Valk Designs

[badboy00z]

An Ace Combat style Macross game would be cool.

[SchizophrenicMC]

An Ace Combat style Macross game would be cool.

Yeah.

Back on-topic, a X-02 or ADFX-2 would make a pwnsome valk.

[Morpheus]

Yeah.

Back on-topic, a X-02 or ADFX-2 would make a pwnsome valk.

It would be good if you can visualize how they look like in batroid mode. AFAIK that's how SK made the valk series, he imagine what a normal fighter look like in batroid mode and made the necessary transformation.

Since most valk are designed from fighter mode to batroid, I wonder how they design the VB-6 to fit as a space shuttle since the basis is the Monster.

[SchizophrenicMC]

It's from a video game, originally, so it doesn't count?

There was an obsession with space shuttles?

Challenger?

[d3v]

It would be good if you can visualize how they look like in batroid mode. AFAIK that's how SK made the valk series, he imagine what a normal fighter look like in batroid mode and made the necessary transformation.

Since most valk are designed from fighter mode to batroid, I wonder how they design the VB-6 to fit as a space shuttle since the basis is the Monster.

With the VB-6, he probably started from Destroid mode. He probably chose a space shuttle since he needed a place to store the four large railguns

Edited October 28, 2008 by d3v

[anime52k8]

With the VB-6, he probably started from Destroid mode. He probably chose a space shuttle since he needed a place to store the four large railguns

he defiantly started from the Gerwalk mode (since the intent was to get a variable Monster) and made the necessary changes to make it turn into the fighter mode he wanted. and the batroid mode just sort of happened, (the most of the other gerwalk modes did)

[SchizophrenicMC]

You can see where he's coming from.

[Morpheus]

Can we talk about the Varauta valk?

There are 3 type of Varauta valk (FZ-109 Elgerzorene, FBz-99G Saubergeran and Az-130A Panzerzorene).

Elgerzorene are based on UNS\NUNS VF-14 Vampire, while the Saubergeran is based on VAB-2D.

What I'm wondering is the Az-130A Panzerzorene which are an upgraded FZ-109. They got stronger armor and extra missile launchers and AFAIK they don't have gerwalk mode.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I never saw most of 7, but I'd assume it was there, but was found to be ineffective, comparatively, to their normal tactics, as it was used mostly as a space fighter? GERWALK's original purpose was for VTOL and STOL, but was later found to be good for low-altitude strikes. If you're in space more, you don't need any of those, so they don't GERWALK it. Something that's inexcusable, though, is the lack of GERWALK Braking. (Poppin' the legs out to stop. FAST Pack Hikaru, VF-171EX Alto, etc.)

In the end, I can't tell you, since I never watched it. (Rock stars flying immensly complex giant robot transforming planes with guitar controls, among other instruments, using massive speakers to defeat their enemy in space never really struck my fancy...)

[azrael]

What I'm wondering is the Az-130A Panzerzorene which are an upgraded FZ-109. They got stronger armor and extra missile launchers and AFAIK they don't have gerwalk mode.

The Az-130 is derived from the VA-14. http://macross.anime.net/mecha/varauta/var...z130/index.html

It probably does have a GERWALK mode, but you could say at that point, the Protodeviln were just using them as lambs going to the slaughter house.

[sketchley]

Yes. Assuming VFs don't have a Gerwalk mode usually has those making the assumption proven wrong (VA-3 anyone?)

[Morpheus]

I just rewatched M7 (forgot which episode) which is the debut of the AZ-103, some of them are shown flying to ground in Gerwalk mode after they got hit by Basara rainbow beam.

[anime52k8]

Yeah.

Back on-topic, a X-02 or ADFX-2 would make a pwnsome valk.

(not mine, just found it)

[d3v]

(not mine, just found it)

Interesting, although IMO it would look better if it folded the nose down VF-25/VF-27 style and not have it jutting forward like in the VF-19.

[SchizophrenicMC]

The nose is too round....

Does it have the laser pod? *Eyes light up*

It's a good VADFX-1 Falken, but it lacks some things, you know.

The engines are too spindly

The nose is too long

Also, it's too round

Where's the COFFIN?

I swear, those are the VF-25's legs

Finally, it lacks the signature fin on the bottom. (For the non-AC guys, it looks like the RVF-25's ELINT Fin)

Some stuff I do like, though.

The head unit being integrated with the airframe, for one.

The unique way the rudders are in Battroid

The way the maker made the legs, though rounded, fit into the the nacelle's expansion point at the back. (In AC-universe, that was part of an afterburner structure, right?)

[badboy00z]

Maybe you can make one yourself.

[anime52k8]

The nose is too round....

Does it have the laser pod? *Eyes light up*

It's a good VADFX-1 Falken, but it lacks some things, you know.

The engines are too spindly

The nose is too long

Also, it's too round

Where's the COFFIN?

I swear, those are the VF-25's legs

Finally, it lacks the signature fin on the bottom. (For the non-AC guys, it looks like the RVF-25's ELINT Fin)

Some stuff I do like, though.

The head unit being integrated with the airframe, for one.

The unique way the rudders are in Battroid

The way the maker made the legs, though rounded, fit into the the nacelle's expansion point at the back. (In AC-universe, that was part of an afterburner structure, right?)

actually, the pic is of The ADFX-01 Morgan you're thinking about theADF-01F Falken

the fighter mode is 100% the same as the Morgan in game, hence the slightly wonky batroid mode.

[Valkyrie Driver]

From a military perspective, all of the valks are vulnerable. Simplicity is king. the more robust and simple the parts are, the better they are and the longer they will last. Now, I love the VF1 valk just because it's the original, also it's the only well known VF that doesn't have the rear facing head laser. My dad was a fighter pilot, and has taught me much, if the enemy is behind you, you shake him or you die. There is no time to line up a shot to the rear, that would require a separate display and it would split your attention, actually INCREASING your chances of dying. The VF0 is another favorite of mine, due to its similarity to real world fighters (Another reason I love the VF1). The thing is, I could see a ship like the VF0, VF1, or even the VF11 and VF22, flying today. Granted the sheer weight and bulk of the VF22 tends to put it squarely at the bottom of my list of favorite valks. The first gen VFs (VF0, VF1) being more conventional and also mounting external hardpoints, and not relying on FAST packs for hevy armaments, are just awesome. The real-ness of them is what I love. The VF19 transformation, while looking cool, was complex and it just seemed like the fighter's weak link. Another thing that endeared me to the original Macross, was the battroid combat. It was the same realism that attracted me to Gundam's 8th MS Team. The Battroids operated like huge infantrymen. THis also carried into Macross Plus, and the Mecha were well designed for the task. Unfortunately this is what leads me to the ballistic shields. If the Energy Converting Armor is as tough as or tougher than the armor of a tank, why do they need those shields? it would seem to add unnecessary bulk to the fighter, and it would be just one more thing to store. Also, what happens to the aerodynamic properties of the ship if the shield is damaged? As I said before, simplicity is king.

[ChronoReverse]

Unfortunately this is what leads me to the ballistic shields. If the Energy Converting Armor is as tough as or tougher than the armor of a tank, why do they need those shields? it would seem to add unnecessary bulk to the fighter, and it would be just one more thing to store.

The shield is made of (probably really expensive and heavier than usual) a special material that's even harder than ECA. Despite ECA, gunpod bullets usually rip right through.

Also, what happens to the aerodynamic properties of the ship if the shield is damaged? As I said before, simplicity is king.

Same as what happens with the warhog (A-10), you fly slower and use more thrust. Plus you can just jettison the thing. Valkyries have far more thrust than required to simply fly, so there's no problem as long as the engines still work. Just don't dogfight.

[RF-26AAC]

For what it's worth, has anybody played with the Transformers Animated Starscream?

The design actually lends itself fairly well to valk-age and does quite a nice gerwalk. If it weren't for the silly hands and stupid head it'd be quite the little light-valkyrie...

[Mr March]

I think variable fighters are totally fake

[Macross007]

I think variable fighters are totally fake

Like Pamela Anderson's breasts, but that does not mean we can't appreciate them.

[RF-26AAC]

Like Pamela Anderson's breasts, but that does not mean we can't appreciate them.

I'mma have to disagree with you there as there are far more artfully crafted (and far more wonderful) fake bosoms than hers

Pam Anderson is like a custom car that's been redone more than once; there's so much bondo there it doesn't look good anymore...

So anyways what exactly was the purpose of the VF-14 vampire (that became the Elgerzorene or however it's spelled)...

and more importantly, just how did the Protodevlin innovate those things with spiritia drain weaponry?

[Mr March]

Don't know. The VF-14 Vampire (Macross 7 P*L*U*S Version) is just described as a heavy variable fighter that incorporates Zentradi OverTechnology. It's also described as having high maneuverability in space. It probably fulfills a role similar to the VF-17 Nightmare, a heavy fighter built for long distance operations and optimal performance in space. The VF-14 Vampire trivia does mention it was used in survey fleets, so that may suggest it was a long-range space craft.

Perhaps the Chronicle will say more. But I bet the VF-14 (M3 Version) will be the one that appears. I think the VF-14 Vampire (Macross 7 P*L*U*S Version) will likely get buried, since it was described as a rough design only and the M3 version was the finalized design. I've not seen the VF-14 Vampire (Macross 7 P*L*U*S Version) published in any Macross book.

[Macross007]

Pam Anderson is like a custom car that's been redone more than once; there's so much bondo there it doesn't look good anymore...

Congragulations sir, you have won the "Joke of the Week Award".

[SchizophrenicMC]

Valkyrie Driver: While I understand what you're saying, let me point some stuff out from an engineering perspective. The pilot's perspective may differ.

the more robust and simple the parts are, the better they are and the longer they will last.

Well, the parts themselves are simple, and more robust than what is actually being fielded. The non-simple part is the arrangement of said parts. (And even then, the most complex parts are usually in the cockpit, where damage usually leads to the plane being non-recoverable, anyway.)

There is no time to line up a shot to the rear, that would require a separate display and it would split your attention, actually INCREASING your chances of dying.

The rear-facing laser isn't often used to shoot down incoming enemies. And if it ever is, it's more of a blind spray. That thing is rated to 6000 pulses per minute. More on some of the newer ones. Given, though, splitting your attention's never a good thing.

mounting external hardpoints

Have you watched Macross at all? All VFs have external hardpoints, but the newer ones have internal ones, as well. On the VF-25, for example, we explicitly see under and overwing hardpoints in use for carriage of reaction missiles, the heaviest weapons available to a fighter.* They weren't attached to the FAST pack.

VF19 transformation, while looking cool, was complex and it just seemed like the fighter's weak link

First, that started this whole thread. Second, I will give you that, since it's true from all standpoints. (However, there are certain advantages.)

Unfortunately this is what leads me to the ballistic shields. If the Energy Converting Armor is as tough as or tougher than the armor of a tank, why do they need those shields? it would seem to add unnecessary bulk to the fighter, and it would be just one more thing to store. Also, what happens to the aerodynamic properties of the ship if the shield is damaged?

The Ballistic Shields are made of heavier armor than the normal ECA. It's destroid-strength. Ground-pounders don't need to pay too much heed to their weight, since they're rooted to the ground anyway. So, they get stronger ECA. However, that ECA is heavier. VFs have lighter, weaker ECA. This is because they have to be light enough to fly. The addition of the Ballistic Shield was due to advances in ECA and thruster technology. Engines were stronger, ECA was lighter. However, heavy ECA was still too heavy to add to the entire fuselage. So, they designed a shield that could block hits to the torso. In the event that it is pierced, it can be ejected, as it is held onto the arm, most likely, by an electromagnetic coupling system. The flight dynamics would not be compromised by such action, as the VFs are actually designed to have parts ejected in emergencies. Gunpods, arms, head units, you name it. Only the legs (Even then, the VF-22 can) cannot be ejected. And, as was said previously, do like an A-10.

As I said before, simplicity is king.

Damned straight. And as VFs progressed, they actually were simpler. Sure, some of the mechanical parts weren't. However, said parts were large and easy to access. Therefore, easy to fix. Now, I'll ask you this: Have you ever been elbow-deep in an F-15? They're among the simplest, easy-to-repair fighters we've ever had. Still, though, they're a bitch to find broken parts in. Simplicity is emperor, but it's not always possible.

Now, please, keep in mind I'm not ripping on you or your opinions. I am simply providing a rebuttal of facts against some of the things you said. If you are offended, you have my sincerest apologies.

*This is not including the Micro Dimension Eaters used towards the end of Frontier. They were more powerful. On the same token, they were mounted in the same configuration as the Reaction Warheads.

[hobbes221]

There is no time to line up a shot to the rear, that would require a separate display and it would split your attention, actually INCREASING your chances of dying.

I would think that the fire control system for the rear firing laser would be something like the CIWS guns on today's ship. In that the system would already be tracking the target and the act of pulling the trigger would be more of giving the okay to fire rather than firing the laser itself.

-sidenote- I think I remember hearing that some Sweden fighter, I think the JAS-39, has a system tied into the fire and flight controls that so as long as he had a radar lock when the pilot pulled the trigger for the gun the flight control computers would adjust the flight path to place the rounds on target.

[Valkyrie Driver]

In response to SchizophrenicMC, I have watched macross, though, until recently haven't paid too much attention to the Valks themselves. Granted the valks are a huge part of the franchise, there is so much else that is going on, the dogfights are what really have interest for me, as well as the other combats. And true I may have said alot of subjective things, and much of it may have been slight ignorance and me talking out of my arse. My confusion about the external hardpoints come from my limited observation. I concede those points to you and was not offended. (Besides anyone who is offended by a well thought out response need their head checked anyway.) I have not seen macross 7 so I can't speak about that series, but in Macross plus and Macross Frontier, I have not seen the use of external hardpoints except on the VF171. So I apologize for an false claims I may have made. As for internal weapons bays, I am not a big fan of them, to me it seems like just one more system to malfunction. Another thing that strikes me as odd about the Macross franchise, is that in a space of 50 years, they have gone through eight main line combat craft, that I have seen or heard of (In the US military there is no such thing as a main line fighter, Each ship has a specific role, sometime its specific role is to perform multiple roles).

If we use the US Navy as a guage, that may not be far fetched, the odd part to me, is the (Again to my eyes) lack of anything but multi role fighters. Again to use the USN as a guage, they have multi role fighters, and yes mission specific birds based on the same air frame (e.g. F/A-18E/F and EA-18G analagous to the VF-1 and VE-1) but also unique mission specific ships such as the S-3 Viking and E-2 Hawkeye (the only mission specific Variable Craft I've heard of was the VA3 Invader). Granted those ships are larger than fighters, but they have specific roles. The Variable fighters in Macross all seem to be Jacks of all trades. In my limited knowledge, I know this, you can't have one bird that does everything and be superb at them all. You either have one mission it excels at or no missions that it excels at. Case in point, the A-10. Sure it is a fantastic airplane, it can turn and potentially you could dogfight with it, it does great at close air support, it carries more ordinance than the old B-17, But the mission it was really intended for, was killing tanks. And it does that very very well. To me it seems that the VFs are intended for one thing, aerospace supremecy, and they get alot of chances to do it. All I guess this is saying is I wish we saw more of the other cool mecha and see how they work together. But that has nothing to do with VF design.

I do like that Kawamori-sama based most of his VFs off of real world silouettes. The VF0 and VF1 are remeniscent of the F14, the VF4 was based heavily on it's nameske the P38 among others, the VF11 had alot of MiG29 and Su37 influences, the VF17 is obvious even by it's number designation, the VF19 by the Su47 Berkut, and the VF22 by the YF23. The only fighter that had any screen time that has no heavy basis on any one fighter is the VF25. But even so, the VF25 was influenced by the F14, Su37, and the Su47. The thing that ll of the ships have in common, Real and Fictional is that they are twin engine. Just once I'd like to see a single engine VF, it sounds wierd but it might be cool to see the light single engine fighter make an appearance. Oh and I don't know who said it, but the folding wings like on the SV51, VF22, and VF25, just don't stow as neatly as the sweep wings of the VF0 and VF1. THough the VF22's wings stow more neatly than the VF25 and SV51. My big issue with the SV51 is those wings, they're too straight, not enough sweep to the leading edges for a high speed fighter, IMO. Now granted I'm no engineer, but the sweep seems too shallow. The other issue I have with the wings is the hinges. Granted, that carrier based aircraft have hinged wings for storage, it is usually only the outboard two feet or so of each wing. The SV51 appears to have one hing at the wing root, and one more that is smack dab in the middle of the wing. THe hinges are the weakest link in a carrier based fighter's wing which is why they have only one per. Given the tougher materials used by VFs, this may not be an issue, but to me it seems like a liability. Though with the SV51's obvious russian design philosophy and naming scheme, it would seem tough (albeit ugly, russian planes always looked ugly to me, too industrial).

Cockpit controls in the VFs (at least the controls in the VF1 from SDF Macross) seem, stange. The only controls that I have seen, that actually look like they'd work for a battroid are the controls from the Arm Slaves from Full Metal Panic!. They use a master slave system to control the whole arm and leg mechanism, by minute movement in the pilot's arms and legs. Now I don't know how much thought was put into the interface, if Kawamori-sama sat down and contemplated this for hours and days on end, but the controls look awkward for the battroid. Fighter and Gerwalk modes would function exactly like a fighter and helicopter (I would imagine that the throttle would be come the collective/throttle, the stick would become the cyclic, and the rudder pedals would act like the antitorque pedals) respectively. The battroid though is an entirely different animal. each stick (if I'm not mistaken the throttle rachets into three positions to switch modes, at least in the hotas cockpits) would control the arms, and hands while the pedals control the legs and feet. The other part of the cockpit that niggles at my mind (only occasionslly, when I'm thinking about macross) is how do you move the head? My first thought would have jumped to some form of helmet mounted display, with a projected image on the pilot's visor, with an overlaid hud. But then you'd have transparency issues, and being unable to pick out details. I know that they use video viewscreens to fight, but in all the fighters (YF19 and YF21 excluded, maybe the VF25 and some others that may come from Macross 7) the view behind them is non existant. (from the cockpit) so how does the head turn so you can use that wonderful peripheral vision to detect threats visually. (Lord knows that sensors can malf up).

Oh yeah, the ballistic shields, thanks for clearing that up, I still don't like them (They just bug me, I don't know what it is about them, maybe it's the way I see them used. The pilots charge in rahter than play it cool. Ever notice that some of the protagonists in the newer shows Macross Plus and Frontier are hotheads? Them kind of pilots don't usually live very long in real world dogfights.) I'd be more apt to liking the shield on a full armor system, and speaking of which the VF11's full armor system seemed to be one of the best to me, due to its use of supplementary guns and missiles.

The Head lasers still bug me to but I guess it's personal preference, I guess I just like the idea of having all of my weapons useable in a dogfight, besides the VF is the gold standard by which we compare all other VFs. Feel free to add, clarify, destroy, or applaud my opinions, feedback is much appreciated.

[ChronoReverse]

Good grief. Line breaks are your friends. Press Enter more often.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, we've seen Head Lasers used in all modes except GERWALK. (I haven't seen 7, either, so that could be where) So, I'd assume all your weapons are usable at all times. (I know for a fact the Gunpods are usable in Fighter, even if it's not shown.)

Hotheaded pilots are a huge part of the anime magic that goes into this.

There are sensors that pick up necessary data on the sides of the head? Maybe it's got an IR head tracker? Er... I dunno...

The throttle changes positions to tell the flight computer to transform the plane. At horizontal, it's in Fighter mode. Fourty-five degrees switches to GERWALK. Vertical makes it shift to Battroid. Now, the foot pedals. They're push-to-yaw, like a normal plane today. Difference is they have a second set of sensors that pick up foot movement in a down or up sense. So, you push one in to turn, and push down to control the feet. The feet, being thrust vectoring nozzles, move in Fighter mode corresponding to how you control them. There is a lot of automation in a valk, remember this. It knows what mode you're in, it knows what controls you're inputting, and it knows how to carry out the output. If you push the pedals down in Battroid mode, it walks forward. Pull them up (It's linked to the flight suit) and you backpedal. If you're in midair, it fires the thrusters, as well. Combining push and pull is how you turn. It's similar to walking, though you don't have to move your whole leg. Makes more sense than motion-sensitive controls, in most cases. When you move the control stick, the arm moves autonomously in a way that corresponds to the input motion.* The throttle seems to be on a gimbal, so it functions identically to the control stick while in Battroid mode. (Takes deep breath) Ok, so firing control. When you fire in Battroid, you're not firing a weapon, per se. You're moving the right upper manipulator. It just so happens that, normally, there is a weapon with a mechanical trigger held in the manipulator. Now, it's possible to switch to a firing mode which allows for missile launch, head laser fire, and automated anti-missile fire. This is in a different section than the mechanics I'm covering. The fingers are controlled by a set of buttons in the front of the throttle and control stick.

*The Ex-gear appears to have a motion-sensitive system which allows more movement from the arms, allowing the practical use of the PPB on the anti-armor knife. Also, it incorporates a slave-control system. Because of this, the pilot can control his VF-25 from outside of the cockpit. I can explain this in further detail if you'd like.

The SV-51's wings aren't very long. It is because of this that it is still effective at high speed. For low speed, it uses, generally, GERWALK mode, though it can use a set of high-powered lift fans to keep it airborne at low speed, though it isn't incredibly effective.

A single-engined VF was spoken of earlier on in this thread, and it would be cool.

The SV-51 also had that system because it deploys more quickly, which is necessary from a zero-distance catapult launch, especially a vertical one.

Finally, the VF-25 has, at least 4 underwing hardpoints. Remember that scene? I'd bet the inside hardpoints are used to mount super packs.

[anime52k8]

As for internal weapons bays, I am not a big fan of them, to me it seems like just one more system to malfunction.

And yet they have them on modern fighters (F-22, F-35, SU-47, etc. etc.) like them or not they have real world precedence. (also the VF-25 no longer has internal weapons bays)

Another thing that strikes me as odd about the Macross franchise, is that in a space of 50 years, they have gone through eight main line combat craft, that I have seen or heard of (In the US military there is no such thing as a main line fighter, Each ship has a specific role, sometime its specific role is to perform multiple roles).

The rate at which they end up supplanting valks always used to strike me as strange too (especially considering that in the real world the trend has been towards aircraft having ever longer service lives). The best justification I can come up with it that with the rise of OTech ® technological leaps and bounds come along much more rapidly, (just look at the engines on valks, the thrust to weight ratios just about double with every new generation of valk.)

But because of how complex a variable fighter is, they by their very nature have to be designed already just about at the technological limit of a given airframe. (Unlike a modern aircraft which is designed with the intention that it’s systems/weapons/engines will be upgraded)

the odd part to me, is the (Again to my eyes) lack of anything but multi role fighters. Again to use the USN as a guage, they have multi role fighters, and yes mission specific birds based on the same air frame (e.g. F/A-18E/F and EA-18G analagous to the VF-1 and VE-1) but also unique mission specific ships such as the S-3 Viking and E-2 Hawkeye (the only mission specific Variable Craft I've heard of was the VA3 Invader). Granted those ships are larger than fighters, but they have specific roles. The Variable fighters in Macross all seem to be Jacks of all trades. In my limited knowledge, I know this, you can't have one bird that does everything and be superb at them all. You either have one mission it excels at or no missions that it excels at. Case in point, the A-10. Sure it is a fantastic airplane, it can turn and potentially you could dogfight with it, it does great at close air support, it carries more ordinance than the old B-17, But the mission it was really intended for, was killing tanks. And it does that very very well. To me it seems that the VFs are intended for one thing, aerospace supremecy, and they get alot of chances to do it. All I guess this is saying is I wish we saw more of the other cool mecha and see how they work together. But that has nothing to do with VF design.

Well if you go by what the USN is like then the way things are done in the Macross universe aren’t much different, the Navy and the US military as a whole has been moving towards fewer and fewer unique airframes for years. Currently the F-14, the A-6, the EA-6B, and the S-3 either have been or in the process of being replaced by what is essentially F/A-18E/F’s with different equipment and electronics packages.

If you look at the Mac+/Mac7 eras you have a wide variety of valks in service. The VF-11 is similar to the modern F-16 or F-18 (relatively cheap light fighter that fills a wide variety of roles.) the VF-14 and later the VF-17 fill a role similar to the F-15 or F-22 (dedicated air/aerospace superiority fighter) then you have the VA-3 filling in the dedicated attack role.

Other additional roles are filled by non variable vehicles (such as shuttles, destroids, conventional aircraft etc. etc.)

So overall there’s a lot of variation and specialization, though because of changes in technology and specific battlefield needs valks don’t fill modern aircraft roles the 1 to 1.

I do like that Kawamori-sama based most of his VFs off of real world silouettes. The VF0 and VF1 are remeniscent of the F14, the VF4 was based heavily on it's nameske the P38 among others, the VF11 had alot of MiG29 and Su37 influences, the VF17 is obvious even by it's number designation, the VF19 by the Su47 Berkut, and the VF22 by the YF23. The only fighter that had any screen time that has no heavy basis on any one fighter is the VF25. But even so, the VF25 was influenced by the F14, Su37, and the Su47. The thing that ll of the ships have in common, Real and Fictional is that they are twin engine. Just once I'd like to see a single engine VF, it sounds wierd but it might be cool to see the light single engine fighter make an appearance.

It’s actually been debated on here several times before why there haven’t been any single engine valks and whether a single engine valk would work. the reason why we don’t see them is probably because it’s easier for SK to design cool looking valks that have two engines as opposed to one

Additionally, having a single engine would mean that the engine can’t be in the leg and while in some way’s this may be a benefit (if you lose the leg you can still move around). But it also creates a lot of problems. Legs without engines are basically dead weight the valk has to lug around in fighter mode, and it’s already has less thrust since it only has one engine.

Most fan attempts to do single engine valks have ended up being either overly complicated or inefficient.

Oh and I don't know who said it, but the folding wings like on the SV51, VF22, and VF25, just don't stow as neatly as the sweep wings of the VF0 and VF1. THough the VF22's wings stow more neatly than the VF25 and SV51. My big issue with the SV51 is those wings, they're too straight, not enough sweep to the leading edges for a high speed fighter, IMO. Now granted I'm no engineer, but the sweep seems too shallow. The other issue I have with the wings is the hinges. Granted, that carrier based aircraft have hinged wings for storage, it is usually only the outboard two feet or so of each wing. The SV51 appears to have one hing at the wing root, and one more that is smack dab in the middle of the wing. THe hinges are the weakest link in a carrier based fighter's wing which is why they have only one per. Given the tougher materials used by VFs, this may not be an issue, but to me it seems like a liability. Though with the SV51's obvious russian design philosophy and naming scheme, it would seem tough (albeit ugly, russian planes always looked ugly to me, too industrial).

I kind of like the way the valks look when they use folding rather than swing wings, personal taste I guess. The SV-51’s wings do seem too straight, and they probably aren’t aerodynamically great, it’s just one of the strange design choices SK made. But the hinge placement really doesn’t seem all that odd to me. On The Su-33 Sea Flanker the more than 2/3 of the wing hinge up, and the SV-51 is based off the Flanker (In fact the Sukhoi was one of the manufactures of the SV-51 in Mac0)

Cockpit controls in the VFs (at least the controls in the VF1 from SDF Macross) seem, stange. The only controls that I have seen, that actually look like they'd work for a battroid are the controls from the Arm Slaves from Full Metal Panic!. They use a master slave system to control the whole arm and leg mechanism, by minute movement in the pilot's arms and legs. Now I don't know how much thought was put into the interface, if Kawamori-sama sat down and contemplated this for hours and days on end, but the controls look awkward for the battroid. Fighter and Gerwalk modes would function exactly like a fighter and helicopter (I would imagine that the throttle would be come the collective/throttle, the stick would become the cyclic, and the rudder pedals would act like the antitorque pedals) respectively. The battroid though is an entirely different animal. each stick (if I'm not mistaken the throttle rachets into three positions to switch modes, at least in the hotas cockpits) would control the arms, and hands while the pedals control the legs and feet. The other part of the cockpit that niggles at my mind (only occasionslly, when I'm thinking about macross) is how do you move the head? My first thought would have jumped to some form of helmet mounted display, with a projected image on the pilot's visor, with an overlaid hud. But then you'd have transparency issues, and being unable to pick out details. I know that they use video viewscreens to fight, but in all the fighters (YF19 and YF21 excluded, maybe the VF25 and some others that may come from Macross 7) the view behind them is non existant. (from the cockpit) so how does the head turn so you can use that wonderful peripheral vision to detect threats visually. (Lord knows that sensors can malf up).

It’s unlikely that SK ever actually put much thought into how a Valk is actually controlled. In fact it seem to change from valk to valk. The SDF:M actually seamed the most realistic to me (excluding the YF-21). You had two sticks, a split throttle (as you should on a twin engine plane.) multiple foot pedals, and a myriad of other levers and switches and other controls. Fighter mode it controlled like a fighter, in Gerwalk like a helicopter, and In batroid the pilot performed an amazing juggling act using every control to get the thing to work.

The controls on latter valks seemed a little too simplified, but most people seem t believe that flying a valk is a bit like playing a video game. The pilot uses basic control movements to tell the valk what to do, and the valk itself automatically does the movements.

It’s also possible considering what we’ve seen that the valk has some form of real time motion capture where the pilots upper body movements are monitored and replicated by the valk.

The most believable in my opinion is the YF-21, which is controlled by thought. In that case the pilot just thinks doing the movement with his own body, and the valk moves.

One thing that I always found strange though was that while on a real fighter the foot pedals control the ailerons and therefore yaw, in macross the Foot pedals of the valk appear to be directly tied to the feet/engine nozzles of the valk and therefore control Pitch and role.

:edit:

oh yeah, and as for the head movement thing, there's probably a little thumb stick on one of the controls that can be used to move the head around. (sort of like how you adjust the camera in a flight simulator type video game.)

Edited November 9, 2008 by anime52k8

[SchizophrenicMC]

One thing that I always found strange though was that while on a real fighter the foot pedals control the ailerons and therefore yaw, in macross the Foot pedals of the valk appear to be directly tied to the feet/engine nozzles of the valk and therefore control Pitch and role

I just explained that. Literally like 45 minutes ago. It's a dual-sensitive system. If pushed back like in a normal plane, they control the rudders, therefore yaw. If pushed down (Watch Zero), they control the thrust vectoring nozzles (feet), therefore pitch and roll. It makes sense. It really does.

Oh, and the head could've (by no stretch of the imagination) used a system similar to the TrackIR motion sensor. It uses an infrared sensor to reflect off of a set of reflectors, usually mounted on a hat, to track motion and position. It then relays the data into a program, allowing for virtual motion. Essentially, you move your head right, the camera moves right. This motion could be slaved to the head unit.

Edited November 9, 2008 by SchizophrenicMC

[anime52k8]

I just explained that. Literally like 45 minutes ago. It's a dual-sensitive system. If pushed back like in a normal plane, they control the rudders, therefore yaw. If pushed down (Watch Zero), they control the thrust vectoring nozzles (feet), therefore pitch and roll. It makes sense. It really does.

well, you posted durring the time I was writing my response so I didn't read it till after I was done, (I took a break while writing to go eat dinner).

and I still find it a little iffy. it seems to me that putting both yaw and pitch/role on the foot peddles would be a bad idea, as it makes it possible to accidentally possible to execute a role when you meant to yaw just because your foot slipped. also it seems rather pointless considering that the stick still controls roll. (why do you need two different controls to do the same function)

[hobbes221]

Valkyrie Driver I've been trying to work out the whole foot pedal thing after I saw Zero as well and the way that I came up with that I liked myself was to have a switch or button on ether the stick or throttle (preferably operated by the little finger, don't know why but that feels right) that when used would change the way that the controls respond. It seems odd to have something like this but I feel that it would be needed for a craft such as the VF that operates in both air and space. We have seen how VFs 'fly' in space in the same manner as an aircraft would in an atmosphere and we have also seem them move along the same lines as the Vipers from BSG, as in flipping and darting around like a humming bird on Jolt cola. If anyone has thoughts on this I'm all ears.

I too wish to see a VF air wing with a range of different types (I have for some time been taking VFs from all of Macross and making my own air wing just for kicks.)

And as to the head lasers, I brought that up a while ago and we had a good talk on that back in Frontier Tech II I think, we even started a whole thread on the tech of lasers in the Macross world if you missed it. I myself love the VF-1 with the head and guns on the belly, now I want to see a VF-1 with the wing root cannons from the -25 so it can have up to SEVEN forward guns in fighter mode!

-edit- Oh yeah, Valkyrie Driver welcome to MW if it hasn't been said, it looks like we're going to have some good tech discussions with you (and I'm always up for that)

Edited November 9, 2008 by hobbes221

[SchizophrenicMC]

It's simple: Resistance on the sensor plate. It takes effor to move the pedal for thrust vectoring, but easy to move for yaw. Sit down, move your right foot forward. Now, make both level at a comfortable position in front of the chair. Elevate your feet to about 45 degrees. Move your feet in a simple ankle movement. That's how the control system is based.

Hobbes: Through the use of many Vernier thrusters and thrust vectoring, it's possible to achieve flight similar to atmospheric flight in space. Given, there are many, many split-second corrections, and the verniers would likely burn out very quickly. Watching an F-14 dogfight is more fun than watching Space Shuttle Discovery dock with the International Space Station, however.

Also, go to zomgforums.com/group.php and you'll find the Macross Super Fanclub. We're an air wing with (mostly VF-1As because no one's said what they want to pilot) a motley crew of VFs. I think you'd like it.