Official Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.2

[VFTF1]

I think we need to take a deep breath and dirrect our ANALysis towards the question of WHEN THE #$%#q!$ are these finally gonna come out?!?!?

Pete

[badboy00z]

I wonder if there's any hope in getting an anime accurate version later down the line?

[VFTF1]

I wonder if there's any hope in getting an anime accurate version later down the line?

I want a "Ranka Gaurd Alto" - they could include the decal stickers from the Subaru Ranka set - those things would look WICKED COOL on a VF-1 - probably a VF-25 as well:)

Pete

[Golden Arms]

I wonder if there's any hope in getting an anime accurate version later down the line?

Probably not. Bandai had all the time in the world to get this thing right and you see what they decided to put out. I bet future iterations of the vf-25 will have minor fixes or improvements over the initial release toys that are coming out later this month.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

In other words wait years for Yamato's turn.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Probably not. Bandai had all the time in the world to get this thing right and you see what they decided to put out. I bet future iterations of the vf-25 will have minor fixes or improvements over the initial release toys that are coming out later this month.

It is obvious that they chose to make their toys based on a version that Kawamori wanted them to work off of, otherwise the 1/100 wouldn't have come with the hips attached high, especially considering that piece is swappable to begin with. Bandai has made toys before off of versions that do not either appear in the main series, or exist mainly in concept work or sketches. Gundam has a ton of this in their plamo line, and a Dragonar was made on the OP version, which is different than what it appears in the anime. I don't look at the DX VF-25s as Bandai's inability to create an accurate VF-25 toy, I look at it as being based on a VF-25 design different from the anime version, which the model kit has covered. This isn't like the Macross 7 line from '94 where they decided to make the DX Fire Valkyrie for kids and emphasized everything else but accuracy, though I do realize that no matter how true this statement is, it still won't change anyone's minds who think that Bandai intentionally sabotaged their own project just to prove that they could.

[eugimon]

It's not obvious at all, the one sketch we've seen has significant differences between the anime and the DX versions.

[edwin3060]

I think we need to take a deep breath and dirrect our ANALysis towards the question of WHEN THE #$%#q!$ are these finally gonna come out?!?!?

Pete

Well, the current trend seems to be 2 Valkyries every 3 months, which is a pretty good pace I think (at least for my wallet!). So, I figure maybe another year of milking the VF-25, plus the Macross Quarter, before we see other stuff like the VF-27? Unless maybe they are planning something special in the middle of next year, to coincide with the release of the movie?

About the hips issue-- after looking at all the arguments I think the most likely one is still: Reduced cost, increased durability. Bandai has already stated that the toys are designed for increased durability, and the tiny plastic swing bar of the model kits is definitely not conducive to durability (especially since the legs seem to be so heavy that they hang lower in fighter mode, AND you have to factor in attachment of the Super pack parts for the legs). Also, the hip design that they have gone with has lower tolerances and less parts than the model kit, so production and assembly are all simplified, leading to lower costs. This is a win-win for both the customers and Bandai, imo (except for the ones who go for perfect anime accuracy).

[jenius]

Yeah, it's not obvious WHY the DX looks different from the anime but the fact the 1/72 is a dead ringer makes it obvious that there were decisions made behind every difference we see in the DX. I thought it had been figured out that the hips have to be like they are on the DX to accomodate being able to pose the toy in an A-stance as the intake would otherwise press against the waist. At any rate, it's this toy and the Beagle Mospeada that I'm looking forward to the most right now.

[badboy00z]

I'm tired of the "it's SK's vision of the VF-25". I don't care if it is or not. It's still ugly and untrue to the anime. Why didn't he make the anime look like that? It's not because it wasn't possible...

[drifand]

Yeah, well, some of us are tired of expensive toys/models that break unexpectedly... didn't happen in the anime either, except under heavy enemy fire.

[eugimon]

And that has what to do with the DX looking like neither Kawamori's sketches or the anime?

[Dobber]

Thank you.

Chris

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I'm tired of the "it's SK's vision of the VF-25". I don't care if it is or not. It's still ugly and untrue to the anime. Why didn't he make the anime look like that? It's not because it wasn't possible...

Maybe things came up? Who knows. Also, I think the current DX toy looks better than the one in the anime, in battroid mode. When I first saw the CG models for the 25 in battroid mode, it took a while for me to get used to, and I warmed up to it after watching the anime. Nonetheless, I would have preferred a bulkier look.

And that has what to do with the DX looking like neither Kawamori's sketches or the anime?

There are probably more sketches to be revealed later on that the DX is more accurate too. As it is, it is closer to the VF-25 in the sketches than it is in the anime.I think the japanese market is just used to having more rendition of any given mecha in model kit and toy form, having a choice between toy and model, whereas the western market is used to just getting either a toy, in this case most of you wanted something that Yamato has given; show accurate(for the most part) perfect variable toys with no other option.

Yeah, well, some of us are tired of expensive toys/models that break unexpectedly... didn't happen in the anime either, except under heavy enemy fire.

Agreed

[edwin3060]

And that has what to do with the DX looking like neither Kawamori's sketches or the anime?

Like I said, durability and cost. Anime accurate toys might be too fragile or too expensive or both. I'm discounting the whole Kawamori sketch argument, actually.

[VFTF1]

I remain in the minority of one and still say that it looks just fine, and I don't see it as being hugely different from the anime and I think we will all be very pleasantly surprised.

Either that or it'll turn out that it transformers like Bassara's old VF-19 fron Bandai, and you have to remove the legs and put stickers on the face or something

Pete

[Golden Arms]

I LOVE how some of us assume that this toy will be durable as a 1/55. It hasn't been released yet. Lets wait till it has before we proclaim its superior durablilty. The SPEC eva 01 is a prime example that even Bandai can F#@^ up from time to time. Mine didn't have the hip problems that others encountered, so I didn't throw Bandai under the Bus at the time.

The hip area on the vf-25 doesn't explain the lack of a neck on the OZUMA version, nor the truncated landing gear, or the overly wide shoulders and arms.

The visual aesthetic is most important to me with collectible toys. Durability is for 13 yr old children. I don't collect my toys to play with them every night. Most of My valks stay in either battroid or fighter mode for months or yrs on end. If I want durability I'll start playing with legos. Complex transforming collectible toys aimed at adults are not going to be a durable as a $13 transfomer on sale at Wal Mart.

[AcroRay]

For the record: Looks fine to me. A little chunky compared to the anime, but I don't like the thin build of the anime mech anyway, so the interpretation works for me. (I like 'em a little more curvy! Kind'a like Klan in the episode interstitials, rather than in her first episode appearance...)

[promethuem5]

I just went thru enough pages of this thread to see some nice pics... I haven't watched MacF yet (gonna try and plow thru it this weekend), but I like the general design, and Bandai looks to have made a sweet toy. I know nothing about the anime-accuracy of the figure, and at the end of the day I probably won't care... but I'm curious, does anyone have some proper visual comparisons that outline the 'most grievous' of the inaccuracies this thread seems to be super butthurt over? All I've seen so far is the special preview episode 1 that aired like last Xmas, and the toy seems to look like the valks in that from what I remember

[David Hingtgen]

Hip/leg position compared to the crotch piece: (or you can use the nosecone as a fixed reference point)

[Vifam7]

The hip area on the vf-25 doesn't explain the lack of a neck on the OZUMA version,

We do not know if it's truncated or not. And if it is, what the reason for it is.

nor the truncated landing gear, or the overly wide shoulders and arms.

Until we examine the toy, it's hard to determine whether a longer gear was/is possible.

or the overly wide shoulders and arms.

Never noticed it as an issue. Might just well be Kawamori tinkering with his own design.

The visual aesthetic is most important to me with collectible toys. Durability is for 13 yr old children. I don't collect my toys to play with them every night. Most of My valks stay in either battroid or fighter mode for months or yrs on end. If I want durability I'll start playing with legos. Complex transforming collectible toys aimed at adults are not going to be a durable as a $13 transfomer on sale at Wal Mart.

While aesthetic is important, for a collectible "toy", durability is also super important (IMHO). Because no matter how good it looks, once a toy is broken, it's value as a collectible drops like rock. If you can't play with a transformable toy for utter fear of it breaking then what's the purpose of it being a "transformable toy"?

Edited December 12, 2008 by Vifam7

[Golden Arms]

The nose/ fuselage are plenty long enough to accomodate longer landing gear. Look at the sv-51 for an example. If it wasn't they could've made the landing gears collapseable as an alternative.

Thanks for the pic Dave. That illustrates what is probably 70 % of what is wrong with the Bandai version IMO.

The bandai shoulders make the toy look like movie starscream, which is not good.

I'm not saying transformable toys shouldn't be durable. They should. What I am saying is that with increased complexity you are going to have toys that aren't as rugged as a toy aimed at young Western children. I think alot of us forget this fact.

[Tober]

I haven't been keeping up with this cos of other stuff and I couldn't see the answers skimming through, so 3 quick questions:

Has it been established yet if the Ozma version has a neck?

Are the Alto and Ozma still being released simultaniously?

Has Ozma's Super Pack exclusive been announced and if so how much can I expect to pay for it?

Thanks.

[jenius]

Think of the Taka 1/55. One of the most beloved collectibles of our fandom... huge liberties taken with the look to make the toy a friggin' rock you could literally bludgeon someone to death with. It seems adults are forgetting just how important durability is these days with comments about how they don't care if their Yamatos might fall apart because of how pretty they look. People who think this way are definitely in the minority in the toy fandom even if they are the loudest posters on toy forums.

[eugimon]

Think of the Taka 1/55. One of the most beloved collectibles of our fandom... huge liberties taken with the look to make the toy a friggin' rock you could literally bludgeon someone to death with. It seems adults are forgetting just how important durability is these days with comments about how they don't care if their Yamatos might fall apart because of how pretty they look. People who think this way are definitely in the minority in the toy fandom even if they are the loudest posters on toy forums.

and the G1 optimus prime had legs that would break off at the thighs if you looked at them funny. What's your point?

And yamatos don't fall apart because of how they look, they fall apart because someone chooses crap plastics to used in high stress areas.

Edited December 12, 2008 by eugimon

[VFTF1]

You know - for all this talk about how durable the chunky monkey is, all I ever found in toy and hobby shops across the USA were BROKEN JETFIRES. Broken backpack hinges mainly.

Now - I understand that I'm being a bit of a jerk here (and doing so in jest so don't kill me), and I also understand that adults usually handle things with more care than little kids - and the ENTIRE G1 line up was fairly delicate for little kids toys (the "backs" of the Autobots, the doors, etc etc) - but still - the point is that this idealizing of the durability of the 1/55 is a bit just that - an idealization...

As to the pic posted by Grace (aka David: ) ...

All I see in that pick is that the DX is posed improperly. That's like throwing up a pick of the Nora from Zero and then showing Yamato's Nora improperly posed. People often straighten the crotch on Valkyries because they tend to anthropomorphize the figure and instinctivly try to pose it as though it were a guy - and guys don't walk around thrusting their crotches out... but Valkyrie do - so - when you get your DX, just thrust out the crotch

Pete

[Vifam7]

And yamatos don't fall apart because of how they look, they fall apart because someone chooses crap plastics to used in high stress areas.

Not saying this is absolutely the case with Yamato products but - sometimes a hardline approach to aesthetics can lead to over-complexity which in turn raises the possibilty of QC issues or unforseen problems - particularly when it comes to mass-produced products.

[eugimon]

Not saying this is absolutely the case with Yamato products but - sometimes a hardline approach to aesthetics can lead to over-complexity which in turn raises the possibilty of QC issues or unforseen problems - particularly when it comes to mass-produced products.

I agree with that and even with yamatos, you'll see they've deviated on a number of occasions for of durability and easability of play. The swing bar on the VF-1 and VF-0 is hardly anime accurate, nor is the new FAST pack nacelle attachment scheme.

I'm just saying, all we know is that the DX deviates in a few areas from the anime, and even kawamori's sketches... we don't know WHY they deviate. So all this talk about it being based off of unpublished sketches or that it's impossible to be accurate and durable... it's just speculation.

And I still don't see how the legs not sitting flush in fighter mode helps durability, playability or aesthetics, but I still have that's an issue with them not transforming it right.

[edwin3060]

I agree with that and even with yamatos, you'll see they've deviated on a number of occasions for of durability and easability of play. The swing bar on the VF-1 and VF-0 is hardly anime accurate, nor is the new FAST pack nacelle attachment scheme.

I'm just saying, all we know is that the DX deviates in a few areas from the anime, and even kawamori's sketches... we don't know WHY they deviate. So all this talk about it being based off of unpublished sketches or that it's impossible to be accurate and durable... it's just speculation.

And I still don't see how the legs not sitting flush in fighter mode helps durability, playability or aesthetics, but I still have that's an issue with them not transforming it right.

Good point about the swing bar eugimon, especially since the VF-0 is supposed to have the thin pieces like thinner versions of the VF-25 LERXes for the transformation-- the Toynami 1/100 VF-1, for all it's faults, actually has some form of this which I think is interesting.

Yes I know it's just speculation, but thats what this thread is about, IMO-- 10% pictures of the actual product and 90% speculation-- the speculation is what maintains interest in the toys and keeps the thread going until the toy actually comes out and everybody can see how silly their speculations were, or how right they are, so let's not discount the speculations.

Now for more speculation-- based on the pictures of the DX VF-25G and RVF-25 w/ Super packs, I put forward that the legs not sitting flush is due to the need to accomodate the engine mounted Super packs, which extend to the back of the legs and increase the thickness there somewhat, leaving some spaces and gaps when the Super packs are not equipped. You will notice that both the model kit, and the 1/100, which have no mounting points/holes for the super packs, have legs that are correctly positioned with no gaps. So, in this case it has nothing to do with durability, playability or aesthetics, but the Super packs.

Golden arms: I think the lack of a neck was attributed to a mistransformation, either early in this thread, or in the version 1 of this thread.

[promethuem5]

Hip/leg position compared to the crotch piece: (or you can use the nosecone as a fixed reference point)

Thanks for the pic... I kinda like the mecha with a little less robo-dick, but I can see where the height of the hips can affect the dynamic look of the figure in general.

Edited December 12, 2008 by promethuem5

[Dobber]

I too am hoping that the legs in fighter mode are just mistransformed...ie...they are being positioned straight instead of giving them that one last "click" up so that they'll sit up higher. Honestly, I wo't pretend that I've been a fan of this design, BUT, if the legs can be made to sit higher that would be a huge step in the diresction of me posible buying one. Now with all the speculation as to why this looks like that and such...I want to know why the nose cone looks so horrible with that horrible downward slope. If the legs can be positioned better, the nose cone will probably still kill the deal for me. The mega crotch of doom doesn't bother me as much as it does others.

Chris

[badboy00z]

The whole thing would look much better if the hip placement were correct. As of now the torso just looks squat. I don't understand why Bandai would position the legs the way they did just so it would fit the SP. They could've made it flush in normal mode and just lower the legs to add the SP. You don't see Yamato f'ing up the leg placement for the VF-1 just so it can have the SP on.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

but still - the point is that this idealizing of the durability of the 1/55 is a bit just that - an idealization...

It is the most durable valkyrie toy ever made and was more articulated than any G1 Transformer of it's time, as well as many other transforming robot toys. It is honestly a very sturdy toy.

The bandai shoulders make the toy look like movie starscream, which is not good.

I don't see how this toy compares at all to Movie Starscream.

It seems adults are forgetting just how important durability is these days with comments about how they don't care if their Yamatos might fall apart because of how pretty they look.

I think people are just used to having one company to go to for their Macross fix. I'm glad we are getting another company into the fray. Durability is extremely important, if it weren't the majority of the fandom would be content building garage kits or kitbashing their Hasegawas into perfect transformation figures, or buying preassembled versions.

Has it been established yet if the Ozma version has a neck?

We still don't know

Are the Alto and Ozma still being released simultaniously?

Yes

Has Ozma's Super Pack exclusive been announced and if so how much can I expect to pay for it?

No

You know - for all this talk about how durable the chunky monkey is, all I ever found in toy and hobby shops across the USA were BROKEN JETFIRES. Broken backpack hinges mainly.

I live in the states and most of the Jetfires I have seen weren't broken. I've seen exponentially more broken Yamatos, in comparison. Hell some of my Yamatos even broke unintentionally. The durability of the 1/55 is no question, the amount of Jetfires I have seen in person and online can attest to that. As well as the many 1/55s out there that are not broken. No one here complained about durability on the 1/55 when the reissues came out years back, and when the Origin of Valkyrie versions came out earlier this year.

And yamatos don't fall apart because of how they look, they fall apart because someone chooses crap plastics to used in high stress areas.

Yes, someone working for the company.

Not saying this is absolutely the case with Yamato products but - sometimes a hardline approach to aesthetics can lead to over-complexity which in turn raises the possibilty of QC issues or unforseen problems - particularly when it comes to mass-produced products.

Reminds me of the time Toynami decided to base their MPC Alpha on the 1/48 Aoshima Legioss plamo.

Mine didn't. The only problems I had with G1 Prime were that the gun handle was easy to break, and the shoulder joints could loosen over time to the point that the arms could not hold their position if raised.

So all this talk about it being based off of unpublished sketches or that it's impossible to be accurate and durable... it's just speculation.

Yeah it is also called benefit of the doubt.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

You don't see Yamato f'ing up the leg placement for the VF-1 just so it can have the SP on.

We don't even know if it was a design decision on Kawamori's part or if it is to leave room for the armor.

[Tober]

We still don't know

Yes

No

Thanks