Valk Designs

[anime52k8]

So, this thread is dead, I take it?

it was until you dug it up...

[SchizophrenicMC]

I am a gravedigger, you see. Whatever I can find to pawn for Valk money, you know.

[kanedaestes]

Wooooo,, let's keep my thread alive. Yes I am a dork.

[SchizophrenicMC]

^

|

Needs to participate

[anime52k8]

can we stop bumping this thread unless we have a valid discussion of some kind?

how about this... lets talk Attack valks.

so far in macross we've seen all of 4 dedicated attack valks. the VA-3, the VA-6 (which is really more of heavy gun platform), VA-14 and the VAB-2

of these only the VA-3 is a full family of valks. the VA-6 is for all we know has only 1 variant, and the VA-14 and VAB-2 are barely referenced in passing and have no form of information associated with them.

has the need for land attack capability really decreased that much, or can the existing fighter types really handle the close air support and ground/heavy attack roles.

Edited December 28, 2008 by anime52k8

[VF5SS]

There's the VB-3000 variant.

[anime52k8]

There's the VB-3000 variant.

oh yeah... thats kind of in the same lot as the VA-14 though. it's a variant of a fighter thats never actually used in anything. and nothing but a couple of sketches exist for it.

Edited December 28, 2008 by anime52k8

[SchizophrenicMC]

Er, the Koenig Monster's not a VA, it's a VB, which puts it one higher.

I like the VB-6, but none of the Variable Attackers. Why?

Guns

Bombs

Missiles

It doesn't go Columbia, no matter how hard you hit it.

[anime52k8]

Er, the Koenig Monster's not a VA, it's a VB, which puts it one higher.

I like the VB-6, but none of the Variable Attackers. Why?

Guns

Bombs

Missiles

It doesn't go Columbia, no matter how hard you hit it.

I have no idea what you mean.

and I like the VA-3, it's got such a cool design.

[SchizophrenicMC]

VA-3s are cool, but they follow that sickly marine design that the whaling variant VF-1s had in 7 that I didn't like at all...

I have no idea what you mean when you say you have no idea what I mean.

[transfan52]

I've been giving some thought as to why there are always recon valks like the RVF-25 or VE-1 ELINT seeker... Youd think that by then there would be no need for a recon vessel since the targeting systems on the vf-1 and vf-25 models is so much more advanced... Also since very little heat signatures are emitted in cold space how would a valks missle system seek out enemy targets? is that the prupose of the recon vessels?

Another thing... the way the vf-25 makes sharp and fast turns in outer space where there is a vacuum and no air resistance seems inconceivable atm since no such technology exists to move a craft in space that fast and suddenly... I'm assuming that the vf-25 somehow manipulates a small gravitational field around the vehicle to push it in different directions if needed. If ne one has a better expanation id like to hear it.

[anime52k8]

vernier thrusters, really strong ones.

and for all we know all missiles are radar guided, or home in on radiation or something other than heat.

[Mr March]

The missiles in Macross are self-guided and don't respond to external input. The only official specifics we know for sure about missiles in Macross is that they are "hybrid guided" (see AMM-1 missiles in the VF-1 profile on the Macross Compendium). Traditionally "hybrid guided" means a missile can track a target via several different methods, whether by heat or by radar. When Macross introduced cross-dimensional radar/fold wave radar and gravity wave detection systems, "hybrid guided" most likely implies these methods of target tracking as well.

Regardless of how warfare is conducted in the future world of Macross, some kind of electronic warfare component will exist. It's unavoidable. Detection and counter detection via electronic means, even employing advanced sci-fi electronics and exotic forms of electromagnetic radiation like in Macross, detection is still going to be a major part of the battlefield. Thus the VE-1 Elint Seeker and RVF-25 Messiah are still going to be relevant, necessary components of warfare.

[sketchley]

I have no idea what you mean.

and I like the VA-3, it's got such a cool design.

I think he means this: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VB-6_K%C3%B6nig_Monster

VB = Variable Bomber

VA = Variable Attacker

VT = Variable Trainer

VE = Variable Elint

VC- Variable Civilian/Citizen

[sketchley]

oh yeah... thats kind of in the same lot as the VA-14 though. it's a variant of a fighter thats never actually used in anything. and nothing but a couple of sketches exist for it.

Ah, but the VF-3000 was used. In Macross M3. See: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-3000_Crusader

[anime52k8]

It doesn't go Columbia, no matter how hard you hit it.

I don't get this line.

Ah, but the VF-3000 was used. In Macross M3. See: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-3000_Crusader

that's the VF-3000. the VB only exists as a few sketches that SK did.

VF-3000

VB-3000 (a.k.a. VF-3000B)

Edited December 30, 2008 by anime52k8

[ChronoReverse]

He's probably referring to space shuttle Columbia.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I've been giving some thought as to why there are always recon valks like the RVF-25 or VE-1 ELINT seeker... Youd think that by then there would be no need for a recon vessel since the targeting systems on the vf-1 and vf-25 models is so much more advanced...

The ESM equipment in a Recon variant is more sensitive and powerful than the standard model's. It's not as easily confused by a large number of contacts, has a larger range, and can control multiple Ghost systems, if necessary. This comes at the cost of defensive and offensive capabilities, as well as a larger sillhouette.

Also since very little heat signatures are emitted in cold space how would a valks missle system seek out enemy targets? is that the prupose of the recon vessels?

It's my assumption that they use Radar and electric-seeking sensors. Later, in the Frontier era, it's possible that Fold Wave Targeting has become small and cheap enough for use aboard missiles.

Another thing... the way the vf-25 makes sharp and fast turns in outer space where there is a vacuum and no air resistance seems inconceivable atm since no such technology exists to move a craft in space that fast and suddenly... I'm assuming that the vf-25 somehow manipulates a small gravitational field around the vehicle to push it in different directions if needed. If ne one has a better expanation id like to hear it.

Thrust Vectoring and vernier thrusters. Essentially, a cross between a space shuttle and a MiG-29.

The missiles in Macross are self-guided and don't respond to external input. The only official specifics we know for sure about missiles in Macross is that they are "hybrid guided" (see AMM-1 missiles in the VF-1 profile on the Macross Compendium). Traditionally "hybrid guided" means a missile can track a target via several different methods, whether by heat or by radar. When Macross introduced cross-dimensional radar/fold wave radar and gravity wave detection systems, "hybrid guided" most likely implies these methods of target tracking as well.

Listen to March, as he knows the answer.

Regardless of how warfare is conducted in the future world of Macross, some kind of electronic warfare component will exist. It's unavoidable. Detection and counter detection via electronic means, even employing advanced sci-fi electronics and exotic forms of electromagnetic radiation like in Macross, detection is still going to be a major part of the battlefield. Thus the VE-1 Elint Seeker and RVF-25 Messiah are still going to be relevant, necessary components of warfare.

And don't forget the Electronic CounterMeasure (ECM) factor. They're likely to contain ECM equipment, along with their ESM. If that is the case, Radar guidance is no longer a factor.

I think he means this: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VB-6_K%C3%B6nig_Monster

VB = Variable Bomber

VA = Variable Attacker

VT = Variable Trainer

VE = Variable Elint

VC- Variable Civilian/Citizen

VE = Variable Electronic

ELINT is the name of the whole system used to detect spacecraft.

I don't get this line.

Space Shuttle Columbia go BOOM over Texas, February 2003. I see it trailing debris and exploding... Fun to watch, not good for Variable Bomber. VB-6 no-go Columbia.

He's probably referring to space shuttle Columbia.

^

|

Chrono so sharp.

Edited December 30, 2008 by SchizophrenicMC

[sketchley]

that's the VF-3000. the VB only exists as a few sketches that SK did.

VF-3000

VB-3000 (a.k.a. VF-3000B)

As you said:

it's a variant of a fighter thats never actually used in anything. and nothing but a couple of sketches exist for it.

I understood that as: the VB-3000 is a variant of the VF-3000. The VF-3000 is never actually used in anything.

[sketchley]

VE = Variable Electronic

ELINT is the name of the whole system used to detect spacecraft.

NOPE. VE = Variable Elint

See Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01.

VA可変早期警戒機「バルアブルエリント」

"VE Variable Early Warning Fighter "Variable Elint"."

Space Shuttle Columbia go BOOM over Texas, February 2003. I see it trailing debris and exploding... Fun to watch, not good for Variable Bomber. VB-6 no-go Columbia.

Wow. Not only have you made an obscure reference that is more easily understood as going to the country, but you've insulted the families and friends of the people involved in the accident.

Edited December 31, 2008 by sketchley

[SchizophrenicMC]

NOPE. VE = Variable Elint

See Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01.

VA可変早期警戒機「バルアブルエリント」

"VE Variable Early Warning Fighter "Variable Elint"."

Wow. Not only have you made an obscure reference that is more easily understood as going to the country, but you've insulted the families and friends of the people involved in the accident.

Variable EWACS is more along those lines. ELINT stands for ELectronic signals INTelligence. EWACS is Early Warning And Control System.

And yes, yes, I did just insult the friends and families of the 7 unlucky bastards aboard the thing. Got anything else to say?

[anime52k8]

As you said:

I understood that as: the VB-3000 is a variant of the VF-3000. The VF-3000 is never actually used in anything.

ah, I meant that the VB-3000 is a variant of the VF-3000. The VB-3000 is never actually used in anything.

I guess I forgot a comma.

[azrael]

I fail to see what Columbia blowing up has anything to do with this thread.

[sketchley]

Variable EWACS is more along those lines. ELINT stands for ELectronic signals INTelligence. EWACS is Early Warning And Control System.

And yes, yes, I did just insult the friends and families of the 7 unlucky bastards aboard the thing. Got anything else to say?

So, what you're saying is that an official publication of canon Macross information is wrong. Right?

Edited December 31, 2008 by sketchley

[sketchley]

I guess I forgot a comma.

Could be worse. It could've cost you $2 million.

[hobbes221]

Variable EWACS is more along those lines. ELINT stands for ELectronic signals INTelligence. EWACS is Early Warning And Control System.

So, what you're saying is that an official publication of canon Macross information is wrong. Right?

The way that the RVF-25 and RVF-171 act in Frontier seems to be more of a ELINT/Recon role than a EWACS, as I never saw any 'Control' from Luca. I don't see how a single seater would be able to do the job that right now takes 3-4 people in the E-2 Hawkeye.

If the official word is 'ELINT' then that works for me.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I fail to see what Columbia blowing up has anything to do with this thread.

Koenig Monsters, being Variable Bombers, are cooler than VA-3s, being Variable Attackers. Add to that all the punishment they can take, and they're REALLY awesome, and they're space shuttles that don't blow up, as such, unlike Columbia

So, what you're saying is that an official publication of canon Macross information is wrong. Right?

Yes. Yes I am. ELINT is the wrong choice of words for the VFs with EWACS/AWACS equipment. I mean, the only equipment listed as ELINT on the entire RVF-25 is a single fin on the bottom. The radome and antenna array on the head unit are Early Warning And Control and Comms equipment, respectively. The ELINT fin on the bottom is used to detect enemy firing signatures, if I'm not mistaken.

And the RVF-25 has the ability to control up to 3 Ghost systems. There's your control, albeit in a more literal sense.

EWACS is Early (Before they hit you. Check) Warning (They're coming! Radome. Check) And Control(Ghost System, constant updates on enemy numbers, movement, and ES/CM use. Check) System.

ELINT is ELectronic (Yeah, it's ESM) Signals (Used to detect enemy signals) INTelligence(Knowing where and what they are.)

Though, I guess we can all agree that this is proper: Variable ESP (Electronic Support Plane). That's definitively what they are.

Hobbes: "Judah System: Release!" There's your control from Luca

Recon planes leave long before the battle starts

Computer, analyze this data. With more sophisticated semi-intelligent AI computer systems, the RVF-25 and 171 can carry an onboard tactical AI that controls Simon, Peter, and John (The Ghost AIF7Ss) that control them, more literally than Airborne Control is taken to be.

[Dangard Ace]

Koenig Monsters, being Variable Bombers, are cooler than VA-3s, being Variable Attackers. Add to that all the punishment they can take, and they're REALLY awesome, and they're space shuttles that don't blow up, as such, unlike Columbia

I'll put in in simple terms. No more Columbia analogies and all parties walk away happy and mods can go back to being sleeping dogs....or drunk dogs depending on how well tonight goes.

Back to discussion.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I'll put in in simple terms. No more Columbia analogies and all parties walk away happy and mods can go back to being sleeping dogs....or drunk dogs depending on how well tonight goes.

Back to discussion.

Fine. I'm a blunt guy, ok? I don't care who I offend or how. I've been banned from many a forum for that, but I'll stop.

Besides, does anyone here actually know anyone who was onboard?

[sketchley]

(...)

Yes. Yes I am. (...)

[hobbes221]

...Recon planes leave long before the battle starts...

In Vietnam recon planes like the RA-5C would make flights over targets that were just hit in order to preform Bomb Damage Assessment so they don't do there job only before the fight.

Birds like the E-3 and E-2 control most of the aircraft in a very large area of operation not just three UAVs so to me the Ghosts don't count. I saw Luca collect info in the middle of battle and pass it along both to his flight and to the fleet, there by giving real-time intel. I never saw him give commands to his flight on where to go and the like.

And the RVF-25 and RVF-171 ARE RVF not EVF or VEF or VE so that to me means Recon.

But I will give you that the Macross Compendium lists the RVF-171 as an Early-warning version (but not command) and yet at the same time the RVF-25 is listed as 'Version with enhanced electronic warfare capabilities' and nothing about early-warning. So the same or similar looking radome may be fitted with different gear for different roles. Maybe the Macross Chronicles will have some answers.

[SchizophrenicMC]

In Vietnam recon planes like the RA-5C would make flights over targets that were just hit in order to preform Bomb Damage Assessment so they don't do there job only before the fight.

Birds like the E-3 and E-2 control most of the aircraft in a very large area of operation not just three UAVs so to me the Ghosts don't count. I saw Luca collect info in the middle of battle and pass it along both to his flight and to the fleet, there by giving real-time intel. I never saw him give commands to his flight on where to go and the like.

And the RVF-25 and RVF-171 ARE RVF not EVF or VEF or VE so that to me means Recon.

But I will give you that the Macross Compendium lists the RVF-171 as an Early-warning version (but not command) and yet at the same time the RVF-25 is listed as 'Version with enhanced electronic warfare capabilities' and nothing about early-warning. So the same or similar looking radome may be fitted with different gear for different roles. Maybe the Macross Chronicles will have some answers.

How did all this come up? I thought we were discussing whether ELINT or EWACS was more appropriate. I, personally think EWACS, not ELINT is more appropriate for the object in mention. ELINT was a term made up for the VE-1, used to locate the Zentraedi before they attacked. EWACS is an actual term that describes ELINT's role, as well as the role of the RVF-25. Now, in all honesty, we can't assume they're using the triforce classification system. The RVF-25 is not a Recon Variable Fighter, but an Electronic Support variant.

Now, I'm sick of defending my way of thinking. My way of thinking comes from English literality. EWACS is a more literal terminology than ELINT.

"Screw dis war!" Sgt. Donny Torch, Ace Combat 6.

Happy New Year, btw.

[sketchley]

(...) Now, in all honesty, we can't assume they're using the triforce classification system.(...)

Who's doing the assuming? You, and you alone, are assuming a lot about the VE series. You're basing your information on what, exactly? The role that you perceived the vehicles of the class performing in the anime?

Why don't you take the time and do some more research before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole... perhaps even translate the section of Macross Chronicles that mentions the VE series. There's more than just one line there describing the role of the VE, you know.

(...)

My way of thinking comes from English literality. EWACS is a more literal terminology than ELINT.

(...)

Who said anything about needing literal (or any other form of) English to apply to a Japanese term defined in Japanese?

Also, for clarification - the VE class consists of all of the following:

VE-1 Elint Seeker.

That's it.

We *might* be able to stretch things, and add the VEFR-1 Funny Chinese. But as it's of the VEFR, and described as "for electronic warfare", it's still of a different class.

Edited January 1, 2009 by sketchley

[SchizophrenicMC]

As I said, "Screw dis war!" I've stopped caring. There's not enough in the class for some sort of stupid war over it. So, stop. We've got our opinions on what it should be named, and knowledge of what it is named. I say it's not a proper name. But whatever.

And as for the we part, I am SchizophrenicMC, after all.

[bullet101]

RVF-25 is a Recon and ELINT aircraft. You can see this from its designation R for Recon and by the whay it perfoms on screen, gathering intel about hostile craft, their weak points etc.

An AWACS is an early warning and command and control aircraft, and not just at squad level but at full tactical level as well, managing the battlefield. Quite obviously the RVF-25 is not this type of aircraft.