Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[Final Vegeta]

Agreed. Companies do have a habit for re-numbering a product which corrects a slight issue with the previous model or just numbering a different product when it is structurally and internally the same as a similar model.

This is real world logic. Anime logic it's simpler.

And while vernier thrusters have never been described (as many other things *cough* reaction engines *cough*), they have been included in the stats list of all the main Valkyries, starting from the VF-1.

For instance, the VF-14 Vampire:

Two Shinnakasu-Daimler FF-2770D engines. P&W-Daimler HMM-5C high-maneuverability vernier thrusters.

Of the two only official stats we have, the class of vernier thrusters is included. This fact is significant. Obviously, since the type of vernier thrusters has been overlooked for so long, it may be difficult at first to accept its importance, but search your feelings and you will know it to be true.

That said, the performance of the fighter within atmosphere depends on many factors. Vernier thrusters are a lot more important in space, and this is why the VF-0 doesn't have them. The importance of G limits is not to be discarded either, although it must be noted that it means only the amount of stress the airframe is able to handle, but not how much the fighter is able to accelerate, for which there is no given statistic although the performance of the vernier thrusters could be significant about the potential ability to dodge incoming attacks.

By the way, in the last scenes of Macross Frontier Alto's VF-25 appears wrecked. I believe it is meant to be interpreted that Alto actually reached the G limits of its plane (notice also the broken visor).

FV

[sketchley]

Who says that the VF-0 doesn't have vernier thrusters? It's covered in plenty of P&W LHP04 low-thrust vernier thrusters beneath multipurpose hook/handles lookalikes.

There is also a "space proving wing" version as well.

Searching my feelings, I say: not having them named would make a bunch of anime fans crazy. They were named to keep the number of crazed otaku sending complaints and questions to a minimum.

And we don't need a statistic for how fast a VF can accelerate, as that's dependant on variable factors (vehicle weight, gravity, friction). However, given the variables that we have (thrusts and weight) we can easily do the math to figure out the acceleration in specified circumstances.

[edwin3060]

By the way, in the last scenes of Macross Frontier Alto's VF-25 appears wrecked. I believe it is meant to be interpreted that Alto actually reached the G limits of its plane (notice also the broken visor).

FV

Like I said, the VF-25 is the first VF to ever be able to accelerate past what it is tested for. Thrust:Weight ratio is about 38 when empty, probably around 30+ loaded. G-limits, 27.5 Gs... you do the math

That said, Mr March, I don't entirely agree with your conclusion about the YF-21. We know a few things-- 1) Guld disabled the limiters on the YF-21 2)There was structural damage to the YF-21 3)The human body can withstand instantaneous shocks of up to 60 Gs with little damage-- it is prolonged acceleration that kills you, and that is more due to circulatory shock than (literally) bone crushing acceleration.

The fact that structural damage occured is probably the most convincing evidence that it exceeded the G limits on the machine-- which he would logically have had to do in order to collide with the Ghost.

[anime52k8]

Hence my caveat, pilots not being the limiting factor. As long as the pilots can take it, the airframe being able to generate and endure a higher G rating would actually equate to a tighter sustained turn rate/radius, since your turn radius is simply proportional to the square of your velocity and the inverse of your acceleration (i.e. the G's that you pull).

Actually, this whole thing fits in pretty well with the VF-25 being a cheaper, more controllable and more mass-production friendly aircraft as compared to the YF-19/-21 and their derivatives. By limiting your airframe to a lower G rating and with better G compensating mechanisms, you run less risk of your pilots being Gulded, after all. There is a real-world parallel in the new liquid filled G-compensating flight suits which allow pilots to endure 12Gs, vs the 9Gs that the 1980's aircraft were limited to.

Interestingly, though, given the insane thrust that the VF-25 has, it can actually run itself to pieces-- the thrust to weight ratio can potentially be greater than the G-limits, so even acceleration in a straight line can compromise the structural integrity of the airframe-- something that the YF-19/21 series couldn't do

when was it ever stated that the VF-25 is supposed to be a cheaper anything? I seem to recall somewhere in the first few episodes Roy Ozma mentions that the VF-25 is very expensive to produce.

now the YF-24 is supposed to be a cheaper mass production alternative to the VF-19 family, the VF-25 however, is a ultra high performance derivative of it.

also, here's a thought. maybe the valks have such high G ratings for transformation rather than actual maneuvering in one mode.

if were comparing to real world planes, some modern planes (such as the F-22) can handle/generate more G's than the pilot can handle even with G-suits so the planes performance is electronically limited. the same is probably the case for Valks, the aircraft's computer limits the maneuverability to what the pilot can take. and if the VF-25 has better G-compensation for the pilot, the VF-25 will have better handling.

but back to the G-rating. just because a plane has a higher maximum G rating doesn't mean it's going to be more maneuverable since for even the tightest turns at most speeds it's not going to be coming close to it's maximum G rating. the G rating is a measure of how strong the airframe is, the plane may not be able to turn fast enough to reach that G loading and it's just overbuilt.

and as for what I said about the high G rating being for transformation. it could be that they rate the planes so high because sections of the valk are probably under enormous amounts of stress during transformation. (I would imagine having half the aircraft fold over itself while traveling at Mach 2 would put a lot of stress on certain parts)

[sketchley]

(...) (I would imagine having half the aircraft fold over itself while traveling at Mach 2 would put a lot of stress on certain parts)

Speaking of that... in Macross 0 the VF-0 would not transform unless the VF was travelling below a certain speed. I can't remember if a speed is actually mentioned or indicated, but given the manuevers they were in the midst of, it was definitely below mach 1.

[anime52k8]

Speaking of that... in Macross 0 the VF-0 would not transform unless the VF was travelling below a certain speed. I can't remember if a speed is actually mentioned or indicated, but given the manuevers they were in the midst of, it was definitely below mach 1.

...and the VF-0 was an older aircraft. more modern valks have stronger airframes and presumably can handle transformation at higher speeds and during more intense maneuvers..

[RedWolf]

Speaking of that... in Macross 0 the VF-0 would not transform unless the VF was travelling below a certain speed. I can't remember if a speed is actually mentioned or indicated, but given the manuevers they were in the midst of, it was definitely below mach 1.

Well they were using a Ghost version of a fast pack.

Which makes the sound boosters retroactively trace their component placement origin ancestry to the QF-2200A Ghost.

Which makes me wonder if the next gen of Valkyries in the future will be utilizing Ghosts as backups.

[Final Vegeta]

Who says that the VF-0 doesn't have vernier thrusters? It's covered in plenty of P&W LHP04 low-thrust vernier thrusters beneath multipurpose hook/handles lookalikes.

The Compendium mentions only backpack rockets for now. It's possible they are only multiporpuse hook/handles.

There is also a "space proving wing" version as well.

Made by Hasegawa, which doesn't appear in the anime.

While the VF-0 was a testbed for space technology, it doesn't necessarily mean it was ready for a space flight as it was. There were still valuable data about transformation, SWAG armor, etc. to collect meanwhile.

And we don't need a statistic for how fast a VF can accelerate, as that's dependant on variable factors (vehicle weight, gravity, friction). However, given the variables that we have (thrusts and weight) we can easily do the math to figure out the acceleration in specified circumstances.

We have maximum thrust, which means how powerful the engine are at maximum output, but there is no indication of how much time, however short, it will take to reach that output (in a short distance a F1 car can outrun a fighter). However this is my assumption and I think there are people here who knows better. From what I've understood though, thrust to weight ratio is still not a real indicator of the Gs that can be pulled during maneuvers. I used wikipedia to quickly gather some facts about this g-load force:

a constant 16 g for a minute, however, may be deadly

Resistance to "negative" or upward g's, which drive blood to the head, is much lower. This limit is typically in the −2 to −3 g (−20 m/s² to −30 m/s²) range. The subject's vision turns red, referred to as a red out. This is probably because capillaries in the eyes swell or burst under the increased blood pressure.

It seems to confirm the realism of Macross Plus.

FV

[edwin3060]

when was it ever stated that the VF-25 is supposed to be a cheaper anything? I seem to recall somewhere in the first few episodes Roy Ozma mentions that the VF-25 is very expensive to produce.

now the YF-24 is supposed to be a cheaper mass production alternative to the VF-19 family, the VF-25 however, is a ultra high performance derivative of it.

also, here's a thought. maybe the valks have such high G ratings for transformation rather than actual maneuvering in one mode.

if were comparing to real world planes, some modern planes (such as the F-22) can handle/generate more G's than the pilot can handle even with G-suits so the planes performance is electronically limited. the same is probably the case for Valks, the aircraft's computer limits the maneuverability to what the pilot can take. and if the VF-25 has better G-compensation for the pilot, the VF-25 will have better handling.

but back to the G-rating. just because a plane has a higher maximum G rating doesn't mean it's going to be more maneuverable since for even the tightest turns at most speeds it's not going to be coming close to it's maximum G rating. the G rating is a measure of how strong the airframe is, the plane may not be able to turn fast enough to reach that G loading and it's just overbuilt.

and as for what I said about the high G rating being for transformation. it could be that they rate the planes so high because sections of the valk are probably under enormous amounts of stress during transformation. (I would imagine having half the aircraft fold over itself while traveling at Mach 2 would put a lot of stress on certain parts)

I must have confused what I heard about the -24 and the -25 then However, all we know is that the VF-25 performs significantly better than the VF-24, not that it surpasses the YF-19/-21. It may perform more poorly in some ways (maneuverability) in order to give it other advantages (transformable even with Super/Armour packs). Similarly in the real world, fighters like the F-16/-18 are slower than predecessors like the F-4 but have better acceleration and maneuverability.

Besides, the VF-27 already holds the title for 'ultra high performance derivative' of the YF-24

We have never had any signs that the G-limits were for transformation rather than maneuverability.

Agreed about G-suits and real world comparison-- I always put in the caveat about pilot performance. However, totally disagree about aircraft performance and G limits-- there is no point in over-building an aircraft for a G-limit it can never reach-- the added weight penalties alone would kill the design. I suspect that the safety factor would be even more reduced for Valkyries than for fighters given how light they are-- simply put, you want to make full use of your abilities.

Real world aircraft can easily exceed their G-ratings-- even F-14s can pull instantaneous maneuvers of 20Gs or more. Thats why there's a difference between instantaneous and sustained turn rates for aircraft. Either way, just like in the real world, G-limits are maneuvering limits, not airframe limits. Just like for the F-16, G limits of +9.0/-3.0 are maneuvering limits, so it is for the YF-19/-21. Your argument about airframe strength, etc, just doesn't make sense, I'm afraid.

[edwin3060]

Well they were using a Ghost version of a fast pack.

Which makes the sound boosters retroactively trace their component placement origin ancestry to the QF-2200A Ghost.

Which makes me wonder if the next gen of Valkyries in the future will be utilizing Ghosts as backups.

Well the next generation is already here! Just look at Luca's RVF-25 and his three disciples

Off topic: There seems to be a whole Christianity thing running in MF-- Messiah, Lucifer, Simon, Peter, John, Judas system..

[edwin3060]

We have maximum thrust, which means how powerful the engine are at maximum output, but there is no indication of how much time, however short, it will take to reach that output (in a short distance a F1 car can outrun a fighter). However this is my assumption and I think there are people here who knows better. From what I've understood though, thrust to weight ratio is still not a real indicator of the Gs that can be pulled during maneuvers. I used wikipedia to quickly gather some facts about this g-load force:

a constant 16 g for a minute, however, may be deadly

Resistance to "negative" or upward g's, which drive blood to the head, is much lower. This limit is typically in the −2 to −3 g (−20 m/s² to −30 m/s²) range. The subject's vision turns red, referred to as a red out. This is probably because capillaries in the eyes swell or burst under the increased blood pressure.

It seems to confirm the realism of Macross Plus.

FV

Good point-- maybe the VF-25 is more 'maneuverable' than the YF-19/-21 series in that it's engines response times are faster. We could probably just settle at that-- the VF-25 having a higher instantaneous maneuverability while the YF-19/-21 having higher sustained maneuverability.

Agreed-- the thrust to weight ratio is only a measure of the linear acceleration possible, so I should have qualified that the VF-25 is the only VF able to accelerate itself to pieces in a straight line... a dubious honour at best, but very useful if the pilot needs to disengage from the fight at once. The F-4 Phantom with its (at the time) outstanding thrust to weight had the same advantage in the Vietnam war.

In MacPlus the YF-21 seems to be accelerating forward and upward to hit the Ghost X-9, thus pulling positive, not negative Gs?

[Mr March]

Agreed. Companies do have a habit for re-numbering a product which corrects a slight issue with the previous model or just numbering a different product when it is structurally and internally the same as a similar model. A Glock 17 is just a larger model pistol than the Glock 19. Just because it has a higher number doesn't make it any different than the Glock 17, it's just a smaller variant.

Exactly. Or to use a Macross example, the VF-3000 and VF-5000 have number designations that far exceed anything from the VF-1 to the VF-25, but they are by no means faster or more powerful.

That said, Mr March, I don't entirely agree with your conclusion about the YF-21. We know a few things-- 1) Guld disabled the limiters on the YF-21 2)There was structural damage to the YF-21 3)The human body can withstand instantaneous shocks of up to 60 Gs with little damage-- it is prolonged acceleration that kills you, and that is more due to circulatory shock than (literally) bone crushing acceleration.

In my opinion the YF-21 never exceeded it's g limit; the dialog states this is impossible. The g forces shown in the anime were clearly sustained over at least a minute (quote from Guld: "another minute"), which means they were not instantaneous accelerations. Had the YF-21 exceeded 32.5 gs of acceleration, Guld would have been dead within 1-2 seconds and would never have been able to sustain 32.5+ gs for over a minute (41 seconds of actual animation time, to be specific). Also, from the appearance of the YF-21 post-battle, the craft retained its shape. The damage to the YF-21 appeared to be all shear stress or battle damage, not compressive stress. We also have to take into account that any debatable structural damage would have been cause during impact with the Ghost X-9.

[edwin3060]

In my opinion the YF-21 never exceeded it's g limit; the dialog states this is impossible. The g forces shown in the anime were clearly sustained over at least a minute (quote from Guld: "another minute"), which means they were not instantaneous accelerations. Had the YF-21 exceeded 32.5 gs of acceleration, Guld would have been dead within 1-2 seconds and would never have been able to sustain 32.5+ gs for over a minute (41 seconds of actual animation time, to be specific). Also, from the appearance of the YF-21 post-battle, the craft retained its shape. The damage to the YF-21 appeared to be all shear stress or battle damage, not compressive stress. We also have to take into account that any debatable structural damage would have been cause during impact with the Ghost X-9.

Well, Guld is half zentran, which could help with that. Also, it wasn't a constant acceleration, they were going all over the sky-- a series of instantaneous or near instantaneous large accelerations, if you will. Shear stress would also be exactly what you would expect if the aircraft exceeded its structural G-limit, since not all the aircraft components are directly in line with the engines or the centre of thrust. Given, that there would probably be some damage from the battle with the X-9. However the point of contention is probably the G-limiter that Guld disabled-- was it to limit the aircraft from running itself to pieces, or limit the aircraft from killing the pilot? Or both? Modern aircraft are not built or tested beyond what their pilots can withstand-- with normal G-suits the (trained) human body can withstand +9.0/-3.0, so most modern fighter jets are built to that standard, with a safety factor of about 1.1-1.2 (i.e. Airframe probably rated for +10Gs max), it is only with the advent of the new liquid G suits that pilots can withstand around +12 Gs, so the new F-22 Raptor is (officially) rated to +11.0, IIRC. If the official stats of the YF-19/-21 give it a G-rating of +31.0/-17.5, I assume that some pilots would be able to take it to that limit, even if only a select few. That is probably why the YF-19 killed so many pilots, and why it was never put into widespread use. The lower G rating of the VF-25 is probably so that less pilots would be able to kill themselves.

[David Hingtgen]

F-22 doing a 12.8G+ turn: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bgaOrCYb7b0&fmt=18

[DarkReaper]

Damn that must have hurt like hell. Good thing the turn was done in 2 seconds otherwise he would have passed out so low to the ground.

[Mr March]

Well, Guld is half zentran, which could help with that. Also, it wasn't a constant acceleration, they were going all over the sky-- a series of instantaneous or near instantaneous large accelerations, if you will. Shear stress would also be exactly what you would expect if the aircraft exceeded its structural G-limit, since not all the aircraft components are directly in line with the engines or the centre of thrust. Given, that there would probably be some damage from the battle with the X-9. However the point of contention is probably the G-limiter that Guld disabled-- was it to limit the aircraft from running itself to pieces, or limit the aircraft from killing the pilot? Or both? Modern aircraft are not built or tested beyond what their pilots can withstand-- with normal G-suits the (trained) human body can withstand +9.0/-3.0, so most modern fighter jets are built to that standard, with a safety factor of about 1.1-1.2 (i.e. Airframe probably rated for +10Gs max), it is only with the advent of the new liquid G suits that pilots can withstand around +12 Gs, so the new F-22 Raptor is (officially) rated to +11.0, IIRC. If the official stats of the YF-19/-21 give it a G-rating of +31.0/-17.5, I assume that some pilots would be able to take it to that limit, even if only a select few. That is probably why the YF-19 killed so many pilots, and why it was never put into widespread use. The lower G rating of the VF-25 is probably so that less pilots would be able to kill themselves.

So now were into a discussion of the super human endurance limits of micloned Zentradi? No, I'm sorry, this dragging too far off point. At 32.5 gs for almost a minute, Guld would have to be from Krypton. And if we invoke "anime physics" to wish it all away, this whole discussion is mute by default.

Digressing, the VF-25 is fine at 27.5 gs because no earlier variable fighter could be piloted beyond a dozens gs anyway and Guld died doing so. But now the VF-25 and the VF-27 (with Brera) can safely pull dozens of gs without killing the pilot, which makes the VF-25 far superior in practice to the YF-19/YF-21. So I don't see a problem. However, if the ISC system's only limitation is the structural strength of the variable fighter itself (unknown at this time), then retrofitting an ISC into the VF-22S Sturmvogel II would produce a fighter capable of 60 gs without harming the pilot.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Mr March

[ChronoReverse]

Hold up, how do we know that the YF-19/-21 can't protect its pilot for more than a dozen g's? For that matter, is the g-limit number given for the VF-25 specifically what the it protects the pilot up to?

Incidentally, the g-limits aren't even necessarily the structural limits of the planes. For instance, other factors like the fuel flow can limit the g's too (one reason why the negative g-limit is lower).

Edited November 24, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[edwin3060]

So now were into a discussion of the super human endurance limits of micloned Zentradi? No, I'm sorry, this dragging too far off point. At 32.5 gs for almost a minute, Guld would have to be from Krypton. And if we invoke "anime physics" to wish it all away, this whole discussion is mute by default.

Digressing, the VF-25 is fine at 27.5 gs because no earlier variable fighter could be piloted beyond a dozens gs anyway and Guld died doing so. But now the VF-25 and the VF-27 (with Brera) can safely pull dozens of gs without killing the pilot, which makes the VF-25 far superior in practice to the YF-19/YF-21. So I don't see a problem. However, if the ISC system's only limitation is the structural strength of the variable fighter itself (unknown at this time), then retrofitting an ISC into the VF-22S Sturmvogel II would produce a fighter capable of 60 gs without harming the pilot.

No-- we are in a discussion of whether the lower G limits of the VF-25 render it less maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 and derivatives. My assertion is that, yes it is-- for maybe the top 1% of pilots who can take the YF-19/-21 to the G-limits. Others (like yourself) have said that it was impossible for any pilot to take the YF-19/-21 series to the G-limits anyway-- and I offer Guld as an example of someone who actually went beyond the capabilities of the YF-19/-21. As further evidence, I offer the scene where he was killed-- by compressive Gs, not negative Gs. Pulling Gs so hard that your arms crush your rib cage and your head implodes is wayy beyond the 30-40 G limits of the YF-21.

Frankly, I think that the notion that the VF-25 just has to be superior in every way to the YF-19/-21 series to be flawed. The VF-25 offers so many advantages other than maneuverability, and is probably more maneuverable (safely) for 99% of the pilots out there due to ISC-- I am arguing the case for the 1%, not the 99%.

Moving on, I find it interesting that the design paradigm of the VF-25 has moved back towards that of the VF-11-- only integral direct fire weaponry and with missile weaponry in extra pods that are not entirely atmosphere capable. It seems like the VF-25 and the VF-11 are both more optimized for space.

[Knight26]

The limiter that Guld disabled was likely the G-Limiter, much like they have in modern day aircraft. All modern day fighters can out-G their pilots, but software limiters are built into their flight control computers that keep the aircraft from doing so, except for instantaneous turns, and in the case of Russian Aircraft, they have a button on the stick that allows them to temporarily turn off the limiter. WHen Guld turned off that limiter it allowed him to take the YF-21 all the way up to its G-limit, now did he sustain those Gs, not likely, more then likely he would thrust and manuever quickly, recover for a few seconds, thrust and manuever quickly, recover, etc... until he made the final suicide strike. See, he set up a pattern that the Ghost learned, and then faked it out at the last instant bursting to the full G-limit just long enough to smash into the ghost at the cost of his own life, or maybe he arrogently thought he could survive it, but of course he couldn't.

As for the VF-25&27, if they have some kind of G-dampener in the cockpit then that would protect the pilot and allow the VF to reach more closely, or actually reach its G limit. This would allow the VF-25&27 to be more manueverable then the VF-19&22. And, as has been stated if that same system were to be incorporated into the VF-19&22, they probably would be able to outmanuever the VF-25&27 due to the fact that those two mecha were more resistant to G loads. Personnaly I think that would be hilarious to see in a sequel or second season, Alto and crew see a flight of VF-19&22s and think that they will be able to totally take them, but end up getting spanked because they have been refitted with the cockpit G-dampener.

[ChronoReverse]

Speaking of which, I do not believe the YF-21 exceeded it's g-limit (physical) anyway. Most of the damage before the collision is just heat damage from exceeding the atmospheric speed limit.

[Mr March]

No-- we are in a discussion of whether the lower G limits of the VF-25 render it less maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 and derivatives. My assertion is that, yes it is-- for maybe the top 1% of pilots who can take the YF-19/-21 to the G-limits. Others (like yourself) have said that it was impossible for any pilot to take the YF-19/-21 series to the G-limits anyway-- and I offer Guld as an example of someone who actually went beyond the capabilities of the YF-19/-21. As further evidence, I offer the scene where he was killed-- by compressive Gs, not negative Gs. Pulling Gs so hard that your arms crush your rib cage and your head implodes is wayy beyond the 30-40 G limits of the YF-21.

Frankly, I think that the notion that the VF-25 just has to be superior in every way to the YF-19/-21 series to be flawed. The VF-25 offers so many advantages other than maneuverability, and is probably more maneuverable (safely) for 99% of the pilots out there due to ISC-- I am arguing the case for the 1%, not the 99%.

Moving on, I find it interesting that the design paradigm of the VF-25 has moved back towards that of the VF-11-- only integral direct fire weaponry and with missile weaponry in extra pods that are not entirely atmosphere capable. It seems like the VF-25 and the VF-11 are both more optimized for space.

The discussion, such as it is, was never a debate about whether the number 27 is more or less than the number 32.

If Guld can sustain more gs than the YF-21 and he can do it for almost a minute it's time for the UNS/NUNS to breed full size Zentradi, strap on some Klan-style Super Parts and start mass production of the new Kal-El valkyrie. And it looked like Guld's "eyes", "stomach" and a cough of blood to me, no "imploding" ala Vampire Hunter D

Seriously, I'll stick with my original post about atmospheric shearing and battle damage. If the YF-21 exceeded 32.5 gs for a minute yet never yielded, then obviously 32.5 gs isn't the YF-21 limit. All that means is that the YF-21 never went beyond it's g limit, whatever that rating may be. The dialog confirms it; Guld states "cut out the limiter and take it to the edge." Edge, meaning not over, but to the edge. Once Guld states "another minute" they are out of the dogfight and into constant acceleration, so there is no break.

Speaking of which, I do not believe the YF-21 exceeded it's g-limit (physical) anyway. Most of the damage before the collision is just heat damage from exceeding the atmospheric speed limit.

Agreed.

The shearing damage was quite well depicted. It's actually interesting that they mention atmospheric shearing limit in the VF-25 Messiah trivia. I would guess that's Kawamori's way of limiting the acceleration of the VF-25 now that the pilots are protected from excessive gs through the ISC/Ex-Gear system. They need some kind of limitation in Macross otherwise they'll go off into Star Wars/Star Trek territory

[edwin3060]

The limiter that Guld disabled was likely the G-Limiter, much like they have in modern day aircraft. All modern day fighters can out-G their pilots, but software limiters are built into their flight control computers that keep the aircraft from doing so, except for instantaneous turns, and in the case of Russian Aircraft, they have a button on the stick that allows them to temporarily turn off the limiter. WHen Guld turned off that limiter it allowed him to take the YF-21 all the way up to its G-limit, now did he sustain those Gs, not likely, more then likely he would thrust and manuever quickly, recover for a few seconds, thrust and manuever quickly, recover, etc... until he made the final suicide strike. See, he set up a pattern that the Ghost learned, and then faked it out at the last instant bursting to the full G-limit just long enough to smash into the ghost at the cost of his own life, or maybe he arrogently thought he could survive it, but of course he couldn't.

As for the VF-25&27, if they have some kind of G-dampener in the cockpit then that would protect the pilot and allow the VF to reach more closely, or actually reach its G limit. This would allow the VF-25&27 to be more manueverable then the VF-19&22. And, as has been stated if that same system were to be incorporated into the VF-19&22, they probably would be able to outmanuever the VF-25&27 due to the fact that those two mecha were more resistant to G loads. Personnaly I think that would be hilarious to see in a sequel or second season, Alto and crew see a flight of VF-19&22s and think that they will be able to totally take them, but end up getting spanked because they have been refitted with the cockpit G-dampener.

Meh... we don't have evidence either way so lets just leave it at that. Enough of flogging a dead horse-- until SK or someone in the know says definitively or otherwise that the VF-25 is more maneuverable than the YF-19/-21 series, all the hard data we have indicates that the YF-19/-21 is more maneuverable than the VF-25. The insistence that the VF-25 must be more maneuverable despite its lower G-rating seems pretty misplaced to me, and a product of the 'its new so it must be better' syndrome.

Now, on to something new! I just got my GNU-DOUs.. all three (-11/-19/-21) and I must say that they are gorgeous! To prevent this from becoming a toy thread though, I noticed something interesting about the mecha data they have on the back. The YF-19 is stated to have a thrust of 56,500 kg x2, while the YF-21 is stated to have a thrust of 41,200 kg (atmosphere)/ 65,200 kg (space). Checking both the Macross Compendium and the Macross Mecha Manual, I see that the 56,500 kg stat was replaced--- so I was wondering when were the engines of the YF-19 upgraded/changed? Is there any canon book that stated the change? Is Yamato correct, or did it make a small, though noticeable mistake?

Edited November 24, 2008 by edwin3060

[Mr March]

We're probably going to get slapped with "off-topic" so perhaps the YF-19 engine question is best left for a new thread

[azrael]

It may be best to note that the VF-25F/S kit manual uses "design" and not "ultimate" to describe it's load limit. By design, its load limit is that amount indicated. But it's not necessarily the ultimate limit where it would snap into many many pieces (of which you'll probably have to factor in speed, weight, etc of the time it broke into many pieces).

This is also a good time to remind us that newer products don't have to be faster or carry more weapons, etc. than their predecessors. The VF-25 and VF-27 incorporate EX-Gear (the latter still up for debate) and ISCs to compensate for stress on the pilot. Having EX-Gear also gives the pilot a better ejection system than the previous sitting-duck-escape pods. The VF-25 and VF-27 still perform about the same within atmosphere compared to their predecessors.

[edwin3060]

It may be best to note that the VF-25F/S kit manual uses "design" and not "ultimate" to describe it's load limit. By design, its load limit is that amount indicated. But it's not necessarily the ultimate limit where it would snap into many many pieces (of which you'll probably have to factor in speed, weight, etc of the time it broke into many pieces).

That's just playing semantics games-- its not like they will release new and improved "ultimate" g-limits for the VF-25 right? Afterall, this is Macross, not Gundam 00 with its Trans-Am system.

This is also a good time to remind us that newer products don't have to be faster or carry more weapons, etc. than their predecessors. The VF-25 and VF-27 incorporate EX-Gear (the latter still up for debate) and ISCs to compensate for stress on the pilot. Having EX-Gear also gives the pilot a better ejection system than the previous sitting-duck-escape pods. The VF-25 and VF-27 still perform about the same within atmosphere compared to their predecessors.

Exactly my point! On the topic of the VF-27, it seems to be a VF that doesn't get much love in this thread. One interesting note is how there seems to be a "hypersonic (heat?) barrier" for VFs in the lower atmosphere-- VFs don't go much faster than Mach 5. It looks like despite all the advantages of energy converting armour, there is one area where Overtechnology couldn't solve the problems. One thing though: If it is true that the VF-27 could use its PPB to withstand short bursts at Mach 9, why can't the VF-25 use its PPB for the same thing? Is the VF-27 able to generate a whole fuselage PPB versus the limited area PPB for the VF-25?

[ChronoReverse]

Could be the whole integrated vs FAST packs thing. The VF-27 has everything in one package (and thus a great deal of PPBs in comparison to the stock VF-25). The VF-25 likely would have only minimal PPBs (perhaps just one) and relies on the booster packs to provide more (I'm basing this idea on how the Full Armor VF-25 can even project barriers).

[Mr March]

This is also a good time to remind us that newer products don't have to be faster or carry more weapons, etc. than their predecessors. The VF-25 and VF-27 incorporate EX-Gear (the latter still up for debate) and ISCs to compensate for stress on the pilot.

That was my original point, the new technologies like ISC (Inertia Store Converter) are allowing pilots to sustain far more gs than previous era pilots anyway. Who cares if the VF-25's g-limit is 5 gs less than the YF-21 when the simple fact is the ISC/Ex-Gear system grants the VF-25 Messiah pilot protection/endurance that no other previous generation fighter has. The VF-25 Messiah can be piloted at 27 gs 99% of the time while everyone else in their VF-171s, VF-19s and VF-22s are limited to roughly the 12 gs an unprotected pilot can sustain 99% of the time. The VF-25 doesn't need a superior g-limit to be practically superior to all the earlier valkyries; the ISC/Ex-Gear system ensures that all other factors being equal, the VF-25 will rule the battlefield. Obviously Brera in the VF-27 is a unique case, though the other VF-27 pilots no doubt use the ISC/Ex-Gear system as well (unless they are all cyborgs too).

Edited November 24, 2008 by Mr March

[edwin3060]

That was my original point, the new technologies like ISC (Inertia Store Converter) are allowing pilots to sustain far more gs than previous era pilots anyway. Who cares if the VF-25's g-limit is 5 gs less than the YF-21 when the simple fact is the ISC/Ex-Gear system grants the VF-25 Messiah pilot protection/endurance that no other previous generation fighter has. The VF-25 Messiah can be piloted at 27 gs 99% of the time while everyone else in their VF-171s, VF-19s and VF-22s are limited to roughly 12 gs an unprotected pilot can sustain 99% of the time. The VF-25 doesn't need a superior g-limit to be practically superior to all the earlier valkyries; the ISC/Ex-Gear system ensures that all other factors being equal, the VF-25 will rule the battlefield. Obviously Brera in the VF-27 is a unique case, though the other VF-27 pilots no doubt use the ISC/Ex-Gear system as well (unless they are all cyborgs too).

Agree with the first part, disagree with the second part-- we have no idea how advanced G-suits are by the 2050s, we just know that the Ex-Gears are an improvement. Overtechnology could very well have increased G-limits for G-suits that the not-so-unprotected pilots are wearing. Frankly, until we know the G-limits for the VF-27, there is no evidence either for or against the assertion that the elite pilots of the YF-19/-21 series couldn't use their VF to their G-limits.

(Out-of-universe, I think S.K. realized how insane +60/-45 G limits are and the VF-25 is an attempt to bring the G limits down to more believable levels)

I suspect that the other VF-27 pilots are cyborgs as well, since they also originated from the M-Galaxy fleet.

Edited November 24, 2008 by edwin3060

[Mr March]

That goes without saying, but one ins't going to get more than a few gs out of a suit (this is excluding the VF-15 biological anti-G boost system, the absence of which obviously means it wasn't a technology worth pursuing beyond that one valkyrie). Ultimately the pilot has been the limiting factor in all variable fighters, a theme which Kawamori focused upon with Macross Plus and Macross 7. It's clear with Macross Frontier, Kawamori has removed that limitation and the VF-25 Messiah/VF-27 Lucifer are a step beyond.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Mr March

[edwin3060]

Could be the whole integrated vs FAST packs thing. The VF-27 has everything in one package (and thus a great deal of PPBs in comparison to the stock VF-25). The VF-25 likely would have only minimal PPBs (perhaps just one) and relies on the booster packs to provide more (I'm basing this idea on how the Full Armor VF-25 can even project barriers).

Interesting. I guess the VF-27 is the next step in the YF-19/-21 paradigm for VFs and the VF-25 is the extension of the VF-1 design paradigm

[azrael]

Agree with the first part, disagree with the second part-- we have no idea how advanced G-suits are by the 2050s, we just know that the Ex-Gears are an improvement. Overtechnology could very well have increased G-limits for G-suits that the not-so-unprotected pilots are wearing.

Considering that we have the EX-Gear system and ISCs in this generation of fighters would indicate to me that g-suits have either hit their pinnacle or only so much can be done with a suit.

[Mr March]

Considering that we have the EX-Gear system and ISCs in this generation of fighters would indicate to me that g-suits have either hit their pinnacle or only so much can be done with a suit.

I would think so. I can understand why Kawamori decided to go with the ISC, because there really is no way to get around the inherent limitations of the human body. The only other alternative was cybernetics (Brera) or genetic manipulation, in which case Macross starts becoming something else entirely, with pilots sprouting more muscles than the human body has (perish the thought!). Fist of the Macross?

[edwin3060]

Considering that we have the EX-Gear system and ISCs in this generation of fighters would indicate to me that g-suits have either hit their pinnacle or only so much can be done with a suit.

Yes, but apparently the g-suit pinnacle included pilots being able to withstand +60/-45Gs-- this is the point I am trying to make. Look, until there is official in-universe data that the VF-22 couldn't achieve its design G-limits with a human pilot in it, we have to assume that it can, because this is the data that we have. There is simply no point in arguing that for 99% of the pilots, the VF-25 is better. I agree with that as well. Like I have stated before, I am arguing the extreme case-- which is what you have to do when faced with elite pilots in the most maneuverable VF the Macross universe has ever seen.

That is why the G-limits of the VF-27 is so important. The VF-27 places an upper limit on what the non-enhanced human body can tolerate, which, if this limit is less than the stated design limits for the VF-22, would mean that the YF-19/-21 derivatives, like you said, cannot be flown to the limit by its pilots, then human limitations come into play, and the VF-25 could potentially outfly the VF-22 with the same pilot in both because the EX-gear allows the pilot to pull higher Gs in the VF-25. In which case there would be no explanation as to why the YF-19/-21 and derivatives are so overbuilt by a factor of 2 or more.

If, on the other hand, the VF-27 has limits greater than the VF-22, then the possibility still exists that for that elusive 0.01% of pilots who can tolerate +60/-45Gs in the most advanced G-suit short of the EX-Gear, who can then outfly the VF-25 with the VF-22 because the VF-22 is more maneuverable.

Distilled down, it is this: I am arguing from the data of the VF-22, and the assertion that it would be idiotic to have design limits for a plane that is twice what the pilot could ever reach; hence, the pilot (regardless of whether he is the only one in the universe who could do so) must have been able to withstand +60/-45. Those who assert that the VF-25 is more maneuverable for most pilots are missing the point of my argument entirely.

Edited November 24, 2008 by edwin3060

[ChronoReverse]

Eh, a design limit higher than the human body can sustain isn't necessarily bad. Being able to pulse a great acceleration is still an advantage even if it's not feasible to sustain it even for a second.

Furthermore, more thrust has benefits beyond just acceleration. There's still things like payload that would benefit from massive thrust to the point where the physically possible acceleration is far higher than a human body could take.

Incidentally, I'm surprised there hasn't been any kind of total fluid suspension g-dampening system in Macross. While that might not be reasonable for a frontline fighter, special ops fighters would be perfectly suited for it. Another possibility would be some sort of aerogel system.

Edited November 24, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[Final Vegeta]

Exactly. Or to use a Macross example, the VF-3000 and VF-5000 have number designations that far exceed anything from the VF-1 to the VF-25, but they are by no means faster or more powerful.

Except in this case there are no weird numbers.

Frankly, I think that the notion that the VF-25 just has to be superior in every way to the YF-19/-21 series to be flawed. The VF-25 offers so many advantages other than maneuverability, and is probably more maneuverable (safely) for 99% of the pilots out there due to ISC-- I am arguing the case for the 1%, not the 99%.

I think the VF-25 has weaker armor, because even the FAST Packs appear to add more armor than usual.

Other than that, I must note that we talked about manuevers within atmosphere, but in space you need vernier thrusters to properly manuever, thus a vernier thruster superiority is not to overlook.

FV