Valk Designs

[RedWolf]

Note that despite the design similarities between the VF-1 and VF-0.

The VF-0 is bigger. Which explains why the VF-25 was used as mock in Frontier episode 10.

They are around the same size.

[ChronoReverse]

Fair enough I stand corrected, however I still stand by my assertion that a crafty opponent could easily disable the Valk during that phase of the transformation by simply firing at the hydraulics as the legs drop into place.

IF one were able to hit said "hydraulics" during transformation, it wouldn't really matter whether the valkyrie was transforming or not. It's clear that the weaponry of the day easily tears chunks out of even the ECA and it takes the specially hardened projectile shields and/or PPBs to take hits.

[anime52k8]

Something else to consider in valkyrie design is sensors. Now I realize that in battroid mode the head contains the sensors, radar, EO/IR etc... but those units, especially the radar are probably no where near as powerful as the nose radar. Now look at your valks, only has its nose radar pointing forward in battroid mode, the YF/VF-19, all the others have it pointed down, or in the case of the SV-51 and the VF-25/27 back up into the fighter. To me this seems like a bad idea, now I realize that Battroids are primarily meant for close in combat so that radar is not as important, but still, doesn't it make sense not to just toss away your most power sensor when in battroid mode?

the actual sensor portion of the radar is on a gimble in the VF-1, so it's possible that it get's pivited upward so that it points forward in batroid mode

on later valks, the radar is either not shown or isn't shown with enough detail to determine if it can or can't angle that much, but it's possible that most of them do that.

as for the SV-51, maybe it does have radar in the head (which is why the head is pointy). since the top of the head points backward in fighter mode it has forward and backwards radar coverage. and when the things in battroid mode, the nose radar points backwards covering the back

[Mr March]

It appears anime52k8 is right. I went over the Tanaka Kiyomi cross sections and it does appear that the VF-1 Valkyrie's main radar array is on a gimbal inside the nose. What's more, the GERWALK and Battroid cross section drawings show the radar array does indeed pivot.

I've attached to this post all the Kiyomi cross section diagrams of the nose as well as the internal VF-1J Battroid sketch from Macross Perfect Memory.

[Morpheus]

That's pretty interesting, (restraining myself from telling pron jokes about it...)

[Mr March]

That's pretty interesting, (restraining myself from telling pron jokes about it...)

"Well you actually have excellent bone structure. I'm kinda having a hard time not looking at you now. Is that weird?"

Edited October 10, 2008 by Mr March

[Knight26]

But, does the radar have the range of motion to pivot up 90 degrees? I have worked with old school aircraft radar like the type the VF-1's is based on and guess what they all droop like that when turned off and they all pivot side to side, prior to newer phased array radars they had to in order to scan the whole sky ahead of them.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I just thought of something: Everyone always says that VF-0s would eat WAY too much fuel while in its non-fighter modes, since it uses conventional fueled turbines. They compare it to the AV-8 Harrier, which eats more fuel in VTOL than in conventional flight. This is a bad thing to compare it to for one reason: Overtechnology. It's pretty obvious. The technology that, when studied, led to the development of cheap, easy-to-manufactue giant robot planes, could result in more fuel efficient jet turbines, no? It makes sense... Sorry if that's off-topic. Just had to bring it up.

[sketchley]

*cough* radar array in the head *cough*

[ChronoReverse]

I just thought of something: Everyone always says that VF-0s would eat WAY too much fuel while in its non-fighter modes, since it uses conventional fueled turbines. They compare it to the AV-8 Harrier, which eats more fuel in VTOL than in conventional flight. This is a bad thing to compare it to for one reason: Overtechnology. It's pretty obvious. The technology that, when studied, led to the development of cheap, easy-to-manufactue giant robot planes, could result in more fuel efficient jet turbines, no? It makes sense... Sorry if that's off-topic. Just had to bring it up.

Actually even with Overtechnology it's still the same. When you're flying, the surfaces provide lift as well. If you're hovering, all lift is provided by thrust. Even if your OT engines were super efficient, hovering would still use more fuel.

In any case, the VF-0 used conventional engines tuned up to extreme levels.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Yeah, but my point is that even though they would eat more fuel, they wouldn't eat all of it in a few seconds, as is suggested by some speculationists. The VF-0 used conventional turbofans, which have been made MUCH more efficient anyway, due to the magic of O-tech, that were tuned to maximum output. It was still, nowhere near that of the VF-1, which used the first TRTs.

Radar in the head unit! We get it! (But not in the VF-1 and 0. They couldn't have had it. Just doesn't work that way.)

So, if the DYRL? Transformation Control is to be taken as canon (all the rest of Macross did), how do you choose between GERWALK and Battroid? It's the same flick of the throttle, right? I liked the SDFM one better, simply because it was simple. (If DYRL?'s a movie within the Macross mythos, how come more of it is taken as canon later on than the series?)

[azrael]

So, if the DYRL? Transformation Control is to be taken as canon (all the rest of Macross did), how do you choose between GERWALK and Battroid?

Bless that Newbie Thread:

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?show...st&p=609745

[RedWolf]

One Valkyrie I've noticed whose design follows function is the VA-3M Invader which an amphibius mode.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, but my point is that even though they would eat more fuel, they wouldn't eat all of it in a few seconds, as is suggested by some speculationists. The VF-0 used conventional turbofans, which have been made MUCH more efficient anyway, due to the magic of O-tech, that were tuned to maximum output.

And? I don't think anyone suggested that the VF-0 drains its fuel in seconds while hovering since it clearly doesn't.

[d3v]

One Valkyrie I've noticed whose design follows function is the VA-3M Invader which an amphibius mode.

I wouldn't really call the Invader following function as that valk was designed based on the A-6 Intruder.

[akt_m]

Isn't the reason more toys = more money?

[SchizophrenicMC]

And? I don't think anyone suggested that the VF-0 drains its fuel in seconds while hovering since it clearly doesn't.

It's mostly the YouTubers. They say that it wouldn't be able to, due to conventional turbines being too inefficient for the fuel supply to last that long. No, they're not MW people, but they do seem to care about the subject. (We MWs kinda obsess over the subject, knowwhatImean?)

So, how exactly does the VF-27 interface with its pilot?

[Sumdumgai]

So, how exactly does the VF-27 interface with its pilot?

Futuristic wi-fi and cybernetic implants? I'm actually serious that it's a wireless connection, since we see Brera controlling it from outside of the cockpit.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Futuristic wi-fi and cybernetic implants? I'm actually serious that it's a wireless connection, since we see Brera controlling it from outside of the cockpit.

What about Ranka? She was all in the holographic-y cockpit (It doesn't actually look like that. It's some LSD tripped up effect portrayed in your Brian by the cockpit systems, via cybernetci implants) and she's not at all machine! Kawamori's gonna have trouble explaining this one...

[Sumdumgai]

It could be that we were seeing the cockpit the way that Brera perceived it, as opposed to the way Ranka perceived it. It could also be holographic technology like you're saying schizophrenicMC.

I was addressing how the pilot interfaces in my last post, without concern for how any non-cyborgs would interface or perceive things.

[Noyhauser]

Actually the VF-0 was designed as a test bed for the VF-1 systems, not to combat the AUN Army. It was pressed into combat service when the SV-51 was revealed by the AUN.

One could explain the rather plain look of the VF-1 to production concessions. The designers may have wanted to use the better VF-0 wing types, but budgets and the need for a quick production turnover may have prevented several "better" design elements to be included.

They needed transformable fighters and they needed them fast, as an imminent alien threat was expected at anytime. The VF-0 was a corvette, while the VF-1 was a chevelle. One expensive and advanced, while the other was a basic production line vehicle built to do a job in large numbers. The same type of vehicle, just not the same level of tech.

I think its part of that, but let me introduce a caveat. I'd assume that the VF-1 actually would cost more than the VF-0 (or very close to), because it uses a thermonuclear engine versus a tuned conventional one. While the VF-0 might have other bells and whistles that were not added to a VF-1, it was likely because the VF-1 was already an very expensive fighter to begin with.

By the way, the VF-1's head Carries a radar array of its own (in the forehead of the S version) which I assume is included on other models.

[TehPW]

The VF-1 probably had the most inefficient transformation system AFTER the VF-9!

The VF-1 required the engines to separate from the fuselage to complete the transformation process. Eventhough it was momentary, it was an incredible vulnerability that could easily be exploited by a crafty enemy. Even the Zero used swing bars...

*hits the Retcon button several dozen times*

pretty sure if Macross was edited or recreated for modern audiances, the transformation method of the VF-0 would be used for the VF-1 as well.

why? because the newer method is better, more believable and still cannon. line-art is fine but it's the toys that sells a TV show and since most VF-1's made by the PTB, use the swing method. anything else is anime magic...

wait... whut?

[TehPW]

I wouldn't really call the Invader following function as that valk was designed based on the A-6 Intruder.

in my mind's eye, during the first attack in DYRL, i see VF-1's and VA-3's in flight, to the toon of Def Leppard's Rocket

i see the Invader as a contenporariy of the Valkyrie, just like Intruders and Tomcats... plus i just like how 'Bomb-truck-ish' the VA-3 is. it's the Y-wing fighter of Macross....

[d3v]

It's mostly the YouTubers. They say that it wouldn't be able to, due to conventional turbines being too inefficient for the fuel supply to last that long. No, they're not MW people, but they do seem to care about the subject. (We MWs kinda obsess over the subject, knowwhatImean?)

So, how exactly does the VF-27 interface with its pilot?

Actually, you can clearly see that Brera it still holding on to a traditional stick and throttle even in the holo/cyber/wtf cockpit.

As for the remote piloting, that seems to be something common to both YF-24 derived fighters, although it does seem that the one for the VF27 has possibly greater range (VF25's seem to require line of sight).

[anime52k8]

What about Ranka? She was all in the holographic-y cockpit (It doesn't actually look like that. It's some LSD tripped up effect portrayed in your Brian by the cockpit systems, via cybernetci implants) and she's not at all machine! Kawamori's gonna have trouble explaining this one...

the thing is ranka never actualy PILOTS the 27, just sits in it.

I'm inclined to believe that the 27 uses a form of BCS like on the YF-21, only working directly off cybernetic implants rather than through the helmet. but rather than using a BDI, they went with holographic projection (the BDI was the part that produced all the nasty side effects)

[d3v]

the thing is ranka never actualy PILOTS the 27, just sits in it.

I'm inclined to believe that the 27 uses a form of BCS like on the YF-21, only working directly off cybernetic implants rather than through the helmet. but rather than using a BDI, they went with holographic projection (the BDI was the part that produced all the nasty side effects)

But Brera is clearly shown using a standard sidestick HOTAS setup. The only time he pilots the 27 using implants is when he sorties it by remote in episode 20 and even then, it seems he only uses the remote to get it to where he is so that he can pilot it.

[anime52k8]

But Brera is clearly shown using a standard sidestick HOTAS setup. The only time he pilots the 27 using implants is when he sorties it by remote in episode 20 and even then, it seems he only uses the remote to get it to where he is so that he can pilot it.

well, the shots of the cockpit with the holographic image are so short that we can't say for sure if he's actually manipulating the controls.

then again, when grace if flying a 27, she's shown standing there in her normal clothing, in a sort of cyber space world thingy. so who knows.

[SchizophrenicMC]

well, the shots of the cockpit with the holographic image are so short that we can't say for sure if he's actually manipulating the controls.

then again, when grace if flying a 27, she's shown standing there in her normal clothing, in a sort of cyber space world thingy. so who knows.

That's my point. I can see conventional controls as the control system, but it's not the entire interface. The other part is plane-to-pilot. How does the whole crazy cockpit thing work? If it's some sort of Cybernetic implant thing, why can Ranka see it? And it looks to be similar to the screens on the flooring and side walls of the YF-19. Does it serve that purpose? It's just confusing. I think out-of-universe, it's just to look cool. In-universe, I dunno...

(Though, you can see his arms resting on the side consoles, with his hands raise somewhat. I would assume that those are the joystick and throttle.)

I think you can safely say that it's not on a BCS or using a BDI. Instead, it uses conventional controls with some sort of acid-trip display system. Its controls can be slaved to something else, similar to the VF-25/Ex-gear SCS. That explanation works for me. If only I could get my hands on a real one, and reverse-engineer it... THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!

[Sumdumgai]

Actually it probably has BCS and BDI, otherwise Brera wouldn't be able to remote pilot it to himself from a great distance. Like the YF-21 it probably has conventional controls as well, should the BCS and BDI fail, in which case it has the cockpit set up with screens like the YF-19 for a truly enveloping view of the battlefield. Probably not so great to fall back on should something happen to the BCS and BDI, but better than a simple canopy and HUD view.

[azrael]

Actually it probably has BCS and BDI, otherwise Brera wouldn't be able to remote pilot it to himself from a great distance. Like the YF-21 it probably has conventional controls as well, should the BCS and BDI fail, in which case it has the cockpit set up with screens like the YF-19 for a truly enveloping view of the battlefield. Probably not so great to fall back on should something happen to the BCS and BDI, but better than a simple canopy and HUD view.

Brera and Grace are cyborgs, so I'm not sure it could be even considered BDI/BCS anymore. Think more like the cyber brains from Ghost in the Shell.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Brera and Grace are cyborgs, so I'm not sure it could be even considered BDI/BCS anymore. Think more like the cyber brains from Ghost in the Shell.

I agree. BDI is outdated at this point, considering that more and more fleets are accepting cybernetic implantation. Galaxy is the perfect example, as most of its residents had cybernetic implants of some sort. (I can't remember about Sheryl, but... Is she even from Galaxy? I thought she was born on the 117th Research Fleet... Or maybe I'm mixing stuff up.) Look at the Ex-gear. It can slave control a VF-25 completely separate from it. (Most likely through a pre-programmed link between armor and plane, though it can be manually linked to another, as we see in MF 7, when he slaves Luca's RVF-25F.) It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that, using software based on the BDI and BCS systems, Brera, or any cyborg pilot, can slave the controls of his plane directly to his cybernetic brain, possibly from long range.

The VFs in Frontier remind me of those in Zero. For one, the VF-0 is similar to the VF-1, which the VF-25 is similar to. Therefore the VF-0 is similar to the VF-25. The VF-27 bears a great resemblance to the SV-51. Not just in paint scheme, but transformation and wing design. (Thruster colors are also the same between the respective Valks.)

(Who agrees with me: VF-27(Brera)=SV-51(Nora)?)

[Sumdumgai]

I was saying BCS and BDI, because even with cyber brains, it's still their thoughts that are being sent as commands and they are still receiving and interpreting images, whether it be with an organic brain, a brain with cybernetic implants, or if it's a ghost in the shell.

The VF-25 also bears a great resemblance to the SV-51 as it's got the same transformation system as the VF-27 with a difference in the wings and feet. I definitely agree that Brera's VF-27 really conjures the image of Nora's SV-51.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I was saying BCS and BDI, because even with cyber brains, it's still their thoughts that are being sent as commands and they are still receiving and interpreting images, whether it be with an organic brain, a brain with cybernetic implants, or if it's a ghost in the shell.

The VF-25 also bears a great resemblance to the SV-51 as it's got the same transformation system as the VF-27 with a difference in the wings and feet. I definitely agree that Brera's VF-27 really conjures the image of Nora's SV-51.

If ever a VF-27 model was made, I'd paint on Nora's scheme, myself! XD

Eh... Somewhat what I was saying there. It uses a system based on the BCS and BDI systems. BDI is kinda iffy here, since Ranka apparently can see the effects. BCS seems to have been worked on, allowing it to be slave controlled from outside, rather than requiring a physical link to the plane, as BCS needed. (Funny how Guld's International Version voice actor went on to play Batou, eh? (He also played Ben (Kenobizaki) Dixon of Rowboat tech.)

[anime52k8]

I agree. BDI is outdated at this point, considering that more and more fleets are accepting cybernetic implantation. Galaxy is the perfect example, as most of its residents had cybernetic implants of some sort. (I can't remember about Sheryl, but... Is she even from Galaxy? I thought she was born on the 117th Research Fleet... Or maybe I'm mixing stuff up.) Look at the Ex-gear. It can slave control a VF-25 completely separate from it. (Most likely through a pre-programmed link between armor and plane, though it can be manually linked to another, as we see in MF 7, when he slaves Luca's RVF-25F.) It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that, using software based on the BDI and BCS systems, Brera, or any cyborg pilot, can slave the controls of his plane directly to his cybernetic brain, possibly from long range.

I wouldn't say that cybernetic implants are becoming common place. Just because galaxy had lots of them doesn't mean everyone else is doing it. Galaxy is supposed to be a corporate sponsored fleet that's on the bleeding edge of technology, acting like an R&D think tank for it's corporate backers.

if anything the way things are on frontier (where cybernetics are banned) is more likely to be the norm.

also we have know idea where sheryl was born; her grandmother Mao was on the 117th, but her mother wasn't necessarily there as well (though I have a feeling she was at least on that fleet at one time.)

in any event she spent most of here life on Galaxy, though she explisitly states (I think in Star date) that she has no modifications or implants.

as for whether or not what what they use can be considered BCS; I think it is to the extent that it's a brain control system. he controls the operation of the fighter with his thoughts. the difference being instead of useing a special hemet that picks up his thoughts then transmits them over wires into the aircraft (like on the YF-21)

he has implants in his skull that pick up on brain activity (replacing the helmet itself) and send his thoughts to a wireless modem in his body that transmits to the aircraft (the same wireless modem is what lets him communicate with grace in cyberspace.)

The VFs in Frontier remind me of those in Zero. For one, the VF-0 is similar to the VF-1, which the VF-25 is similar to. Therefore the VF-0 is similar to the VF-25. The VF-27 bears a great resemblance to the SV-51. Not just in paint scheme, but transformation and wing design. (Thruster colors are also the same between the respective Valks.)

(Who agrees with me: VF-27(Brera)=SV-51(Nora)?)

The VF-25 also bears a great resemblance to the SV-51 as it's got the same transformation system as the VF-27 with a difference in the wings and feet. I definitely agree that Brera's VF-27 really conjures the image of Nora's SV-51.

once again the VF-27/VF-25/YF-24 DO NOT transform like the SV-51. if anything it transforms like the YF-19.

the only real similarity in terms of actual transformation is that both planes have the nose cone fold under into the front gear bays.

everything else is purely cosmetic. the feet, the Forward swept canards, the purple color and the way the wings appear to lay in battroid mode are the only real similarities, and it's not like the VF-27 and the SV-51 are the only things that have those. (well the purple color maybe.)

and the wings aren't really all that similar. they don't actually fold the same way, and they have completely different shapes. i think it's mostly the engines pods in the wings of the 27 which look the the boosters on the SV-51 that most people are drawing the similarities from.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I wouldn't say that cybernetic implants are becoming common place. Just because galaxy had lots of them doesn't mean everyone else is doing it. Galaxy is supposed to be a corporate sponsored fleet that's on the bleeding edge of technology, acting like an R&D think tank for it's corporate backers.

if anything the way things are on frontier (where cybernetics are banned) is more likely to be the norm.

also we have know idea where sheryl was born; her grandmother Mao was on the 117th, but her mother wasn't necessarily there as well (though I have a feeling she was at least on that fleet at one time.)

in any event she spent most of here life on Galaxy, though she explisitly states (I think in Star date) that she has no modifications or implants.

as for whether or not what what they use can be considered BCS; I think it is to the extent that it's a brain control system. he controls the operation of the fighter with his thoughts. the difference being instead of useing a special hemet that picks up his thoughts then transmits them over wires into the aircraft (like on the YF-21)

he has implants in his skull that pick up on brain activity (replacing the helmet itself) and send his thoughts to a wireless modem in his body that transmits to the aircraft (the same wireless modem is what lets him communicate with grace in cyberspace.)

once again the VF-27/VF-25/YF-24 DO NOT transform like the SV-51. if anything it transforms like the YF-19.

the only real similarity in terms of actual transformation is that both planes have the nose cone fold under into the front gear bays.

everything else is purely cosmetic. the feet, the Forward swept canards, the purple color and the way the wings appear to lay in battroid mode are the only real similarities, and it's not like the VF-27 and the SV-51 are the only things that have those. (well the purple color maybe.)

and the wings aren't really all that similar. they don't actually fold the same way, and they have completely different shapes. i think it's mostly the engines pods in the wings of the 27 which look the the boosters on the SV-51 that most people are drawing the similarities from.

There's like 3 dubs, though, so I may have gotten my info confused...

Galaxy was on the Frontier (Get it?)of technology, but I'm pretty sure that a 20 year old (or older) military technology would be a tiny bit old-hat, dontcha think? (In 2040, the YF-21 was tested using the BDI and BCS. They both required a neural implant. This means that by 2059, the implants would be 20 years old, at the least.) I don't think most of the other fleets have banned implants, it's just Galaxy encourages them.

We have nothing to go by for the YF-24 except its FIGHTER-ONLY schematic. It's out, off the bat.

However, the VF-25 and 27 don't transform at all like the VF-19. The Nose cone, for one, is facing directly down, instead of outward. Secondly, the torso folds in the same way as the SV-51. I can give you the wings, but even then, the 27 has fixed wings, unlike the VF-19. (Only later revisions had the fixed wing. Before that, they had VGWings.) Also, the wings fold up onto the back, not the legs. Look at the attached photos.

We agree, more or less, on the BCS. It's different, though similar.