Macross Frontier Criticism

[Shaka_Z]

here here... down with the moe!

I cannot fully express how tired I am of 14-17 year olds being allowed to fly giant war machines! yes I blame evangelion for the start of this trend, although that series did it for very well thought out reasons that were integral to the plot. personally I think SK would have been better served by setting the series in a collegiate environment - make Mihoshi an MIT/Rensselaer/Embry-Riddle type campus instead of some kind of magnet high school. that way, at least Alto & co would have been old enough - with sufficient educational background - to be believable. Sheryl & Ranka could stay at their respective ages, though perhaps giving them a boost of a year or 2 would be beneficial as well.

dont get me wrong... I have no issues with fanservice - or even loli to an extent. in the case of loli I strongly feel that human laws are seeking to trump biology, when just a hundred years ago one was considered to be a fully fledged adult member of society by the age of 18 if not sooner, lawyers and politicians (who are 99.9% lawyers) have twisted things so badly in western society that in some cases you arent an adult until you're 30 or more (I am deliberately exaggerating for effect here, but I occasionally still get carded when buying booze, and I'm almost 40).

Edited October 20, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Killer Robot]

Man, you must DESPISE my new avatar...

That's one of those things I didn't mind too much. It wasn't so bizarre and was an isolated incident. If Sheryl had gone perving on Nanase on a regular basis rather than messing with her head the once, or if she'd spent her time doing that to micronized Klan, I might have found it more offputting.

As for Evangelion, I don't love it like I once did, and I still feel it had some negative effects too, but it was a very fresh and very influential take and I have to respect that, and the description of it being a much-needed shot in the arm to the genre was certainly apt. It was for mecha shows what The Matrix was for action movies: not as deep or complex as its biggest fans would help you believe, and spawning of many bad imitators, but still a real game-changing work and a great source of excitement to audiences. It also is relevant to Frontier criticism: the way that it changed how mecha shows are presented shows clearly in Frontier and differentiates it from SDFM and Macross 7 alike. Mostly a positive way, I think, bringing new tropes and more complex flavors to the franshise. Even if this does lead to people complaining Sheryl is just like Asuka or other such Evangelion comparisons I can't quite agree with.

[wolfx]

here here... down with the moe!

I cannot fully express how tired I am of 14-17 year olds being allowed to fly giant war machines! yes I blame evangelion for the start of this trend, although that series did it for very well thought out reasons that were integral to the plot. personally I think SK would have been better served by setting the series in a collegiate environment - make Mihoshi an MIT/Rensselaer/Embry-Riddle type campus instead of some kind of magnet high school. that way, at least Alto & co would have been old enough - with sufficient educational background - to be believable. Sheryl & Ranka could stay at their respective ages, though perhaps giving them a boost of a year or 2 would be beneficial as well.

*Cough* Gundam *Cough* SDF Macross. It wasn't Evangelion that started the trend....they just continued the trend. It has all the while been about 14-17 yr olds piloting giant mecha.

And it would seem Kawamori had a different idea at the beginning since he setup Alto /Ranka/Sheryl to become schoolmates. He even promised a School Romance Story in the universe of Macross. That did not materialise at all.

dont get me wrong... I have no issues with fanservice - or even loli to an extent. in the case of loli I strongly feel that human laws are seeking to trump biology, when just a hundred years ago one was considered to be a fully fledged adult member of society by the age of 18 if not sooner, lawyers and politicians (who are 99.9% lawyers) have twisted things so badly in western society that in some cases you arent an adult until you're 30 or more (I am deliberately exaggerating for effect here, but I occasionally still get carded when buying booze, and I'm almost 40).

I have the same idea as you about the current pedophile scares. But i'm very surprised hearing this from a western person (assumingly you are).

[Anon]

*Cough* Gundam *Cough* SDF Macross. It wasn't Evangelion that started the trend....they just continued the trend. It has all the while been about 14-17 yr olds piloting giant mecha.

Lets go back further... Gigantor/Tetsujin 28. Hell, that's where the term shotacon came from...

[Morpheus]

I like Frontier since it make homage to the original Macross series without a flaw. Although the main character is very dense, it better than have him saying "I'm ally of Justice" or "I'm a Valkyrie" . Mechanical design is quite good, but the CG needs more work (but still awesome for a TV series). My only criticism is the animation quality which is differ for each episode (since they have like 3 Studio animating it), lots of recycled scene and they never explained what the hell is the cause of fold fault.

Macross is also know to blend mecha action with music and romance and this triangle whats makes a Macross animation a Macross.

[Dangard Ace]

For those that read Japanese, this is the first really negative review I found when the series had just started. Even at the time I thought it was a little too harsh, though. It is a blog written shortly after the fourth episode. Criticisms include the VF-25's "old" design, which has had no consideration of stealth, and the way the characters act as if it was some old-school anime, with stupid comedy moments like when Ranka hits her head on the microphone. Overall, aside from the action scenes, it is not up to the standard of 21st century anime.

http://gecko3.seesaa.net/article/94848989.html

Not at Renato but at those bloggers.

Standard of 21st century anime? What would that be, the endlessly huge harems, the "I discovered I've got magic powers and now must save the world while being angsty or emo?" Not enough androgynous characters that they can use to ship? Amateur hour psychobabble twist ending? Gotta catch/collect them all pets/card type shows?

Sometime you need an "old school" manly show with manly action. I stopped watching anime because their 21st century anime standard bored me to death. It's only because of Gundam 00, Macross Frontier and Gurren Lagaan that I've actually found myself enjoying anime again.

[Gubaba]

Not at Renato but at those bloggers.

Standard of 21st century anime? What would that be, the endlessly huge harems, the "I discovered I've got magic powers and now must save the world while being angsty or emo?" Not enough androgynous characters that they can use to ship? Amateur hour psychobabble twist ending? Gotta catch/collect them all pets/card type shows?

Sometime you need an "old school" manly show with manly action. I stopped watching anime because their 21st century anime standard bored me to death. It's only because of Gundam 00, Macross Frontier and Gurren Lagaan that I've actually found myself enjoying anime again.

Y'know, I think it was Renato some time ago that brought up a Japanese magazine (that had an interview with Itano) that called Gundam a "manly" anime while Macross is a "boyish" one...which (as I believe Renato pointed out) is simply ludicrous.

That said, we all know that there's only one TRULY manly anime out there: "Grave of the Fireflies."

But yeah, glancing at the article (didn't have the patience to lug out my kanji dictionary and actually READ the damn thing0, I wondered what they meant by 21st Century standards. The Macross world FINALLY has cell phones...isn't that 21st Century enough?

[d3v]

For those that read Japanese, this is the first really negative review I found when the series had just started. Even at the time I thought it was a little too harsh, though. It is a blog written shortly after the fourth episode. Criticisms include the VF-25's "old" design, which has had no consideration of stealth, and the way the characters act as if it was some old-school anime, with stupid comedy moments like when Ranka hits her head on the microphone. Overall, aside from the action scenes, it is not up to the standard of 21st century anime.

http://gecko3.seesaa.net/article/94848989.html

Actually, I believe that's the reason why some of us enjoyed Frontier - for me in fact, it's the first anime I've really followed in some time (before that, I was in an I don't really like modern anime phase).

[Dangard Ace]

That said, we all know that there's only one TRULY manly anime out there: "Grave of the Fireflies."

Grave of the Fireflies IS manly. During that horrific time the brother does what he can to protect his family....and deals with the consequences for failing. Many manly tears were shed for that movie and if you didn't....well then it must be because of 21st century anime standards. Not enough fruit drop tins.

Actually I haven't watched that movie in awhile. Think I'll pop it in next week when I get a chance.

Actually, I believe that's the reason why some of us enjoyed Frontier - for me in fact, it's the first anime I've really followed in some time (before that, I was in an I don't really like modern anime phase).

+1

[d3v]

Grave of the Fireflies IS manly. During that horrific time the brother does what he can to protect his family....and deals with the consequences for failing. Many manly tears were shed for that movie and if you didn't....well then it must be because of 21st century anime standards. Not enough fruit drop tins.

Actually I haven't watched that movie in awhile. Think I'll pop it in next week when I get a chance.

I remember watching it in a packed hall at school when some club decided to show it. Many manly tears were shed that day.

IMO, probably the only Gundam show that can approach that level of 'manliness' is War in the Pocket.

Off course Macross doesn't really have anything of that sort, but it's not it's genre anyway, Macross has, and always will be a space opera first and foremost. It doesn't have, nor need to pretention of being "manly."

Edited October 20, 2008 by d3v

[Morpheus]

Grave of Fireflies, my friend advised me to bring a bucket when I went to watch it, I still regret not bringing that bucket, it would full of manly tears.

What is the standard of 21st century anime anyway? The way I see it Frontier is the same like any other anime (besides the storytelling).

[d3v]

Grave of Fireflies, my friend advised me to bring a bucket when I went to watch it, I still regret not bringing that bucket, it would full of manly tears.

What is the standard of 21st century anime anyway? The way I see it Frontier is the same like any other anime (besides the storytelling).

Well, from the comments I've read else where, one of the complaints is how Alto didn't become the OMGWTFPWN type of pilot in the end like modern pilots are supposed to be.

[Killer Robot]

Actually, I believe that's the reason why some of us enjoyed Frontier - for me in fact, it's the first anime I've really followed in some time (before that, I was in an I don't really like modern anime phase).

That's entirely where I am, yes. I haven't watched much genuinely new in years, and this brought me back. Admittedly, I was hesitant even then until someone showed me screenshots of the Folmo Mall, then I had to watch at least that far. In the end, I loved it, and went back and watched what I hadn't seen of older Macross, as well as a couple newer things like TTGL on recommendation. If it fit the 21st century standards as some define them, I might not have stuck with it.

I also wonder, did the complaints about it not being up to modern standards include Bilrer's maid only appearing in one scene?

[wolfx]

I must be godly rather than manly to think GOTF was not tear jerking.

I think Saikano and Gunbuster was the only one that made me cry manly tears....and now....possibly Clannad.

[d3v]

I also wonder, did the complaints about it not being up to modern standards include Bilrer's maid only appearing in one scene?

I think the shocking part was that the maid wasn't actually secretly some meltran ninja in disguise.

[mike_s_6]

I remember watching it in a packed hall at school when some club decided to show it. Many manly tears were shed that day.

OT (I don't want to rain on the manly tears parade, but I just want to share my experience) - I didn't shed any tears for Grave of the Fireflies... poverty is something quite common in my country that GOTF didn't look that impoverished, nor heart-rending at all. I made a positive review of this film for a college paper and all my professor commented was, "The developed countries are always the ones making films about suffering from war, aren't they?" I thought, well, because they have to money to do so... I still liked the animation regardless.

[d3v]

OT (I don't want to rain on the manly tears parade, but I just want to share my experience) - I didn't shed any tears for Grave of the Fireflies... poverty is something quite common in my country that GOTF didn't look that impoverished, nor heart-rending at all. I made a positive review of this film for a college paper and all my professor commented was, "The developed countries are always the ones making films about suffering from war, aren't they?" I thought, well, because they have to money to do so... I still liked the animation regardless.

Funny, we're from the same country but I definitely felt the need to shed a few manly tears when watching GOTF.

[RDClip]

Wow, its been a long time since i posted here.

Anyway, i didnt visit this site for the last few months so i guess i watched MacF without any outside influence. While i can see why there would be some flaws in the series to criticize, i think most anime fans can agree that it was at the very least a good series. Granted i've only watched a few new anime, i can say that MacF is the best anime of this year for me (sorry Code Gease, your ending kinda sucked).

And Macross fans should be damn happy just from the impact that this series has made. It brought macross back into view for Anime fans, thus: more toys, merchandise, and the most important thing: possible interest in a new Macross movie/ova/series(hopefully).

P.S. At the very least we can all agree it was better than Macross 7

[Mr March]

P.S. At the very least we can all agree it was better than Macross 7

Everything is

I agree it is nice to have Macross back in the public eye but I'm more pleased at the fact that Frontier has provided a springboard for the Macross Chronicle. It's about time we had a definitive universe guide for this franchise. It's certainly big enough that it demands one.

[DJ_Convoy]

My only real gripe with the show was the pacing. Okay, and maybe the whole school thing seemed out of place and was conveniently forgotten about when the series got more serious. Not a big deal- especially compared to the pacing of certain other Macross shows. I don't think it was too big of an issue... it didn't effect my enjoyment of the show.

[Final Vegeta]

Subjectively, I love Eva. Objectively, it was a much-needed shot in the arm to the TV anime industry. While many may not like the tropes of Eva that became de riguer for mecha shows afterwards (I liked them in Eva, but didn't like them as much in Brain Powerd and Eightron), it was still heaps better than the kiddified world of early-'90s TV anime.

Eeew. Just eeew. I liked it better when the battles were won by the pilot and not by his mother

All of which, of course, has nothing to do with criticism of Frontier...and as for that, pretty much everyone here has been giving voice to shortcomings of the production, which more or less disproves yellowlightman's premise.

So much lip service for a person who evidently never even read Frontier threads

Rabid fan here. Best series in years and years IMO. Leaves everything else standing in the dust.

Finally, someone who reminds us that to be welcomed here you just need to love a Macross series. Or to be an admin

The only minor quibble I have with Frontier was that it didn't really do what the original SDFM series did. That being blowing out of the gate with fresh ideas and concepts that still resonate within the anime scene today after 25 years.

That's for originals only. All further series are bound to the concepts of the original, thus they will never be groundbreaking again. It is the same for Evangelion and Gundam.

FV

[Renato]

P.S. At the very least we can all agree it was better than Macross 7

OBJECTION!!

Yeah, MacF looked better, had better pacing, and perhaps a more intriguing plot, but for me, it's the characters that make the show, and Mac7 made up for that in spades. I never cared one bit about the "problems" facing Alto, Brera, Ranka, Sheryl and everyone else, I just saw them as whiny kids all the way through. Canaria and Ozma should've been the main characters!

[Nexx Stalker]

P.S. At the very least we can all agree it was better than Macross 7

Nope, sorry, I don't agree. Macross F is a nice Macross show/homage and it was a thrill (heck, it's our new Macross!) but it's no way better than 7. In fact 7 is so much better than F (personal opinion, I don't want to make general statements).

I already stated elsewhere that Ranka's Hocus Pocus powers (see especially that part of ep.25 that I usually pretend it doesn't exist) don't seem to trouble many MWorlders' minds as much as Basara's singing, and that's strange .

Indeed.

[yellowlightman]

OBJECTION!!

Yeah, MacF looked better, had better pacing, and perhaps a more intriguing plot, but for me, it's the characters that make the show, and Mac7 made up for that in spades. I never cared one bit about the "problems" facing Alto, Brera, Ranka, Sheryl and everyone else, I just saw them as whiny kids all the way through. Canaria and Ozma should've been the main characters!

Ditto... Macross 7 was far from perfect, but the characters (Basara, mostly) were awesome.

[mr.chogokin]

Character designs in Frontier sucked bad.

The songs in it fared only slightly better, but overall they're epic fail when compared to the songs of other Macross shows.

All the bad points punctuated with ill-timed fanservice is pathetic. It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

The storytelling pace, Kanno scores, alongside with the mechanical & valkyirie designs are the only redeeming points to this weak sequel.

Next time, when if anything else other than valkyrie designs come out of Kawamori's pen and paper, shoot him.

[d3v]

I think it's come to the point where alot of the posts here have to be read with a figurative "IMO" at the beginning.

[dreamweaver13]

Funny, we're from the same country but I definitely felt the need to shed a few manly tears when watching GOTF.

Same here. i'm still hesitant to watch it again coz i know it's gonna hit hard again. it's not so much the poverty that got to me (like Mike said, i see it everyday), but the effect of warfare on two kids, in particular, whose characters were so lovingly developed that by the time the end came, you can't help but feel for them.

But this is OT. back to Macross. Hmmm... i never got the sense that MWers were declaring it the BEST.ANIME.EVER (although i did give it a 10, i give you that). but instead of explaining its faults, i'll just say this: it's not the best, and it's nowhere near perfect, but I LOVE it nevertheless.

[Gubaba]

but instead of explaining its faults, i'll just say this: it's not the best, and it's nowhere near perfect, but I LOVE it nevertheless.

Dude, you explained it perfectly. I'm TOTALLY getting those words tattoooed on my forehead.

[mr.chogokin]

Frontier is the Gundam Wing of Macross sequels.

[polidread]

Frontier is the Gundam Wing of Macross sequels.

it's like the gateway drug for new fans of the entire franchise

it has a lot of prettyboy pilots

it has robots with specialized weapons

that doesnt sound too bad.

[Morpheus]

Frontier is the Gundam Wing of Macross sequels.

Nope, I would say that Macross Frontier is Gundam Seed done in the right way.

Both try to pay homage to their original franchise, Macross Frontier played it near perfect while Seed failed miserably.

Besides, both have Brera Yamato/Kira Sterne as an ace pilot with uber mech.

[d3v]

Frontier is the Gundam Wing of Macross sequels.

Nope, while Alto is a pretty boy, he doesn't wtfpwn everything he comes across. Meanwhile both Mikhail and Luca show interest in the opposite sex.

[mr.chogokin]

You know, I'm sure Kawamori has failed miserably in his attempt to enrich his characters in Frontier. All his other attempts on characterization in the Plus, Zero, and 7 has been quite half-hearted with small successes. It's got worse in Frontier. I'm sad cause Kawamori and Co. did so well at this back in SDF and DYRL. Therefore I shouldn't analyze them too much. I got punk'd cause I had higher expectations. I'll cut my losses at liking just the Valkyiries in Frontier.

[wolfx]

I wonder if Yellowlightman got more than he bargained for in terms of criticisms.

[StrangeWill]

Hikaru Ichijo made up his farting mind, you hear?

That is all the review actually needed.