Macross Frontier Criticism

[yellowlightman]

As far as I've heard, I'm in something of the minority in believing that Frontier isn't, in fact, the greatest anime in recent memory.

I know people have been posting up positive reviews of the series but I'm curious if anyone has seen any negative commentary on the series?

For what's worth, one of the guys (not me) on Colony Drop wrote up his comments on the ending of the series, which are pretty negative: http://www.colonydrop.com/index.php/2008/1...d-the-en?blog=1

[Gubaba]

No, there's been a lot of negative criticism, here and elsewhere. A lot of it is from Robotech fans though, so I think perhaps it gets dismissed more than it would otherwise.

In fact, most of the writing and talking about Frontier that I've heard has said that Frontier is far from perfect, but it's strengths outweigh its weaknesses...which is very different than saying it's "the greatest anime in recent history." The recent episodes of Destroy All Podcasts DX and Duke Togo's review for Ain't It Cool News (and most of the commentary here) are cases in point. But yeah, if you want something that really slams Frontier as boring, unorginal, ugly, and just all-around lame, you'll probably have to check out Treiz on Robotech.com.

[mikeszekely]

As far as I've heard, I'm in something of the minority in believing that Frontier isn't, in fact, the greatest anime in recent memory.

I know people have been posting up positive reviews of the series but I'm curious if anyone has seen any negative commentary on the series?

For what's worth, one of the guys (not me) on Colony Drop wrote up his comments on the ending of the series, which are pretty negative: http://www.colonydrop.com/index.php/2008/1...d-the-en?blog=1

I don't think it's that I don't have anything negative to say. The animation was inconsistent, the earlier parts of the series tended to be action-packed episode followed by talking followed by fanservice. The ending was rushed. Character development was lacking for anyone not either a singer or a member of Skull Squadron. Little details bothered me, too, like how Kawamori tossed his own established canon that the VF-19 was to be the new UN forces main fighter on something of a whim, and how when the VF-27 was introduced the engineers on the Frontier fleet seemed baffled by it, then later there were more VF-27s and it was implied that they'd been in use on the Galaxy fleet. Speaking of Galaxy, why was an entire fleet built around a chemical plant? Why not have a chemical plant ship as part of a regular colony fleet with a Cities or Islands?

Despite its flaws, Macross Frontier was entertaining, the characters that were developed were likable, the mechanical designs were good, it dropped Macross 7's silliness (and I don't mean just Valkyries that shoot speakers... I'm talking about pyramid-shaped ships with "E=MC²" emblazoned on the side" while retaining plenty of nods to the original series, Plus, and 7 (and a whole episode for Zero) for long-time Macross fans to enjoy.

So, Frontier might not be perfect, but I'd say better than average. And the best anime today seems to range from average to craptastic, which leaves Macross Frontier on top even if it doesn't achieve true excellence.

[VFTF1]

Well, believe it or not, I was thinking of starting a similar thread because although I think this is the best anime inthe universe, as with everything, there is room for improvement and stuff to criticize.

But first - I would like to take issue with the critique that you linked to on some points:

1. "Motivation for Evil:" Grace wanted to be able to access the entire galaxy and control everyone through implants/cyber-genetic engineering. Banal? Yes. Simplistic? Yes. Evil? Exactly. Evil is not, as some might like, necessarily sophisticated. Evil is usually mean, low and nasty. The motives for evil people are always pretty much the same. Make it any more complex and the person stops being evil. After all, even good people do bad things - this doesn't make them evil; it just makes them careless, mistaken, warped, or a number of other reasons that might have led them down the wrong road. Evil people, on the other hand, usually consciously yearn for simple power at the expense of others. Blaming Frontier for not establishing a more plausible motivation is kind of lame. What does the reviewer expect? Should Grace have sat down for a long philosophical interview "why I'm evil" ?

2. Moe...this criticism just bores me - it bores me and annoys me. If you watch SDF Macross TV, you will see Minmey in a bikinni, you will see Misa being feminine and helpless, you will see Roy picking up chicks who go gaga over him, you will see Roy and Hikaru looking up skirts, you will see lots of eroticism and sexual allusion - and you will NOT be shocked, because from the perspective of 2009, it all looks so innocent and dated and non-controversial. Take three steps back and try looking at the eroticism in Macross: Frontier from that point of view and suddenly it becomes clear that if anyone is going "oh my god!" over "those scenes" then it demonstrates that the person is just a prude and not that the scenes are somehow worthy of criticism. The story is about a love triangle. It is hard to have a love story without eroticism. That Macross: Frontier plays with sexuality is fine. There is absolutely nothing shocking about it, and making an issue of it is pointless: it's just meant in good fun.

3. Alto also chose - he chose both girls. "You are my wings" he says, grabbing both of them. So this criticism of "Hikaru chose" while Alto didn't is just wrong. They all love eachother. Hikaru loved Misa. Minmey didn't love him; Minmey only loved herself.

4. I completely don't see the point of throwing the "Ozma doesn't die" bit into CRITICISM. I mean - that episode, of all episodes, was a testimony to how brilliantly Frontier managed to communicate on two levels: to the fans, and to the general public. Someone who has never seen Macross before will probably think "boy that Ozma guy is sure a risk taker!" while someone who is familiar with it will appreciate that the writers took the time to toy with his expectations. In any event - this shouldn't be a subject for criticism since it was one of the best plot threads in terms of how it was executed and build up.

5. "Not enough death." This is the implication when noting Micheal's death. Now - I think that this implication is kind of the result of anime deciding to "go there" and allow for realistic portrayal of death in war, as opposed to just having everybody survive while their vehicles keep blowing up or something. Namely - when the death toll is NOT catastrophic, people shout "no way! There are too few deaths!" And Mikheal gets treated like the token death. But if you look at SDF Macross TV - well - how many main characters died? Roy Fokker. How many supporting characters died? Kakizake. THAT'S IT. The rest of the deaths were villains like Kamjin and Lampllitz and hords of civilians and "redshirt" soldiers. So, again, Frontier, where one main character (Mikheal) dies as well as the Meltran pilot (supporting character) doesn't really deviate from the norm here. Now, I personally appreciate that Macross is not Space Runaway Ideon. Having Sheryl, Ranka, Alto or any of the others die would have been pretty pointless and gratuitous. Mikheal's death served its' literary purpose. Also - remember Leon? From episode 1? He died too. Plenty of death. Oh - and last note: I HATE criticisms that boil down to: "This is terrible! Look at all this sex! Where's the death?!" As if mass death as a plot thread is desirable and normal, while erotic romance and a love story that makes you smile is somehow perveted? Um. No.

Hmm... I had a bunch of critical things to say about Frontier - mainly that the ending was rushed - but I'm burned out after writing the above

Pete

[Sumdumgai]

Inconsistent animation, not enough character development for other characters, some things got dropped and were never picked up again (or were picked up with no explanation like the "kadun chaff/flares" that the vajra drop in a couple episodes only).

VFTF1, but we had the status quo maintained in deaths. Main character: Michel died. Supporting characters: Gilliam, Nene, President Glass, the Zentraedi commander and his archivist, and at least one of Alto's Sagittarius squad mates.

Getting into background characters: plenty of cannon fodders, sniper ripped in half, civilians blown into outer space, soldiers smeared by invading vajra, capitol ship crews, and everything in the path of the destruction eater on Gallia IV.

While almost the entire human population wasn't wiped out like in SDF Macross, there were a fair number of deaths in the series.

A lot more could have been done with Frontier, but for what it wound up being it's still damned good. I certainly wouldn't call it the greatest, but it's one of the better shows I've watched (especially when you count all the mediocre shows out there).

[Valkyrie addict]

ouch...tough review on colony drop

I do agree with a couple of thing of his but that's overanalizing an animated TV show that's meant only to entertain you, if you want something to make your mind work, go read a thriller novel or something

anyway! I do agree, Frontier isn't perfect, I've criticized and questioned a few aspect of how some stuff works on Frontier, but it's doesn't derail me from enjoying the show, I actually, don't even like anime, but Frontier is certainly for me, best of what's out there, and there's a lot of crap out there, only two gripes I have with the show ending, Brera, he's good, he's evil, you tryed to killed so many times I lost count, but I don't care, you didn't even APOLOGIZE for being under mind control and trying to kill me... but who cares, right?? that's silly... and the no resolution for a love triangle... if you introduce a love triangle, you must solve it or if you had no intention of solving then make balantly clear that someone in the triangle didn't gave a crap about the other person (like Basara with Mylene in Macross 7), I know this will probably be address in the movie but still... you know

[Roy Focker]

I got criticism of it (most already discussed by others) but there are a lot of rabid fans that think it is the best thing since slice bread. I could write at length about how it is only good because it is new, just craters to fans and has a weak story. I don't feel like being that negative right now. People enjoyed it so I'll let them have there fun.

[Xeros]

No, there's been a lot of negative criticism, here and elsewhere. A lot of it is from Robotech fans though, so I think perhaps it gets dismissed more than it would otherwise.

In fact, most of the writing and talking about Frontier that I've heard has said that Frontier is far from perfect, but it's strengths outweigh its weaknesses...which is very different than saying it's "the greatest anime in recent history." The recent episodes of Destroy All Podcasts DX and Duke Togo's review for Ain't It Cool News (and most of the commentary here) are cases in point. But yeah, if you want something that really slams Frontier as boring, unorginal, ugly, and just all-around lame, you'll probably have to check out Treiz on Robotech.com.

QFT

[Radd]

I don't think the show was perfect, but I did find it highly enjoyable. One thing I found incredibly enjoyable was one thing that a lot of people wound up confused or put off by later on, the slow reveal with the Vajra turning out not to be the villains after all. Some of us called it early on, but others didn't catch on until the very end (it sounds like this guy at Colony Drop never caught that part at all, otherwise he wouldn't have been confused as to why the aliens decided to "chill out or something" after Grace was killed), and when the characters in the show acted on this revelation, it really threw a lot of viewers for a loop.

The talk of the inconsistent animation (which I certainly agree with) and the lack of development of the side characters (which I also agree the show would have benefited a lot from) have been covered a lot, including here in this forum. I do think the story came down to the wire, and could have been better done with maybe another full episode to give more attention to the character aspects of the story resolution. I also did not like the character designs. I really wish Mikimoto had been on board for this one.

I disagree with all complaints about the lack of resolution in the love triangle. In real life, you don't always get that kind of nicely wrapped up emotional resolutions, but in fiction it's rare to not get them. It's one of those things that makes Macross stand out a bit more to me. Sure, sometimes the guy does wind up with his arm around the girl at the end, sometimes not. No Macross, aside from MII) has really resolved the romantic situation in quite the same way as any of the others.

Sometimes I worried that the show would go overboard with the homages, and just wind up being SDF:M/DYRL with new characters, but as the show progressed, I felt it brought enough new to the table that it was able to be a huge send-up to 25 years of Macross, while being it's own thing at the same time.

I did think it was one of the nicer shows I've seen in a while, though admittedly I have not been watching much anime.

[Mr March]

Are you aware what message board you're on? This is MW; of course there's criticism

Seriously, I don't think too many folks are touting Macross Frontier as some kind of SDF Macross, Mobile Suit Gundam, Neon Genesis Evangelion or Ghost In The Shell. As good as the series is, it's not a cultural event nor is it a landmark anime title. But then again, it never made any pretense at being so.

If I could make an analogy, the easiest and most obvious one that comes to my mind is this summer's Iron Man. Like that film, Macross Frontier offers little new beyond surface details and style. It's not innovative in any manner as a story or concept nor is it all that original. But like that super hero flick, Macross Frontier is just plain entertaining. It's exceptional only in the the amount of fun offered for what it is. It's genre entertainment only, it just happens to be a very good and highly entertaining example of genre entertainment which subverts expectations more often than not. The one thing notable about Macross Frontier beyond it's quality as genre entertainment is the extensive high quality CGI work.

I gave the show a solid 8 out of 10 and after absorbing it post-broadcast, that rating is holding steady. Macross Frontier is definitely one of my favorite Macross productions, but it can't beat SDF Macross or Macross Plus (to me, very little can). But it doesn't have to, it just has to be good Macross, which it most certainly is.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Mr March

[Final Vegeta]

Criticism? Wasn't this the thing internet is about? There is always 4chan for that:

Sheryl end: /m/ bitches

Ranka end: /m/ bitches

Altodies end: /m/ bitches

Sky end: /m/ bitches

Basara end: /m/ rejoices, then bitches

FV

[VF-18S Hornet]

No, there's been a lot of negative criticism, here and elsewhere. A lot of it is from Robotech fans though, so I think perhaps it gets dismissed more than it would otherwise.

In fact, most of the writing and talking about Frontier that I've heard has said that Frontier is far from perfect, but it's strengths outweigh its weaknesses...which is very different than saying it's "the greatest anime in recent history." The recent episodes of Destroy All Podcasts DX and Duke Togo's review for Ain't It Cool News (and most of the commentary here) are cases in point. But yeah, if you want something that really slams Frontier as boring, unorginal, ugly, and just all-around lame, you'll probably have to check out Treiz on Robotech.com.

What? Robotech.com is still up?

[Mr March]

On the issue of Robotech fans, I have to say that overall, my experience with Frontier in the Robotech fan circles has been very positive. I joined an RPG site after checking referrals when monitoring the Macross Mecha Manual in it's infancy. I joined the board to answer member questions about my fansite and ended up staying around for a while until eventually Macross Frontier started. When that happened we opened a topic that went on and on.

There has been one or two insanely jealous and ardent Robotech apologists who went after Frontier with a vengeance. And as the series got better and better, it only infuriated them more. But they were definitely the minority; by far, the vast majority of Robotech fans I encountered loved Macross Frontier. There's a huge topic on the board and the response was almost universally positive. Granted, it's not Robotech.com (which I would never join anyway), but I just wanted to comment on the subject and give credit where credit was due.

Also just to add, the Robotech fans who have sent e-mail to me regarding my website have been quite pleasant. Particularly when I explain that the M3 is Macross only and will not feature Mospeada or Southern Cross, they have largely been understanding and appreciative in any case. So it's not all doom and gloom

Edited October 19, 2008 by Mr March

[Einherjar]

But yeah, if you want something that really slams Frontier as boring, unorginal, ugly, and just all-around lame, you'll probably have to check out Treiz on Robotech.com.

Sorry if this is abrupt, just needed to get this off my chest. This is just an observation made over the past year:

Some people on robotech.com and other die-hard fans felt the same way even before the series started to the very end. I dare say they wanted it to fail because it was a Macross series and not part of their universe. Treiz isn't the only one out there. There's dougbendo, who loves Robotech to the point where it has driven him insane. Guess the backlash from The Shadow Chronicles still runs deep in the fandom. If they aren't happy with the direction of their franchise, everyone else can't be either. But then, they're probably satisfied at the likely event that it will never leave Japan and screw with their nostalgia.

But at this point, it's hard to see if they can do better. Call it envy perhaps?

About me:

I became an anime fan (probably a mecha fan too) in the mid 90s and found out about Macross in about 2000. By 2006 I got burned out with the whole genre and stopped watching anime for a while to work on RL stuff. Ironically, I got back into it after downloading, forgetting, and finally watching the Macross Frontier ep.1 Deculture edition in March. Frontier wasn't perfect, but for the first time in a while I actually cared where the plot and characters were going. I'm not one to nitpick if the show is entertaining. Also didn't know about the Robotech fandom until this year, and by now it was probably best for my sanity.

Coming into it with few expectations, the unusually high expectations for the show online surprised me:

-It's anime, animation flaws come with the territory. Remember the knife fight?

-It was [promoted as(?)] the 25th anniversary celebration of the franchise, so expect shout-outs. At least it didn't follow Gundam's model of reinvention year after year.

-And hardcore shippers...

[Mr March]

Some people on robotech.com and other die-hard fans felt the same way even before the series started to the very end. I dare say they wanted it to fail because it was a Macross series and not part of their universe. Treiz isn't the only one out there. There's dougbendo, who loves Robotech to the point where it has driven him insane. Guess the backlash from The Shadow Chronicles still runs deep in the fandom. If they aren't happy with the direction of their franchise, everyone else can't be either. But then, they're probably satisfied at the likely event that it will never leave Japan and screw with their nostalgia.

These too were examples of some Robotech fans I encountered. They were disturbing, but not really on the level of discussing Macross. In fact, I dare say that Macross/Robotech wasn't really the issue with these fans at all, even if they didn't know it themselves. If I could make an analogy, I'd say they were like encountering a real, dyed-in-the-wool racist. The kind that hopes the next Denzel Washington or Will Smith movie will fail so they can keep on hating blacks. The hatred itself comes from something much deeper. It may just be something as pointless as hating a Macross fan who really pissed them off and they've been shouldering a grudge for decades. Whatever it is, the hatred has taken on a life of it's own for these fans.

But I have to reiterate, these types of Robotech fans, while certainly loud and obnoxious beyond their importance/influence, were rare. Most Robotech fans I encountered left me with nothing but memories of fun discussions about how much we all enjoyed Macross Frontier. Being a die hard Macross fan, the largely positive reaction was doubly surprising to me, since I was expecting far worse. An unexpected but welcome surprise.

[Gubaba]

There has been one or two insanely jealous and ardent Robotech apologists who went after Frontier with a vengeance. And as the series got better and better, it only infuriated them more. But they were definitely the minority; by far, the vast majority of Robotech fans I encountered loved Macross Frontier.

I agree...most of them have been very positive and enjoyed the show. But those few wackos are the ones I was referring to. Two good examples:

Some people on robotech.com and other die-hard fans felt the same way even before the series started to the very end. I dare say they wanted it to fail because it was a Macross series and not part of their universe. Treiz isn't the only one out there. There's dougbendo, who loves Robotech to the point where it has driven him insane. Guess the backlash from The Shadow Chronicles still runs deep in the fandom. If they aren't happy with the direction of their franchise, everyone else can't be either. But then, they're probably satisfied at the likely event that it will never leave Japan and screw with their nostalgia.

But at this point, it's hard to see if they can do better. Call it envy perhaps?

Treiz is excessively negative (I can't think of any other person who said "Meh" when Michael was killed), but there were at least a handful of things that he liked. Doug Bendo, on the other hand, is a certified nutjob...I haven't listened to him in a while, and I've never listened to him regularly; has he actually mentioned Frontier at all?

[Gubaba]

These too were examples of some Robotech fans I encountered. They were disturbing, but not really on the level of discussing Macross. In fact, I dare say that Macross/Robotech wasn't really the issue with these fans at all, even if they didn't know it themselves. If I could make an analogy, I'd say they were like encountering a real, dyed-in-the-wool racist. The kind that hopes the next Denzel Washington or Will Smith movie will fail so they can keep on hating blacks. The hatred itself comes from something much deeper. It may just be something as pointless as hating a Macross fan who really pissed them off and they've been shouldering a grudge for decades. Whatever it is, the hatred has taken on a life of it's own for these fans.

To be fair, a lot of us show that same kind of hatred as well. Certainly, I hope that neither Shadow Rising nor the Live-Action Robotech Movie get made.

One could argue that Robotech's continued existance threatens Macross availability more than Macross availability would threaten Robotech, and thus our position has a more reasonable basis, but still...some of us take it too far (myself included).

[Einherjar]

Doug Bendo, on the other hand, is a certified nutjob...I haven't listened to him in a while, and I've never listened to him regularly; has he actually mentioned Frontier at all?

I usually listen just to hear him freak out and/or embarrass himself on the Internet.

IIRC, Doug slammed the first episode of Frontier because of the Messiah, the EX-Gears and because they used tanks instead of Destroids. Then, he skipped 20+ episodes and slammed a random episode because of the singing affecting the Vajra. Heck, when he did an interview with Tom Bateman he called him out when Tom said Macross Frontier was good.

Oh, and now the Robotech Masters can beat the ENTIRE U.N. Spacy forces of Macross II. In fact, they would last the equivalent of 1 to 6 episodes at the most of the Southern Cross arc.

[Killer Robot]

I'm in the camp of loving Frontier, but still wishing some things were better. Even there though, I have to admit that it's not like the earlier TV series were much better on most of my criticisms, and sometimes worse.

1. Inconsistent animation: This one struck me a lot: shifting models, strange viewing angles, the occasional motion that just looked like spastic flailing around. Partly this came out of different studios being used, and it's not like this wasn't striking in SDFM. Still, I could have hoped for better.

2. Pacing: Some episodes, even with valuable character development, felt like filler, and others felt simply rushed. The ending certainly could have used more time. On the other hand, the climactic battles for all three have been really plowed through, and this was the shortest series of the three and never really went more than an episode without things rolling along. By contrast, 7 spent the first third of its run not really developing both plot and characters at glacial speeds before things really started happening, and the last episode was as muddled and rushed as anything.

3. The triangle's end: At first I was dissatisfied: it seemed like a kludge at best, another trick played on the audience at worst. But the more I consider it, the more it makes sense to me, wheras I still find Macross 7's resolution to be dissatisfying on that front.

4. Sexin' up: I can't really complain on some level of sex/innuendo/cheesecake/etc. It's not like it's new to the genre or the franchise: even on TV, SDFM had its share though it was milder stuff to suit its era, and 7 had less but was aimed for the youngest audience of the three. I do wish that it had been less of a lolicon slant: it's not as extreme as some things, and I know much of this has been done to death, but it's striking. Mylene was young, but I think it's telling that Mylene was 14 and cast in a movie as a 16 year old, and Ranka was 16 and cast in a movie as an 11 year old. And that's to say nothing of Klan: I feel the focus on her enormous-breasted giantess/loudmouthed little loli elements distracted from exploring her other dichotomy of a Zentraedi that's proud of being born into human culture, yet also of her traditional role as soldier. I could have done with several fewer suggestive shots at dramatic moments, for that matter, like so pointedly focusing on the T&A angles when Klan did her EVA-style launch in Island 1. Still, this was stuff I could live with: early in the show I feared it might collapse into another sexed up fanservice show, but the trend fortunately did not build further.

5. Hero mechs: One thing that impressed me greatly in SDFM was having the aces and the grunts go out there in the same plane, with minor differences like head design and paint job being there mostly just to show who the heroes are: if someone did better, it was from being a better pilot alone. Of course, every installment in the franchise since has focused very much on aces keeping to advanced prototypes and upgunned custom models, so this isn't a flaw of Frontier. If anything, this dialed it down a bit by putting out a whole squadron of VF-25s complete with cannon fodder models, putting the two really customized models in the hands of junior pilots and used for more support than front line fighting, and making the VF-27 a primarily antagonistic fighter.

6. Villainy: You mean the giant space bugs are our friends? It was a gradual build showing that there was more shady stuff happening on Frontier than Vajra attacks, even if the pacing of it seemed sometimes jagged. A lot of people got that the Vajra weren't the true enemy as the series progressed, but making them not necessarily an enemy at all felt very rushed for many/most, compared to the speed at which it was shown that the Zentraedi and Protodeviln weren't necessarily evil or impossible to make peace with in theory. Still, for once the aliens were actually alien, and it followed up from the late lesson of SDFM that the real danger isn't just more Zentraedi fleets and Protoculture remnants, but rather the warlike and controlling natures within humans and Zentraedi alike. And I was pleasantly pleased to see a major, and vicious, villain who didn't telegraph it on her first appearance.

[Mr March]

To be fair, a lot of us show that same kind of hatred as well. Certainly, I hope that neither Shadow Rising nor the Live-Action Robotech Movie get made.

I'm really comfortably ambivalent either way. I'll never pay for anything Robotech (much like Metallica), but I really don't care if it's made or not. All I care about is Macross.

As for Shadow Chronicles, I can confidently say with total honesty that show has much more serious problems than any kind of predisposed hatred the entire Macross community could ever hope to generate. IMO, there is so much to criticize in Shadow Chronicles, being a Macross fan is really quite irrelevant

[Gubaba]

As for Shadow Chronicles, I can confidently say with total honesty that show has much more serious problems than any kind of predisposed hatred the entire Macross community could ever hope to generate. IMO, there is so much to criticize in Shadow Chronicles, being a Macross fan is really quite irrelevant

:lol:

[Homer Simpson Voice]It's funny 'cause it's true.[/Voice]

[Valkyrie addict]

I never cared about shadow chronicles, at first I was curious about how will they continue the Robotech franchise, but read a few reviews here on MW and didn't felt it was worth it... casually, a few days ago I catched a clip of Shadow Chronicles on an anime TV clip show and that thing was so horrible I just had to swtich the channel, my god it was awful awful...

on the subject of criticism... is Evangeleon really that good?? I saw the OVA's... then saw the remake last episode whatever with a more glorious finale for the chick in red and sorta explanation of the ending only being left with that 'i feel sick' comment by the chick... and seriously... the plot is interesting but left a lot to be desired and the ending is so messed up, kinda like those movies where you are taken for a 2 hour mindfart and in the end you realized it was all a dream... like.... why did I went trough all this hassle?? is that it?!?! seriously... is evangeleon that good?? it's good mecha porn but... c'mon!

[Gubaba]

on the subject of criticism... is Evangeleon really that good?? I saw the OVA's... then saw the remake last episode whatever with a more glorious finale for the chick in red and sorta explanation of the ending only being left with that 'i feel sick' comment by the chick... and seriously... the plot is interesting but left a lot to be desired and the ending is so messed up, kinda like those movies where you are taken for a 2 hour mindfart and in the end you realized it was all a dream... like.... why did I went trough all this hassle?? is that it?!?! seriously... is evangeleon that good?? it's good mecha porn but... c'mon!

Yes. Yes, it REALLY IS that good.

Subjectively, I love Eva. Objectively, it was a much-needed shot in the arm to the TV anime industry. While many may not like the tropes of Eva that became de riguer for mecha shows afterwards (I liked them in Eva, but didn't like them as much in Brain Powerd and Eightron), it was still heaps better than the kiddified world of early-'90s TV anime.

All of which, of course, has nothing to do with criticism of Frontier...and as for that, pretty much everyone here has been giving voice to shortcomings of the production, which more or less disproves yellowlightman's premise.

[Save]

For the most part I loved Macross Frontier, but I had 3 years of Akihabara culture fused into my brain by the time Macross Frontier aired. Yellowlightman is a true 2nd gen US anime fan, and we pretty much like all the same stuff from the 90's, but man I love me some Frontier. Is it flawless, ................. HELL NO! If it wasn't done in the current Otaku culture frontier wouldn't have been picked up by Bandai and it would have just ended up being another OAV that would have been strapped together over a span of a few years. For the past 4 years 90% of people I've talked to either don't remember any other prior Macross series or they may barely remember the Valks and they usually follow up with "I watched Gundam". Frontier has opened the door to a new generation of die hard fans, if it was done any other way non-Japanese fans would still be waiting for the first Volume of a OVA to be released.

Frontier has been in the works since 2006 and at that time there were only two companies in line to support it. A Toy company and a Model kit company, I think you can guess which two I'm referring to. Bandai didn't sign on until way late, once seeing the early cuts of the Deculture Edition they were sold. Other companies were approached prior to Bandai and non were even interested. If you asked me it worked out for the best, and at least BW will have tons of money to through at the next Macorss project once the Frontier movies are done with because by then Japan will be done with Moe.

If I was still living in the US when MF came out I think I would have a diffrent opionon. I remember when I saw the characters from Macross Plus for the first time I swore off Plus because they were not Mikimoto. I went on about how it wasn't Macross and I hated all the pointy noses, then after watching it was the story and not how it looks that makes it Macross.

If it wasn't for Frontier Bandai sure as hell would be considering making a 1/100 VF-2SS toy now would they.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Save

[Renato]

For those that read Japanese, this is the first really negative review I found when the series had just started. Even at the time I thought it was a little too harsh, though. It is a blog written shortly after the fourth episode. Criticisms include the VF-25's "old" design, which has had no consideration of stealth, and the way the characters act as if it was some old-school anime, with stupid comedy moments like when Ranka hits her head on the microphone. Overall, aside from the action scenes, it is not up to the standard of 21st century anime.

http://gecko3.seesaa.net/article/94848989.html

[Renato]

2. Moe...this criticism just bores me - it bores me and annoys me. If you watch SDF Macross TV, you will see Minmey in a bikinni, you will see Misa being feminine and helpless, you will see Roy picking up chicks who go gaga over him, you will see Roy and Hikaru looking up skirts, you will see lots of eroticism and sexual allusion - and you will NOT be shocked, because from the perspective of 2009, it all looks so innocent and dated and non-controversial. Take three steps back and try looking at the eroticism in Macross: Frontier from that point of view and suddenly it becomes clear that if anyone is going "oh my god!" over "those scenes" then it demonstrates that the person is just a prude and not that the scenes are somehow worthy of criticism. The story is about a love triangle. It is hard to have a love story without eroticism. That Macross: Frontier plays with sexuality is fine. There is absolutely nothing shocking about it, and making an issue of it is pointless: it's just meant in good fun.

Eroticism and moe are two completely different things, though. Besides, we never saw Misa or Claudia fondling their breasts, and any nudity is few and far between in the original show. I just find the constant breast fetishes really off-putting, and it becomes a barrier for when I want to recommend the series to others. Even Zero had nudity, but it was not crude like in Frontier.

[Graham]

Rabid fan here. Best series in years and years IMO. Leaves everything else standing in the dust.

Graham

[aerocombatpilot]

Eroticism and moe are two completely different things, though. Besides, we never saw Misa or Claudia fondling their breasts, and any nudity is few and far between in the original show. I just find the constant breast fetishes really off-putting, and it becomes a barrier for when I want to recommend the series to others. Even Zero had nudity, but it was not crude like in Frontier.

I think that has to do with the character design and the times we live in. I know this is beating a dead horse (again), but

take a look at the original Macross character designs. Mikimoto did not design those characters with the "large breast fetish"

in mind and it shows; yet I think they are the best designed characters in the entire Macross universe. The Macross Frontier characters were designed with this obsession in mind and it shows. Although Kawamori did not design them, I've got to believe that he felt it would help the show attract a "younger" audience? Or possibly those dirty old men among us ? Whichever is the case, large breasts are becoming a staple of anime; just look at Dragonaut, it will put your eyes out man!!

Edited October 20, 2008 by aerocombatpilot

[Strumvogel]

The only minor quibble I have with Frontier was that it didn't really do what the original SDFM series did. That being blowing out of the gate with fresh ideas and concepts that still resonate within the anime scene today after 25 years.

It's rather conventional in other words but thats fine as, wow, it's still quite a show for what it is.

If for nothing else, personally this series has allowed me to live out one of my dreams of being in Japan for a Macross series when it started airing.

Yeah, I have no life... Want to fight me for it?

Subjectively, I love Eva. Objectively, it was a much-needed shot in the arm to the TV anime industry. While many may not like the tropes of Eva that became de riguer for mecha shows afterwards (I liked them in Eva, but didn't like them as much in Brain Powerd and Eightron), it was still heaps better than the kiddified world of early-'90s TV anime.

Eva was also special in that it did exactly what the original SDFM series did I mentioned before above. Unfortunately it's runaway success has meant that other people thought that they now have concepts they could cut and paste from into their own show if they wanted the same success. Too bad they didn't figure out that in Eva's case it was more of an exception rather than the rule due to the talented team they had working on it. That and a slightly unbalanced director.

[d3v]

My biggest criticism of Frontier would be that it spends a little too much time playing with and subverting tropes, time which could've been used to help explain the story more and not make the ending feel a bit rushed.

Also, as much as I like her, I wonder if the way Sheryl just about became the Macross version of the Fonz (creators and fans liked her so much they expanded her role) hurt a few others in the character development department?

[Gubaba]

Eroticism and moe are two completely different things, though. Besides, we never saw Misa or Claudia fondling their breasts, and any nudity is few and far between in the original show. I just find the constant breast fetishes really off-putting, and it becomes a barrier for when I want to recommend the series to others. Even Zero had nudity, but it was not crude like in Frontier.

Man, you must DESPISE my new avatar...

[taksraven]

As far as I've heard, I'm in something of the minority in believing that Frontier isn't, in fact, the greatest anime in recent memory.

I know people have been posting up positive reviews of the series but I'm curious if anyone has seen any negative commentary on the series?

For what's worth, one of the guys (not me) on Colony Drop wrote up his comments on the ending of the series, which are pretty negative: http://www.colonydrop.com/index.php/2008/1...d-the-en?blog=1

Is there any negative criticism, you have GOT to be kidding me. This series has drawn more than its fair share of criticism for a huge number of reasons, ranging from negative comparisons to other Macross series to the fact that in one episode Ranka was drawn badly for a couple of seconds.

If you frequent these forums enough you should know all about it.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Yes. Yes, it REALLY IS that good.

Quite agree. Evangelion was one of the best of its decade, if not THE best.

Taksraven

[wolfx]

I think Ginrai's podcast has all the negative vs positive points pat down, with only the "western anime fan-mentality" aspects that i don't agree with. (anti loli, anti fanservice etc)

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...&hl=podcast

Macross Frontier is definately NOT the best anime out there especially so when current standards for anime story-telling are so high. I was abit disappointed that the production had so much more potential which was not utilised. I think someone revealed in the NEWS thread that even Kawamori himself isn't sure on how the story and ultimately, the characters related to the love triagle will advance in the story. He had freaking writer's block mid series and handed the directing reins to another person. The series did seem to suffer from that as mid series episodes did feel abit out of place and lacked direction and impact to the overall story. That said Colony Drop's review does hold some water.

[Funkenstein]

MF had great action sequences and music. The problem is with the story. For the most part, its pretty shallow. Its obvious it was made for Macross fanboys, with itty bitty details to remind people. Though some character progression was shoe-horned near the last arch of episodes, for the most part Alto's character was totally bungled. He came out the same as he went in. That is a very big thematic error on Kawamori's behalf. He could have done something interesting with his character, but he didnt.