Please explain Macross Zero to me

[justplainZero]

Im not new to Macross, but I recently introduced a friend to it who's experience was Robotech. I made him watch Macross Zero, Macross DYRL and then Macross + and so forth...

He came back to me and asked "whats the deal with the AFOS and the Myans?" I dont quite understand it myself after I gave it some thought. Why are the Myans in touch with Protoculture technology? what IS the AFOS? Why can Sara make Shen fly? I mean is she part Protoculture or did she "unlock" her powers?

[jenius]

It gets a little crazy but the essential idea is that the Protoculture came to Earth, did something with the life they found to mold it into a life form not too unlike the Protoculture (this is the whole Bird Man, creation myth that gets repeated a few times), and left a fail safe (the AFOS) to make sure that the life form (humans) wouldn't be torn apart by war like the Protoculture were being when they discovered Earth. The M'yans have been segregated forever on an island so they're the most like the original tweaked by Protoculture state and thus the most in tune with the Protoculture relics.

Opinion-wise it's application is extremely uneven with some real peaks of heavy handedness (flying rocks, plants being brought back to life, feathers flying off a valk, etc.).

[VFTF1]

Why can Sara make Shen fly? I mean is she part Protoculture or did she "unlock" her powers?

The theory which has been ventured on numerous occasions is that anti-gravity cells are activated by the power of Sarah's singing.

There's a long thread somewhere in here where we all went into lots of detail about this -and I think it was Mr. March who provided the most sensible explanations for various things happening in what amounts to one of the most beautiful instalments of the Macross Saga.

Pete

[RedWolf]

Well timeline wise this is a post Stellar Republic creation.

The Protoculture made a mistake with the Zentradi, Protodevlin, Supervision Army and does not want those mistakes repeated.

500,000 years ago some of the Protoculture started modifying lifeforms to be in their likeness during the civil war. The Stellar Republic was in decline so they created races for worlds they intend to colonize. The frak happened when their untimate weapons the Evil series got possesed by life energy sucking vampires. 85% of their population got wiped out.

The only ones known are humans and Zolans. The Zentradi refer to these races as miclones.

Which their ancient command directive was not to interfere with the Protoculture or miclones. But this was rendered ineffective because the Protodevlin used both Protoculture and Zentradi for their Supervision Army.

Around 10,000 years the Birdman came to Earth somehow imparting a version of the culture of the Protoculture. The record of the survey ship that was destroyed 500,000 years ago was lost. Indicating Earth was only recently found.

But the Birdman is a failsafe device just in case humans evolved to an interstellar warlike species.

Basically to blow them to smithereens. Which is a bit contradictory to the message on Lux about hybrid sub-Protocultures like Mylene who is both human and Zentradi.

Though we do know after the break-up of the Stellar Republic the Protoculture weren't really united.

[thegunny]

A load of tree hugging rubbish

[Renato]

A load of tree hugging rubbish

That kinda talk will get you blown up by the Birdman next month! (Or is it this month..?)

[ntsan]

Well the Birdman is modeled after Vajra Queen which the protoculture respect and afraid of

[Gubaba]

That kinda talk will get you blown up by the Birdman next month! (Or is it this month..?)

Last month, actually. So I guess can be as warlike as we want...until the Zentradi come in February, that is.

[Shaka_Z]

The theory which has been ventured on numerous occasions is that anti-gravity cells are activated by the power of Sarah's singing.

There's a long thread somewhere in here where we all went into lots of detail about this -and I think it was Mr. March who provided the most sensible explanations for various things happening in what amounts to one of the most beautiful instalments of the Macross Saga.

Pete

my theory is that basically, the mayan priestesses (unknowingly) use their song and bloodline/psionic connection to the AFOS to keep its' core systems functioning. like I said in another thread, it's kind of like letting a car sit outside for years without moving - it might be all rusted and crappy on the outside, but if somebody at least turns the engine over once in awhile, it should be fine... the AFOS just goes one step farther in that it can return itself to showroom new on a moments notice.

[d3v]

The protoculture chose the location of the Mayan due to it's isolation, hoping that the priestesses wouldn't be influenced by the outside world and hence being ideal judges of humanity. The use of song as an interface was probably copied from the Vajra using song to communicate with other groups. The rocks in the ruins are possibly imbued with properties designed to make them resonate and respond to the singing and the AFOS then raises these rocks with whatever anti-grav system it has. Seeing as the Nome's were in possession of fold quarts, it's highly probable that fold quartz, and more importantly, fold communication was involved in the AFOS, interfacing with the priestesses.

Whatever the explanation, it's clear the Kawamori has imbued the protoculture with a an air of mysticism, off course, there's Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd law to consider ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic").

Edited October 22, 2008 by d3v

[sharky]

Whenever I see some sort of levitation phenomenon in anime I tend to view it as a psychokinetic event where a person is using some sort of mind influence on a physical object. I like the idea that perhaps Sara Nome can manipulate objects through song via some super dimensional manipulation. As she sings she creates disturbances or some sort of energy wave in another dimension that can manifest itself in our 3D world as a floating rock or what have you. You might also look to how people can describe a ghostly or poltergeist event where physical objects seem to move by themselves.

[VFTF1]

The protoculture chose the location of the Mayan due to it's isolation,

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression, based on the story of the "turtle shell cracking in half and falling in the water" that Mao told Shin, that the islands were initially part of a larger structure (perhaps the underwater Protoculture island from DYRL?) and somehow "came off"...

That is to say - I get the impression that the experiment, in its' early stages, did not go off without a hitch: there was something that went wrong - clearly some kind of conflict took place when the Protoculture visited earth - this is clear from the mystic fabel of how Loli cut off the Birdman's head and so forth and so on - the beginning was violent: perhaps the intention was noble, but always violence seems to be even at the birth of a new civilization...

But that could just be me reading too much into the mythos of the Mayan religion.

Pete

[azrael]

But that could just be me reading too much into the mythos of the Mayan religion.

A lot of what Mao and Sara told Shin probably stems from Mayan mythology so it's somewhat confusing. The best way to look at it is, there is a truth in the stories, but I won't put that much faith in a literal telling of the stories.

[RedWolf]

Whenever I see some sort of levitation phenomenon in anime I tend to view it as a psychokinetic event where a person is using some sort of mind influence on a physical object. I like the idea that perhaps Sara Nome can manipulate objects through song via some super dimensional manipulation. As she sings she creates disturbances or some sort of energy wave in another dimension that can manifest itself in our 3D world as a floating rock or what have you. You might also look to how people can describe a ghostly or poltergeist event where physical objects seem to move by themselves.

I agree with Mr. March's assesment that the flying rocks thing was the anti-grav system of the Birdman.

But flowers and such getting more alive indicates Song Energy as seen in Macross 7.

[taksraven]

Last month, actually. So I guess can be as warlike as we want...until the Zentradi come in February, that is.

C'mon, we are still trying to recover from the arrival of ASS-1 in 1999 and Second Impact in 2000. As well as the discovery of that monolith thingy on the moon. This was especially interesting because the moon was blasted out of orbit in 1999.

BTW, when is Third Impact supposed to occur?

Taksraven

Edited October 23, 2008 by taksraven

[Duke Togo]

I agree with Mr. March's assesment that the flying rocks thing was the anti-grav system of the Birdman.

But flowers and such getting more alive indicates Song Energy as seen in Macross 7.

No it doesn't. Kawamori has stated it more than once, he doesn't do the same thing twice. The Birdman is very much an Alpha and Omega. It can bring life, or bring death. It reacts to Sara's singing.

[Sumdumgai]

my theory is that basically, the mayan priestesses (unknowingly) use their song and bloodline/psionic connection to the AFOS to keep its' core systems functioning. like I said in another thread, it's kind of like letting a car sit outside for years without moving - it might be all rusted and crappy on the outside, but if somebody at least turns the engine over once in awhile, it should be fine... the AFOS just goes one step farther in that it can return itself to showroom new on a moments notice.

The melody of the song may be ancient, the lyrics may be as well, but French isn't thaaaaat old.

[Shaka_Z]

The melody of the song may be ancient, the lyrics may be as well, but French isn't thaaaaat old.

it isnt the song in and of itself that is important... or the language. its that the priestess is singing, and the emotional content she imbues the song with that makes the AFOS respond by flexing its' grav systems and whatnot. hell... Sara could have been singing one of Krauser's songs (from Detroit Metal City) and gotten the same reaction if she did it right.

lol... AFOS gettin it on to death metal...

Edited October 23, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[regult]

C'mon, we are still trying to recover from the arrival of ASS-1 in 1999 and Second Impact in 2000. As well as the discovery of that monolith thingy on the moon. This was especially interesting because the moon was blasted out of orbit in 1999.

BTW, when is Third Impact supposed to occur?

Taksraven

They were two impacts first: Freddy and Fannie, then there was a third one recently: Lehman.

[taksraven]

Simple explanation. Its a great series that annoys a lot of fanboys which makes me like it even more.

Taksraven

[thegunny]

Simple explanation. Its a great series that annoys a lot of fanboys which makes me like it even more.

Taksraven

Sorry to disapoint you pal, I'm no fan boy and it still sucks

[VFTF1]

Simple explanation. Its a great series that annoys a lot of fanboys which makes me like it even more.

Taksraven

Sorry to disapoint you pal, I'm no fan boy and it still sucks dry.gif

To make matters worse, I AM a fanboy and it's my favorite OVA and second favorite Macross (next to Frontier) But actually, in many ways, Frontier is a continuation of Zero since we learn about O[TURN-A]W and so forth and so on.

As to the Birdman being Alpha and Omega - Duke Togo is partially right... I say partially because that theory is the one ventured by Professor Bloodforbracelets. But I don't know if his theory is the correct one. There are lots of theories floating around (excuse the pun ), and in the end, humans are not absolutely sure since we haven't actually met the Protoculture, nor has any definitive proof been found.

Personally, I always took it that the entire island was a form of advanced bio-genetic engineering. If the Zendradi - who are after all "grown" just like flowers, are nonetheless able to react to music and "remember love" - then it is concievable that the Protoculture could genetically grow other organic life forms capable o a symbiotic relationship of the sort we see that Sarah has with the island.

Perhaps the Protoculture concieved such harmony between man and nature as the ideal civilization to create? And their fear was that humans would begin to bend nature to their will rather than live in harmony with nature?

In any event - Macross Zero is certainly tops.

Pete

[Duke Togo]

Simple explanation. Its a great series that annoys a lot of fanboys which makes me like it even more.

Taksraven

How very fanboyish of you.

[Radd]

I like Zero well enough, but it's hardly my favourite piece of Macross. Oddly enough, I've a lot of friends who loved Zero, liked it better than DYRL or Plus, and they're not very big into Macross at all.

As for explaining it, I'm not certain what there is to explain. It seemed to me that the Protoculture had a colony of sorts near the Mayan islands. In the underwater sequences you even see a lot of underwater structures that are very reminiscent of the Protoculture city in DYRL (In fact, it may be that very same city, who knows?) Certainly there was the APHOS itself present, and the anti-gravity and other "supernatural" occurrences seemed to be related to it, specifically (just as the APHOS lifted the U.N. and Anti-U.N. ships out of the water).

With all the talk about blood types and whatnot, I got the impression that there was something special about the Mayans, linking them to the APHOS, but nothing more than that is every stated for certain.

[VFTF1]

With all the talk about blood types and whatnot, I got the impression that there was something special about the Mayans, linking them to the APHOS, but nothing more than that is every stated for certain.

Much more than that is stated for certain:

Namely - the blood type of the Aphos is exactly the same as the blood type of Mao Nome. In fact, the Aphos is the ONLY being with compatible blood to help save Mao's life.

In a sense then, we can safely speculate that the DNA of Aphos was the basis for the original humans - and the Mayans might have actually been "proto-humans" - Protoculture in fact, as opposed to actual culture which developed later (us, humanity).

The Mayans are the most pure humans - the first humans - the proto-civilization...

In fact - perhaps they ARE the Protoculture - in the same way that say, people born on Eden are Earthlings, even though lots of them have never been to Earth....

dum-dum-dum!

Pete

[RedWolf]

To make matters worse, I AM a fanboy and it's my favorite OVA and second favorite Macross (next to Frontier) But actually, in many ways, Frontier is a continuation of Zero since we learn about O[TURN-A]W and so forth and so on.

As to the Birdman being Alpha and Omega - Duke Togo is partially right... I say partially because that theory is the one ventured by Professor Bloodforbracelets. But I don't know if his theory is the correct one. There are lots of theories floating around (excuse the pun ), and in the end, humans are not absolutely sure since we haven't actually met the Protoculture, nor has any definitive proof been found.

Personally, I always took it that the entire island was a form of advanced bio-genetic engineering. If the Zendradi - who are after all "grown" just like flowers, are nonetheless able to react to music and "remember love" - then it is concievable that the Protoculture could genetically grow other organic life forms capable o a symbiotic relationship of the sort we see that Sarah has with the island.

Perhaps the Protoculture concieved such harmony between man and nature as the ideal civilization to create? And their fear was that humans would begin to bend nature to their will rather than live in harmony with nature?

In any event - Macross Zero is certainly tops.

Pete

Yeah well the original experiment was left unchecked for approximately 490,000 years and they are expecting humans to evolved to a particular direction they like or extermination?

Such stupid arrogance. I'm sure some of them realized it if the legend had parts of some truth of the Birdman rebelling from its creators to burn humanity.

This faction of the Protoculture only found us 10,000 years ago.

The faction that set up on Lux was more practical in waiting for hybrids.

Thing is how do you expect galactic signs of peace (hybrids) without some conflict along the way?

If we take the Protoculture's history at face value they never had that much diversity at two ethnic groups. The Protoculture went to large scale war only after they went into space.

They expected humans and other miclone race creations to evolve along similar lines.

The Zolans seem to be a peaceful bunch but it seems they have lost a substantial portion of their culture due to some disaster.

[VFTF1]

Well, now you're getting into the very interesting debate that Science Officer Dude had with Hikaru Ichijo late in the SDFM TV series. Science Officer dude adamently pointed out that human nature entails armed conflict and always has; while Hikaru maintained that he didn't fight because he liked it, but because he had too and that it was possible to stop wars.

This is interesting.

If anything; Macross is a message about how - on the one hand - humanity has to unite for its' own survival, but on the other hand, the journey into space - supposedly made in order to spread culture and peace in the event that Earthlings end up exterminating eachother - also entails conflict with other beings, or further inter-human conflict.

Personally - I don't agree with either side: instead, I agree with Nekki Basara.

The whole debate about whether we are historically predestined towards war or peace is beside the point and not really relevent.

What's relevent is what YOU are going to do in the context you find yourself in.

Basara decides that he is going to sing. He doesn't really care if people listen to his music; he would like them to - but he's not after recognition, and he will sing about love no matter what.

In other words: what really matters is what we do - or as John Conor says in T2 "There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

In this sense - I don't think the Protoculture were being arrogant in spreading their seed.

They gave us paradise and all of the benefits of their knowledge. We screwed it up. They didn't.

Humans are at fault; and humans need to make amends for it.

And they do - by continuing the original mission of the protoculture: trying to spread culture throughout the universe.

Pete

[taksraven]

How very fanboyish of you.

:P

Taksraven

[Radd]

Much more than that is stated for certain:

Namely - the blood type of the Aphos is exactly the same as the blood type of Mao Nome. In fact, the Aphos is the ONLY being with compatible blood to help save Mao's life.

This part is fact. Sure.

In a sense then, we can safely speculate that the DNA of Aphos was the basis for the original humans - and the Mayans might have actually been "proto-humans" - Protoculture in fact, as opposed to actual culture which developed later (us, humanity).

This part is speculation. However, it's more or less reasonable speculation. You may have the tail wagging the dog here. We don't know that the APHOS is the basis for human genetics, and hence the blood type match with Mao. It may be that the APHOS was set up to match the DNA signature of the Mayans. We don't know.

The Mayans are the most pure humans - the first humans - the proto-civilization...

In fact - perhaps they ARE the Protoculture - in the same way that say, people born on Eden are Earthlings, even though lots of them have never been to Earth....

dum-dum-dum!

Pete

You're stretching a bit, here. We've simply no idea, and nothing to go by for this. We don't know that humanity sprung from the Mayan's islands. These might just be the people singled out to interact with the APHOS the Protoculture left behind.

[RedWolf]

Indeed there is approximately 490,000 year difference from the loss of the survey ship that seeded Earth and the arrival of the Birdman.

All data pertaining to Earth was supposedly lost with the ship.

Also Earth is located at the outer edge of the galaxy and Zola being at the Rim , these are planets located at the backwater regions of the Milky Way galaxy.

Nobody comes there.

The Protoculture had its empire at the core region.

But given the revelations of Macross Frontier that the Vajra are a intergalactic species and the presence of fold quartz in the Macross Zero Blu-Ray.

The survivors may have left Dodge city. Zentradi and Supervision Army still shooting each other? Hell no I'm outta here!

Edited October 25, 2008 by RedWolf