Macross Frontier Criticism

[boota]

Yeah... that part where some dude remarked that Alto posed prettily even in Battroid mode caused huge sums of shivers for me... maybe lead characters are supposed to be a bit stereotypical for a reason... this kinda like reminded me... when you're convinced that Superman is more pretty that Lois Lane something's wrong already.

[Gubaba]

Frontier is the Gundam Wing of Macross sequels.

That's impossible, because I hated Gundam Wing but I love Frontier.

[MisaForever]

<rant> Gundam stinks </rant>

[bandit29]

A few criticisms but overall I liked Macross Frontier. Not the greatest anime ever but more enjoyable than Macross 7 ever was.

The animation is inconsistent. This happens in all anime TV series but Macross Frontier can go from great to cringe-worthy all in one episode.

Characters. Too many. Which leads to lack of development. Which then leads to me not caring about them one way or the other. Some are bit anime generic/cliche.

The 14-17 year olds going to school by day and flying mechs by night is a bit silly and tired.

And finally. Drop the love triangle stuff. I know this is the anniversary show..but come on..enough already.

[Sulendil Ang]

And finally. Drop the love triangle stuff. I know this is the anniversary show..but come on..enough already.

Not possible. After all, the love triangle is one of the three parts that make a Macross show. Not going to see this theme gone anytime soon.

Frontier is the Gundam Wing of Macross sequels.

Since I do like Gundam Wing, I take it as another awesome, positive review of Macross Frontier.

My own take on Macross F? Well, not really the greatest anime ever, although it's what I called good. Nice mecha design, good songs, and some nice tribute to the SDF Macross. Story is not as strong, but I'm personally have no issue with how Kawamori handle the love triangle. Overall, it's another title that worth the name of Macross.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Sulendil Ang

[mr.chogokin]

I can stomach the love triangle in Frontier. It ain't so bad in M7. It was beautifully done in SDF & DYRL. The biggest WTF?! love triangle is Macross Plus.

[d3v]

The 14-17 year olds going to school by day and flying mechs by night is a bit silly and tired.

Well it seems to be the trend nowadays and Frontier seemed originally slated to be Macross/Kawamori's take on this sub-genre.

And finally. Drop the love triangle stuff. I know this is the anniversary show..but come on..enough already.

Blasphemy, without the love triangle, all we'd get would be Gundam with variable fighters.

I can stomach the love triangle in Frontier. It ain't so bad in M7. It was beautifully done in SDF & DYRL. The biggest WTF?! love triangle is Macross Plus.

As convoluted as the triangle in Plus was, at least there were hints of a previous relationship as well as continued attraction between Isamu and Myung. The iffiest ones IMO are in II, where it Sylvie and Hibiki should have been given more time to develop as a couple and in Macross 7 where Basara should have been less... asexual.

Edited October 21, 2008 by d3v

[Final Vegeta]

The 14-17 year olds going to school by day and flying mechs by night is a bit silly and tired.

Oh come on, piloting a variable fighter is a tough job but someone has to do it

FV

[Shaka_Z]

Oh come on, piloting a variable fighter is a tough job but someone has to do it

FV

it aint no job for wet-behind-the-ears 14-17 year olds. 20-40 somethings yes. the only time I can suspend my disbelief for kid pilots is under unusual circumstances - like souseke sagara in FMP, who was literally fighting and killing in war zones since he was old enough to hold a rifle... setsuna in gundam 00 fits that mold as well. those characters however pay for that capability dearly in that they are little more than shells who really dont know anything else. Souseke at least had enormous opportunity for character growth thru his interactions with his comrades and especially kaname. she enabled him to become more than the mindless automaton he had been made into. setsuna in 00 never was able to really break free from that mindset.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Xeros]

Wow, 2 days out and I have to read so much... xD

First of all, IMHO I want to say that compare a Gundam show whith Macross is to make a lame favor to the last, because Macross regardless the fanservice and etc, has managed to be faithful to his principles, thing that even Evangelion has lost in his new version.

With that in mind, lets face it. Macross it is not a show intended for western audiences (you could put the guilt in HG here), so SK & Co have here the excuse they need in order to avoid the "standard of 21st century anime" that need lots of sensless action and ties all the loose end to satisfy the western audiences.

Another thing that I consider foolish to argue is the "age" of the pilots. Geez, now we have boys of 12-14 years carrying guns, that's the REAL world so where is the problem with boys flying variable fighters in 50 years

[Radd]

Heck, in the States we send kids only a year older than Alto around the world in tanks and jet fighters to shoot and be shot at in the real world. That's in our relatively peaceful era. In Macross, 2059, humanity is probably spread thin across the galaxy, they apparently teach the older highschool age kids things like piloting, and considering how quickly they pump out colony fleets, with millions of civilians and who knows how many in military escort it's really not surprising. In relatively recent years the idea of age at when one becomes an "adult" seems to have remained on the rise, getting knocked back a notch only in times of wars large enough to reduce much of the adult population.

Also, to put things in perspective, both Hikaru and Max in SDF:M were younger than Alto.

[Killer Robot]

Also, to put things in perspective, both Hikaru and Max in SDF:M were younger than Alto.

Younger than Alto and complaining about those green pilots that transferred on when they got to Earth.

Then you have 7, where the pilot from the fleet's most elite squadron is 18 and the 14 year old drives a sports car, lives on her own, and becomes a pilot under more unusual circumstances. Relatedly, Milia comments that young people of the current generation are marrying earlier.

Plus? Okay, so you have two older and seasoned pilots duking it out. Even in that exception, remember the YF-19's chief engineer was an obnoxious sixteen year old.

So you come to Frontier with some still in the academy 16-17 year olds doing private military contracting. Do note that they're junior pilots, and the first two encountered are assigned to somewhat indirect combat roles in the form of sniping and drone-based recon: in theory, stuff that keeps you out of easy range. They're still in the academy, and this is odd enough that others comment on it. Why? I'm not sure. It might be that career advancement in more respectable military/civil piloting fields is much easier once you have your degree even with experience: real world careers can often be that way. By late series at least the greener NUNS pilots seem to be of similar age, though it's hard to know how much of this was due to needing warm bodies to fill cockpits as the war grew more desperate.

Going to the big picture, the human race has been in a varying state of war, repopulation, and galactic expansion for the last 60 years. It's the sort of society where a lot of kids get pushed out the door young. I can see gripes about the high school scenes in particular, but complaining about sixteen year olds with careers, as fighter pilots or otherwise, is not complaining about Macross Frontier, but rather Macross as a franchise.

[Beltane70]

I think you're a little off there, Radd. I don't think that there are any 18 year-olds piloting any jet fighters in today's US armed forces.

[aerocombatpilot]

I think you're a little off there, Radd. I don't think that there are any 18 year-olds piloting any jet fighters in today's US armed forces.

That's true, I believe most US fighter pilots are in their late 20's early 30's before they solo in jet fighters.

[Radd]

I'm exaggerating a bit, sure. At 18 they can join the military, which means they can begin learning to pilot jets and drive tanks and whatnot. At 18 they can still be on the ground, rifle in hand. And, again, we've been living in relative peace since World War 2 ended, there hasn't been a military draft in my lifetime.

[Einherjar]

These too were examples of some Robotech fans I encountered. They were disturbing, but not really on the level of discussing Macross. In fact, I dare say that Macross/Robotech wasn't really the issue with these fans at all, even if they didn't know it themselves. If I could make an analogy, I'd say they were like encountering a real, dyed-in-the-wool racist. The kind that hopes the next Denzel Washington or Will Smith movie will fail so they can keep on hating blacks. The hatred itself comes from something much deeper. It may just be something as pointless as hating a Macross fan who really pissed them off and they've been shouldering a grudge for decades. Whatever it is, the hatred has taken on a life of it's own for these fans.

But I have to reiterate, these types of Robotech fans, while certainly loud and obnoxious beyond their importance/influence, were rare. Most Robotech fans I encountered left me with nothing but memories of fun discussions about how much we all enjoyed Macross Frontier. Being a die hard Macross fan, the largely positive reaction was doubly surprising to me, since I was expecting far worse. An unexpected but welcome surprise.

I agree, that's the part of the fandom that really troubled me. It's ironic, because as well as being harsh about Macross Frontier, those two apparently hate each other as well. For the love of Robotech, go figure.

I previously associated these guys with the part of the fandom that approved the pieing and other acts against Tommy Yune and the current leadership. Is that crowd actually big?

[Mr March]

I agree, that's the part of the fandom that really troubled me. It's ironic, because as well as being harsh about Macross Frontier, those two apparently hate each other as well. For the love of Robotech, go figure.

I previously associated these guys with the part of the fandom that approved the pieing and other acts against Tommy Yune and the current leadership. Is that crowd actually big?

I have no idea. Like I said, I was pleasantly surprised most Robotech fans I encountered were positive about Macross Frontier, eager to discuss it and motivated to enjoy it with other Robotech fans, Macross fans or otherwise. The RPG site I joined was actually quite proactive at disciplining the trouble makers, so the few bad apples were smacked down most efficiently allowing fan discussion to proceed unhindered. We had a great time with Frontier.

[dreamweaver13]

Also, to put things in perspective, both Hikaru and Max in SDF:M were younger than Alto.

Younger than Alto and complaining about those green pilots that transferred on when they got to Earth.

Going to the big picture, the human race has been in a varying state of war, repopulation, and galactic expansion for the last 60 years. It's the sort of society where a lot of kids get pushed out the door young. I can see gripes about the high school scenes in particular, but complaining about sixteen year olds with careers, as fighter pilots or otherwise, is not complaining about Macross Frontier, but rather Macross as a franchise.

This got me thinking... why all the sudden hate against young student pilots? is it because they hate the idea in itself? or is it because the idea has simply become overused at this point?

backtrack to 1984. Or whatever year you watched SDFM. hikaru was young. he may have been a student before the war, we don't know for sure. max was young as well. but i didn't hear any complaints then about putting them in the cockpit of a top-of-the-line valkyrie. whether or not hikaru and max (arguably the best 2 pilots of their time) were in school or not, they were definitely too young for warfare, regardless of the circumstances.

during the couse of anime in the 90s and 2000s, we've had evangelion, gundam wing, and other countless series where we've seen kids even younger pilot their respective mechas. and yes, some of them were students, still in uniform, forced to be the savior of mankind. In Evangelion, it was a plot device (only 14yos can pilot evas). In most animes after, it was a marketing tool to capture the evangelion crowd.

Then fast forward to 2008 where we see Alto, Michael and Luca fighting to save the human race against the Vajra. i think the reaction is against them is more of fatigue against the recent trend of youth saving the earth's ass, rather than us being actually adverse to the idea of the young 'uns saving the day.

if that's the case, is it Macross' fault that some people may have gotten tired of this "cliche"? i don't think so. they did it in SDFM, and they merely did it again in MF. I wouldn't blame the Macross franchise for all that happened in the anime industry between SDFM and MF.

[polidread]

but the concept of young ones operating giant robots/mechs have been around since Gigantor...

(& Mazinger had Koji Kabuto, Gundam had Amuro Ray - all teens in robots )

"student pilots" have been a mecha series staple since forever.

so i dont know what the beef is.

Edited October 22, 2008 by polidread

[dreamweaver13]

but the concept of young ones operating giant robots/mechs have been around since Gigantor...

(& Mazinger had Koji Kabuto, Gundam had Amuro Ray - all teens in robots )

"student pilots" have been a mecha series staple since forever.

so i dont know what the beef is.

precisely. anime pilots have almost always been young. besides, who gives a flying frack about old geezers in army uniforms anyway. we saw it in macross 7, and it wasn't nice. hehe:p

i think their gripe is that it has reached some kind of "boiling point", but I don't really see it.

Edited October 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Morpheus]

Well, MF got all the cliche for 21st anime standard IMO: teenager piloting mecha, moe character, loli character, maids, giant panty, monster, ghost, high school romance, shower scene, etc. I think most people are annoyed with MF since Kawamori decided to have a harem ending.

I don't know whether the harem ending is just a trick by SK so MF can continue its story to solve the triangle or not. But as long there are story to be told and funding is available, the anime can keep on airing (just like Naruto or that stupid card game anime).

[mr.chogokin]

Personally, I've got nothing against young pilots. But last I recall, typical pilots don't have that much fashion fluff to them... Why can't they just look as though they're taking their jobs as pilots seriously? It is a job with a huge responsibility.

Alto - He seem to require a complete session of beauty maintenance regime before take off. Don't matter if he'll miss the battle or not. They did the right thing in SDF and DRYL. They had the right look for their pilots in M+, then we get crap like those in M7.

It's not really an age issue. It's not even that they aren't out of school yet, although I would appreciate that their schooling is mentioned more than it's shown. It's the fluff or unnecessary extras that spoil it for me.

[Gubaba]

This got me thinking... why all the sudden hate against young student pilots? is it because they hate the idea in itself? or is it because the idea has simply become overused at this point?

backtrack to 1984. Or whatever year you watched SDFM. hikaru was young. he may have been a student before the war, we don't know for sure. max was young as well. but i didn't hear any complaints then about putting them in the cockpit of a top-of-the-line valkyrie. whether or not hikaru and max (arguably the best 2 pilots of their time) were in school or not, they were definitely too young for warfare, regardless of the circumstances.

during the couse of anime in the 90s and 2000s, we've had evangelion, gundam wing, and other countless series where we've seen kids even younger pilot their respective mechas. and yes, some of them were students, still in uniform, forced to be the savior of mankind. In Evangelion, it was a plot device (only 14yos can pilot evas). In most animes after, it was a marketing tool to capture the evangelion crowd.

Then fast forward to 2008 where we see Alto, Michael and Luca fighting to save the human race against the Vajra. i think the reaction is against them is more of fatigue against the recent trend of youth saving the earth's ass, rather than us being actually adverse to the idea of the young 'uns saving the day.

if that's the case, is it Macross' fault that some people may have gotten tired of this "cliche"? i don't think so. they did it in SDFM, and they merely did it again in MF. I wouldn't blame the Macross franchise for all that happened in the anime industry between SDFM and MF.

My theory on it is perhaps a little unfair...I just assumed that the majority of of people here got into SDFM when they were thirteen or younger, so the idea of a sixteen-year-old piloting a robot seemed, well, perfectly reasonable. Now those same people are in their thirties, and the idea seems a little more ludicrous.

I also think that a lot of people like to project themselves onto the main character, which is a little bit easier if that character is the same age as the viewer.

Of course, this is all just speculation on my part...

[polidread]

well, i did feel the episode where Sheryl chased Ai-Kun for taking her panties was rather too much highschool slapstick but it did build up nicely towards the sunset scene on top of the VF-1j.

but taking it in context of the entire season it screamed FILLER EPISODE

must be it...?

[Morpheus]

well, i did feel the episode where Sheryl chased Ai-Kun for taking her panties was rather too much highschool slapstick but it did build up nicely towards the sunset scene on top of the VF-1j.

but taking it in context of the entire season it screamed FILLER EPISODE

must be it...?

I would called it rating boost episode or fan-service episode with Sheryl panty flying all over Mihoshi.

[dreamweaver13]

well, i did feel the episode where Sheryl chased Ai-Kun for taking her panties was rather too much highschool slapstick but it did build up nicely towards the sunset scene on top of the VF-1j.

but taking it in context of the entire season it screamed FILLER EPISODE

must be it...?

i wonder...if you scratch out ep8, would we still have complaints about how MF overdid its high school drama stuff? i agree it's a filler, and as a filler, it went ALL OUT in cramming all the supposed cliches of high school anime into that one episode. outside of ep 8, i don't think there was much left in the other episodes, was there?

but all in all, i loved ep 8. I had a blast watching it.

I would called it rating boost episode or fan-service episode with Sheryl panty flying all over Mihoshi.

is it still the highest rating ep of MF in japan, even up to ep25?

Edited October 22, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

My theory on it is perhaps a little unfair...I just assumed that the majority of of people here got into SDFM when they were thirteen or younger, so the idea of a sixteen-year-old piloting a robot seemed, well, perfectly reasonable. Now those same people are in their thirties, and the idea seems a little more ludicrous.

I also think that a lot of people like to project themselves onto the main character, which is a little bit easier if that character is the same age as the viewer.

Of course, this is all just speculation on my part...

it's a very valid theory, and i would even dare say that it's right more often than not. remember the old people's saying "youth is wasted on the young"? hence, the same applies: "All those cool mechas are wasted on the young, goddammit!"

but not for me, at least. i have absolutely no qualms about the young ones still piloting the mechas. and as far as projection goes, hey i may not be young anymore, but who's to stop me from projecting myself on a hot-blooded teenager with similarly hotblooded teenage women going after him?? i say bring it on!

[d3v]

Well, during SW1, they needed pilots ASAP so they basically allowed anyone who wanted to be one to be trained. As the years went on, space combat meant that pilots and valks were almost as common as infantry, which meant that the practice of having younger pilots continued.

[Shaka_Z]

My theory on it is perhaps a little unfair...I just assumed that the majority of of people here got into SDFM when they were thirteen or younger, so the idea of a sixteen-year-old piloting a robot seemed, well, perfectly reasonable. Now those same people are in their thirties, and the idea seems a little more ludicrous.

I also think that a lot of people like to project themselves onto the main character, which is a little bit easier if that character is the same age as the viewer.

Of course, this is all just speculation on my part...

this is certainly a part of my own issues with having teenage pilots. when I first got into anime back in the late '70s, I was what... 8 or 9 years old? by the time robotech debuted here I was 13, and yes it did seem perfectly fine (indeed it made perfect sense to my young mind) that the best pilots are the youngest pilots, and geezers should sit back, watch from the sidelines and coach or better yet just stay out of the way.

As I got older, I realized the flaws of that reasoning - while teenagers do have quicker reactions than their elders, they think with their genitals too much, and so are prone to utter stupidity (which is fine for cannon fodder infantry, but not for pilots of very expensive aircraft). this makes their use as pilots not so much ludicrous, but unrealistic. it's one thing if you are in desperate need of pilots, and all you really have are high-schoolers as in SDFM - the macross needed pilots BAD early on, so they tapped the one resource they had... perfectly reasonable and realistic. luckily the Macross had a very high quality pool of candidates to work with, Max & Hikaru being the ones that set the standard. those 2 were certainly not your average teenagers.

at least in the Macross universe the veteran pilots still get their due acknowledgement. Focker was 29 at the start of SDFM, both Isamu and Guld were in their mid-20's, Max was still kicking butt in macross7 in his early 50's. dont know Ozma's age, but hes probably around 30 himself.

In all though, I think my reservations about teenie boppers saving the world are that the plot device has been sorely overused... and I am somewhat tired of it right along with the whole dominance of moe. doesnt stop me from enjoying the series though.

[Shaka_Z]

Wow, 2 days out and I have to read so much... xD

First of all, IMHO I want to say that compare a Gundam show whith Macross is to make a lame favor to the last, because Macross regardless the fanservice and etc, has managed to be faithful to his principles, thing that even Evangelion has lost in his new version.

I am not comparing shows - I am comparing specific character archetypes using specific examples for reference.

With that in mind, lets face it. Macross it is not a show intended for western audiences (you could put the guilt in HG here), so SK & Co have here the excuse they need in order to avoid the "standard of 21st century anime" that need lots of sensless action and ties all the loose end to satisfy the western audiences.

you want senseless action, look to gundam... I agree. I also have no issue with frontier not tying up the loose ends - there has to be some mystery left in the series to maintain fan interest in the franchise as a whole.

Another thing that I consider foolish to argue is the "age" of the pilots. Geez, now we have boys of 12-14 years carrying guns, that's the REAL world so where is the problem with boys flying variable fighters in 50 years

infantry weapons have been carried into battle by kids for millenia - it isnt something that just started happening in the last hundred years. matter of fact it was expected for a teenager to be married and having a family of their own as little as 100 years ago. you must admit however that infantry weapons are not and have never been representative of a high level of economic investment (on a per soldier basis) in comparison to a jet fighter or any historical equivalent (which can be extrapolated back to the first uses of horses in combat, but might be better analogized to horse-drawn chariots). in general unless you expect the kid to die - and dont mind losing the plane - you dont stick a kid into a fighter cockpit

Edited October 22, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Mr March]

I like 'em young

[bandit29]

My theory on it is perhaps a little unfair...I just assumed that the majority of of people here got into SDFM when they were thirteen or younger, so the idea of a sixteen-year-old piloting a robot seemed, well, perfectly reasonable. Now those same people are in their thirties, and the idea seems a little more ludicrous.

That makes sense. I have to keep reminding myself when I watch Macross Frontier that I'm not the target demographic. Ya old fool.

I was about 7 or so when I first started watching anime. About 10-11 when I first saw Robotech. So teenage pilots made sense. They don't anymore lol but..

My criticism of the teen pilot concept has to do more with the lack of originality than the actual concept itself. I can deal with the silly concept. Same goes for Kawamori's tried & true love triangle.. He used this in Escaflowne too. Any other anime?

The Japanese in general ,whether it be in anime or videogames, have hit a wall when it comes to creativity lately. Alot of their product is just shovelware. Not that the West is much better mind you.

[Shaka_Z]

The Japanese in general ,whether it be in anime or videogames, have hit a wall when it comes to creativity lately. Alot of their product is just shovelware. Not that the West is much better mind you.

I think this can be said for most areas of human endeavour of late. just about every industry there is is more concerned about how to better package existing products and concepts than actually creating anything new. nobody wants to take any risks anymore.

I blame the lawyers and accountants. politicians too, but then 99.9% of them are either lawyers or accountants.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Killer Robot]

Nostalgia plays funny tricks on your head that way: the shovelware of decades past is easily forgotten, and all the gems from a period of several years stack together so it's easy to misremember them as being all simultaneous awesomeness. It's like comparing a classic rock station playlist with the playlist of a new rock station in August, 1982 or whenever. Combine that with not being so young and easily impressed any more, and it becomes an easy mistake to make. The 80s and 90s were horrific pits of derivative and uncreative anime and video games: just to have a frame of reference today you need to watch some of the forgettable trash rather than the few classics that have survived or were fun when you last saw them as a ten year old.

[Max Jenius]

I got criticism of it (most already discussed by others) but there are a lot of rabid fans that think it is the best thing since slice bread. I could write at length about how it is only good because it is new, just caters to fans and has a weak story. I don't feel like being that negative right now. People enjoyed it so I'll let them have there fun.

Said before. Got jumped. Don't feel like debating opinion.

It's ok. I actually like 7 a little more because they took more chances.