Macross Class vs New Macross Class

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

How about taking the SDF-1, throwing away the 2 carrier arms and sticking a Macross Quarter on each side instead? The Macross Quarter was in the same 400m length size as the 2 carriers anyway.

Super Gettai Macross!

[sucker4meltrans]

How about taking the SDF-1, throwing away the 2 carrier arms and sticking a Macross Quarter on each side instead? The Macross Quarter was in the same 400m length size as the 2 carriers anyway.

Super Gettai Macross!

hmm when the Macross and the Quarters are all in ship mode they would have to mount the quarters in such a way so the quaters main thursters pointed towards the rear. would you leave the quarters in cruiser mode when the macross goes to attack mode so the macross can have arms? or would you have the quarters transform to attack mode too? or maybe the macross in cruiser with the quarters in attack mode? OH THE POSSIBILITIES FOR MECHA PRON! /NERDGASM

[Mr March]

I wonder, what role does the Macross Quarter fulfill in the New UN Spacy fleet? Given the loose definitions for many of the warships classes, I suppose it could be any number of designations. The Macross Quarter is small but heavily armed, so perhaps it could be a cruiser. But it also has extensive aircraft/spacecraft capabilities, so it could just be another type of carrier. But I wonder, what prompted the New UN Spacy (and by extension, Kawamori) to build these quarter sized Macross-like carriers?

I initially thought that we were not going to see any New Macross Class (NMC) vessels in Frontier. I was definitely mistaken and happy I was, but it does open the question what purpose the Macross Quarters serve. It's clear the NMC vessels are still in very active service and their capabilities are definitely in demand. The Guantanamo, Uraga and Stealth Frigates are all still in active service (plus that new fella, the grey colored frigate). Was cost a factor? The NUNS wanted more Macross-like ships but lacked the funds to build lots of NMCs, so they built Quarters? Are the Macross Quarters meant to replace Guantanamos or do the Quarters fulfill some role that was previously vacant?

I wonder what the Macross Chronicle will say.

[ChronoReverse]

It could simply be that the Quarter was a test ship and is unique. Depending on how it performs, a cost analysis will be done and further ships will be built or not built.

[sucker4meltrans]

i get the feeling the quarter is an old prototype that didn't get bought by NUNS so it was sold off to a private military contractor.

[VF-25 Messiah]

i get the feeling the quarter is an old prototype that didn't get bought by NUNS so it was sold off to a private military contractor.

What exactly gave you this feeling? Nothing about the quarter strikes me as 'old', rather it seems to be groundbreaking on taking the the macross concept to a much smaller and many times more maneuverable package

[hobbes221]

I wonder, what role does the Macross Quarter fulfill in the New UN Spacy fleet?...

I think that the Quarter would give fleets a ship that could act on it's own, maybe as a long range scout for the rest of the fleet. I get feeling that it would not need as much help from other ships, where as the Guantanamo and Uraga seem to require escorts to survive in combat. For some reason the Quarter reminds me of the escort carriers of WWII. If I had to name the class something like Macross Fast Attack Carrier would seem to fit.

[Fade Rathnik]

A Macross class ship has always struck me as being a BattleCarrier as it is both a battleship and a carrier. Even the NMC granted its more Carrier then Battle compared to the other two. It makes sense if an enemy can jump you at any range to have very well armed carriers.

As far as the Quarters role? Flanker/Ship Killer/Scout/Power Projection. So Light Battle Carrier

[Mark Nguyen]

Does "battle carrier" exist as common nomenclature? For the Quarter, I prefer light attack carrier (CVA in WWII) or simply battlecruiser. Carrying fighters seems to be standard on all UNS/NUNS ships anyway, all the way down to the 250m Steath Frigates and lowly Sentinel carrier. Of course, calling a ship an "attack" carrier may be taboo in a pacificist society (whcih is why no one HAS attack carriers or battlecruisers in the USN anymore), so escort carrier might make more sense.

The Quarter Pounder certainly seems like a ship with a certain autonomous spin to it, but that may be simply because the bunch of thugs that operate it are independent from the military to begin with. But as the smallest NUNS ship with a BFG and strong melee capabilities, it may well be intended to go where the larger ships can't go, and to do it alone. I can easily see a Quarter as a spec ops ship, scout, surgical strike vessel, and the flagship of small flotillas of older, non-Macross ships (as indeed it seemed to do in episode 7).

As for the original Macross versus NMCs, etc., it might be comparing apples to oranges. Macross may have been covered with converging beam weapons and missile batteries, but what use are they if the beam guns can't penetrate the armor or PPBs of more modern ships? And why have guns of limited effective range when guided missile strikes can take out an enemy from a distance? Today's warships don't look like the battleships of old simply because there's no reason to have large numbers of guns anymore, as cool as they look. Even the Iowa-class battleships served more as platforms for 32 tomahawk missles, rarely using their guns, where smaller ships like the Arleigh Burke destoyers could carry up to 192 missiles! The NMCs' lack of big gun armament does not necessarily mean that they are purely carriers; rather, they can still be effective all-range warships using their superior fighters and missles as their primary weapon, just like today's carriers. If there are fleet formations that need taking out, then you risk your ship to get close in enough to take them out with the Macross Cannon, if your fighters armed with reaction warheads somehow can't do it.

Mark

Edited October 8, 2008 by Mark Nguyen

[mikeszekely]

I think something else to consider when comparing the Macross-Class and the New Macross-Class is their individual roles. The UN didn't have much in the way of warships before Space War 1. Compared the the ARMD and Oberth-Class ships, the Macross was easily the pinnacle of Spacy technology. Post-Space War 1, Macross Frontier has shown us that more Macross-Class vessels were built, and it seems likely that they (as well as leftover Zentraedi ships) were used as escorts for Megaroad-Class ships.

Fast-forward to modern times (in the Macross universe). We've got plenty of advanced warships in the Frontier fleet. Uraga, Bolognese, Guantanamo, Valhalla, Algenix, and at least one unnamed class from Frontier. The New Macross-Class is a last-line of defense at the City/Island ships, behind a defensive perimeter of other ships and a screen of fighters.

[Mr March]

Does "battle carrier" exist as common nomenclature?

Mark

Yes, at least in Macross nomenclature. The Uraga Class Escort Battle Carrier. I think Fade Rathnik has a good point; the Macross Quarter could very well be a Battle Carrier.

Remember, these ships of Macross are not planet bound naval vessels. Macross like many other sci-fi stories uses some existing terminology to give reality to the fictional vehicles and provides an anchor which the audience can use to relate to what they are seeing. However, clearly with terms like Battle Carrier or Super Dimension Fortress, Macross is not bound by conventional warship terminology. Probably a wise choice, since not all the traditional terms for ocean going warships are going to apply to space faring vessels.

[Mark Nguyen]

Agreed; though it is fun to incorporate precedent sometime. On the flipside, carrier thuse far utilize "CV" prefixes, harking back to early 20th century nomenclature. And on the third hoof, we have the "ARMD" prefixes too, from the superawesomecool tactical CG display in episode 1...

Mark

[Morpheus]

The term Battle-Carrier were also used in late WW2 when the Japanese Navy refitted an Ise class battleship to incorporated a flightdeck on it stern.

To partially compensate for the loss of carrier strength at the Battle of Midway, Navy Aircraft Department began plans to convert the Ise-class battleships to full-sized aircraft carriers each carrying 54 planes. This concept was abandoned due to lack of time and resources and a hybrid battleship/carrier concept was adopted

So I agree that NMC can be classified into Battle Carrier (plenty of big guns with the ability to carry its own valk squadron), however the Uraga class seems to be under gunned to be classified into Escort Battle Carrier.

Quarter can also be classified into Battle Carrier since it literally carried a carrier and a BFG I wonder if Quarter could carry two BFG or two carrier at the same time.

[Mr March]

Most of the ships in Macross look underarmed without turrets. The ARMD (DYRL version), the Uraga Class and the Guantanamo Class actually appear weaponless. We know they aren't from the official literature on these vessels, but you'd never know they were armed to look at them. I suppose the saving grace is the fact that the creators of Macross are known for their love of retractable armaments on warships. In particular, retractable missile launchers are seen on warships in both SDF Macross and Macross 7. And though it has turrets as well, the ARMD (TV Version) has those big, hidden missile launchers on the top deck.

I really prefer to see turrets. Nothing says firepower like a big gun or missile launcher that you can see on the hull of a ship. The turrets on the New Macross Class and Macross Quarter in the Frontier series were both very welcome sights. They looked really good in action too. Now I'm feeling the urge to watch the final episode again

Edited October 8, 2008 by Mr March

[Mark Nguyen]

Actually, if you think about it, "Escort Battle Carrier" for the Uraga may not be so inappropriate. Evidence is limited, but I don't think we've ever really seen an Uraga in anything but a defensive role. It's either escorting New Macross fleets, or defending Earth. In the odd occasion where we see a task force independent of a main fleet, Uragas are nowhere to be found:

-The exploratory fleet carrying that Gunter guy, in a M7 "Plus" segment

-The scout fleet sent from the M7 fleet to check out Varauta

-The small fleet sent to rescue of the Kaitos and Dulfim in MF

-Isamu's assignment at the top of Macross Plus (unless you think the model on the CO's desk is the ship they're on)

And so on...

Mark

[d3v]

I've been wondering about the anti-aircraft defense of the NMC class though. In the last episode (of Frontier), not only is Canaria able t land her VB-6 on it so that she can shoot out it's head (which I assume knocked it's sensors out giving Battle Frontier the chance to close in and sink it), but earlier on, Alto was able to not only get close, but get inside it.

[Mark Nguyen]

Welcome to the world of anime, bub. Shooting down mecha with AA just istn' cool, so basically ANYONE in ANY anime will NEVER get shot down by simple AA fire, unless at least a secondary character is manning the guns.

Mark

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Welcome to the world of anime, bub. Shooting down mecha with AA just istn' cool, so basically ANYONE in ANY anime will NEVER get shot down by simple AA fire, unless at least a secondary character is manning the guns.

Mark

Not just anime. All big screen and TV capital ships have this problem. Look at the Executor from Star Wars.

If a 20th Century CIWS can hit a supersonic missile, an Overtech AA shooting lightspeed bolts would wipe any small manned flying object at extreme range.

[Mark Nguyen]

Ah, but then you have to believe that a CIWS can ACTUALLY shoot down a supersonic missile.

Mark

[Mr March]

Aside from the Macross ships and the odd main-character-crewed vessel, most of the warships in the Macross franchise are not shown doing much of anything other than exploding. Attempting to discern the function/role of a UNS/NUNS warship based on what the ships do in the Macross anime isn't going to get us much of anywhere. The human fleets might as well be "combat wallpaper" for all the effect they have on the story, plot or characters

Regarding Canaria's VB-6 Konig Monster charge, Canaria's VB-6 was struck by Anti-Aircraft (Anti-Mecha/Spacecraft?) fire, it just wasn't enough to stop her. Keep in mind this is the heavily armored "I-can-survive-near-hits-from-reaction-warheads" Monster we're talking about; it's not going to be destroyed as easily as a Valkyrie. Besides, the battle was a furball and it's clear the Battle Galaxy's cannons were engaging a bunch of targets including the Monster.

[Shaka_Z]

I've been wondering about the anti-aircraft defense of the NMC class though. In the last episode (of Frontier), not only is Canaria able t land her VB-6 on it so that she can shoot out it's head (which I assume knocked it's sensors out giving Battle Frontier the chance to close in and sink it), but earlier on, Alto was able to not only get close, but get inside it.

we already know that the NMC is heavily dependent on fighter cover for protection against enemy fighters, with destroids scurrying all over for close-in point defense. in the specific case of Battle Galaxy, its' v-9 ghosts were being swatted down hard by the time alto penetrated it to rescue Ranka. I also noticed that Galaxy had NO destroids wandering the hull for close-in defense, whereas both BF and the quarter pounder had them in spades.

As for the monster, remember that it has a very annoying (to the enemy) habit of being able to just wade through flak - even going so far as being able to completely ignore most of the weapons systems available to CF valks and ghosts. canaria did take some hits directly from Galaxy however, which cost the monster an arm and a leg. didnt stop it though.

[Shaka_Z]

Ah, but then you have to believe that a CIWS can ACTUALLY shoot down a supersonic missile.

Mark

I dont see why a CIWS gun couldn't do so. it is all dependent on how early the control radar can detect the incoming, and how quickly and accurately the gun can adjust its' aim, which shouldnt be too hard considering that the rate of angular change for in inbound missile wouldnt be very high. it would certainly help if the CIWS was firing hypersonic rounds, or was the type of gun (I forget the actual name) that was developed in the last few years that can fire thousands of rounds from parallel barrels.

[Shaka_Z]

Not just anime. All big screen and TV capital ships have this problem. Look at the Executor from Star Wars.

If a 20th Century CIWS can hit a supersonic missile, an Overtech AA shooting lightspeed bolts would wipe any small manned flying object at extreme range.

hey... the Executor and other ISDs were in fact shooting down fighters on their own. remember that the furball was happening all around them and their own fighters were all up in it too, so their AA fire was a bit on the restrained side. not to mention that the fighter that kamikazed the executor was an A-Wing. a ship barely bigger than the pilot and droid that fly it, easily and by FAR the quickest, fastest and most agile starfighter of the day (yes it was... there is no debate on this), that was flying even more erratically than it normally would because it had been torn up by the shrapnel from an X-wing that had exploded right behind it, and was being piloted by a guy who knew he was gonna die.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Morpheus]

Welcome to the world of anime, bub. Shooting down mecha with AA just istn' cool, so basically ANYONE in ANY anime will NEVER get shot down by simple AA fire, unless at least a secondary character is manning the guns.

Mark

Vajra gunship CIWS manage to damage Alto VF-25 when he rush inside to save Luca.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

hey... the Executor and other ISDs were in fact shooting down fighters on their own. remember that the furball was happening all around them and their own fighters were all up in it too, so their AA fire was a bit on the restrained side. not to mention that the fighter that kamikazed the executor was an A-Wing. a ship barely bigger than the pilot and droid that fly it, easily and by FAR the quickest, fastest and most agile starfighter of the day (yes it was... there is no debate on this), that was flying even more erratically than it normally would because it had been torn up by the shrapnel from an X-wing that had exploded right behind it, and was being piloted by a guy who knew he was gonna die.

Bah! Those are plot devices to mask the fact that its just UNCOOL for big guns to take out big ships from long range on screen. The volume of AA fire from the 18km long Executor was pathetic! WW2 footage of Destroyers show more flak being thrown out. The Executor shouldn't even need fighters to cover it. It should have tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of beam weaponry taking out entire A Wing groups at long range.

[d3v]

I dont see why a CIWS gun couldn't do so. it is all dependent on how early the control radar can detect the incoming, and how quickly and accurately the gun can adjust its' aim, which shouldnt be too hard considering that the rate of angular change for in inbound missile wouldnt be very high. it would certainly help if the CIWS was firing hypersonic rounds, or was the type of gun (I forget the actual name) that was developed in the last few years that can fire thousands of rounds from parallel barrels.

I believe you're referring to Metal Storm.

If there's anything specific I've been wondering about, it's that most of the AA fire was ineffective fire from guns. You'd think they'd have something like the RIM-116 SeaRAM that would be spamming missiles alongside AA gunfire.

Edited October 9, 2008 by d3v

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Never thought of Metal Storm as something very revolutionary. I mean, its just a scaled up Pom-Pom isn't it?

My point on Sci-Fi AA fire is that with lightspeed AA bolts and computer control(and unless the fighter was zipping along changing vectors every other nanosecond - something we don't see on screen), its just a matter of putting the mouse pointer (again AI controlled) on the target and BOOM!

The major spanner in the works would be if the fire control computer can't "see" the target due to ECM or other stealth measures. But again, these are never addressed on screen as we always see the cap ship being aware of the incoming fighters on their holoscreens or something.

Anyway, back on Macross topics. Why would a cap ship really need mecha to defend against mecha if it can put its main cannon on 'spread/diffuse' mode?

Edited October 9, 2008 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[RedWolf]

Never thought of Metal Storm as something very revolutionary. I mean, its just a scaled up Pom-Pom isn't it?

My point on Sci-Fi AA fire is that with lightspeed AA bolts and computer control(and unless the fighter was zipping along changing vectors every other nanosecond - something we don't see on screen), its just a matter of putting the mouse pointer (again AI controlled) on the target and BOOM!

The major spanner in the works would be if the fire control computer can't "see" the target due to ECM or other stealth measures. But again, these are never addressed on screen as we always see the cap ship being aware of the incoming fighters on their holoscreens or something.

Anyway, back on Macross topics. Why would a cap ship really need mecha to defend against mecha if it can put its main cannon on 'spread/diffuse' mode?

Energy, it has been shown in Macross 7 that once the main gun is fired they barely have enough energy to fold.

Same thing with the original Macross, energy requirements competing between the main cannon and the PPB system.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Against mecha, I suppose you could tone down the 'concentration/intensity' of the beam even in diffuse mode.

And if a 1.6 km long gunship can carry enough 'capacitors' to fire a main gun say once a min, a 4.0km long battleship (esp. with the cube effect), could carry several times the 'capacitors' to fire once every 10 secs? The coverage for a 4km ship isn't bigger then a 1.6km ship since you are firing in space at long range. And because you are shooting mecha, you don't need to scale up the gun for the bigger ship.

[d3v]

Anyway, back on Macross topics. Why would a cap ship really need mecha to defend against mecha if it can put its main cannon on 'spread/diffuse' mode?

Collateral damage and efficiency. Something like that would possibly hit friendlies as well as any non-combatants in the area. Notice how IRL, most militaries are very much focused not on making weapons that can hit more things, but on weapons that can accurately hit one thing hidden in a field of many things. Also, a shot like that would have alot of energy going nowhere and hitting nothing (if you're lucky, if you're not it hits a friendly or some unfortunate civilian) and that's not an efficient use of your limited resources.