Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[edwin3060]

You must really like to insult people and their intelligence. You do realize that all you're doing is alienating yourself, and making it less likely that people will attempt to have an intelligent discussion with you now, or in the future, right?

=) Not at all! I think what I have written speaks for itself, and when the majority opinion is clearly wrong I don't see why I should keep quiet. I haven't been throwing insults around or anything, just pointing out some people's mistakes. When my mistakes are pointed out I come out and admit it, I don't ignore it and pretend it never happened, or hide behind public opinion.

[Final Vegeta]

=) Not at all! I think what I have written speaks for itself, and when the majority opinion is clearly wrong I don't see why I should keep quiet. I haven't been throwing insults around or anything, just pointing out some people's mistakes. When my mistakes are pointed out I come out and admit it, I don't ignore it and pretend it never happened, or hide behind public opinion.

Personally, and take this as constructive criticism, I think people weren't bought by your secret speed stat for the VF-19. Especially since it appears the max speed is clearly limited by altitude. The fact the reason was made explicit for the first time only years later with the stats of the VF-25 is nothing to be unexpected, even the SWAG armor was made explicit only with Macross Zero, but it was conceived long before. As long as you keep associating yourself with the idea of a secret speed stat it will be difficult to take you seriously

I also admit I didn't quite get what the scenery of confrontation between the VF-19 and the VF-25 would be. You proposed a Mach 5 duel at 10,000 m, but I mantain it is impossible to keep the same speed. Maneuvering is done by increasing drag in certain areas of a plane, therefore the plane's speed would drop, unless it pulls maneuver that allow to recover some speed with the help of gravity, but those maneuvers would change altitude thus nullifying the existing preconditions. Shaking off the enemy from the tail also requires to move like the end of a whip, slipping and skidding in the air, and that results in slowing down, which you forbade. In conclusion, it would be something so theoretical it would mean nothing on the battlefield, especially since we have to factor in even rear facing turrets and transformation.

But please, get yourself a good avatar first

FV

[Zinjo]

Right... get back to me when your dream retcon has occured

Not necessarily. I would suspect that Kawamori may have done some research into the matter of how g forces would affect airframes and found out that there are limits. If the latest greatest fighter is subject to the affects of physics, all its predecessors would be also. There is no reason to believe the VF-25 has been built with less effective materials than the VF-19...

Kawamori does retcon, fortunately he minimizes it (or his staff points it out to him )...

[anime52k8]

Right... get back to me when your dream retcon has occured

You still hurt that I disproved you with your own mathematics?

Alright already, we get that you'll argue a point to the grave and you're willing to be a dick and alienate everyone else on the board in order to win. Good for you, now can you please shut up and give us back our thread already?!?

[edwin3060]

Personally, and take this as constructive criticism, I think people weren't bought by your secret speed stat for the VF-19. Especially since it appears the max speed is clearly limited by altitude. The fact the reason was made explicit for the first time only years later with the stats of the VF-25 is nothing to be unexpected, even the SWAG armor was made explicit only with Macross Zero, but it was conceived long before. As long as you keep associating yourself with the idea of a secret speed stat it will be difficult to take you seriously

I also admit I didn't quite get what the scenery of confrontation between the VF-19 and the VF-25 would be. You proposed a Mach 5 duel at 10,000 m, but I mantain it is impossible to keep the same speed. Maneuvering is done by increasing drag in certain areas of a plane, therefore the plane's speed would drop, unless it pulls maneuver that allow to recover some speed with the help of gravity, but those maneuvers would change altitude thus nullifying the existing preconditions. Shaking off the enemy from the tail also requires to move like the end of a whip, slipping and skidding in the air, and that results in slowing down, which you forbade. In conclusion, it would be something so theoretical it would mean nothing on the battlefield, especially since we have to factor in even rear facing turrets and transformation.

But please, get yourself a good avatar first

FV

What secret speed stat are you talking about? I posted everything from Macross Compendium! All my arguments are based entirely on the data garnered from the Compendium, so if there are any secrets, its on your part.

Also, I answered your second point, with the assertion that even considering drag forces, the canards of the VF-19 would give it an advantage in maneuvering in the atmosphere, ensuring that it conserves energy better during maneuvers, which is basically what ACM is all about.

Maybe if you read my arguments properly, without your own preconceived notions, you could actually understand them .

[Final Vegeta]

What secret speed stat are you talking about? I posted everything from Macross Compendium! All my arguments are based entirely on the data garnered from the Compendium, so if there are any secrets, its on your part.

The idea that the cruising speed at 10,000 m is not the max speed, because it's worded as a "cruising" speed.

As you can see though we've annoyed people enough, so it's time for a truce

FV

[David Hingtgen]

Never mind the fact that most planes I'm familiar with have a cruise speed, max cruise speed, and max speed...

Eg, 747-100: Cruises Mach .86, Max cruise Mach .92, Max speed Mach .98.

[Mr March]

By the way, let's remind that in Macross 7 we got a VF-1 upgraded to the level of a VF-11 (a VF-1X). It's not like the original VF-1 itself had performance equal to that of a VF-11 And even then there are areas that can be upgraded, like the aerodynamic response.

FV

I can make no sense of this post.

There are so many cannon fodder VF-11s being destroyed in M7 I was just wondering how much money was lost due to that.

Lots

Seriously, there is no cost per unit for a VF-11C Thunderbolt, so we don't know how much money the Protodeviln War cost the Macross 7 fleet. We do know the Macross 7 fleet had some 1,800 variable fighters (mostly VF-11C Thunderbolts) and could build more in times of war, so despite loosing a lot of fighters, the UN Spacy did have a rather large stockpile of VFs.

[sketchley]

What secret speed stat are you talking about? I posted everything from Macross Compendium! All my arguments are based entirely on the data garnered from the Compendium, so if there are any secrets, its on your part.

(...)

Maybe if you read my arguments properly, without your own preconceived notions, you could actually understand them .

Quid pro quo.

I'm still waiting for you to provide the source for the Compendium's info. (Like I did for the VF-25's info... but wait, that was when you were insulting my intelligence by trying to tell me what I had written in English. )

[Final Vegeta]

Never mind the fact that most planes I'm familiar with have a cruise speed, max cruise speed, and max speed...

Yeah, but with Valkyries only altitude allows you to reach max speed (within atmosphere, that is).

FV

[sketchley]

Yeah, but with Valkyries only altitude allows you to reach max speed (within atmosphere, that is).

FV

Erm, shouldn't that be "within an atmosphere, altitude limits the maximum achieveable speed without adverse effect on the VF"? (and without employing other systems to minimize heat damage).

[Final Vegeta]

Erm, shouldn't that be "within an atmosphere, altitude limits the maximum achieveable speed without adverse effect on the VF"? (and without employing other systems to minimize heat damage).

Shouldn't you say "When I left you I was but the learner of semantics, now I am the master"?

To which I should reply "I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine". I've got a memory hole to what should happen next, but I am left with a hopeful attitude

FV

[edwin3060]

Quid pro quo.

I'm still waiting for you to provide the source for the Compendium's info. (Like I did for the VF-25's info... but wait, that was when you were insulting my intelligence by trying to tell me what I had written in English. )

Ermm. As far as SK is concerned, the Compendium is the canon source of Macross info for the English speaking world. Unless you can point to Japanese translations that directly contradict what I have already posted from the Compendium?

P.S. I did explain it in one of my posts previously.

[edwin3060]

As to the whole atmospheric heat limit thing, IIRC the F-22 is materials (i.e. heat) limited to Mach 2.0 due to its RAM coating. It certainly isn't thrust/drag limited to that speed (although it might be intake limited, but I digress). My point is, SK may have been inspired by this situation where the F-15 is not heat limited (and can reach Mach 2.5) whereas the F-22 is limited to 2.0 and decided to throw it into Macross Frontier.

I'm still trying to figure out if his (SK) statement that the US was buying old Israeli warplanes for battle analysis and coming up with new aircraft was a mistransposed translation or him showing his age

[Killer Robot]

Never mind the fact that most planes I'm familiar with have a cruise speed, max cruise speed, and max speed...

Eg, 747-100: Cruises Mach .86, Max cruise Mach .92, Max speed Mach .98.

That's the point I was making before: in real planes "cruising speed" is based on the particular plane's fuel economy curve at a given altitude and load, while maximum speed is based on actual safe and economical long-term operation of the aircraft frame/engines/handling/etc. Since VFs and similarly fusion-powered aircraft in atmosphere have no meaningful range limits, only the last really is important.

Further, since no VF has both a cruising and a maximum speed listed(Those from Macross Plus have "max cruising", those from 7 have "cruising standard", those before and after have "maximum" and with different phrasings besides), it's reasonable to assume that the multiple different phrasings all apply to the same number.

Actually, double-checking, the YF-19 and YF-21 both have "Cruising" and "Max Cruising" speeds listed, but "Cruising" is under Mach 2 for both, and "Max Cruising" is slightly over Mach 5. So I take back there being only one number for each craft. All the same, I think it makes it all the more clear that the highest practical speed on a given model of VF is just named differently according to which series it appeared in.

[sketchley]

(...) All the same, I think it makes it all the more clear that the highest practical speed on a given model of VF is just named differently according to which series it appeared in.

Or by who translated it.

[hobbes221]

Okay this has been bugging from the first time I saw the VF-25 and it's not that big of a deal, it's just driving me crazy but does anyone else think that the frame where the wind screen and canopy meet would right in the pilot's forward field of view? Here's what I'm talking about

Sorry for the random moment here

[badboy00z]

I think max. cruising speed and max. speed should be the only ones to consider since VFs can probably cruise at any speed they want.

[David Hingtgen]

hobbes--that's because the kit has a 1/100 pilot or so. If the pilot was correctly scaled, he'd easily see above the frame.

[hobbes221]

hobbes--that's because the kit has a 1/100 pilot or so. If the pilot was correctly scaled, he'd easily see above the frame.

Really? (not that I don't believe you) Even in the series it looked a little off to me and I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of looking above the frame in level flight. Might have to get some wire and cardboard to slap a quick and dirty mock-up together for kicks.

And thinking about it some more I guess it's better than having a three piece wind screen like a F-14 or worse, an F-4. Just got spoiled by ones like on the F-16 and F-22

Thanks for the info.

[anime52k8]

hobbes--that's because the kit has a 1/100 pilot or so. If the pilot was correctly scaled, he'd easily see above the frame.

I find it kind of odd and interesting that SK decided to include a separate windscreen on the VF-25. as far as I can tell No other valk has this particular set up except for the Variable Glaug.

[hobbes221]

I find it kind of odd and interesting that SK decided to include a separate windscreen on the VF-25. as far as I can tell No other valk has this particular set up except for the Variable Glaug.

The VF-0 uses the same set up as well.

[DarkReaper]

In the show the cockpit view shows them looking under the frame. Anime magic FTW. You couldn't see anything through that tiny slit it leaves you.

[sketchley]

Most of the time they're looking at the HUD, helmet displays, or even canopy displays (can't remember if it was shown in series, or not. Been standard on VF's since DYRL.)

[edwin3060]

In the show the cockpit view shows them looking under the frame. Anime magic FTW. You couldn't see anything through that tiny slit it leaves you.

Which means that Bandai's 1/100 pilots for the 1/72 VF-25 should've been 1/144 pilots then

But yea, I wish he'd gone with a one piece canopy like the F-22. Or at most 2 piece like the F-16.

P.S. With the new JHMCS for the F-35, the pilot is basically looking at the inside of his faceplate/goggles anyway.

Edited February 26, 2009 by edwin3060

[DarkReaper]

Looking at those JHMCS pics I found this pic of the F-18. It has a similar canopy to the VF-25, and if it works for them it works for the VF-25 as well. The rest are scaling issues.

Edited February 26, 2009 by DarkReaper

[Mr March]

Given that the VF-25 Messiah cockpit utilizes holographic tracking displays (seen in the first episode of Macross Frontier, in Ozma's VF-25S), the cockpit could probably be opaque and it wouldn't matter. In fact, Valkyries like the Variable Glaug, Varauta Fighters and the VF-27 (perhaps not the best example due to the "virtual cockpit") all use opaque cockpits. In SDF Macross, Hikaru also flew his VF-1J Valkyrie through the atmosphere with the heat shield closed.

I think in light of the multi-screen displays (most Battroids), holographic/volumetric images (VF-1 block 6 cockpits and later), wrap-around imaging monitors (YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur, VF-17 Nightmare, VF-25 Messiah), brain-direct imaging system (YF-21) and virtual cockpit (VF-27 Lucifer), transparent cockpit canopies are really just a stylistic holdover that are totally unnecessary in a technical sense. Macross mecha appear perfectly operable without any kind of window, with little impact upon a pilot's situational awareness.

[Zinjo]

I think in light of the multi-screen displays (most Battroids), holographic/volumetric images (VF-1 block 6 cockpits and later), wrap-around imaging monitors (YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur, VF-17 Nightmare, VF-25 Messiah), brain-direct imaging system (YF-21) and virtual cockpit (VF-27 Lucifer), transparent cockpit canopies are really just a stylistic holdover that are totally unnecessary in a technical sense. Macross mecha appear perfectly operable without any kind of window, with little impact upon a pilot's situational awareness.

Unless the Vajra disrupt your electronics and you have to manually glide to a safe landing spot. Then they become a little less stylistic...

[edwin3060]

Unless the Vajra disrupt your electronics and you have to manually glide to a safe landing spot. Then they become a little less stylistic...

Well, if the Varja got so close to your capital ships you're kind of screwed anyway, given that ridiculous antiship cannons that the red adult versions have. Better to float around in space than land and get blown up along with your carrier!

[anime52k8]

Given that the VF-25 Messiah cockpit utilizes holographic tracking displays (seen in the first episode of Macross Frontier, in Ozma's VF-25S), the cockpit could probably be opaque and it wouldn't matter. In fact, Valkyries like the Variable Glaug, Varauta Fighters and the VF-27 (perhaps not the best example due to the "virtual cockpit") all use opaque cockpits. In SDF Macross, Hikaru also flew his VF-1J Valkyrie through the atmosphere with the heat shield closed.

I think in light of the multi-screen displays (most Battroids), holographic/volumetric images (VF-1 block 6 cockpits and later), wrap-around imaging monitors (YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur, VF-17 Nightmare, VF-25 Messiah), brain-direct imaging system (YF-21) and virtual cockpit (VF-27 Lucifer), transparent cockpit canopies are really just a stylistic holdover that are totally unnecessary in a technical sense. Macross mecha appear perfectly operable without any kind of window, with little impact upon a pilot's situational awareness.

technically the Variable Glaug has a glass cockpit if it's the human sized version. Anyways even with all the different simulated view systems, I think having a glass canopy still makes a lot of seance. First off, It's probebly a good idea to have a glass canopy at least as a backup so that if something happens like say you're BDI loses connection, the camera feeding you're monitor/holographic display gets shot out, one of you're monitors goes dead etc. etc.

having a Glass canopy is cheaper and more reliable than all kinds of fancy projection systems and simulated views. it also in valks like the VF-25 and VF-17, even if you do have holographic HUD type display being projected to mark out objects and targets and what not, it's not going to hurt anything to still have the canopy free of seams or supports in the pilots field of view.

I Just find it odd that they would ever choose to give a valk a canopy that has big supports in the pilots field of view when they are clearly and regularly shown to be able to make one piece canopies for valks. Sure they may not NEED to have glass canopies but it doesn't hurt and would have it's benefits.

[hobbes221]

I was giving the whole canopy/wind screen thing some thought and something hit me. In F-16s and F-22s the HUD glass is, IIRC designed to act as small wind screen in the event that the canopy is punched off so the pilot is not hit with the full force of the air rushing at them, so as most all VFs do not use HUDs (I mean the type that most fighters have today with the combiner glass right in the front of the pilot), the small bit of wind screen on the -25 might be there to serve that roll. We did see Alto fly the -25 for the first time without the canopy, think of what it would have been like were not for the head gear from his EX-Gear and that small bit in front of him. Anyways just a thought, and as he designed the cockpit as a two-seater I think the canopy break might have been just to make the opened canopy not look so long. (but there are a few shots/bugs that have both pieces of the canopy together in the up position)

[miles316]

Ever since I watched macross plus a few things have bothered me. First After Maij buys the psychotic micro chips he is seen putting something in the hotel safe was that the infamous chip, or had he already installed it in Sharon's core. That was just a few minutes before Guld gets the cryptic phone call telling him about the fire in the concert hall. Was Sharon already going insane or did he have more than one micro chip of death. Second in the last episode the SDF 1 actually takes off under its own power after Sharon takes it over. I thought that at the conclusion of the original show the ship was crippled why was it still armed with weapons(rail gun).

[RedWolf]

Ever since I watched macross plus a few things have bothered me. First After Maij buys the psychotic micro chips he is seen putting something in the hotel safe was that the infamous chip, or had he already installed it in Sharon's core. That was just a few minutes before Guld gets the cryptic phone call telling him about the fire in the concert hall. Was Sharon already going insane or did he have more than one micro chip of death. Second in the last episode the SDF 1 actually takes off under its own power after Sharon takes it over. I thought that at the conclusion of the original show the ship was crippled why was it still armed with weapons(rail gun).

The bio-neural chip was the last of a bunch of it already installed in Sharon Apple. Marge was well insane... Remember they needed Myung for Sharon to have emotions.

The reason bio-neural chips are illegal because they cause a self preservation psychology in the AI making it dangerous.

Marge was also installed the bio-neural chip to the X-9 Ghost. Much to his boss' horror.

Frankly the prime reason why Sharon Apple went berserk is because she was infected with a human psyche.

We don't really know if the X-9 Ghost would be terminator-esque dangerous as predicted. Luca used the same Judah system without the human psyche installed.

What happens is a battle between the V-9 Ghost with AI controlled by Grace and Macross Galaxy and a pure untainted AI cared for by Luca.

Basically it is a KARR, KITT and KRO scenarios. Using Knight Rider terms.

KARR was programmed for self preservation, KITT was programmed to protect human life at all cost especially its driver Michael, KRO was a blank slate infected by his partner's insanity.

Luca's Ghosts Johann, Simone, and Pietro was closer to KITT since they fought tooth and nail to protect him.

While self preservation instinct does make them on par or better than the V-9 Ghosts.

[miles316]

Was Sharon gust a cover for the development of the AI for the ghost fighter? Marge was buying a bunch of those killer chips of doom, and they had the meeting in the clean room so he could verify that it was a real bio-neural chip by installing it in Sharon. Sharon went off her rocker shortly their after, and hatching the bizarre scheme to screw with Isamu and Guld. Does this chain of events work?

[RedWolf]

Was Sharon gust a cover for the development of the AI for the ghost fighter? Marge was buying a bunch of those killer chips of doom, and they had the meeting in the clean room so he could verify that it was a real bio-neural chip by installing it in Sharon. Sharon went off her rocker shortly their after, and hatching the bizarre scheme to screw with Isamu and Guld. Does this chain of events work?

The guy happily jumped from a flying Macross. The guy is definitely off his rocker. He killed his boss when he realised bio-neural chips were being installed on the X-9 Ghost.

But his real goal is to give Sharon Apple sentience.

Edited February 27, 2009 by RedWolf