Gui Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Me too... Finished Flag yesterday: it's the new benchmark for the real mechas genre, not because of the technical aspects of the machines but because of its portraying of life during war time. Definitely one of the best mecha animes I've ever seen, and one of the best animes all short Surprisingly, it was the very first time I agreed almost completely with ANN reviews...
Ghost Train Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) Which is why I also said to try the test again with your chair back so you don't have to move your scope of vision more than you would for a TV or monitor. Hell, forget my test and just try your own little tests around the house...looking from one thing to another and noting how long it takes to fix your eyes on a detail. It always takes time for your eyes to find what they are looking for. You may not realize it, but it does. It has nothing to do with being a fast or slow reader. I'm just talking about the physical limitations of human anatomy. I agree with both of your tests, but is this really a correct analogy to describe a person watching TV or a computer screen? The use of focal points to describe vision is not completely accurate in my opinion - though it's a decent model. An eye is not really similar to a pointing optical device made by man like lenses, scopes or whatever, it is actually more like an array of sensors that send data back to the brain. In this case, the sensors are the photoreceptor cells in your eyes - namely the cone and rod cells. If you need proof of this, consider the following - a focal point is just a theoretical point in space, mathematically it could be as small as a spec of dust, yet when I focus on an object I'm not limited to just 1 pixel of it, but I can see the totality of the object pretty well. Perhaps I need some math here to illustrate that your eyeball is not rotating so fast, that you can see steam coming out 1) Let's say that you sit 50cm from your monitor, I think that's a reasonable distance. 2) The human vision has approximately 120 degrees of vertical coverage, with some simple trig and an asessment of what your eye can see, you can validate this number, though it varies a little bit from person to person it's a good average vertical field of vision. 3) Now, my math sucks so let's divide the 120 degree vision cone into 2 X 60 degree right triangles and then merge the results later, you basically get this: (Pardon the crap drawing - the low quality is probably a distraction ) Basically, to solve for the far edge of each triangle, you do: tan(60) X 50cm = 86 cm. I have 2 triangles, so I multiply that by 2 and get 172 cm. So the maximum viewable vertical range is about 172 cm (or 68 inches in Imperial units). This implies that you will be able to see stuff 172 cm high sitting 50 cm away from it. Now you can't see the stuff that's near the edges of that range really well, but the stuff that's in front of you appears clearly. So here is my theory basically: Unless your monitor/screen is 1.72 meters tall, you will probably not have issues reading subs that appear near the bottom of a screen. As long as it's within a reasonable angle of that 120 degree arc, the brain will deem it to be understandable and ok. In other words, because it's in the optimal zone not a lot of effort is invested in quickly scanning the subs and therefore detracting from the video. If you have a 14 inch screen (a pretty average sized monitor), and assuming 16:9 ratio, your screen is about 8 inches tall or 20 cm. 20cm is only 12% of your total field of vision, so odds are it is in the "optimal zone." But I do agree that experiences and mileage varies, as each eye is different. Even if you don't agree with my math here, consider that anime/foreign film distributors have obviously thought about this problem in great depth, and since it costs money to put subs too, they must have reasoned that there will be sufficient interest to recoup their sub costs. Edited March 22, 2010 by Ghost Train
Vic Mancini Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Bottom line, if you like listening to things in english, then anime isn't for you, changing the native audio just because you can't handle it being in another language is changing the product into something that it was never intended to be, and in the process giving you a completely different viewing experience than the one that was intended by the creaters. I dunno, Keith. I think an argument can be made that watching an anime with high quality dubs in the viewer's native language is more natural and actually closer to the creator's original intended viewing experience, than forcing a viewer to listen to a voice track that they can't understand, not to mention distracting their eyes from the visuals by slapping big yellow text over the bottom 1/6th of the screen. If the experience that a English viewer has when watching subbed anime is what the creators "intended", then all anime would originally be released in a language equally unrecognizable by all human audiences with big bold subtitled translations over the images in the first place.
Keith Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I dunno, Keith. I think an argument can be made that watching an anime with high quality dubs in the viewer's native language is more natural and actually closer to the creator's original intended viewing experience, than forcing a viewer to listen to a voice track that they can't understand, not to mention distracting their eyes from the visuals by slapping big yellow text over the bottom 1/6th of the screen. If the experience that a English viewer has when watching subbed anime is what the creators "intended", then all anime would originally be released in a language equally unrecognizable by all human audiences with big bold subtitled translations over the images in the first place. Different actors is always inherently going to result in different inflections mixed with the dubious translation choices that always pop up with dubs equates to a different show all together. Sometimes the original creators "do" intend things to be in english, sometimes they don't. But claiming a dub is going to give you the same experience is ignorant at best. Again, it has nothing to do with watching subtitles, it has to do with not meddling with the show in general. Dubs completely remove a componant, and replace it with something else, while subtitles merely translate what's there.
Dynaman Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Different actors is always inherently going to result in different inflections mixed with the dubious translation choices that always pop up with dubs equates to a different show all together. Sometimes the original creators "do" intend things to be in english, sometimes they don't. But claiming a dub is going to give you the same experience is ignorant at best. Again, it has nothing to do with watching subtitles, it has to do with not meddling with the show in general. Dubs completely remove a componant, and replace it with something else, while subtitles merely translate what's there. By that logic, in order to truly appreaciate ANYTHING you have to be a native speaker of the language and culture it was created in, dub, sub, voice over translation - NONE of these can bring out the origal intended experience. A good dub is MUCH harder then a good sub, but the latest Akira and Nausica prove that it can be done (note, NOT the older version of either). A sub can be just as bad as a dub as well. It is well known that a dub has to match the lips (more of less) of the character speaking - what is not as well appreaciated is that a sub must often leave out a lot of nuance in order to make it readable in the time available for it to be on screen (just watch an english DVD with the subtitles on and see how much of what the characters say does not make it into the subtitles)
Keith Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) By that logic, in order to truly appreaciate ANYTHING you have to be a native speaker of the language and culture it was created in, dub, sub, voice over translation - NONE of these can bring out the origal intended experience. A good dub is MUCH harder then a good sub, but the latest Akira and Nausica prove that it can be done (note, NOT the older version of either). A sub can be just as bad as a dub as well. It is well known that a dub has to match the lips (more of less) of the character speaking - what is not as well appreaciated is that a sub must often leave out a lot of nuance in order to make it readable in the time available for it to be on screen (just watch an english DVD with the subtitles on and see how much of what the characters say does not make it into the subtitles) Never said subtitle translations were all perfect, just that they didn't remove anything that was originally there. Attention, pay some! Edited March 22, 2010 by Keith
Dynaman Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Never said subtitle translations were all perfect, just that they didn't remove anything that was originally there. Attention, pay some! But *I* did say they remove stuff that was there, attention, pay some! (the nuance bit) I'll agree that it is much more likely to get an atrocious dub then it is an atrocious sub.
bluemax151 Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Bottom line, if you like listening to things in english, then anime isn't for you, changing the native audio just because you can't handle it being in another language is changing the product into something that it was never intended to be, and in the process giving you a completely different viewing experience than the one that was intended by the creaters. Subtitles are on the exact same screen as all the other action that's going on, claiming that reading letters and reading images (both involve recognition & interpretation by your brain) is inane. A ball and the letter Q are both pictures. Now excuse me while I enjoy my anime with its superior original audio track, and extra words over the already existing pictures to translate the words. BTW, shouldn't you be over at robotech.com posting since you like dubbed/changed things better? Regardless of your Japanese language proficiency or the subtitles quality/accuracy when you are not both ethnically Japanese and born and raised within the confines of said country Anime is not only not intended/marketed to you but there is no way you could even possibly hope to understand the intricacies of the medium. Might as well just give up wapanese pasttimes like watching Japanime and go ahead with normal 鬼畜米兵 hobbies.
Ghost Train Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 The real question is - with high quality intellectually stimulating and thought provoking shows the likes of Strike Witches, Chubra, Kampfer (just to name a few) - is spending a lot of time ensuring an accurate translation whether through voice dubbing or subbing all that important ?
shiroikaze Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I just realized something (in mecha anime), that almost all the dialogue during action scenes are mostly shown from the cockpit. I'm not missing anything! And if they are speaking while the actions scenes play, it's usually in short bursts. Truly a cat smashingly good series! Ugh...
Bri Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) Dubs are like decaff coffee, Coke zero and light beer, not quite the same but they serve a purpose (...ok...except light beer). To each his own I guess. (Although sometimes a dub can add something like the BBCs hilarious dub of Lum, which ironically seems so much more in tune then normal accurate dubs and yes I read tv tropes at times) Regardless of your Japanese language proficiency or the subtitles quality/accuracy when you are not both ethnically Japanese and born and raised within the confines of said country Anime is not only not intended/marketed to you but there is no way you could even possibly hope to understand the intricacies of the medium. Might as well just give up wapanese pasttimes like watching Japanime and go ahead with normal 鬼畜米兵 hobbies. Oh noes, I'm not a native speaker so I cannot hope to understand the depth and intracacies of America's Next Top Model... Now shall we get back on topic? Edited March 22, 2010 by Bri
Marzan Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Back on topic, I just finished watching Wolf's Rain and found a lot to enjoy. Great character designs, wonderful music by Yoko Kanno, a compelling storyline and absolutely no unnecessary moe or fanservice elements. The last couple of episodes are a bit tough to watch though. That was one real "kill em all" anime. I know that it's an integral part of the story and not pointless nihilism by the shows creators, but it's still a bit gut wrenching.
Ghost Train Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Example of good dub: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Buu7zGsHk
Vic Mancini Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 If you need proof of this, consider the following - a focal point is just a theoretical point in space, mathematically it could be as small as a spec of dust, yet when I focus on an object I'm not limited to just 1 pixel of it, but I can see the totality of the object pretty well. Actually that's not really true. Your field of focus may not literally be "1 pixel", but it's actually not far off. The scope of a human being's actual focus is practically laser beam narrow. 99% of your vision is peripheral and unfocused. It only feels like you can see the totality of an object because your eyes dart and twitch around and scan the object in quick little fragments that your brain pieces together, and you take the overall sense of the object in through your peripheral vision which fills in the gaps. It also feels like you see the totality of something when you've already seen it before. Like if you're looking at a familiar coffee mug from your kitchen cabinet. You already remember what most of it looks like, but in actual truth you can only focus your eyes on a few square millimeters of the coffee mug at any given time. But I will concede that you can see a lot with your peripheral vision. I'm pretty sure most of what we read is actually taken in through the unfocused peripheral side of our vision. Tests have proven that we don't read words from front to back, or letter by letter. And that we actually fix our eyes on the center of the word, or group of words, and read them as a whole. I'm sure this applies to visual details as well. So it's not like I'm trying to say that you can't see any of the visuals because your eyes are completely occupied with reading text. But the simple fact of the matter is, and I think we can all agree on this whether you are into subs or dubs, is that your actual range of focus is extremely narrow and your eyes can only be in once place at a time. It's not like you can focus them at the center of the screen and take in everything in detail through a widely flared cone of vision. Your eyes are like lasers darting around from detail to detail. If you are reading words, even quickly, then your narrow field of focus is pointed at them at the bottom of the screen. And while this is happening, even if only for fractions of a second at a time, (which add up by the way), your eyes are taking in the visuals through your peripheral vision which is only partly focused. You can't possibly focus carefully on details in the visuals...(like the way a visor curves and recesses into the mouth guard of a Valkyrie's head)...if your eyes are occupied scanning text. @Keith: I did not "claim that dubs give me the exact same experience". I claimed that it could be argued that dubs give me a more similar viewing experience to what the anime creators originally intended than relying on subs. I don't think the creators intended the voice tracks to be incomprehensible to their viewers or intended a viewer's eyes to be distracted from the visuals every time a subtitle pops up. When I watch dubbed anime, it's closer to the experience a Japanese viewer who is watching Japanese anime, has. We both watch the visuals with our eyes and listen to the dialogue with our ears.
Scream Man Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I'm over arguing about it. I'll just struggle through my pathetic attempt at fandom as best I can. Finished FMP: 2nd Raid. Not bad, but it felt sort of abridged. Now i just have to hope they anime the rest of the books so we dont end on such a meh kind of ending.
Marzan Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Finished FMP: 2nd Raid. Not bad, but it felt sort of abridged. Now i just have to hope they anime the rest of the books so we dont end on such a meh kind of ending. Doesn't seem likely at this point. 2nd Raid came out in 2005 and there hasn't even been a hint of more sequels. For closure one will have to go to the novels, and as far as I know, the story is still ongoing with the final novel coming out this year.
The Shade Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 are there english translations of the novels? The first 3 were officially released by Tokyo Pop, but the series fell victim to their downsizing a couple of years ago and they stopped releasing them. There are fan translations out there for books 4-10: a Google search might help.
The Shade Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Just finished watching Mobile Suit Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket. Somebody shoot me. Arrgghhh!!! This OVA sucked. Who's bright idea was it to put an 11 year old kid as the main character? Grrr... F*** this show!!! Next show: hopefully my Baccano DVD's can arrive by mail soon. Darn Canada Post and their slowness.
Ghost Train Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Just finished watching Mobile Suit Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket. Somebody shoot me. Arrgghhh!!! This OVA sucked. Who's bright idea was it to put an 11 year old kid as the main character? Grrr... F*** this show!!! Next show: hopefully my Baccano DVD's can arrive by mail soon. Darn Canada Post and their slowness. To be honest I really hated 0080. It's my least favorite UC Gundam. The last time I tried to explain my view to UC purists I got flamed pretty badly . There were some cool things about the show - namely that I liked the mech designs. In fact, my favorite MS is the RGM-79 Sniper which I think makes its only appearance in that show, and Gundam Alex is a nice mix of old & new. However, it just tries too obviously frakking hard to be tragic for the sole purpose of being tragic. If I wanted that, I'd go read Oedipus Rex, or Hamlet.
Gubaba Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 To be honest I really hated 0080. It's my least favorite UC Gundam. The last time I tried to explain my view to UC purists I got flamed pretty badly . There were some cool things about the show - namely that I liked the mech designs. In fact, my favorite MS is the RGM-79 Sniper which I think makes its only appearance in that show, and Gundam Alex is a nice mix of old & new. However, it just tries too obviously frakking hard to be tragic for the sole purpose of being tragic. If I wanted that, I'd go read Oedipus Rex, or Hamlet. Funny. I really don't like the mecha designs (except the Alex) since everything seems WAY too advanced for that time in the UC calendar, but I loved the story. I thought it was great how everyone was doing EXACTLY what was necessary for them to do the right thing...and then it all falls apart anyway. I also liked a lot of the deft little touches that show a little more clearly what daily life on a colony must be like.
Keith Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 I agree, 0080 is the least gundamy OVA of the Gundam OVA's. I also have a sneaking suspicion that it was made by whoever did Macross II & Orguss 02, and not just because they all shared the same periood of Mikimoto designs.
Gubaba Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 I agree, 0080 is the least gundamy OVA of the Gundam OVA's. I also have a sneaking suspicion that it was made by whoever did Macross II & Orguss 02, and not just because they all shared the same periood of Mikimoto designs. Really? I find the 08th MS Team to be much less Gundam-y than 0080...
Keith Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 08th MS had a worse tacked on final episode, but overall, 0080 made me mad, if only they had shipped the Alex straight to Amuro!!
Gubaba Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 08th MS had a worse tacked on final episode, but overall, 0080 made me mad, if only they had shipped the Alex straight to Amuro!! Ah, forget the Alex...Amuro should've gotten the G3!
bluemax151 Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Oh noes, I'm not a native speaker so I cannot hope to understand the depth and intracacies of America's Next Top Model... I appreciate that you not only reinforced the underlying theme of my post but also readily dismissed the whole medium of anime as the equivalent of vapid reality programming. In fact, my favorite MS is the RGM-79 Sniper which I think makes its only appearance in that show. The GM Sniper II is also the best unit in DC's Gundam Rise From the Ashes side story and to a lesser degree it's plays a fairly prominent role in both LWC's videogame and manga iterations. I managed to sit through both the dub and sub of Beck fairly recently and while over all they are both fairly good representations of the original,they both fail on pretty much the same points due to what I assume are copy right/intellectual property issues. BTW anyone ever sit through the Initial D dub? I've heard quite a few people speak ill of it but in all fairness the english language and mannerisms used for the dub are accurate to "ricer head' culture.
Bri Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 I appreciate that you not only reinforced the underlying theme of my post but also readily dismissed the whole medium of anime as the equivalent of vapid reality programming. No worries and I should thank you for showing that sarcasm, while universal, can be beyond the means of the individual. The vast majority of anime out there is simple, disposable entertainment, requiring virtually no cultural baggage to understand so yes, on average, anime is very much the equivalent of reality television.
The Shade Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Good to know I wasn't the only one who didn't like Gundam 0080. Yeah, the parts involving the adults was well handled, but it's unfortunate that the majority of the OVA focused on an 11 year old kid. Oh well, I'm done with it. Canada Post still haven't delivered my Baccano DVD's , so I've decided to start watching the Irresponsible Captain Tylor OVA (that's I've been putting off for a few months now).
Greyryder Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Wow. I thought I was the only one who didn't like Gundam 0080. So many problems with that show.
Dynaman Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Wow. I thought I was the only one who didn't like Gundam 0080. So many problems with that show. Mark me down as another hater. The show had promise, but when I spend half of each episode KNOWING that every character is a stupid moron (even the ones that are supposed to be smart), well that puts a damper on things. Case in point, those people have NO idea about securing nuclear weaponry... On a different note, I just finished watching Planetes, and it was worth every minute of my life spent watching it. It was good enough that I ended up watching the last 4 episodes last night instead of waiting till tonight, I had to see what would happen next.
Marzan Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Mark me down as another hater. The show had promise, but when I spend half of each episode KNOWING that every character is a stupid moron (even the ones that are supposed to be smart), well that puts a damper on things. Case in point, those people have NO idea about securing nuclear weaponry... On a different note, I just finished watching Planetes, and it was worth every minute of my life spent watching it. It was good enough that I ended up watching the last 4 episodes last night instead of waiting till tonight, I had to see what would happen next. Planetes is getting so much love that I might just have to spend my hard earned cash and check it out...But not before I watch Patlabor: The New Files...
The Shade Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Planetes is getting so much love that I might just have to spend my hard earned cash and check it out...But not before I watch Patlabor: The New Files... You get another recommendation for Planetes. The hard sci-fi aspects of it were so well handled, that it's a wonder we don't see more shows following what they did.
Bri Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Planetes is getting so much love that I might just have to spend my hard earned cash and check it out...But not before I watch Patlabor: The New Files... Seeing Planetes and Patlabor mentioned in one line kind of made me think how similar both are in some respects. Two groups of misfits going about in their daily lives. Non standard main lead characters, hmm only thing missing in Planetes is Goto. As for anime: Finished Sora no Woto: Was quite good and it had a very Macross ending, also I want a modelkit of that spider tank. Finished Munto: one time where I have to go against public opinion. It gets burned down quite often but wow on the animation front. You can see the it was a labor of love for the people at Kyoani. So many little animation details and visual experiments. I loved it. Shame they get more recognition for their far more safe romantic adaptions.
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