Valk Designs

[hobbes221]

YF-19 announced by UNAF as winning design 2041.

So the YF-19/21 program was a UNAF thing? I understand that we don't have the clearest info on this, but now that you showed us that UNAF thing Macross Plus makes a little sense now as every time I see a -21 I always think that the land gear looks far too weak for a carrier aircraft. Also would give a good reason for the -19F/S birds coming out behind the -19A with such a redesign.

[daflip702]

@daflip702

Mecha tech is Serious Businesss

Ooh....I understand.....nudge*nudge*

Just don't say that to the females...OK! See, you already learned some new swagger.

Edited November 14, 2008 by daflip702

[ChronoReverse]

Ooh....I understand.....nudge*nudge*

Just don't say that to the females...OK! See, you already learned some new swagger.

Whatever makes you feel big. Seriously, does it physically hurt or something if you don't throw in a backhanded insult?

Edited November 14, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[daflip702]

Whatever makes you feel big. Seriously, does it physically hurt or something if you don't throw in a backhanded insult?

Insult....c'mon man. No insult intended. First, all I said was that I "understand" where you're coming from. Second, that "line" stated earlier would NOT fair well with common "socialite" women (aka status type/club-going/stylistic...Paris Hilton). And that's all. Read it for all you like.

Anyways...I thought that the 19/21 Nova Project was conducted by UNSpacy....Kite Logo right?

[azrael]

Anyways...I thought that the 19/21 Nova Project was conducted by UNSpacy....Kite Logo right?

They all have the kite logo. But the UNAF was the primary sponsor of the Super Nova competition. UNS was on-board as secondary sponsor.

[Zinjo]

They all have the kite logo. But the UNAF was the primary sponsor of the Super Nova competition. UNS was on-board as secondary sponsor.

The Kite is the symbol for the UNG, not SPACY.

That's like saying the US Airforce logo should be on every F-15 and not the US flag insignia.

[Vic Mancini]

I always think that the land gear looks far too weak for a carrier aircraft.

But the airframe of a VF-1D battroid smashing through brick buildings without so much as a scratch seems realistic?

Overtechnology.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Also, landing gear is always more solid than it looks, Hobbes.

I'm taking piloting classes, like my father and grandfather before me, and all of the measurements are in the international system. This is to eliminate confusion. The International Flight Measurement System is in Feet, Pounds, and Miles Per Hour. Given, Kilograms, KPH, and Meters are occasionally used... However, I use the IFMS for my altitude measurements, just like all pilots. Except the Soviet Russians...

So, uh... Variable Arwing?

UNG is the owner of the Macross Kite. All UN craft carry it. ALL of them. Even the Destroids of the UNArmy. UN Marines Corps has it. UN Navy has it. UNAF has it. And, finally, the UNSpacy has it. It's like the US flag, as Zinjo said.

When you think about it, ALL of the following craft are on Active Front-line Duty:

VF-25

VF-171

VF-17

VF-19

VF-22

VF-14

VF-5000

VF-11

VF-4

VF-1

No matter what you say, the VF-1 is a formidable craft, and in the hands of a good pilot, could likely beat a rookie in a Messiah! And if Max Jenius had one, the Vajra war would have ended months earlier, in the total extinction of the Vajra! Even Chuck Norris is helpless to the Jenius' might!

Escape Velocity is 18,600 MPH from 0 FEET (Happy?) ASL. That is exactly Mach 24.473. You overestimated Escape Velocity of an Earth-class planet by about 7600 miles per hour.

If you hang from something for 24 hours, not only will you have been in orbit for 24 hours, but you will have completed an orbit, been in GEOSYNCHRONOUS orbit, and completed a low-altitude travel at over 3 miles per second. It's all about technicalities. Thanks to them, I'm never wrong. In MAINSTREAM knowledge, I might be incorrect, but in the TECHNICAL view, I'm right, and you know it.

Now, moving on from our battle of European versus American units, Valkyrie DESIGNS.

I still don't understand what makes Battroids slower in hard vaccuum than their Fighter counterparts. I mean, you know, besides making it The Super Dimensional Fortress: Gundam.

[ChronoReverse]

If you hang from something for 24 hours, not only will you have been in orbit for 24 hours, but you will have completed an orbit, been in GEOSYNCHRONOUS orbit, and completed a low-altitude travel at over 3 miles per second. It's all about technicalities. Thanks to them, I'm never wrong. In MAINSTREAM knowledge, I might be incorrect, but in the TECHNICAL view, I'm right, and you know it.

No, you are correct in _esoteric_ terms not technical since there's a specific technical definition of orbit when discussing spacecraft. You're only correct in _esoteric_ terms because you're taking a definition of orbit that's outside the technical norm. Furthermore, you're pressing a point when it's clear you simply were mistaken.

I still don't understand what makes Battroids slower in hard vaccuum than their Fighter counterparts. I mean, you know, besides making it The Super Dimensional Fortress: Gundam.

There's a few possibilities. In fighter mode, the thrusters are all aligned in a single axis for acceleration, therefore fighter provides the maximum possible acceleration. Battroid mode would thus vary from the fighter mode maximum to a lower limit. If you also take into account the higher energy costs in battroid mode one could hand-wave that battroid mode would be slower (actually accelerate slower) than fighter.

Still, in absolute terms, battroid mode should be able to attain the same acceleration as fighter mode in space under specific circumstances.

Edited November 15, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[anime52k8]

Now, moving on from our battle of European versus American units, Valkyrie DESIGNS.

I still don't understand what makes Battroids slower in hard vaccuum than their Fighter counterparts. I mean, you know, besides making it The Super Dimensional Fortress: Gundam.

the Real reason is (as I've stated before) is because this isn't gundam. but as for in universe, it's possible that the thrust is automatically limited in batroid mode.

in fighter mode the legs are strait, close together, and locked in to the rest of the vehicle fairly tightly. in the batroid mode, the legs are hanging off the valk, pointing off in slightly different directions and basically in a relatively unstable arrangement.

it's possible that if the valk was able to use its full thrust it would be uncontrollable. I'd imagine having all that thrust coming from the bottom of the legs would make it incredibly unstable and hard to keep oriented correctly. also high thrust could put extra stress on the joints of the legs/hips when they're in there expanded free moving batroid configuration.

it would be rather bad if the valk suddenly started flipping end over end or had the its legs fly off in different directions when it tried to accelerate.

another thing about Gundam, in Gundam the mechs always have the main thrusters are on the backpack, where as on Valks they're in the feet. the backpack is a much better place to put primary thrust since it's closer to the center of gravity. though it make's transforming into a jet more difficult.

that being said, I would think that the YF-21/VF-22 would be more stable and able to fly faster in batroid mode than most other valks because of it's thruster placement.

[SchizophrenicMC]

You're not paying attention to Gundams. You have seriously never noticed the foot thrusters? They're High-Thrust Verniers, given, but the ones on the GAT-X105 Strike were powerful enough to move its 90 ton mass towards an enemy at 1G of gravity acting as downward thrust and close to 1 sea-level atmosphere. So, don't rule out foot thrusters. Also, the legs in the Battroid lock down into certain positions. That's how they retain their straightness in Fighter mode and the chicken knee* in Gerwalk. It wouldn't be a stretch to say they could lock down into a stable position. Also, the leg thrusters are used quite often, especially from the return to Earth, onwards. Max's battle with Milia, for example. Given, it's atmospheric combat. Personally, I think it's just a choice of aesthetics. Kawamori-sensei wanted to differentiate his series from its predecessors. So, he made it necessary for the Valks to transform for top speed.

And Chrono, I thought I said I'd had enough of this. Please, stop. It matters not. This is about VALKYRIE DESIGNS! NOT UNITS OF MEASUREMENT OR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND ITS TECHNICALITIES! GRAHH!

Oh, hey, what does everyone think of the animation error in SDFM 32, known to Robotech fans as the YF-1R?

Yes, I like Robotech. I just put its Macross roots out of my head.

[David Hingtgen]

English and Imperial measurements are different, that's why I said English. US uses English, England uses Imperial. (since a large number of my aviation books are British but I'm American, it is an issue when converting between units--especially when "ton" is specified)

[azrael]

Oh, hey, what does everyone think of the animation error in SDFM 32, known to Robotech fans as the YF-1R?

Yes, I like Robotech. I just put its Macross roots out of my head.

Why do we care about a Robotech thingy that's not even in Macross, in a thread about Macross?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Because it's not a Robotech thing, it's an animation error? And since this is about the designs of Valkyries....

Edited November 15, 2008 by SchizophrenicMC

[Mr March]

It wouldn't be designated a "YF" if it were designated at all, but SchizMC is correct that it is a Macross design, not Robotech.

[ChronoReverse]

And Chrono, I thought I said I'd had enough of this. Please, stop. It matters not. This is about VALKYRIE DESIGNS! NOT UNITS OF MEASUREMENT OR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND ITS TECHNICALITIES! GRAHH!

If that were true you wouldn't conclude with this:

It's all about technicalities. Thanks to them, I'm never wrong. In MAINSTREAM knowledge, I might be incorrect, but in the TECHNICAL view, I'm right, and you know it.

It's childish of me but I intensely dislike this kind of intellectual dishonesty.

In any case, it's already a given that the valkyries are slower in battroid so we can only talk about why that might be the case. The proposed thrust stability and energy requirements theories are two reasonable possibilities.

Incidentally, even the VF-11 had a pair of backpack thrusters in addition to the legs. So there's some sort of division in the engine system that may also contribute inefficiencies.

Hmm, looks like even the YF-19's backpack thruster (single) is very powerful. Sufficient to drive the battroid mode by itself even. It's also interesting how the legs of the YF-21 also seem to have significant thrust. There's some serious engine and thrust splitting tech here.

Edited November 15, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[SchizophrenicMC]

I'm not gonna measure anything, anymore, if you're all gonna bitch about the units.

...And who says I'm not childish?...

Almost all valks have backpack thrusters. I'm just saying that Gundams have foot thrusters, too. Not only backpack thrusters.

March: Well, I dabble a bit in Robotech, where it's not considered an error, but an experimental version of the VF-1. So, I pointed out that Robotech fans call it the YF-1R. It's actually the fruit of 2 people animating the same scene, alternating frames. However, one was told to draw a VF-1J, the other an A. I'm pretty sure the one doing the J was right, but when they spliced the film together, it was a valk with a weird head and 3 cannons. In Robotech continuity, this is an experimental Veritech on a combat test, and it's essentially a VF-1J with advanced electronics, and a pulse cannon in the head unit.

And on the final note I will speak on the subject, I never said anyone was wrong in that post. In fact, in some form of a technicality, no matter what you say, you're right. For example, if I were to ask what a VF-1 was called, and someone said Mark, they'd be wrong. There's no technicality for that. This person fails at life. END!

[ChronoReverse]

Oh don't worry, I'm not disputing your mention of foot or backpack thrusters in this case =P. I was only noting that there appears to be a significant segmentation of the engine output in battroid mode which may also contribute to the lower total thrust (and thus acceleration).

Errors do occur from time to time anyway. For instance, the magic lasers of the YF-21 in the Plus movie.

And about the units thing, I didn't even go into that, this about the orbits.

Edited November 15, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[sketchley]

(...) The International Flight Measurement System (...)

I just did a google search on this term. Nothing came up (unless if we include investment fund & computer terminology.) I don't want to be a pain about this, but could you provide some links to a description of this? (Note: I'm not disagreeing nor stating that it doesn't exist. However, if it was as mainstream as claimed to be, it's lack of results is odd. Perhaps it has a different name?)

that you included a system of measurement.

[sketchley]

Arguing semantics at this point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units (US customary units = English units = Imperial units = standard units)

BTW, I'm not disagreeing that the measurement units currently used in the USA and those formerly used (but not completely unused in all situations) in the UK are different.

English and Imperial measurements are different, that's why I said English. US uses English, England uses Imperial. (since a large number of my aviation books are British but I'm American, it is an issue when converting between units--especially when "ton" is specified)

[SchizophrenicMC]

I see. Well, looking at the internals schematic of the VF-1 Battroid, it seems the entire engine assembly is in the lower leg. All that's in the upper is a second compressor unit, which I have no doubt is used for air ram mode, since it would double the compression rate of the engine, as well as work only in an atmosphere.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Uh... Hello?

[kanedaestes]

Sorry to geek out but I am really ecstatic that i thread i made lasted this long, and now back to the thread. Annnd go!

[SchizophrenicMC]

Yeah, my threads ANYWHERE don't last this long...

Anyway, anyone got anything to say about TRTs?

[Morpheus]

Yeah, my threads ANYWHERE don't last this long...

Anyway, anyone got anything to say about TRTs?

TRT? WIth the mentioning of International Standard, I'm kinda confused on what thing we are currently discussing here...

[SchizophrenicMC]

Thermonuclear Reaction Turbine

[anime52k8]

Thermonuclear Reaction Turbine

good question,

well in the real world we've come up with two way's of powering vehicles with nuclear/thermonuclear energy. the first is the nuclear jet engine, which uses a reactor to superheat air in and replace the combustion component of a convnetional engine, and the alternate option is nuclear pulse propulsion where you detonate a nuclear weapon behind the vehicle and then the vehicle rides the pulse.

clearly the TRT does not use either of these methods.

the TRT, based on the name uses some form of fusion, possibly using fusion initiated by antimatter.

beyond that I have no idea.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, it probably uses Hydro-nuclear Fusion to superheat the air in the combustion chamber for Air-ram mode. This would make sense, as the rounded shape of the turbine is necessary to accelerate Hydrogen atoms to high enough speeds to cause fusion. Also, the plasma could be expelled as exhaust, giving incredible amounts of thrust, generated by driving a magnetic field down the engine nacelle, forcing the plasma outward. This would explain the purple-blue exhaust of the VF-1. Superheated Hydrogen Plasma glows purple to blue. Bolly, I may have just cracked the riddle of Kawamori's sci-fi engine!

[ChronoReverse]

Unfortunately it doesn't explain why the exhaust doesn't fry everything in its path. OT could take care of that I guess =)

Edited November 19, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[daflip702]

Well, it probably uses Hydro-nuclear Fusion to superheat the air in the combustion chamber for Air-ram mode. This would make sense, as the rounded shape of the turbine is necessary to accelerate Hydrogen atoms to high enough speeds to cause fusion. Also, the plasma could be expelled as exhaust, giving incredible amounts of thrust, generated by driving a magnetic field down the engine nacelle, forcing the plasma outward. This would explain the purple-blue exhaust of the VF-1. Superheated Hydrogen Plasma glows purple to blue. Bolly, I may have just cracked the riddle of Kawamori's sci-fi engine!

Unfortunately it doesn't explain why the exhaust doesn't fry everything in its path. OT could take care of that I guess =)

frying everything in it's path....how bout keeping itself from exploding. Do you know what kind of materials it would take to harness that stuff? If you were to do it that way.....

Not to mention weight,shielding, etc.

[Morpheus]

This would explain the purple-blue exhaust of the VF-1. Superheated Hydrogen Plasma glows purple to blue. Bolly, I may have just cracked the riddle of Kawamori's sci-fi engine!

So the poor postman from SDF:M was instantly fried when Hikaru blast him with the foot

Wait, I think Hikaru also use the foot thruster at Breetai........

[anime52k8]

Well, it probably uses Hydro-nuclear Fusion to superheat the air in the combustion chamber for Air-ram mode. This would make sense, as the rounded shape of the turbine is necessary to accelerate Hydrogen atoms to high enough speeds to cause fusion. Also, the plasma could be expelled as exhaust, giving incredible amounts of thrust, generated by driving a magnetic field down the engine nacelle, forcing the plasma outward. This would explain the purple-blue exhaust of the VF-1. Superheated Hydrogen Plasma glows purple to blue. Bolly, I may have just cracked the riddle of Kawamori's sci-fi engine!

even using something as light and (potentially) highly compressible as hydrogen, I would have questions about fuel capacity.

I'm not sure if we have any real way of determining what kind of efficiency you could get out of said engine, but it would need to be incredibly high to provide the kind of endurance valks are shown to exhibit. (realistically, all the valks fuel would have to be stored in the legs. the routing to get fuel from anywhere else would be almost impossible)

I'm going to suggest that anti-mater production is much more cost effective thanks to protoculture tech. the anti-mater would provide for more efficient fusion (less initial energy consumption).

also is a magnetic field really necessary?

I would think that plasma forming in the enigne itself would be under enough pressure that you could more a less just vent it for thrust.

[anime52k8]

So the poor postman from SDF:M was instantly fried when Hikaru blast him with the foot

Wait, I think Hikaru also use the foot thruster at Breetai........

whether the engines were emitting superheated plasma, superheated air, or conventional jet exhaust the person is still going to be instantly fried at that distance.

[d3v]

Well, the only time we really see valks doing really long range stuff they always tend to be in some planet or in the earth. In space, you'll only consume fuel when performing alot of aerobatic maneuvers which require you to fire your verniers/thrusters, the main engines themselves are probably just emitting the bare minimum required to keep the plane straight and/or overcome any small local gravity fields.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, if the Tokamak Fusion Reactor is any indication, a magnetic field would be necessary to hold it together. Otherwise, the plasma would dissipate. This doesn't contribute to thrust. Zentraedi, especially High Commanders, like Britai, are much tougher than humans. Especially since the Mauler seemed to do little, and the GU-11 was worthless. Even after that, he WALKED, unassisted, up the side of the ship in hard vacuum.

Weight and shielding? First off, the ECA is strong and comparatively light. Secondly, the strongest parts of the frame would have to be in the engine nacelle; the weight is supported by them in all 3 modes.

Fuel tanks? Look at the attached picture. Those things are either fuel tanks or coolant tanks.

Explode? Fusion reactors, while unstable, are only so, due to proton bombardment and corrosion of the reactor's inner surface. If proper shielding could be made to prevent this corrosion... Look at the heat pile clusters in the Macross, every capital ship from there on, and in Mars Base. Fusion Reactors. My guess is OTec. And again, ECA. That stuff seems to be everywhere. We can harness the energy in a fusion reaction, we just can't sustain one without MASSIVE DAMAGE (Attack its weakpoint...) to the reactor.

And doesn't it fry everything in its path? The way plasma dissipates would give it a heat range similar, though hotter towards the engine, as the F-14. We see people always away from the engines, so no one gets fried. No vehicles are near the engines. And when we do see someone near them, it's on the ground, in my theory's third, not-previously-mentioned mode, Reactor mode. This is when no thrust, whatsoever, is being produced, and the engine is simply sustaining nuclear fusion for power. This is useful for being in Battroid mode, when ground combat is most common, and no thrust is necessary, as the legs are hydro-electrically driven.