Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[DarkReaper]

Are you sure that フォッカー is spelled with a long O?

The way I see it the correct romanization is Fokka. The shi-modifier causes the o to be short. Just spell it like Fock-ka.

Edited February 1, 2009 by DarkReaper

[azrael]

Folks, why are we talking about name romanization in the mecha thread (hint hint).

[Gubaba]

Are you sure that フォッカー is spelled with a long O?

The way I see it the correct romanization is Fokka. The shi-modifier causes the o to be short. Just spell it like Fok-ka

It's a "tsu," not a "shi." And it doesn't turn it into an English-style short "o."

Just watch SDFM, DYRL, or MacZero again, and listen to how they say his name. It's F-OH-ker, not F-AH-ker.

[DarkReaper]

Ok my mystake it's a tsu. They both just look the same.

However the spelling of Focker/Fokker changes sometimes. In Dyrl when Misa sends the emergency message to Focker in the shuttle at 37 minutes it has a long o and at 57 minutes in the tent it's more of a short o.

Furthermore I also heard it with a short o in several SDF episodes. Noticeably the preview lady always pronounces it with a short o. Maybe it's just a dialect issue.

Maybe I just get mixed up in all the various English pronounciations of o and whether it's classified as a short o or long o. Anyway it's a short o in German.

I am trying to find a video where you can hear the correct pronounciation of Fokker (the aircraft company) but unfortunately most of the videos on youtube are in english and spell it wrong.

[edit]Found one: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo7IWcfK9Sg&...feature=related at 6:20 minutes in. The quick cuts in that documentary are giving me a seizure, jeez.[/edit]

Btw, he is spelled Focker on his VF-0 in MacZero.

Edited February 1, 2009 by DarkReaper

[sketchley]

The difference in pronunciation for a lengthened vowel sound (which is not the case with フォッカー) and a non-lengthened vowel sound is how long the sound is continued. There is no change to the sound itself (as in English. For example: hop vs. hope). Fokkaa and Fookkaa both have the same "oh" sound.

Take care, if and when you speak Japanese, as the lengthening of a vowel sound does change the word (eg: ie (house) vs iie (no)).

The only dialect considerations are the complete vs partial pronunciations. (Eg: fi̥rɯ̥mɯ̥ desɯ̥ "It's a film" in Tokyo, vs. fuirumu desu in Kansai.).

Anyhow, taking azrael's hint, read up on Japanese pronunciation here: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~bestor/...onunciation.htm

Edited February 1, 2009 by sketchley

[Beltane70]

(Oh, and "meet the Fockers" was called "Meet the Parents 2" in Japan. Not very helpful, huh?)

You know, sometimes I hate the way they change foreign movie titles in Japan!

It also doesn't help that the compendium also has the spelling Focker. It's too damn confusing! Guess only Kawamori knows what the name's supposed to be.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Beltane70

[sketchley]

You know, sometimes I hate the way they change foreign movie titles in Japan!

It also doesn't help that the compendium also has the spelling Focker. It's too damn confusing! Guess only Kawamori knows what the name's supposed to be.

Who says the movie name changing happens only in Japan? Not to mention the same thing happens with entertainment imported into English speaking countries. The song "sukiyaki" comes to mind. (and this statement by no way implies that name changes doesn't happen between English speaking countries, either!)

Kawamori knows that フォッカー is supposed to be フォッカー. Isn't that all that's needed?

Anyhow, given that Fokker (or was it Focker?) appears in two different romanizations in DYRL, it really confuddles the issue. Anyone know of any English appearances of the name in SDF:M?

[azrael]

Obviously you guys don't take hints.

No more talk of name romanization. Talk about mecha/tech or don't talk at all.

[Killer Robot]

Since I think it would go outside the scope of the Newbie thread, I'm bumping my reply to here.

If the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is still a viable main line fighter for deployment in 2059, there's no way the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur and YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II are outdated. The Macross Compendium specifically says the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is actually a "downgraded" version of the original VF-17 Nightmare. The VF-17 Nightmare, while superior to the VF-11 Thunderbolt, was also significantly below the capabilities of the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur and YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II. Even with upgrades made over time to extend the service life of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, there's no way the VF-171 ever exceeded the performance capabilities of the VF-19/VF-22.

Granted, variable fighters will eventually become outdated, but comparatively speaking, the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur and YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II would still be very relevant designs in the 2059 era. Obviously, the VF-25 Messiah is superior to the VF-19/VF-22 when it comes to versatility, engine design and new technologies (ISC, EX-Gear, linear actuators). However, I would bet money that the VF-19/VF-22 still outperform even the enhanced VF-171EX Nightmare Plus. Just look at the statistics for the T-W ratios for all the fighters and compare them.

VF-11C Thunderbolt = 6.33

VF-17D Nightmare = 9.28

VF-19F Excalibur = 16.96

VF-22S Sturmvogel II = 13.96

VF-25F Messiah = 39.09

If the VF-171 Nightmare is a "downgraded" version of the VF-17 Nightmare meant for easier mass manufacture, then it's T-W ratio must be somewhere between the VF-11 and VF-17. Over the years, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus received improvements/modifications, so between it's introduction some time after 2047 to the events of Macross Frontier in 2059, the VF-171 may have eventually been upgraded enough to approach performance parity with the original VF-17 Nightmare. Now, if we assume the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus is an improved version of the "current" 2059 VF-171 Nightmare Plus (the Macross Compendium describes the VF-171EX as having "equipment improvements, strengthened armor, adoption of EX-Gear, enhanced engines, and MDE armaments") then it would have a T-W ratio somewhere beyond 9.28. But there is a long way to go before the VF-171EX can approach the T-W ratios of the VF-19F and the VF-22 Sturmvogel II. If I had to guess, I'd say at best the VF-171EX could perhaps MATCH the VF-19F and VF-22S in acceleration.

Having said that, this is all just a bunch of fancy guessing until official statistics appear for the VF-171. Weapons, armor strength, power, and everything else would be even more questions open to interpretation.

The hard part of the question is what "downgraded" means. If it means "absolutely everything across the board" or if it means "the T-W ratio specifically", I can agree, otherwise it gets pretty murky. Looking at what the VF-17 has, what the VF-171 is seen to have, and the intended role of the VF-171, some guesses can be made.

• Removed: Passive stealth features - The 171 lacks much its older sibling's strong F-117 cues, suggesting that it's not a stealth-focused design, or at most uses the post Super Nova active stealth systems. The fact that it's a mainline space fighter rather than a special operations fighter supports this. It's an obvious cost-cutting measure. Here's the trick though: since stealthing a design has strong potential costs in aerodynamics(for atmospheric use at least), effective engine performance, and extra weight/structure needed for stealthed covers for weapons systems, this means taking all this off not only saves money, but gives a chance to either improve straight-up combat performance or to cut costs further without actually impacting performance.
• Reduced: Armor - The VF-17 was a big, tough fighter. The VF-171 appears to be relatively lighter and more slender especially in battloid mode. With the addition of new PPB technology as introduced in the VF-19, the options were cutting armor, or else turning it into a total tank of a fighter through layered defense. For a mainline mass production fighter this was a no-brainer: trim things down, relying on the new tech to keep the 171 from being too vulnerable. Cutting armor cuts costs, but it also cuts weight. Again, this either increases your T-W if the engines are kept the same, or else allows reducing engine power without impacting net performance.
• Reduced: weapons load? - I'd have to go through to look carefully, but does the VF-171 have the amount of onboard standard weaponry the 17 does? As many onboard lasers, the same internal missile load? For something meant as a regular front line fighter trimming the bells and whistles would cut costs - reduce total firepower too, but the 17 seemed pretty heavily gunned so a bit less still wouldn't be bad for something operating in full squadrons rather than small special ops units.
• Reduced: engine capacity? - Here's one that's just too dependent on the rest for me to say anything. If the other changes reduced weight or power draw, there was a lot of headroom to reduce engine power without impacting flight performance significantly and the designers might well have taken it. But on the other hand, if the reason the 17 was so expensive and hard to mass produce was more in the other systems than the power plant, it might have been tempting to not touch that so much.

In the end, what a "downgraded" VF-17 means could be a lot of things. Most certainly it means in the VF-17s role as a special operations fighter: a stealthy and heavily armed powerhouse designed for small, elite units on special missions. A 171 that trimmed those features as well as the powerplant, keeping parity in flight performance would certainly be a cheaper downgrade. One that trimmed those features while keeping the same engine output on a lighter and more aerodynamic platform would also be a "downgrade" in terms of its overall capabilities and cost, but actually be an improvement in the narrower role of mainline fighter. In either case, I agree that the VF-171 isn't going to be flying rings around the VF-19 and VF-22, especially not in their own arenas of aerospace combat and special operations, and that the latter two fighters still have a strong role as of 2059. I also agree that the truth will have to wait for numbers. I just don't see any reason that flight performance, and T-W in particular, in the VF-171 would be any less than the VF-17: the things that most surely got cut weren't what made it fly better, they're what made it the flying ninja tank of its generation.

[sketchley]

IMHO, downgraded just means the use of more commonly manufactured (or easily available) components. Due to the economies of scale, they would be comparitively cheaper but otherwise offer a similar capability.

There may even be cases were the commonly manufactured components have a superior capability. For example, the leg micro-missile launchers - being standardized on a lot of other VFs or their FAST packs, they would be relatively cheaper, and being an internal component (as opposed to being a changeable component in a weapon pallet system that the VF-17 has in the same position), they could hold a couple to a few more micro-missiles than a launcher of the same in the weapon pallet system.

There are also upgrades to take into consideration. So, it may be possible for the "downgraded" VF-171 to meet or exceed the abilities and capabilities of a non-upgraded VF-17.

[Lethalzero]

downgraded might mean, non retractable seats... adjustable mirrors... leather seats.. @_@

[Killer Robot]

downgraded might mean, non retractable seats... adjustable mirrors... leather seats.. @_@

So what you're saying is that on the VF-171, heated seats and wood paneling are for squadron leaders only?

[badboy00z]

Squad leaders get MP3 players and surround sound as well.

[hobbes221]

Great!

Thanks a lot guys!

Now I have the image of a VF-171 taxing around on deck like a lowrider suck in my head

[Mr March]

The hard part of the question is what "downgraded" means. If it means "absolutely everything across the board" or if it means "the T-W ratio specifically", I can agree, otherwise it gets pretty murky. Looking at what the VF-17 has, what the VF-171 is seen to have, and the intended role of the VF-171, some guesses can be made.

*snip*

That all goes without saying. I'm just using the T-W ratio as an easy-to-follow example of comparable performance. We have no way of knowing what was "downgraded" for the mass manufacture version of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, so I just chose something I could quantitatively compare to make a point.

However, arguably the most difficult and expensive part of manufacturing a variable fighter would be the engines; they are a fusion reactor/rocket engine combination after all. So I would think if the VF-17 Nightmare was difficult and expensive to manufacture (speaking in context of Macross, of course) the engines would be one of the most complex components to be simplified and downgraded for a less expensive option. But that's just a guess.

Though the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is a main line fighter for the New UN Spacy, it's still described as a Heavy Variable Fighter and a Fighter/Bomber. This inherently implies that post Macross 7, the New UN Spacy decided to deploy heavy fighters rather than the light fighters they had been using since the VF-5000 Star Mirage first hit the scene. So I doubt it's weapons or armor was downgraded, since it would no longer be classified as a Heavy Fighter/Bomber if it had the armament and armor of a medium-to-light fighter. As far as I can determine, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus has all the weapons of the VF-17 Nightmare except the retractable/traversable medium-bore laser guns mounted in the arm units. The VF-171 Nightmare Plus also seems to have one less micro-missile launcher on the dorsal fuselage/shoulders, but some have suggested it has leg launchers. The passive stealth is likely gone since it seems the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is almost always deployed with underwing ordnance, defeating the purpose of such a stealth system. But other than that, who knows.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Mr March

[RedWolf]

Not to mention that beam gunpod attachment which Gamlin made a signature move for the VF-17 Nightmare.

Though VF-171 Nightmare Plus got its spiritual successor in Machida with the pin-point barrier punch.

Machida of Diamond Squadron made Diamond Force proud.

[The Saint]

The passive stealth is likely gone since it seems the VF-171 Nightmare Plus is almost always deployed with underwing ordnance, defeating the purpose of such a stealth system.

External ordinance degrades passive stealth performance from certain angles, it doesn't completely negate it. Also, making external ordinance more stealthy is not that difficult, especially in space, where passively stealthy surface geometry doesn't have to compromise with aerodynamic limitations. And really, Nightmare Plus still looks like it's got all the correct angled sides to be notably passively stealthy. At least, low observation as opposed to full stealth or full visibility, anyways.

The lack of/reduced number of internal micro-missiles bays on the Nightmare Plus might be extremely telling of its difference to the original Nightmare. If the Nightmare Plus has more internal volume to devote to other systems, it wouldn't require the same amount of miniaturization of its systems as the original Nightmare. Cheaper, bigger, simpler and bulkier engines in the Plus compared to more refined, sophisticated and compact engines (to make room for internal missile stores) in the original would certainly go a long way to explain any notion of downgrading.

In addition, if the original Nightmare was more stealthy than the Plus, it'd have to have extensive passive and low-intercept sensor systems to support that. Dumbing down the sensor system in the Plus would save a bundle and be a downgrade that wouldn't be reflected in the vehicle's physical performance.

At the same time, today, by the time a fighter design's prototype build finally rolls off the assembly line, it's already considerably outdated. At the rate which technology has been advancing in Macross, the time between the designs of the original Nightmare and the Nightmare Plus would've probably seen enough technological advances to make the two pretty equal in a straight-forward dogfight.

Edited February 11, 2009 by The Saint

[Zinjo]

In addition to Saint's points, we need to keep in mind that there is a generational aspect as well between the Nightmare and the Nightmare Plus.

What was once considered state of the art on the VF-17 is likely standard equipment on most VF's by 2059. As Sketley has stated, it's cheaper to build a fighter with "off the shelf" parts than it is to have one with proprietary parts that require manufacture to order.

If the sole purpose of the VF-171 was to allow Spacy to equip a colonization fleet quickly and economically, a fighter type with known capabilities is the best way to go. The UNG would be able to save on the majority of R&D costs and field an adapted fighter for initial protection, while any next gen fighters could be uploaded to the fleets, when they become available, for local manufacture later.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Zinjo

[Final Vegeta]

Oh, a speculation thread, my idea of fun

Well, it's clear that the VF-171 is no more Mr. Heavy Battroid. When you work with 3D, if you want a slender Fighter you will have a slender Battroid. The original VF-17 with a little of anime magic could manage to look tough, the VF-171 can't therefore ain't. The loss of armor was kinda compensated by the addiction of the PPB though, and the loss of weaponry by modular armament; the resulting inferior weight means more agility and speed.

Whether or not the VF-171 still employs passive stealth it's not terribly important in Macross where there is active stealth, and furthermore the VF-171 could still represent stealth shapes more aerodynamic like in the F-22. Mind that the VF-171 has kept the twisted intake design of its predecessor.

About the engines, the VF-17 already had decent engines, but with all the years between 7 and Frontier I expect the standards to be risen.

Summing up, I think the VF-171 is basically on par with a VF-19. This makes sense since the VF-25 is a monster with twice the engine output of a VF-19.

FV

[Killer Robot]

Summing up, I think the VF-171 is basically on par with a VF-19. This makes sense since the VF-25 is a monster with twice the engine output of a VF-19.

FV

That's more or less my guess: even going with the out of setting justification for the VF-171, it wasn't that SK thought the VF-19 was too capable for a main production valk, but that it looked too much like a hero mech; also the VF-25/27 are so far ahead of the 2040s designs that the VF-171 doesn't need to be another VF-11 to be the "old model" storywise. I expect the VF-19 has a distinct edge over the VF-171 for atmospheric combat and overall flexibility, and probably sees a lot wider use in colonies/fleets/installations where that flexibility is worth the price premium, but as a standard fleet escort fighter I don't imagine it is so big a difference.

[Zinjo]

That's more or less my guess: even going with the out of setting justification for the VF-171, it wasn't that SK thought the VF-19 was too capable for a main production valk, but that it looked too much like a hero mech; also the VF-25/27 are so far ahead of the 2040s designs that the VF-171 doesn't need to be another VF-11 to be the "old model" storywise. I expect the VF-19 has a distinct edge over the VF-171 for atmospheric combat and overall flexibility, and probably sees a lot wider use in colonies/fleets/installations where that flexibility is worth the price premium, but as a standard fleet escort fighter I don't imagine it is so big a difference.

Yeah I find it difficult to believe a colony program forking out big bucks to have a high end military fighter like the 19 as a mere colony escort, when its capabilities could be better utilized in active military service elsewhere.

That isn't to say Frontier didn't have the plans or was incapable of building VF-19s or VF-22s if necessary. I'm sure they could. The thing is that they had an SMS branch onboard and they were testing the latest LAI derivative of the VF-24, the VF-25 Messiah anyway...

[Fade Rathnik]

I bet the 19 is still the standard with the N.U.N. Air Force as some have observed before

[The Saint]

I bet the 19 is still the standard with the N.U.N. Air Force as some have observed before

They're probably garrisoning planets for the most part.

Not that there's anything wrong with being assigned to home guard duty. I agree with Killer Robot. Forward swept wings and canards would serve system defence units that encounter an atmosphere on a daily basis, as opposed to exploration or colonization escort units that spend most of their time looking for planets with atmosphere....

[Clay Cliff]

Look at this pic:

Image taken from Macross Chronicle Nº 9 (I think), it is a VF-0 cockpit... Is there a better pic? BTW, I thought that "Phoenix" was just a nickname, but in the magazine it is named VF-0 Phoenix, as if Phoenix was an official name. Best regards.

[Zinjo]

Look at this pic:

Image taken from Macross Chronicle Nº 9 (I think), it is a VF-0 cockpit... Is there a better pic? BTW, I thought that "Phoenix" was just a nickname, but in the magazine it is named VF-0 Phoenix, as if Phoenix was an official name. Best regards.

It's still a nick name as far as I'm aware. But you know fans, VF-0 just doesn't have the same romantic ring to it as Phoenix...

[wolfx]

BTW, I thought that "Phoenix" was just a nickname, but in the magazine it is named VF-0 Phoenix, as if Phoenix was an official name. Best regards.

Technically all names of the VFs were not official as they were never mentioned in the animations except the VF-1 valkyrie. The names were mentioned in supporting media like design works and art books. Strangely no such name for the VF-0 in the typical design works etc. No idea where Phoenix came from but the only "official" mention of Phoenix I saw was from a prototype of the DYRL PS2 game which later the VF-0 was scrapped as a usable valk.

[hobbes221]

Look at this pic:

Image taken from Macross Chronicle Nº 9 (I think), it is a VF-0 cockpit... Is there a better pic? BTW, I thought that "Phoenix" was just a nickname, but in the magazine it is named VF-0 Phoenix, as if Phoenix was an official name. Best regards.

It was posted awhile back and like a packrat I saved it on my HD so here you go.

[Clay Cliff]

It was posted awhile back and like a packrat I saved it on my HD so here you go.

Thanks a lot for the pic, I haven't seen it posted before. Best regards.

[Zinjo]

One thing that has ocurred to me lately is that the VF-27 could conceivably be the next gen Zentreadi fighter.

A Zentreadi with EX Gear and VF-25 flight controls could very well fly the Lucifer to it's full potential.

Currently a cyborg with implants is only capable, but considering the hardy nature of the Zentreadi physique, add the EX Gear and a set of VF-25 controls, it is possible.

[Master Dex]

One thing that has ocurred to me lately is that the VF-27 could conceivably be the next gen Zentreadi fighter.

A Zentreadi with EX Gear and VF-25 flight controls could very well fly the Lucifer to it's full potential.

Currently a cyborg with implants is only capable, but considering the hardy nature of the Zentreadi physique, add the EX Gear and a set of VF-25 controls, it is possible.

This is an intriguing thought, maybe there is a future for the Lucifer in fleets like Macross 5 that are mostly Zentradi.

[edwin3060]

If that was the case, and given that the G problems were already showing up with the YF-19 and YF-21, why aren't there more Zentraedi's flying VF-19s and VF-22s?

[RedWolf]

If that was the case, and given that the G problems were already showing up with the YF-19 and YF-21, why aren't there more Zentraedi's flying VF-19s and VF-22s?

So says they aren't? In miclone forms that is. Remember Algus Selzer developed the YF-21 and its successor VF-22. Guld created the predecessor to the interface systems we see in Macross Frontier.

[Killer Robot]

Has there really been any clear indication that Zentradi, at least in miclone form, are any tougher or more resilient than humans? All I can think of is the aside in the Frontier manga that little Klan had adultlike strength, and I'm not sure how serious I took that. Also Ranka's somewhat improved resistance to vacuum, but that's different than withstanding acceleration.

I have heard in the past that some mecha/vehicles were more popular with Zentradi pilots, but I gathered that it was because they handle similarly to Zentradi mecha, and so were more familiar to Zentradi who had begun in the uncultured fleets or just had been full-sized pilots then later went miclone. Meaning it was that they were easier to adjust to from past training and experience, rather than being better suited to unique features of Zentradi physiology.

[badboy00z]

They're physically stronger than humans in miclone form.

[David Hingtgen]

Just look at Ranka--she's only 1/4 Zentradi, yet has higher tolerances for being exposed to space. Full Zentradi should be significantly "superior".