Macross Frontier Mecha/Technology Thread IV *Read 1st Post*

[edwin3060]

It's possible that the ISC totally insulates the pilot from acceleration within its limits, or that it simply lessens perceived acceleration such that, say, a VF-25 pilot pulling 27g only feels under 9g or what have you. Either way isn't deeply important: the main idea is that this suggests that in a ISC-equipped VF the pilot is no longer the weaker link. This means that during intensive maneuvers cumulative airframe stress becomes something that needs to be tracked by the fighter's systems, in much the same way that a modern fighter has to track fuel - right up to and including how the higher you throttle up the faster that gauge is going to go down. The same thing is true with the VF-27 simply using cyborg pilots.

Either way, the new generation of VFs apparently takes the effective endurance of the pilot far beyond the prior limits of g-suits and cockpit restraints, and that causes a significant change in how variable fighters need to be designed, piloted, and deployed. It's certainly the biggest single change to variable fighter tactics since the introduction of the Project Super Nova technologies with the VF-19, and possibly even since the introduction of thermonuclear engines with the VF-1.

Not, mind, that it's going to be a game changer as storytelling and presentation goes: Macross is too heavily built on the romance of the fighter pilot of the jet era for that.

Exactly what I was saying, just phrased better. Thanks

And hey, I still think the S is the luxury package. Upgraded upholstery and radio, man. More seriously, I do appreciate that in Frontier the brightly colored models with special gear piloted by major characters aren't higher class hero mechs, but rather were support-focused models for the two junior pilots on the team (before Alto came in to replace Gilliam, at least.)

I was re-watching Frontier and I noticed that all the cannon-fodder coloured VF-25s in the maintenance bay (Episode 16, i think) had the single laser head of the VF-25G, which would contradict the Macross Chronicle translation that all other VF-25s have 2 lasers as well. The CFs were also pictured like the DX toy i.e. with the back of the legs not sticking up above the fuselage

[hobbes221]

As to the engines, it would mean that the VF-25S would need more maintenance, wouldn't it? I guess it wouldn't be much of a problem if you were the squadron commander. I'm wondering if the engines could be tuned on the fly, say when Alto went to rescue Ranka with the Armoured packs, would the engines have been re-trimmed for maximum performance?

I've thought for some time now that VF might have (or at least need IMO) a 'mode select' for the flight control systems as well as for engine output. With the level of thrust come out of the TNT engines from the VF-19 and up, and with only a few inches of movement in the throttle, a move of only millimeters could have a large difference in thrust. So the basic idea that I have would be something like rotary dial/switch with setting for 'Takeoff/Land' 'Cruse' 'Combat' and 'Emergency'. Each would change the way in which the VF would respond to inputs from the controls, I mean I wouldn't want to land something that can flip around like a hummingbird on Jolt Cola at the smallest control movement.

Something like that would allow for re-trimming the engines on the fly just by selecting 'Emergency' - you get the best performance, just maybe at the cost of burning the engines out faster.

What do you guy think?

Edited March 3, 2009 by hobbes221

[DarkReaper]

I think these engines produce more thrust at idle than current jets at military power.

How do they regulate power output anyway? Does the gear lever control a set of control rods?

Edited March 3, 2009 by DarkReaper

[edwin3060]

I'm not sure whether the TRTs produce any idle thrust at all-- since the power is generated by a nuclear reactor, and then used to heat up reaction mass, which is expelled to produce thrust, surely if no reaction mass in introduced into the engine then it wouldn't generate any idle thrust.

[Final Vegeta]

Which is why I've been asking, on occasion, for the original Japanese source text. Different translators do use different words, after all.

For example, is the G-limit really written only as G limit? Or is it really "maximum combat acceleration"? (Taken from Macross Chronicle M7 UNS Escort Ships).

That was a point I was trying to make. The g-limit of the VF-25 is worded with 3 differences: "maximum airframe load", time limit and no negative g. This is clearly different from how 2040 era Valkyries' stats are listed. I must note however that Macross has never been particularly consistent, the VF-1 has "g limit, in space: +7", which again is worded differently from all other g-limits.

I think the most likely explanation is that Kawamori has only a vague recollection of things written ten years ago. Also the Compendium editors may be forcing to classify under the same name what could be intended to be different stats.

FV

[ChronoReverse]

ChronoReverse: Would my explanation of the relative limits of the pilot and the aircraft make more sense? Previously the pilot would black out before he endangered the aircraft, but now that pilot tolerances have been massively increased due to the ISC, the pilot can fly his VF to pieces before he blacked out, and in the heat of battle he may not notice how hard he is pushing his VF, hence the need for the time limit (and probably some sort of countdown timer/warning alarm in the cockpit)

I don't see any problems with that interpretation. It certainly has analogues to real life and is also consistent in-universe with their current tech. After all, these numbers and such are ingrained into the pilots as well. It makes sense to have the computer give an alarm for the conservative values of safety while the good pilots can take it to the edge and push even further based on instinct.

As a sidenote, I'm sure this was the case even for VFs like the VF-19. G-limits aren't the only limits of a plane plus the values given are anisotropic. For example, the YF-19 testing probably killed a lot of its pilots because pushing the craft in certain ways results in irrecoverable loss of control. This would've been worked out during testing (and even after deployment) and added to the control software to either limit, mitigate or recover from such instances.

In any case, my only real point is that feedback doesn't have to be direct. It just has to be there (whether dampened or simulated) and pilots will learn to use it.

[Mr March]

Eh, I was just talking about what if the VF-27 has a Super Pack (well, this is a highly probable...).

But I dunno about the YF-24, I need to see it in action for once to say something, lineart alone doesn't do it for me.

It's unlikely the VF-27 has any FAST Pack configuration. They say that the "low airframe versatility has made the VF-27 Lucifer unsuitable for mass production" which IMO says the VF-27 is not versatile enough to have a Super FAST Pack or Armored option. But if we look at the VF-27 and it's capabilities, it likely doesn't require Super or Armor packs. The VF-27's four engines already make the VF faster than the standard VF-25 Messiah and the Lucifer has four internal micro-missile launchers. There's really no need for the addition of more boosters or missiles, so the idea of a VF-27 Super seems superfluous. The VF-27 Lucifer already has one of the heaviest valkyrie weapons (the BGP-01β heavy quantum reaction beam gun pod / beam grenade), so there wouldn't be much point to adding heavy beam guns and more missiles like the VF-25 Armored Messiah.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Mr March

[azrael]

It's possible that the ISC totally insulates the pilot from acceleration within its limits, or that it simply lessens perceived acceleration such that, say, a VF-25 pilot pulling 27g only feels under 9g or what have you. Either way isn't deeply important: the main idea is that this suggests that in a ISC-equipped VF the pilot is no longer the weaker link. *snip for length*

From the more detailed texts I've seen, ISC only works on the cockpit/pilot, not the fighter.

And hey, I still think the S is the luxury package. Upgraded upholstery and radio, man. More seriously, I do appreciate that in Frontier the brightly colored models with special gear piloted by major characters aren't higher class hero mechs, but rather were support-focused models for the two junior pilots on the team (before Alto came in to replace Gilliam, at least.)

S-versions of the VFs have always been the "luxury"-end/higher-end of the VF-line. Tweaked engines, updated avionics packages, no limiters, etc.. All in the same VF package.

[Mr March]

I wasn't answering anything. In any case, we do know that the ISC dampens g-forces because we see the existence of forces on Alto when he accelerates full throttle for an example. Furthermore, shaking still seems to exist and would provide yet another method to tell how close to the limit the VF is performing at. It doesn't make much sense to say that the ISC disconnects the pilot from feeling the craft; it's a matter of getting used to the feel.

Let's be honest, the pilots in Macross Frontier weren't animated any differently than they have been in SDF Macross or Macross 7 (with the exception of Macross Plus). So the animation doesn't suggest much of anything has changed, as if the ISC doesn't exist at all. Tactile and vibrational feedback on the pilot wouldn't be affected, but a sensation of acceleration doesn't make much sense to me if the ISC is active. Not saying it doesn't, just not sure I agree with this interpretation of the inertia buffer as a "slightly proportional effect".

Which is why I've been asking, on occasion, for the original Japanese source text. Different translators do use different words, after all.

For example, is the G-limit really written only as G limit? Or is it really "maximum combat acceleration"? (Taken from Macross Chronicle M7 UNS Escort Ships).

That sounds like a big job which might not be possible. Determining which source was used for each and every fact mentioned in the Macross Compendium sounds like an exhaustive task which is unlikely to happen. Not saying it's not a great idea, but it might not be feasible at this point.

Well, you're the one insinuating that we are jumping to conclusions when all we are doing is the MW equivalent of shooting the breeze-- Look we all know that what we are discussing is ultimately pointless due to the lack of data, but pointing that out like you do so often ends up killing the discussion and having the effect of "stifling debate" like you said.

Re-read. I said I'd be wary of jumping to conclusions. And yes, we all have a bad habit of doing so (I was not exempt)-- Look, we all know you object to my opinion, but attacking me personally so often like you do ends up killing the discussion and having the effect of alienating yourself like back on page 25. So do us all a favor; post your own opinions and stop complaining when others do the same.

[azrael]

That sounds like a big job which might not be possible. Determining which source was used for each and every fact mentioned in the Macross Compendium sounds like an exhaustive task which is unlikely to happen. Not saying it's not a great idea, but it might not be feasible at this point.

I doubt even Egan remembers where the heck he's pulled information from all those years.

[sketchley]

I doubt even Egan remembers where the heck he's pulled information from all those years.

The lack of a bibliography is the largest flaw of the old Compendium.

Nevertheless, there are members of MW that can read Japanese (to varying degrees of ability). So nothing is really impossible at this point.

Please keep in mind that I'm not asking for every fact. To date, I've only asked for a Japanese source twice.

[TheLoneWolf]

The lack of a bibliography is the largest flaw of the old Compendium.

I agree. While I do not contest that any of the information on the old Compendium was accurate, it would've good to know where exactly Egan obtained some of his information from.

[Zinjo]

From the more detailed texts I've seen, ISC only works on the cockpit/pilot, not the fighter.

S-versions of the VFs have always been the "luxury"-end/higher-end of the VF-line. Tweaked engines, updated avionics packages, no limiters, etc.. All in the same VF package.

The "S" versions have evolved (or maybe have always been) the command type. The VF-25S is the first I can recall where it is mentioned that part of its equipment is a tactical computer and communications package for team coordination.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

I agree. While I do not contest that any of the information on the old Compendium was accurate, it would've good to know where exactly Egan obtained some of his information from.

There is a bibliography in the old compendium, however it is not fully listed.

I suspect a comprehensive list exists, where it is, I have no idea....

Now if some desire a star trekian line by line bibliography then that may be another matter since the old site was not designed like a wikipedia.

To be fair, those who wish such a comprehensive cross referencing, may need to take it upon themselves to do so for the wiki page. Maybe all that is required is for a request to be made as to which "book" or "publication" an item came from.

The credibility of the old site has been supported by the "old guard" on this site for years. Maybe they need to pipe in and explain why they feel it was the best canon source of Macross for English fans.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Zinjo

[edwin3060]

Let's be honest, the pilots in Macross Frontier weren't animated any differently than they have been in SDF Macross or Macross 7 (with the exception of Macross Plus). So the animation doesn't suggest much of anything has changed, as if the ISC doesn't exist at all. Tactile and vibrational feedback on the pilot wouldn't be affected, but a sensation of acceleration doesn't make much sense to me if the ISC is active. Not saying it doesn't, just not sure I agree with this interpretation of the inertia buffer as a "slightly proportional effect".

In fact your own argument reinforces CR's argument about the proportional effect--- if, as you say, the animation doesn't suggest anything has changed, perhaps nothing has--- in fact the pilot is still feeling anything up to 9+ Gs--- the only difference being that while the pilot experiences the same amount of Gs as he would have in a previous series, the VF is actually pulling 27.5 Gs.

Pulling in an analogy here, it is like the time-dilation effect of fold drives-- the people going through the fold experience time at a different rate than the universe outside the fold. In the same way, the pilot (and cockpit) experiences a different g force than the aircraft.

If, as you say, that there is no sensation of acceleration when the ISC is active, we couldn't explain why the pilots would be animated feeling the effects of acceleration when pulling their maneuvers, since if there is no acceleration they might as well be playing around with an X-box.

Sketchley: You could wait for the relevant data to come out in the Macross Chronicles and then work from there, unless there is some hidden bibliography of the Compendium that nobody knows about.

[TheLoneWolf]

There is a bibliography in the old compendium, however it is not fully listed.

My point exactly.

[edwin3060]

Alright, I've just received my Super VF-25F and RVF-25, and as requested, here are the pictures of the interesting parts. I can only understand some of the Kanji and the numbers, but I'll post all the info I gleaned as well and some kind translators will hopefully work on the rest.

First the data on the QF-4000(AIF7S) Ghost. Both designations are equivalent and acceptable. If I had to guess, I'd say that QF-4000 would be the NUNS designation and AIF7S was either specific to Frontier or SMS.

It has a SA/A-2045 FCS2 system for its artifical intelligence/Fire control system. Apparently made by NEC/L.A.I.

It is 9.85m long, weighs 5700 kg, and has a G-limit of 24.5G.

Edit: This is really heavy! The Ghost is 1/2 the size and anything from 1/4 to 1/8th the volume, yet it weighs 2/3rd as much as the VF-25--and it doesn't even have to have things like the ISC or Life support or a cockpit.

2 x P&W FF-2038A engines which generate 55,000kg of thrust each which gives it a thrust to weight of 19.2

Edit: I have no idea why they give the thrust here in kg when it is given in kN for the rest of the Macross Frontier valks. Anyway, for quick reference, 55,000 kg = 539 kN, which gives a total thrust of 1078 kN. In comparison, one engine of the VF-25 produces a thrust of 1620 kN)

Max speed in atmosphere at 10,000m of Mach 5.0+.

As for weaponry, it has 2 x ROV-25 25mm beam machine guns, and 2 x 2 other types of weapons which I can't translate There is also mention of the VF-171 several times in the description, I guess it was designed to work with the VF-171 first and was then adapted for the VF-25.

Next onto the RVF-25 itself.

More references to the VF-171, and under the Cockpit heading there is some mention of 20th century but I don't know what exactly. Also something else about High G and Ex-gear but I assume that was already covered.

The interesting part is the AP-SF-01+ system, which should be the ELINT/Battle Management System. It was developed in 2048, and can target up to 128 targets simultaneously (which doesn't seem like much of a step up from current technology, to tell the truth). It also controls the QF-4000/AIF7S Ghosts, and can control up to 6 at one go.

The radome itself has a separate description from the AP-SF-01+ system, but I can't deciper anything there.

All in all, I'd say that the Ghost fighters and the Sensor systems look to be a previous generation radar/unmanned fighter system grafted onto the VF-25 platform. The number of references to the VF-171 seems to support this point, although we will need a better translation before we can be sure.

Enjoy the pictures. I hope they're not too blurry for translation, as I've already used the macro mode on my old 5.0MP Canon.

Further observations: The ELINT fin leaves no space for the gun-pod on the centreline--- in the anime I would presume that the gunpod would be offset to the right or left arms (like how Alto mounted both the gunpod and the sniper rifle in the final episode)

Edited March 4, 2009 by edwin3060

[REbirth]

Very nice stuff, thanks edwin3060.

[edwin3060]

Next Up, Super VF-25F.

First picture is of the cover for the manual, I'm so tempted to photoshop Appale Genki's on, but don't have the photoshop skills.

Super parts are designated SPS-25S/MF-25

The first thing I noticed is that the manual seems to say that the Super parts allows for a maximum of 15Gs of acceleration more over the normal VF-25F. This needs confirmation as a later part of the passage mentions something about 30Gs, although I don't know the context of that.

The section titled SPS-25S/MF-25 Basic set lists the various things that make up the Super parts, but the only thing I can get from that is that there is some form of CWIS with the Super parts. In fact it mounts 2 x CWIS systems

The section on the next page title SPS-25S/MF-25 in red seems to list the various systems of the Super parts. I think it lists the missile loadout of the shoulder mounted missile pack, but I cant be sure. Anyway, there are:

4 x SLE-7A

1 x SLE-3A

10 x SLE-1C

which matches the 15 missiles shown in the missile pack above it. I think it also says there are 5 reloads for each missile but that seems a little unlikely and will require proper translation.

The total additional thrust provided by the Super parts is 2940 KN (Compared to 1620 KN for each engine, or 3240 KN total for the standard fighter)

Edit: From this and the 15G figure mentioned earlier I calculate the weight of the fully loaded Super VF-25F to be 14,838 kg. Calculations as follows:

Total thrust= 2940+3240 = 6180 kN = 6.306 x 10^5 kg

Acceleration= 27.5+15 = 42.5 Gs

Therefore, total weight= 6.306 x 10^5 / 42.5 = 14, 838 kg.

Note: We don't know the weight of the Super parts themselves since we don't know the loaded weight of the plain VF-25F, only the empty weight.

The wing fence mounted pods seem to mount or possess the following systems:

CIMM-3A x 2

CWIS : HMM-5A x2 (I'm thinking the HMM refers of High Maneuver Missiles, which means that the Close in Weapons System uses HMMs to intercept incoming missiles?)

There is some character data for the Bridge bunnies and Bobby as well.

Well thats as far as I can go with my limited understanding. Have fun with the pictures! Maybe someone with a scanner can post all these properly.

Further observations: The boxart for the Super pack clearly shows that all three ports on the front end of the wing fence boosters are missile launchers. This means that when Luca mounts the Fold-communication system for controlling his Ghosts, it replaces one of the missile launchers, so he would be left with 5 missile launchers on the wing pods.

Edited March 4, 2009 by edwin3060

[DarkReaper]

So the ginormous super pack boosters actually generate less total thrust than the main engines on the VF? That's weak.

Barely more than the VF-1 super pack. I guess they are just based on normal liquid-fuelled rockets then. Otherwise they would have improved far further.

Edited March 4, 2009 by DarkReaper

[sketchley]

Sketchley: You could wait for the relevant data to come out in the Macross Chronicles and then work from there, unless there is some hidden bibliography of the Compendium that nobody knows about.

You do realize that Macross Chronicle's stats are far from complete. Take the VF-1 for example. There are oodles of sheets, yet I have yet to come across mention of the number of AMM-1 missiles it carries - which are standard loadout in SDF:M.

By far, the vast majority of info on SDF:M and M+ mecha comes from Perfect Memory and TiA Special: Macross Plus (specifically the Valkyrie report). However, until the exact source is confirmed (it may be a model kit ), I'm not about to waste precious time trying to locate what may not be in either of the aforementioned books.

[edwin3060]

So the ginormous super pack boosters actually generate less total thrust than the main engines on the VF? That's weak.

Barely more than the VF-1 super pack. I guess they are just based on normal liquid-fuelled rockets then. Otherwise they would have improved far further.

Yep... the VF-1 Super pack thrusters generate 2,353 kN of thrust in comparison. Liquid fuelled rockets would be my guess, given that we see the Booster pods ejected many times in the animation during combat even when the other Super parts are retained-- perhaps the pods are ejected once they are empty of fuel/missiles as their mass then becomes a liability, especially when rolling.

[edwin3060]

You do realize that Macross Chronicle's stats are far from complete. Take the VF-1 for example. There are oodles of sheets, yet I have yet to come across mention of the number of AMM-1 missiles it carries - which are standard loadout in SDF:M.

By far, the vast majority of info on SDF:M and M+ mecha comes from Perfect Memory and TiA Special: Macross Plus (specifically the Valkyrie report). However, until the exact source is confirmed (it may be a model kit ), I'm not about to waste precious time trying to locate what may not be in either of the aforementioned books.

Well, given that the Macross Chronicle seems to be far from done with the VF-1....

You never know the relevant data may just pop up in the Chronicles if you are lucky

Oh well, I guess it is kind of an impossible task then, unless something comes up. I agree, there are far better things to spend you time on.

[Zinjo]

One gets the impression that so much time and effort is devoted to the VF-1 so that we as fans have a solid foundation upon which to base subsequent models of variable fighters...

[hobbes221]

Great pics and info edwin3060, thanks.

I'm not disappointed by the thrust of the packs for a few reasons. First if they are TNT engines and not rockets then they could be designed small enough that there is a good amount of armor built in around them for protection. And second, that could be all the thrust that could be added to the airframe for stress reasons, any more and it bends the bird (or that's all they thought that would be needed. The YF-19 was thought to not need any extra engines/rockets in the FAST packs at first, right?

Oh well it's nice to have some new info and I'm sure this (along with whatever they toss out for the other stuff) will give use plenty to talk and guess about for a while longer

[edwin3060]

You're welcome . I just hope someone can come along to translate this and confirm my guesses so that Mr March's amazing site can be updated

Also, I have added some observations about the RVF-25 and the Super VF-25F as I look through the manuals in detail and start to build the kits. Those are highlighted in red.

Edited March 4, 2009 by edwin3060

[Graham]

The section titled SPS-25S/MF-25 Basic set lists the various things that make up the Super parts, but the only thing I can get from that is that there is some form of CWIS with the Super parts. In fact it mounts 2 x CWIS systems

Shouldn't that be 'CIWS' (Close In Weapons Systems).

Graham

[Mr March]

The lack of a bibliography is the largest flaw of the old Compendium.

Nevertheless, there are members of MW that can read Japanese (to varying degrees of ability). So nothing is really impossible at this point.

Please keep in mind that I'm not asking for every fact. To date, I've only asked for a Japanese source twice.

Well, I suspect that while we may not need a source for EVERY fact on the Macross Compendium, the way we all nitpick over details means we'd need the source for the majority of the tech facts, if nothing else. Which is a big job in and of itself. It's a great idea, but a lot of work.

In fact your own argument reinforces CR's argument about the proportional effect--- if, as you say, the animation doesn't suggest anything has changed, perhaps nothing has--- in fact the pilot is still feeling anything up to 9+ Gs--- the only difference being that while the pilot experiences the same amount of Gs as he would have in a previous series, the VF is actually pulling 27.5 Gs.

Or the simpler explanation: the ICS effect was never animated, thus making it's function a totally non-diegetic aspect of Frontier.

Thanks for posting the pictures and the translations. This trivia looks great.

One gets the impression that so much time and effort is devoted to the VF-1 so that we as fans have a solid foundation upon which to base subsequent models of variable fighters...

That's always the assumption from which I've been working. When speculating about how some of the later variable fighters might work, I always go back to the VF-1 Valkyrie, since it's the closest thing we have to a completely detailed benchmark for the Macross universe.

[Killer Robot]

Or the simpler explanation: the ICS effect was never animated, thus making it's function a totally non-diegetic aspect of Frontier.

That's the main thing I'm getting at. "The ISC reduces(but does not entirely eliminate) the perceived acceleration of the pilot" is the simpler explanation. "The ISC totally eliminates the perceived acceleration of the pilot and any apparent inertial effects in the cockpit are technically animation errors" is the more complicated one. If a simple interpretation can fit both the tech writeups (the Chronicle translation here says "reduces"), and the animation (pilots not appearing weightless during combat maneuvers), I don't see a reason to hunt for alternatives that don't also satisfy both conditions.

[DarkReaper]

Only problem is that every VF before the VF-25 pulled the same maneuvers and they didn't g-loc. Maybe they had some early compensators built in, but less efficient with more energy draw.

[edwin3060]

Shouldn't that be 'CIWS' (Close In Weapons Systems).

Graham

Yep my bad.

[Mr March]

That's the main thing I'm getting at. "The ISC reduces(but does not entirely eliminate) the perceived acceleration of the pilot" is the simpler explanation. "The ISC totally eliminates the perceived acceleration of the pilot and any apparent inertial effects in the cockpit are technically animation errors" is the more complicated one. If a simple interpretation can fit both the tech writeups (the Chronicle translation here says "reduces"), and the animation (pilots not appearing weightless during combat maneuvers), I don't see a reason to hunt for alternatives that don't also satisfy both conditions.

The simplest explanation is that the ISC was never animated. Hence, the anime neither supports or disproves any ISC effect. Thus we have but one source: the official literature. The trivia does describe the ICS as “reducing” the effect of acceleration, which implies it does not totally remove the effects of acceleration. Only pretty much eliminates them, like I wrote. Why would I assume that? Because we never see any VF-25 pilot strain against significant gs in Macross Frontier; certainly nothing approaching 9+ gs like we saw Isamu or Guld doing in Macross Plus. Which would mean if the ICS doesn’t completely eliminate inertia effects, the remaining acceleration upon the pilot is nearly negligible. Perhaps no more than one or two g, but it's really anyone's guess.

Now, throwing all this back into ONLY the scope and context of what I originally posted back on 27 (yeah...that!), I find it unlikely the pilot would be able to achieve an accurate sense of his craft’s highest end limits based upon a negligible number of gs we see affecting the pilots in Frontier.

[azrael]

That's the main thing I'm getting at. "The ISC reduces(but does not entirely eliminate) the perceived acceleration of the pilot" is the simpler explanation. "The ISC totally eliminates the perceived acceleration of the pilot and any apparent inertial effects in the cockpit are technically animation errors" is the more complicated one. If a simple interpretation can fit both the tech writeups (the Chronicle translation here says "reduces"), and the animation (pilots not appearing weightless during combat maneuvers), I don't see a reason to hunt for alternatives that don't also satisfy both conditions.

IIRC, the 1/72 model kit manuals also say "reduce". I don't recall any text saying that ISC completely eliminates the burden on the pilot. It's either been "reduce" or "support" which would imply that they do feel something. Maybe not much but something.

[edwin3060]

Only problem is that every VF before the VF-25 pulled the same maneuvers and they didn't g-loc. Maybe they had some early compensators built in, but less efficient with more energy draw.

You can't say that they pulled the same maneuvers because you have no objective reference. For example, you see both the VF-1 and the VF-25 bank to the right-- but the VF-1 could be pulling 7 Gs and the VF-25 could be pulling 27 Gs but you wouldn't know the difference unless you were standing far enough away to see the turn radius/turn rate, or maybe sitting in both planes and feeling the Gs.

[edwin3060]

The simplest explanation is that the ISC was never animated. Hence, the anime neither supports or disproves any ISC effect. Thus we have but one source: the official literature. The trivia does describe the ICS as “reducing” the effect of acceleration, which implies it does not totally remove the effects of acceleration. Only pretty much eliminates them, like I wrote. Why would I assume that? Because we never see any VF-25 pilot strain against significant gs in Macross Frontier; certainly nothing approaching 9+ gs like we saw Isamu or Guld doing in Macross Plus. Which would mean if the ICS doesn’t completely eliminate inertia effects, the remaining acceleration upon the pilot is nearly negligible. Perhaps no more than one or two g, but it's really anyone's guess.

Now, throwing all this back into ONLY the scope and context of what I originally posted back on 27 (yeah...that!), I find it unlikely the pilot would be able to achieve an accurate sense of his craft’s highest end limits based upon a negligible number of gs we see affecting the pilots in Frontier.

We do see Alto pull so much g's in the last episode that his helmet glass breaks.