Official Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.2

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

at least it should not be called DX

Again DX is used by Bandai to mean deluxe. Obviously their sentai toys are not primarily geared towards collectors, yet they usually have DX mecha.

[Graham]

Trust me, if Yamato turned this out, I wouldn't even consider it... because something with that many design compromises (not even one nice mode for me to hang my hat on) AND with yamato's sketchy QC??? NO WAY, NO HOW.

Your sentence above got me thinking.

I think it’s true that if Yamato had put out something that looks like this, the outcry on Macrossworld would be far worse and we would have far more members stating they would not buy it.

Is this a case of members giving Bandai more slack?

Graham

[eugimon]

Your sentence above got me thinking.

I think it’s true that if Yamato had put out something that looks like this, the outcry on Macrossworld would be far worse and we would have far more members stating they would not buy it.

Is this a case of members giving Bandai more slack?

Graham

considering the heated debates we had about whether or not the 1/60 yf-19's wings were supposed to be angled down half a degree... I would say we hold yamato to a higher standard rather than cutting bandai slack.

[Sumdumgai]

considering the heated debates we had about whether or not the 1/60 yf-19's wings were supposed to be angled down half a degree... I would say we hold yamato to a higher standard rather than cutting bandai slack.

Oh I wouldn't agree to that 100% (I'd agree 50%). Remember all the vocal Bandai fans that were saying that if Bandai did Macross toys they would kick the crap out of Yamato in terms of sculpt, engineering,durability, and QC?

I think those hardcore Bandai fans are in denial that Bandai didn't go in with their A-game, and came in with a B/C-game. Add to that the hardcore anti-Yamato sentiments, of people willing to embrace any other company with a more positive track record on QC. There are those people who prefer chunky, toys with bad proportions for any number of reasons (they just like it, can't distinguish, don't like how the VF-25 is supposed to look). And there are those people who don't have a basis for comparison, like Sqidd.

There is that group that is willing to settle for an unnecessary compromise on the looks because it's more like a chunky-monkey (but don't call it a chunky-monkey or you'll get a number of people angry).

And the 50% of agreement is that we do hold Yamato to a higher standard, because they've pushed the development of valkyrie toys while the best that Bandai has put out are the VF-17 and VF-19 Macross 7 toys, which didn't really develop valkyrie toys past the chunky-monkey. Now Bandai is coming into the game after seeing what Yamato has done, but they kind of half-assed their way in making the VF-25.

[Chronocidal]

To be fair, it is their first high quality Valk designed in-house. There are going to be bugs to work through.

Unfortunately, I think we've become spoiled by Yamato really. Think about it.. when Yamato first began making Valks, we grabbed them up like crazy, since nothing else that good had ever been available. Yes, the Mac+ stuff had problems, and the 1/60 V1 VF-1 wasn't PT. The real boom didn't start until the 1/48 came out (and there was much rejoicing).

Now, it's several years later, and Yamato has had tons of practice at this. Despite the QC issues on some, they've consistently been producing beautiful planes, and being as faithful to the fans as possible.

Bandai is completely new to this. Let's face it, we're addicts who keep needing more and more detail/accuracy to get a Valk-based high. If Yamato had never started making Valks, and Bandai was unleashing this on a fresh market, we'd probably be much more accepting.

That being said though.. there are problems with this plane that go beyond accuracy. And the main problems are things that I seriously doubt have anything to do with the translation between CG and real manufacturing. I could almost understand the legs, but the misshapen nose and fugly gear just kill it. It makes it look like they don't care. Like imagine if DaVinci had painted the Mona Lisa with her eyes crossed, and six fingers on each hand, and refused to fix it? It's a great work of art.. but the stupid flaws left unchanged would kill an otherwise beautiful painting.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Chronocidal

[anime52k8]

Like imagine if DaVinci had painted the Mona Lisa with her eyes crossed, and six fingers on each hand, and refused to fix it? It's a great work of art.. but the stupid flaws left unchanged would kill an otherwise beautiful painting.

if someone complained to him about it having 6 fingers and he went back and changed it it would destroy any and all integrity he has as an artist. nothing in a painting is ever a "flaw," it's artistic vision. it's what the artist want's to portray and if the viewer doesn't like it they can go ahead and shove it.

(this of course is not a painting, it's a toy; a product who's purpose is to get people to buy it which is basically the opposite of what a painting is meant to do so the painting analogue doesn't even apply anyways)

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Is this a case of members giving Bandai more slack?

No it is the benefit of the doubt. This is Bandai's first entry to making a new valkyrie toy in 14 years. Graham you were around when Yamato was touting their first 1/72 YF-19, and you KNOW they were given a ton of slack because the designs they were making toys of were damn complicated, and as always said in their defense, they were a new company, a smaller one too. Now years later and after flawed after flawed first runs, qc mishaps more prevalent than Bandai, new toys based on mecha they already did before(1/60 Macross plus valks, 3 variable incarnations of the VF-1) of course everyone expects more from Yamato now. We are used to what Yamato offers, they haven't changed their bad qc habits to the point of eradicating their problems yet. Yes we are aware that accuracy wise, they will do well, but quality wise is suspect. Me, I actually like a lot of Yamato's products, I like the accuracy they choose to pursue, however their pursuit of accuracy and aesthetics is not matched by the quality of their products with regards to durability. Yes these are catered to adults but these are not model kits, expect them to be handled. Yet whenever this is brought up, it is always pointed out that Yamato is a smaller company than Bandai and the others. If you want to decimate the competition you have to best them in each category, simply looking the part is not enough. If that were the case, we all mineswell be kitbashing Hasegawas or building garage kits. One cannot tell me this is impossible, Yamato has grown over the years, I have followed their growth since the first day the YF-19 was announced by Toycom, and with technology advancing rapidly, as well as Yamato's skill level, Yamato has come close to making an all around great product free of qc. Yet what happens? I open the v2 1/60 and learn first hand, that the shoulder issue gets in the way of making it a highly durable toy. Honestly had that issue been rectified, the new 1/60 would have fared far better in my eyes.

So in conclusion it's all about what I am used to and what I come to expect. With Yamato I already know what I'm in for. It may look great, but break bad. With bandai their track record for durability is much, much higher, however this is their first foray into making all new valks in years, so I don't know what to expect just yet aside durability. Had they been making all new Macross toys these past few years, then yes I would have something to gage them by, but as of yet, I won't be able to till I handle their 25.

And the 50% of agreement is that we do hold Yamato to a higher standard, because they've pushed the development of valkyrie toys

Pushed development of accuracy. As far as making durable toys...so damn close on the v2 1/60. So fart1ng close...

while the best that Bandai has put out are the VF-17 and VF-19 Macross 7 toys, which didn't really develop valkyrie toys past the chunky-monkey.

Not a fair comparison. Those were from the mid 90's. Yamato's Macross Plus toys arrived starting in 2000, and definitely catered to an older audience. Now if the Macross 7 valks were targeted to adults then that would be some sad sh1t but truth is they were catered to kids. Different markets to cater to, different design priorities.

There are those people who prefer chunky, toys with bad proportions for any number of reasons (they just like it, can't distinguish, don't like how the VF-25 is supposed to look)

Whether those are bad proportions or not are in the eyes of the buyer, me personally, I don't mind the look in battroid mode except for the megacock of doom. Seems like everyone is drooling at the 1/100 and the head on that looks huge to me, even more so than the DX.

Add to that the hardcore anti-Yamato sentiments, of people willing to embrace any other company with a more positive track record on QC.

I wouldn't call it hardcore anti-Yamato sentiments, I for one am not anti-Yamato, I am anti-toys-breaking-that-really-shouldn't. Yamatos would be more enjoyable if they were more durable and I don't know anyone that would disagree with that. Hell if Bandai entering this market, pissing Yamato off by getting the 1/60 Macross F license, and not being able to have the license for years spurs Yamato to improve their durability to the point of matching, if not besting Bandai, how the fu*k is that a bad thing? The more variety, the better. The higher the chances of increased quality by both sides. Maybe even undercutting each other's msrp so that prices end up lower overall. I am all for that.

[Chronocidal]

if someone complained to him about it having 6 fingers and he went back and changed it it would destroy any and all integrity he has as an artist. nothing in a painting is ever a "flaw," it's artistic vision. it's what the artist want's to portray and if the viewer doesn't like it they can go ahead and shove it.

(this of course is not a painting, it's a toy; a product who's purpose is to get people to buy it which is basically the opposite of what a painting is meant to do so the painting analogue doesn't even apply anyways)

Good point actually, I guess paintings are a bad example. Art can be interpretive that way, and the commercial market has its own ways. What I mean is that leaving flaws in that, even if the overall result is good, has a way of tainting the whole thing.

If this were a mainstream aircraft replica, something like an F-14 or F-18, people would just show their opinion with where they took their money, since there are multiple manufacturers of stuff like that. Unfortunately, Bandai is the only option for getting a VF-25 of any kind, so they really aren't losing any business to anyone else by not fixing the problems.

[daflip702]

dang 2 weeks of vacay and missed all of the bandai bashing.....sigh*

Oh well, Now its really looking like crap to me.....

I recall seeing a pic earlier about Ozma's neck being lost....looks like it wants to give itself a hummer.

The "DX" is the proper marking/title for this toy.....Tilt head to the right to see what i mean.

Edited October 31, 2008 by daflip702

[drifand]

Thank you Shin Densetsu Kai for such a reasoned and balanced post. Sums up my feelings exactly.

[badboy00z]

They lose the business of the people who want a closer representation of the VF-25. I canceled my pre order when the more recent pictures were released. Maybe I'll get one when I see reviews and such. Or I might wait to see if a version 2 ever gets released or when/ if Yamato makes one.

I would be happy if they just scaled up the model, used thicker plastic, better joints and did the painting and assembling for us. Which is pretty much what a toy is... I couldn't care less for retractable landing gears either.

[drifand]

They lose the business of the people who want a closer representation of the VF-25. I canceled my pre order when the more recent pictures were released...

Fair enough. That's a close parallel to what I've been going through with regards to Yamato releases since my CAD-perfected VF-0S fell apart. We all have different needs and expectations.

[Graham]

IMO, the DX title from Bandai is just a meaningless marketing ploy and doesn't really denote 'deluxe'.

Bandai slaps the DX title on loads of stuff, even including the kiddy Super Sentai robots toys.

As I've mentioned before, the 1/65 VF-17 & VF-19 toys had the 'DX' title and they were far, far from what I would consider a deluxe toy.

Graham

[kensei]

I'd forgive EVERYTHING about it if they just fixed ONE thing. And that is the head in Battroid mode.

I have complaints about some other things like the knees, but the head MUST be fixed.

[Graham]

The head on Alto's VF-25F seems to be fine and actually has a neck, it's just Ozma's VF-25S that has no neck and seems to be doing a turtle impression in every photo.

I guess I can live with it, as Ozma's VF-25S is desintined to live in fighter mode most of the time, to display his wickedly cool emblem.

Graham

[badboy00z]

I think a sliding mechanism (like the ones in newer MG kits) in the crotch would solve the hip placement problem. The design of the VF-25 requires the hips to slide forwards and backwards when transforming. The model got that part right with the swing bar but the DX team were just lazy. Now I wonder why they didn't use the sliding thing on the model. The swing bar is pretty ugly.

Edited November 1, 2008 by badboy00z

[Master Dex]

The head on Alto's VF-25F seems to be fine and actually has a neck, it's just Ozma's VF-25S that has no neck and seems to be doing a turtle impression in every photo.

I guess I can live with it, as Ozma's VF-25S is desintined to live in fighter mode most of the time, to display his wickedly cool emblem.

Graham

This probably has something to do with the fact that Alto's VF-25 head rotates when transforming to battroid whereas Ozma's is always facing forward unlike the other 25s. This bodes well that Mikhail's battroid head will have a neck if so. I still think that something can be done about that head though, is it possible the neck is hiding and the transforming guy didn't pull it out?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

As I've mentioned before, the 1/65 VF-17 & VF-19 toys had the 'DX' title and they were far, far from what I would consider a deluxe toy.

DX denotes the size of the toy. For example if there is a sentai mecha in a show, the smaller toy of it would not be called DX. The biggest version would be. You know most sentai toys are not elaborately detailed and barely articulated, so DX for Bandai has always denoted a bigger size.

[David Hingtgen]

This probably has something to do with the fact that Alto's VF-25 head rotates when transforming to battroid whereas Ozma's is always facing forward unlike the other 25s. This bodes well that Mikhail's battroid head will have a neck if so. I still think that something can be done about that head though, is it possible the neck is hiding and the transforming guy didn't pull it out?

I think it has more to do with the fact that Ozma's has a different chestplate than Alto's, but the DX ignores this fact and uses Alto's chestplate with Ozma's head---thus, the head looks too low. (because the chestplate's too high--Ozma's chestplate is physically shorter than Alto's)

Specifically--Ozma's chestplate has a big "curve" at the top, to accomodate the head in fighter mode---this is also a nice "cut-away" to reveal the neck, since Ozma's has a long chin. By using the Alto chesplate, the upper edge of the plate is higher and straight, covering up the neck, and almost touching the chin. I'll try to draw and post a sketch later.

[Master Dex]

I think it has more to do with the fact that Ozma's has a different chestplate than Alto's, but the DX ignores this fact and uses Alto's chestplate with Ozma's head---thus, the head looks too low. (because the chestplate's too high--Ozma's chestplate is physically shorter than Alto's)

Specifically--Ozma's chestplate has a big "curve" at the top, to accomodate the head in fighter mode---this is also a nice "cut-away" to reveal the neck, since Ozma's has a long chin. By using the Alto chesplate, the upper edge of the plate is higher and straight, covering up the neck, and almost touching the chin. I'll try to draw and post a sketch later.

Fascinating, I never noticed this but it makes perfect sense. You'd think that they would see they need to remodel the chest plate for Ozma then. Well you win some and you lose some.

[David Hingtgen]

Well, someone at Bandai knows---the model kits have different chest plates for Alto and Ozma.

[Graham]

Another difference is that Ozma's chest plate also has two small blisters on the top rear edge that line up with corresponding blisters on the top of the head. Again, the model kit got this right, the toy does not.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

I wasn't doing a full list of Ozma vs Alto differences. (backplate's different too, again to accomodate the head)

[Twoducks]

Well, someone at Bandai knows---the model kits have different chest plates for Alto and Ozma.

Another difference is that Ozma's chest plate also has two small blisters on the top rear edge that line up with corresponding blisters on the top of the head. Again, the model kit got this right, the toy does not.

Graham

You sirs have done me a favour. I'll stick with just the Alto DX and also go for the model Ozma.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Twoducks

[Fly4victory]

- Crap seeing that the fast packs will be a limited/hard to get item or a bundle in the future.

Voted with my money, canceled both Alto and Ozma pre-orders.

Make things limited/exclusive releases and Bandai is not getting my money.

Especially since the Ozma is not made with the correct parts.

If the fast packs and armor are general releases in the future then I may buy a 1/60 but right now I am sticking with the models.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Itching to see if everything is painted on and if Ozma's head can be pulled up. I want heavy armor, and mass market super armor parts!

[Shaggydog]

I don't get this 'cutting slack' business. 12 pages of nonstop bitching, not even counting the many pages in the previous thread. I think the Yamato partisans are feeling a little sorry for themselves. That said, I would agree that the appearance of Yamato's toys is held to an insane, ridiculous standard around here - not by me, though. Isn't it the same group of obsessives that attack both companies with absurdly nitpicky 'accuracy' issues? Of course, Yamato invites it in a sense - their main selling point is 'accuracy' (it sure as hell ain't 'play value', not for the transforming toys, at least). So, Yamato has to sleep in the bed they made. Still, I think all of Yamato's toys have been fantastic looking by my standards, I honestly can't think of an ugly toy they've made. Even the much-maligned v1 1/60 vf-1 was pretty, to me.

[Salamander]

DX denotes the size of the toy. For example if there is a sentai mecha in a show, the smaller toy of it would not be called DX. The biggest version would be. You know most sentai toys are not elaborately detailed and barely articulated, so DX for Bandai has always denoted a bigger size.

Can this PLEASE be stickied so it shows up at the top of every page?

So people stop making the same remark, and getting the same answer on (almost) every single page of this thread.

Also, to the trolls: Yes, we understand you think the Bandai VF-25 DX is one ugly sonnovab*tch. No need to repeat it every five posts. Thanks.

Perhaps the points of contention should also be stickied.

As for the whole 'CG 3D accuracy should make it possible to make a perfect toy'-debate, I have terrible trouble to determine whether people are just trolling or are really that clueless regarding the differences between CG and reality.

Lemme sum this up:

CG Models:

1. CG does indeed give access to a 3D representation of a subject.
2. However, as long as no realistic internal structures are defined in the model there is no clue how transformation would work...
3. ...disregarding the movements of rendered structures as defined in the rendering and animation program.
4. Internal structures and movement of outer structures may involve morphing (that is, changes of shape that often are impossible in reality) in 3D CG.
5. Movement may involve parts rotating in a way that would be impossible in reality due to physical constraints.

Reality:

1. Physical constraints such as flexibility etc. limit what you can do with a material.
2. Costs of production and raw materials limit the number of items you may be able to sell.
3. A CG model with no internal structures may not translate to a perfect real-life model due to movements that are impossible without special internal structures.
4. The three preceding points interact.

Now let me give you an analogy:

My other hobby is RC model cars. Here we basicly have three different extremes:

1. The toy car - this I won't even consider. It's a toy, cheap, bad design (analogue to a train-station toy).
2. The entry-level 'real' RC car. You build it up yourself, and it might be somewhat improveable. Yet it will always remain clunky, heavy, inaccurate, with not-so-excellent handling (think chunky monkey).
3. The all-out-competition car. Again, you build it up yourself, but this time can improve everything if you wish to do so. It is made from high-grade materials such as carbon fiber and aluminium. Everything is tuneable, it is light, fast, excellent handling, really good quality (think CM's Corporation uber-expensive collector's toy).

Now the first car would be ultra-cheap (<$25, otherwise you're getting ripped), and not worth of my consideration. The second would be too limited ($60), but might be a fun toy for non-racing purposes. The third is likely to be really, really expensive ($500-$600), but I'd be buying a really good competition machine.

Now anyone with a bit of a clue might be able to guess that the most expensive will be sold in the smallest quantities (no more than a few 100), followed by the entry-level 'real' RC car with quite a bit more sales, and then the cheapie will get most sales (kids).

Now I already named CM's. They make rather expensive limited run toys that are often quite excellent quality for limited run toys, and cater to collectors of small all-but-forgotten franchises (so does Yamato in a way, except they're cheaper (but IMHO not better)). Bandai is not CM's or Yamato. They do not cater to those top-of-the-line collectors. They cater to everyone below those people, from kiddies to collectors, but usually only to franchises they can make a lot of money in.

Macross Frontier is no different than Code Geass to them. Sure, they see an opportunity to get some more money in by milking the nostalgia (VF100's), but the main line of Macross F.

So they are going to cater to the whole audience of Macross F, and not only the hardcore whining adult collectors. Now that calls for toys that are not top-of-the-line.

I'm pretty sure that Bandai could design and make a perfect transformation, perfectly accurate, perfectly designed, super-sturdy toy of the VF-25. With parts that would fit like they were mated by the gods themselves. Using the best of the best engineering and materials. It would be stellar.

Except that they would perhaps only sell 5 of them. Because such a toy would need to make use of technological feats and materials that would drive the price up to a lot more than 12,000 yen. Eg. SoC Irongear, which doesn't use that much diecast nor that complicated engineering is already 18,000 yen. I think we might be looking at at least as much as 30,000 yen (just over the price of CM's Legioss + Tread (28,000 yen)). That's without the armor by the way.

Would you pay that for a VF-25 sans armor?

I wouldn't. Nor would a lot of other people. Parents certainly wouldn't.

So we get a compromise at a price where Bandai thinks they'll be able to sell as many of them as possible. I'm pretty sure that Kawamori realises it could be better. He'll also realise that pushing the engineering and the price up too much will alienate potential customers.

Sure, I also think the landing gear is somewhat ugly and hope it extends. I also hope that people missed some tabs in those pictures, so the fighter mode will hold together better.

But I do not burn it into the ground, just because it does not match my absurdly high standards. I'm already happy that we're getting these toys. Most importantly, without Bandai Macross F wouldn't have been there, likely.

(Frankly, if I were a Bandai engineer looking at this forum I'd think "screw it, we're ditching the project"...too much negativity kills people's desire to cater to you.)

Now I hope people take the time to actually read instead of immediately screaming OMGhedaredtouselogicalthinkinginapproachingthis!

[Sumdumgai]

The CG models excuse doesn't cut it. Look at the Yamato VF-0 or SV-51, which were adapted from CG models. They are absolutely fantastic looking, very well sculpted, and very faithful to the original design and essence of their respectable variable fighters. Take out Yamato's problem with QC out of the equation, we're talking about design here. Prior to Macross Zero everything was hand animated without transformable cg models, so those designs get a lot more slack. And the reason I bring up Yamato is because of the bar that they have set, and they are a smaller company with less resources.

The VF-0 is a damned solid design (I don't know about the SV-51 from personal experience as I do not own one) that looks pretty damned close to the cg model. The SV-51 is damned impressive. Bandai could definitely put out something better than what they're preparing to dump out, without having to compromise on structural integrity. They're just either lazy or don't give a crap as Macross is not a big name like Gundam or Saint Seiya.

Now Bandai could do just as good as Yamato did, in terms of design, and the consensus is that Bandai would put out toys with better QC anyway.

Bandai did not have to take the fatty approach, didn't have to cut corners with the shopping cart landing gear, the low hanging legs that don't connect to the body, the recycling of parts that gives Ozma's VF-25 no neck. Even with compromises, they could have done better. The VF-0 doesn't have the super thin bars that swing the legs down, the toy isn't 100% accurate because of this, but it's a minimal compromise that doesn't affect the look of that valkyrie in any of the modes.

Bandai knows that there is a market for Macross valkyries, they have to know about Yamato, they put their VF-25 in the same scale. They could have easily designed something to rival Yamato, pull over disgruntled and non-disgruntled fans, and on top of that pull in the general fan at a decent price.

There's a lot about the VF-25 toy that just reeks of laziness and takes out the essence of that design. It's fantastic and all that Bandai has its hardcore fans that cry out "leave bandai alone you trolls! It looks just fine! You're all too whiny and too demanding! Your'e standards are too high!". But so far none of the counter-arguments have been convincing. There've been "it looks fine to me" and a lot of "well it has to be designed this way, cut them some slack they're Bandai". And there's been some agreement that Bandai is cheaping out and not going in with their A-game. Otherwise I've only seen some apologetic excuses for Bandai.

Some of you are just so desperate for a VF-25 toy that you would accept Bandai putting out an actual old-school style chunky-monkey of the VF-25 (and have that as the only perfect transformation toy of the VF-25) and say that people are too demanding and have their standards too high.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The CG models excuse doesn't cut it. Look at the Yamato VF-0 or SV-51, which were adapted from CG models. They are absolutely fantastic looking, very well sculpted, and very faithful to the original design and essence of their respectable variable fighters.

Yes and just how long did they have to work on those? Also, a more appropriate comparison is between Yamato's 1/100 VF-0 compared to it's onscreen counterpart, and Bandai's VF100 VF-25 compare to it's onscreen counterpart. It is also obvious that the animators themselves don't even know where the landing gear are supposed to go as they show up in different locations(nose area) depending on which episodes you watch.

And the reason I bring up Yamato is because of the bar that they have set, and they are a smaller company with less resources.

Well they need to set that bar higher for quality. They are oft compared as being the David that brought down Goliath(Bandai) with regards to accuracy of Macross toys, yet whenever the durability/sturdiness is brought up, the whole "they are a smaller company" defense is brought up. With the new 1/60 VF-1S they came so f**king close and yes I have even said that they are a smaller company in their defense. Now obviously it costs a lot for them to even make a valkyrie of high accuracy, but why isn't some of that money being spent towards durability or at least competent factory workers who don't make stupid mistakes? This is the case of having one over the other and there is no excuse. Making a toy more durable is a lot easier than making something highly accurate. Does anyone really mean to tell me that the broken VF-0S arms, the BP8, the breaking 1/60 shoulders, and many other various parts over the years were more expensive to prevent than taking the time to make something very accurate to it's onscreen counterpart and perfect variable? I would think Yamato broke more sweat and banks trying to figure out how to make the new 1/60 look more TV accurate and better in all three modes than than coming up with a more durable shoulder hinge. Designing a durable hinge is not as expensive as spending an assload of time and resources on making something accurate and perfect variable. A simple change of materials might even help the 1/60 shoulder hinge, as it would have on the BP8 and others. Hell a simple change of materials IS what made the difference between the TAB B on the 1st 1/72 YF-19, and the 1.5. Some may say that part was overlooked for the sake of concentrating on accuracy. That to me, would be a stupid oversight.

Otherwise I've only seen some apologetic excuses for Bandai.

The majority of posts in this forum for years have been apologetic excuses for Yamato.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

[gingaio]

Your sentence above got me thinking.

I think it’s true that if Yamato had put out something that looks like this, the outcry on Macrossworld would be far worse and we would have far more members stating they would not buy it.

Is this a case of members giving Bandai more slack?

If Yamato puts out something like this, then the collectors who've been waiting for Yamato to put out a sturdy toy will be happy.

Given the perpetual hue and cry on this board, it's obvious that there are multiple strains of collectors with varying levels of expectations for sturdiness and accuracy, and that people tend to, generally speaking, favor one over the other.

What I don't understand is why people need to think about this as the Bloods vs. the Crips. Or Biggie vs. Tupac. Or Cobra vs. GI Joe. Some people here seem intent on making sure that one company's products are perceived as superior to the other's, or vice-versa. That I don't get.

"Cutting Bandai more slack" suggests that toy collectors care more about a label on a box than the toy inside. Speaking strictly for myself, I'm really not that big of a moron. If Yamato ever puts out a sturdy, non-delicate transformable toy, I'm there. Until then, I will pour my money into Bandai's coffers.

Edited November 2, 2008 by gingaio

[gingaio]

Also, I would add that people are now talking excitedly about the Frontier valks not because they're "forgiving of Bandai's sins," but because for the first time in quite some time, people now have an alternative to Yamato as far as new Macross toys.

This place has been a Yamato fanatic haven partly because Yamato's been the only game in town. Now, people who prefer something other than what Yamato has to offer have a choice. Hence the excitement. Hence the unsubstantiated praise and equally unsubstantiated detractions (toy hasn't come out yet, folks). Hence the ongoing Biggie vs. Tupac vs. Yamato war.

Edited November 2, 2008 by gingaio

[Hereticpoo]

Man, I just come to this thread to find new pictures. You guys still arguing about the toy that hasn't been released? Not even TF fans are that crazy. I think the toy has massive hips that are ugly but if i had the cash I'd still buy it. Haters, it ain't gonna change....stop the hate, somebody somewhere loves you!

[Ghost Train]

We'll hit Ver. 3 of this thread before it's released, guaranteed.

[Graham]

Bandai are offering the 1/60 DX VF-25F and VF-25S for 12,000 Yen, which is 4,800 Yen cheaper than the similar size Yamato VF-0 and 6,800 Yen cheaper than the similar size Yamato 1/60 YF-19. This is great for consumers in these troubled economic times.

I remember many people rejoiced when the cost of the VF-25 was announced. However, obviously, the cheaper price means some corners have been cut and we are not getting quite the same level of features, accuracy and gimmicks as we have been used to from Yamato. I think many of us need to move on and learn to accept this.

I guess at the lower price point, it's unreasonable to expect as many feature and gimmicks compared with the Yamato offerings. This cheaper price point is obviously why we are not getting things such as translucent nose sensors or nose verniors made of separate pieces of plastic, which are par for the course for Yamato. Instead on the Bandai they are just engraved on. The cheaper price is probably also the reason for things like the cheap looking landing gear and the incorrect 'one-type-fits all' chest plates, instead on the individually sculpted chest plates.

On the plus side, according to the Japanese press, we will be getting a higher level of durability. And from the pics so far, it does seem like Bandai have included all the panel lines from the line art, which is a good thing.

I do still hold though that the designers could easily have made a more anime accurate looking toy, without increasing cost and probably without sacrificing durability. It does seem that the chunkiness and downward droopiness of the nose was a deliberate design choice, rather than a necessity.

Anyway, while I'll probably never love the toy, I am trying had to learn to at least like it based on the latest GA Graphics photos.

Not a hater, was just expecting better from Bandai.

Graham