot and/or G suit? IMHO, No.

I feel that as it stands right now the -19/22 can pull more Gs than their pilots can. And with the new systems of the -25 I feel that the -25 is at least the equal of the -19/22. Line for line equal? No, but close enough that it would come down to what the pilots had for breakfast to find the winner. (given that the pilots are at the same level.)

Once again it comes down to not having all the fact needed but all in all great ideas from all.

[azrael]

Notes from the vol. 4 liner notes. (i.e. why Az is really hating the changes being made as we get more notes)

New stuff:

VF-25G

-gunner kit built into EX-Gear

-SSL-9B Dragunov(?) anti-armor sniper rifle for long-range precision shooting with an error margin of less than 10cm at a shooting distance of 20km. Uses SP-55X 55mm ultra-high-speed armor-piercing round.

RVF-25

-Controls guidance of a maximum of 6 unmanned QF-4000 Ghost via Fold Wave. Named Simon, John, Peter.

-Aegis Pack Custom AP-SF-01+ - radome detects targets by fold waves and search operations are possible at the speed of light. Maximum detectable distance is approximately one Light-day when deployed in outer space.

Slightly modified stuff:

Prototype first test flight: June 24, 2057. Macross Frontier fleet came near a newly discovered star system (in the M55NGC6909 planetary cluster) for resource collection. A series of test flight programs began on the 3rd planet (designated Messiah 025) where the atmosphere was deemed suitable for testing the new variable fighter along with the Uraga-class carrier "Shanghai III" served as an orbital base for testing to be carried out.

Why am I annoyed?

1) Battroid height for the VF-25F is listed at 14.53m. Originally it was 15.59m. VF-25S was listed at 15.59 in the liner notes, then the kit manual lists it at 14.53m. I'm waiting for the Chronicle confirm what is what.

2) 1st test flight date is the same. Location...ugh. The VF-25F kit manual says it was on Eden. Now it's on a different star system.

3) AIF-7S Ghost vs. QF-4000 Ghost. I'm confused. Are they 2 different models or was this changed?

Right now, the editing gods probably hate me, and the feeling is mutual.

[edwin3060]

Actually, my argument was something else.

I meant that the uber-powerful engines on the VF-25 could simply be for lugging around more equipment. That is to say, powerful engines that can produce super high level g's might not be purposed for that.

And again, the g-limits are not the ultimate structural g-limits. The notation for the YF-19 for instance is the same as what is used for real fighters and only correspond to the sustained controllable g-limits. The actual point where the fighters would physically break apart is unknown for the YF-19/-21 and very well could be impossible under most situations for the fighters. And the point where the fighter would break in an atmosphere is obviously different from in space.

Sorry CR! I thought you were arguing against my argument when you were actually for my argument! Bolded would be a strong supporting argument for some pilots being able to handle the insane Gs.

Minor modifications to the existing controls of the VF's might even be enough. Minor movements like hand and feet motions wouldn't be much impeded while finger movements wouldn't be impeded at all. So they'd just have to minimize large limb movements (perhaps a joystick closer to the F-16 stick). A "smart" fluid with variable viscosity is also feasible (and not out of the reach of even modern technology).

Hmm yep I was just trying to get around the problem of 'feel' since pilots who normally train on other jets would have extensive re-learning to do to function in a liquid environment-- even with non-newtonian fluids the viscosity (and resistance to movement) would not be able to match that of air. With a well tuned BDI such adjustments would be unnecessary.

[edwin3060]

Why even bother with developing new systems such as Ex-Gear and ISC if G-suits already exist that can handle extremely high G limits such as +60/-45 of the VF-22. It just doesn't make sense to me and as others have said doesn't seem consistant with in-universe technological development.

Graham

Because not all pilots in G suits can handle such high Gs? I've already stated that I'm not arguing for the 99% percentile case. I have no problems with the statement that the VF-25 is better for most pilots in terms of maneuverability.

Mr March: You are confusing thrust and acceleration. The VF-25 having a thrust to (empty)weight ratio of 38.8 while a G limit of only 29.5 makes it possible for the Amoured pack to accelerate as fast as the clean VF-25--- basically the clean VF-25 has wayyy more thrust than it can use! This is means that the Armoured pack can also generate an acceleration of 29.5 Gs. Also, once the information of the armoured pack is released, this allows us to calculate the thrust generated by the thrusters on the armoured pack.

Also, your assertions about me are not true. I have always said that the VF-25 is probably a better combat VF than the YF-19/-21 derivatives-- just not in the area of maneuverability. The data backs me up-- especially if CRs post about the g-limits being the sustainable accelerations of the YF-19/-21 is true. Your support is the idea that overtechnology G-suits cannot sustain higher Gs than the G suits we have now-a-days. I have already shown that the dialogue you posted is circumstantial, while my data isnt.

[edwin3060]

Heh, I was orginally going to mention the F-35 Joint Strife Fighter as one of the possible exceptions to the rule that newer is not always better, but decided against it. But, as David has opened that can of worms.

Heh, I'll take a Typhoon/Raphael or Gripen against your F-35 in A2A anyday, or an A-10 for the CAS role rather than the F-35.

Graham

In fact, all modern American fighters have trade-offs in some areas. The F-16 and the F-18 both have lower top speeds than the Vietnam era F-4 Phantom, they traded top speed for transonic/subsonic maneuverability. Heck, even the Typhoon is slower than the F-4 Phantom, and slower than the F-15 as well. Does that mean that they are worse combat aircraft? Not at all! Similarly, like David Hingten has mentioned, the VF-25 may be less maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 derivatives but it is still a better combat aircraft more suited to the masses.

All we are saying is that maneuverability is an area where some sacrifice was made in order to advance the design in other ways...is that so hard to accept?

Hobbes221: Good points, but the +60/-45 Gs was for the VF-22, an operational special forces aircraft-- not a test machine. If the SuperNova competition showed that the +32.5/-17.2 G limits of the YF-21 were more than the pilot could handle, why double that for the VF-22?

The -25 is probably better in overall combat ability, but that comes from its customisability and the insane number of missiles it can carry while retaining the same performance-- however to do so it had to sacrifice agility.

I'm simply glad to revitalize the tech thread

[ChronoReverse]

Well, I'm not really participating too much in this debate but just offering up clarifying points (I hope anyway) wherever I could.

With that said, there's no doubt in my mind that the only limitation for the YF-19/-21, or VF-25/-27 are purely pilot limitations. As for YF-21 and Guld, he was still in full control of the YF-21 so he could not have exceeded the ratings specified in the Compendium. Unfortunately we do not know how much stress was placed on him or how much the dampening systems of the YF-21 can handle.

As for the even higher limits of the VF-22, it could simply be because it no longer used the bleeding-edge deforming wing and thus the structural integrity was improved. The more powerful engines could also contribute to increase the durability of the ECA. One thing that is quite noticeable is how the VF-22, despite being deployed after the VF-19S, has significantly lower thrust. This could nicely tie in by supposing more energy has been diverted to the ECA or something.

Edited November 25, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[edwin3060]

Notes from the vol. 4 liner notes. (i.e. why Az is really hating the changes being made as we get more notes)

New stuff:

VF-25G

-gunner kit built into EX-Gear

-SSL-98 Dragunov(?) anti-armor sniper rifle for long-range precision shooting with an error margin of less than 10cm at a shooting distance of 20km. Uses SP-55X 55mm ultra-high-speed armor-piercing round.

RVF-25

-Controls guidance of a maximum of 6 unmanned QF-4000 Ghost via Fold Wave. Named Simon, John, Peter.

-Aegis Pack Custom AP-SF-01+ - radome detects targets by fold waves and search operations are possible at the speed of light. Maximum detectable distance is approximately one Light-day when deployed in outer space.

Slightly modified stuff:

Prototype first test flight: June 24, 2057. Macross Frontier fleet came near a newly discovered star system (in the M55NGC6909 planetary cluster) for resource collection. A series of test flight programs began on the 3rd planet (designated Messiah 025) where the atmosphere was deemed suitable for testing the new variable fighter along with the Uraga-class carrier "Shanghai III" served as an orbital base for testing to be carried out.

Why am I annoyed?

1) Battroid height for the VF-25F is listed at 14.53m. Originally it was 15.59m. VF-25S was listed at 15.59 in the liner notes, then the kit manual lists it at 14.53m. I'm waiting for the Chronicle confirm what is what.

2) 1st test flight date is the same. Location...ugh. The VF-25F kit manual says it was on Eden. Now it's on a different star system.

3) AIF-7S Ghost vs. QF-4000 Ghost. I'm confused. Are they 2 different models or was this changed?

Right now, the editing gods probably hate me, and the feeling is mutual.

VF-25G: So we have official notice that it is a solid slug rather than something else. That margin of error is insane though, implying that either the slug has in-flight correction mechanisms, or the flight time is very short (i.e. slug is travelling at relativistic speeds). Seems to be the latter.

RVF-25: "search operations are possible at the speed of light"-- no poo (Normal, Earthly) Radar works at the speed of light as well. Sounds cool though.

Prototype test flight: Some meat for a possible manga side story? Maybe thats why they changed it.

Battroid height: Looks like they took the Bandai 1/60 for real? If you move the hip parts up in the Battroid mode, it would get shorter, afterall-- albeit with a bigger apparent crotch

[hobbes221]

...why double that for the VF-22?

Please keep in mind that I'm not hear to say 'you're wrong' or anything like that I'm just trying to toss out ideas. And on that point hears one for that, what if the designer were looking at the possible use of the airframe as a UCAV? I know that NOTHING has been said along those lines (at least that I know of) but if you look at it from their point of view Super Nova was canned for a UCAV who was to say that it would not happen later down the road so the guys cover both bases and have something that could compete against a new ghost fighter, and hey look its a VF too. As we can now see by 2059 the Ghost program has made it to the front lines, maybe it was still active on some level even right after the events of M+ just very black. So when the order for VF-22s come in they up the rating just in case they need to fill a UCAV role and bill it as 'needed for Spec Ops role'.

Once again just ideas as to why something happened the way it did, I try to keep an open outlook on things and from as many view points as I can. That means that I may not even agree with some of the things that I say, I'm just getting them out there for another opinion

-edit- It would not shock me in the least if SK trolls around here and retcons things just to drive us up the walls!

Edited November 25, 2008 by hobbes221

[edwin3060]

Please keep in mind that I'm not hear to say 'you're wrong' or anything like that I'm just trying to toss out ideas. And on that point hears one for that, what if the designer were looking at the possible use of the airframe as a UCAV? I know that NOTHING has been said along those lines (at least that I know of) but if you look at it from their point of view Super Nova was canned for a UCAV who was to say that it would not happen later down the road so the guys cover both bases and have something that could compete against a new ghost fighter, and hey look its a VF too. As we can now see by 2059 the Ghost program has made it to the front lines, maybe it was still active on some level even right after the events of M+ just very black. So when the order for VF-22s come in they up the rating just in case they need to fill a UCAV role and bill it as 'needed for Spec Ops role'.

Once again just ideas as to why something happened the way it did, I try to keep an open outlook on things and from as many view points as I can. That means that I may not even agree with some of the things that I say, I'm just getting them out there for another opinion

-edit- It would not shock me in the least if SK trolls around here and retcons things just to drive us up the walls!

Hmm thats one possibility.. F-4 Phantoms are being converted into UAVs now, for example. However as I understand it the backlash against UCAVs was pretty big after the Sharon Apple Incident (might be one reason we don't see UCAVs in Macross 7, it took until Macross Frontier for it to be re-introduced).

Heh thats a good question... does SK understand english?

[hobbes221]

Hmm thats one possibility.. F-4 Phantoms are being converted into UAVs now, for example. However as I understand it the backlash against UCAVs was pretty big after the Sharon Apple Incident (might be one reason we don't see UCAVs in Macross 7, it took until Macross Frontier for it to be re-introduced).

I forgot to add that awhile back I saw designs to turn older F-16s into UCAVs as without the all the gear needed for a pilot and without a pilot at all the birds would be able to pull a bit more out of the flight envelope, nothing ever came of it (at least not yet) but the idea is still out there. And you are right about the Ghost backlash but I did say black so like top secret and stuff but now I would like the date that the new Ghost reach their IOC (initial operational capability) just to see how fast they made their come back.

Man the Ghost fighters are like Rocky, they just won't stay down (now I need a Ghost montage, because... well you know )

Edited November 25, 2008 by hobbes221

[badboy00z]

I like the idea of a UVF.

[sketchley]

Already exists - the QVF-11 (not sure if QVF is the canon name of it. Nevertheless, the orange coloured VF-11's blown up real good in Macross Plus.)

[RedWolf]

And the Neo Glaug which only has two modes. Unlike the Variable Glaug which it was based upon.

[azrael]

VF-25G: So we have official notice that it is a solid slug rather than something else. That margin of error is insane though, implying that either the slug has in-flight correction mechanisms, or the flight time is very short (i.e. slug is travelling at relativistic speeds). Seems to be the latter.

Great Mechanics DX issue #5 and the Chronicle already noted that the sniper rifle uses electromagnetic rails in the barrel to accelerate the round. Both indicated, IIRC, that the bullet used gunpowder to get it going whereby the rails would then take over.

[Mr March]

Mr March: You are confusing thrust and acceleration. The VF-25 having a thrust to (empty)weight ratio of 38.8 while a G limit of only 29.5 makes it possible for the Amoured pack to accelerate as fast as the clean VF-25--- basically the clean VF-25 has wayyy more thrust than it can use! This is means that the Armoured pack can also generate an acceleration of 29.5 Gs. Also, once the information of the armoured pack is released, this allows us to calculate the thrust generated by the thrusters on the armoured pack.

Also, your assertions about me are not true. I have always said that the VF-25 is probably a better combat VF than the YF-19/-21 derivatives-- just not in the area of maneuverability. The data backs me up-- especially if CRs post about the g-limits being the sustainable accelerations of the YF-19/-21 is true. Your support is the idea that overtechnology G-suits cannot sustain higher Gs than the G suits we have now-a-days. I have already shown that the dialogue you posted is circumstantial, while my data isnt.

Nothing is being confused. The thrust-to-weight ratio changes the moment any weight is added, including fuel, Super Packs or Armor parts. As for data, none exists. What is being mistaken is the idea that super g-suits exist in the Macross universe, despite a total lack of any evidence of such technologies until the ISC/EX-Gear system came around (with the aforementioned VF-15 exception). Dismiss dialog at your own error.

Lastly, this was never a combat performance debate, ever, so my interpretation of your posts stands. Lastly, any 1% exception to the rule is the same argument that made no sense in the two-seater VF-25 debate. Why would the NUNS/SMS spend millions on 60g rated g-suits if 99% of pilots gain nothing from them? The answer is they wouldn't, if such fan-made suits even existed, which they don't.

[Zinjo]

Great Mechanics DX issue #5 and the Chronicle already noted that the sniper rifle uses electromagnetic rails in the barrel to accelerate the round. Both indicated, IIRC, that the bullet used gunpowder to get it going whereby the rails would then take over.

That explains a LOT!

Rail guns are capable of turning their projectiles into a plasma mass given to sufficient speed of the accelerated shot.

[Letigre]

Already exists - the QVF-11 (not sure if QVF is the canon name of it. Nevertheless, the orange coloured VF-11's blown up real good in Macross Plus.)

I never knew they were transformable. ..I always assumed they were the just drones based on the Thunderbolt's airframe. I just don't know how much sense it makes to blow up something as expensive as a VF for the purpose of a live-fire exercise.

[shadow3393]

RVF-25: "search operations are possible at the speed of light"-- no poo (Normal, Earthly) Radar works at the speed of light as well. Sounds cool though.

Maybe it means that it is capable of search operations during fold transit. It seems like a good thing to know whats gonna be waiting for you when you defold.

[Letigre]

Maybe it means that it is capable of search operations during fold transit. It seems like a good thing to know whats gonna be waiting for you when you defold.

I think it's the opposite rather, detecting an incoming fold before it occurs by the readings of local fold waves (like Luca seemed to do in ep .7?), rather than a detection of incoming fold signatures as they occur (which seems to be the case of the ship based detection systems.) It's either that, or maybe the RVF's capabilites are real-time detection of incoming folds, while ship systems are lagged for whatever reason.

[azrael]

More notes, this time from Official File vol. 2.

VF-27

The wording sounds as if the VF-27 was never intended to be piloted by a non-cyborg-type pilot. It also states that due to low airframe versatility, it's not intended for mass production. The text also doesn't know if the green-colored VF-27 is slightly different compared to Brera's VF-27.

[badboy00z]

Already exists - the QVF-11 (not sure if QVF is the canon name of it. Nevertheless, the orange coloured VF-11's blown up real good in Macross Plus.)

I was thinking more inline of a transformable drone. Kind of like the bits in Gundam X. Or maybe an actual AI as powerful as the Sharon Apple Ghost X9.

[sketchley]

I never knew they were transformable. ..I always assumed they were the just drones based on the Thunderbolt's airframe. I just don't know how much sense it makes to blow up something as expensive as a VF for the purpose of a live-fire exercise.

If they're old units destined for the scrap yard...

not to mention that these things happen in real life. Refer to all the nuke tests using captured and retired navel vessel.