In Defense of Macross II

[RedWolf]

but back to MacII, I always felt the Macross and Macross cannons were the only good ship designs in the show. everything else was mediocre at best, but I always loved the Mac Cannon, it was pointless and yet beautiful at the same time.

and as for the SDF-1, they turned the whole damn thing into 1 big gun. if SK ever actually worked something from macII into official cannon, I want it to be that.

Indeed. I'm including those two in my fanfiction universe only that they are not in the side of angels.

[Kronnang Dunn]

for me the vf 2ss has the best mecha design!!!

Love that valk design. Even if is not from Kawamori... I like the hi-tech/starfighter look of its nose and cockpit a lot...

Edited October 8, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[thegunny]

While it's not my favorite Macross anime, I've always liked Macross II.

Gorgeous mecha designs, some good BGM and songs, Mikimoto chracter designs and good fight scenes. What's not to like?

Graham

So true.

Macross II was okay, but it lacks Kawamori's touch that made SDF:M, M+, M7, M0, and even Macross Frontier popular.

Which makes it even better. Sick of hearing that no one else can design mecha.

[Zinjo]

Yeah that's one of the main problem with Macross II IMO.. it really felt like "more of the same". Not bad really but... well, like it of not Kawamori has always pushed Macross into different directions every time... that's part of the the charm IMO.

Macross II though could definitly have used more episode and better writting. Some part are just laughable (The "love realisation" between Sylvie and Hibiki... god that's just ridiculous ). It has some great concepts and thematics (the Marduk, military censorship so on).... but none of them really well developped.

I guess if I'd have to sum up Macross II it would be : great plot, poor execution.

(And technically it was really mediocre for a 92 OAV and very uneven as well...Episode 5 is the only one that stands out)

-Sergorn

Well said.

I've always felt that the series was meant to be longer, but budgetary restraints and poor acceptance by the market killed it. Too many threads started and never finished.

The story was rushed as if the writers just didn't know how to distill the story to it's most important

core in light of the shrinking episode count.

The premise is something that really appealed to me and yes it's execution was quite poor.

I do agree the Metal Siren was the most uninspired mecha design I've seen in a Macross production. At least the VF-2SS was a hybrid of Kawamori's VF-1 and VF-4 which made it much more redeemable and quite innovative at the time.

The SDF-1 "upgrade" was very disappointing, along with that iconic ship's destruction. Totally unecessary.

The animation quality definitely suffered with Bandai essentially pulling the financial plug on it half way through, which is essentially Bandai's way of cancelling the show (the Japanese don't suddenly drop a show from production when it is cancelled, they typically give the producers "notice" that in X number of episodes the show will end).

[daflip702]

A series about a douchebag reporter versus a series about a hippy obsessed with singing. I'd rather watch Macross 7 with its up and downs and cringe worthy moments, than Macross II where I keep hoping Hibiki will die when I know he won't.

The only good things about Macross II were Ishtar (before the haircut) and the music, particularly the opening song.

At least Hibiki got a license to fly a Valk. I swear, if I heard basara sing in his Valk one more time Imma b*tch slap him with his F*ing guitar. Anyways, MacII will always be dissed....particularly since it's not SK. I like it because it has a hottie lead protagonist that pilots a valk, Uber fitted Macross Canon, a Metal Siren valk that is way damn badass that it could impregnate your girlfriend, A songstress for the badguys, and oh yeah NO BASARA.

To anyone not liking MacII because it's not canon: Get over it....it's been made

They should get a mod to compile all of the MACII debates.

[macrossvf-1msx]

Macross Cannon

Metal Siren

all good

does any one like the UN Spacey HQ

Edited October 9, 2008 by macrossvf-1msx

[emajnthis]

I agree with DA, the dub is unbearable, the sub is actually not bad at all. You can tell the first four episodes were meant to open a longer tale but with their budget getting cut the series fell flat in those last two wrap up episodes. I think the series would've been better received if the Macross wasn't modified and subsequently destroyed. The mech designs were fantastic and if Bandai would have exploited those designs with merchandise the series probably would have been funded, but since it's not Gundam, Bandai isn't selling it (where's my Eureka 7 merchandise Bandai!?).

[TheLoneWolf]

I've always felt that the series was meant to be longer, but budgetary restraints and poor acceptance by the market killed it. Too many threads started and never finished.

The story was rushed as if the writers just didn't know how to distill the story to it's most important

core in light of the shrinking episode count.

Macross II was always planned as a 6 episode OVA. The debut release of vol.1 (1992) on laserdisc shows the upcoming release dates for the remaining 5 episodes. There is no "Episode 7 - TBA" or "Episode 8 - TBA." Also, LA Hero confirmed that MII was supposed to be 6 episodes since it was believed that short OVA's were the trend in 1992. If the story seems rushed, then it's due to the writing.

[Gepernich]

Well, here's my take on Macross II, both plus and minus.

Plus:

The VF-2SS, especially with the SAP packs on it, was very nice. And I did quite like the Marduk version of the Regult, with the conragrav drive. (What can I say, I'm a Pod Head). My favorite as far as the ships has to actually be Lord Ingues' command base. Not only a planetary converging beam like the DYRL version of Bodolza's base, but that wierd weapon that could basically throw heat balls through fold space

As far as plusses in the plot, I liked the whole Marduk concept. Originally I thought they were basically the Protoculture, before it was declared an alternate universe. (I actually think if they ever decided to make Macross II canon, that would be the best way to handle the Marduk.

Minus:

Remember that Ingues Base? It got hit by at least 4 super-dimension beam weapons, (SDF-1 Macross, 2 of the UN Spacy Macross Cannon ships, Feff's Marduk ship) doing basically....nothing.

So just how did the conventional weapons of the Marduk Fleet manage to bring it down? After all, the Marduk fleet did not seem anywhere near as large as Bodolza's Main Fleet.

And then the Plot....just about all of it.

A little clarification though. It's not that the plot was bad, it's just that so many subplots were basically compressed into such a small time slot that none could be really given justice. It's like if they compressed the original Macross series or Macross 7 into 6 episodes.

That about sums up Macross II in my opinion.

[Keith]

Macross II's main problem is that it's nearly 100% recycled DYRL plotline, without a TV series to fill on all the little story gaps & summaries. DYRL works because we know the story of the TV series. Macross II has nothing to support it at all.

As for the Marduk, I always took it that they were another Earth like race that came across the Zentradi, but instead of cohabitating them, just enslaved & stole their technology. The only way it would even remotely work as canon would be to take things that way. And of course to have the Earth there actually be a way far out distant isolated colony fleet.

Strange thing is, Macross Frontier goes a long way towards reconciling Macross II into the canon. We now have the NUNS (originated in II), privativzed Valkyrie production, and the existence of multiple Macross class ships. Sure the Cutlure Park is a little wonky, but who's to say crazed colonists wouldn't want to recreate some of Earth's lost treasures.

As strange as it is, and as one of the bigger Macross II detractors of the past 15+ years, I now see a big window Kawamori has opened up to potentically accept Macross II. The OVA still has its share of problems, but not nearly as many continuity problems as it used to.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Keith

[Zinjo]

Macross II was always planned as a 6 episode OVA. The debut release of vol.1 (1992) on laserdisc shows the upcoming release dates for the remaining 5 episodes. There is no "Episode 7 - TBA" or "Episode 8 - TBA." Also, LA Hero confirmed that MII was supposed to be 6 episodes since it was believed that short OVA's were the trend in 1992. If the story seems rushed, then it's due to the writing.

Exactly how are you so sure? The producer said so or just a magazine ad for 6 episodes?

In an OVA series, if the first one doesn't sell well, and the second is in the can, then why wouldn't Bandai pull the plug on what they expect to be a flop (cut your losses, so to speak)? The production values of the subsequent episodes certainly are not on par for a series intended to "only" be 6 episodes long, the budget would have been set and the episodes would have been made according to what resources were available for the allotted money. Bad writing is one thing, inept writing is another. The writing staff had members from SDFM on it and they already proved their pedigre.

Setting up a love triangle between Silvie, Hibiki and Nexx and then abandoning it is not something even a bad writer leaves hanging. The "bad" writing came with trying to condense a longer story into a limited number of episodes. Now the set up was in place by ep 2 and the ball drop came when they didn't resolve it, even with throw away dialogue. I find it highly doubtful there wasn't a plan to deal with that thread ultimately.

It's easy for the Kawamori fanboys to dismiss the show because SK wasn't involved for whatever pet reason, however Mac 7 is not much better until the second season when the actual meat of the story gets started.

It isn't the best Macross ever produced, however it has always appeared to me that the story was truncated and as such became rather disjointed in several areas. The poor execution IMO was the very beginning, where the audiences were bored by the introduction of Ishtar alone in her chamber, followed by Hibiki's introduction as a tabloid reporter. Nothing to hook the audience at all. They tried to be "artistic" rather then following the fundementals of visual story telling.

"Hook the audience within the first 10 minutes or you've lost them..."

[Zinjo]

Macross II's main problem is that it's nearly 100% recycled DYRL plotline, without a TV series to fill on all the little story gaps & summaries. DYRL works because we know the story of the TV series. Macross II has nothing to support it at all.

Well Keith you and I have debated this point at length before and I don't buy it still.

As for the Marduk, I always took it that they were another Earth like race that came across the Zentradi, but instead of cohabitating them, just enslaved & stole their technology. The only way it would even remotely work as canon would be to take things that way. And of course to have the Earth there actually be a way far out distant isolated colony fleet.

Highly unlikely in my opinion, unless the Mardook possessed PC weaponry and the ability to brainwash their troops, ala the PD.

Strange thing is, Macross Frontier goes a long way towards reconciling Macross II into the canon. We now have the NUNS (originated in II), privativzed Valkyrie production, and the existence of multiple Macross class ships. Sure the Cutlure Park is a little wonky, but who's to say crazed colonists wouldn't want to recreate some of Earth's lost treasures.

As strange as it is, and as one of the bigger Macross II detractors of the past 15+ years, I now see a big window Kawamori has opened up to potentically accept Macross II. The OVA still has its share of problems, but not nearly as many continuity problems as it used to.

This we do agree on. Modified, it could be shoe horned in, as it was originally written, there is no way.

[Agent ONE]

Macross 2 was AWESOME when it came out.. We had nothing else and I was STARVED for more Macross.

[Sergorn]

Well said.

I've always felt that the series was meant to be longer, but budgetary restraints and poor acceptance by the market killed it. Too many threads started and never finished.

The story was rushed as if the writers just didn't know how to distill the story to it's most important

core in light of the shrinking episode count.

The premise is something that really appealed to me and yes it's execution was quite poor.

Yeah I dunno if the series has been cut short or not... but it definitly could have used more episode. It feels as if the writer just couldn't find a proper way to fit all of the story in the 6 allowed episodes. I've always felt the story and premise of Macross II would have worked if they had actually made it a TV Series instead of a short OAV series. The story could have worked in 6 episodes, but not in the way it was presented - here it feels like they're trying to cram as much story as in SDFM, while using a similiar build-up... but with only 6 episodes that just doesn't work.

Aww well, I still enjoy it (and I hope for a remastered released of it), but it's a real shame to see such wasted potential.

-Sergorn

[Keith]

Hmm, a tuned up Macross II for the 30th anniv of Macross? Why not. A few dialogue changes, maybe some animation fixes, stranger things have happened.

[Keith]

Well Keith you and I have debated this point at length before and I don't buy it still.

And yet it's still there, plot point for plot point, nearly scene for scene.

Highly unlikely in my opinion, unless the Mardook possessed PC weaponry and the ability to brainwash their troops, ala the PD.

They had PC weaponry, the "ALUS," their Macross that allowed them to defeat the Zentradi, as for brainwashing, all, they'd really need to do is alter whatever pre-loading education system is used in Zentradi cloning.

This we do agree on. Modified, it could be shoe horned in, as it was originally written, there is no way.

The number of necessary changes are far fewer than they used to be. The whacked Macross design can be relegated to a one off varient, etc.

[Zinjo]

And yet it's still there, plot point for plot point, nearly scene for scene.

And Guantlet goes down...

Prove it!

Plot point for plot point...

[TheLoneWolf]

Exactly how are you so sure? The producer said so or just a magazine ad for 6 episodes?

Sigh...

After the episode 1 credits roll on the 1992 laserdisc, the screen displays (roughly translated from Japanese):

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Super Dimension Fortress Macross II Release Schedule

[1] Available Now (Contact)

[2] June 21 (Ishtar)

[3] August 21 (Festival)

[4] September 24 (Mardook Disorder)

[5] October 22 (Station Break)

[6] November 21 (Sing Along)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, I'm looking at my TV screen as I'm translating this. This text appears right after the credits roll. That's it, nothing else. There is no mention of any further episodes. I don't know how much more official it can get.

Also corroborating this, in a 1993 issue of Animerica a fan wrote in:

"Also, why is Macross II only six episodes long? That sounds way to short."

The editor's response:

"According to L.A. Hero, the length of the Macross II series reflects the current trend in the Japanese anime industry towards shorter OAV series."

So can we now please bury this "Macross II was cut short!" urban legend along with the "Cursed Mummy onboard the Titanic" myth on snopes.com?

[Zinjo]

Sigh...

After the episode 1 credits roll on the 1992 laserdisc, the screen displays (roughly translated from Japanese):

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Super Dimension Fortress Macross II Release Schedule

[1] Available Now (Contact)

[2] June 21 (Ishtar)

[3] August 21 (Festival)

[4] September 24 (Mardook Disorder)

[5] October 22 (Station Break)

[6] November 21 (Sing Along)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, I'm looking at my TV screen as I'm translating this. This text appears right after the credits roll. That's it, nothing else. There is no mention of any further episodes. I don't know how much more official it can get.

Also corroborating this, in a 1993 issue of Animerica a fan wrote in:

"Also, why is Macross II only six episodes long? That sounds way to short."

The editor's response:

"According to L.A. Hero, the length of the Macross II series reflects the current trend in the Japanese anime industry towards shorter OAV series."

So can we now please bury this "Macross II was cut short!" urban legend along with the "Cursed Mummy onboard the Titanic" myth on snopes.com?

Cool.

Thanks for the references.

[terry the lone wolf]

Macross II's main problem is that it's nearly 100% recycled DYRL plotline, without a TV series to fill on all the little story gaps & summaries. DYRL works because we know the story of the TV series. Macross II has nothing to support it at all.

As for the Marduk, I always took it that they were another Earth like race that came across the Zentradi, but instead of cohabitating them, just enslaved & stole their technology. The only way it would even remotely work as canon would be to take things that way. And of course to have the Earth there actually be a way far out distant isolated colony fleet.

Strange thing is, Macross Frontier goes a long way towards reconciling Macross II into the canon. We now have the NUNS (originated in II), privativzed Valkyrie production, and the existence of multiple Macross class ships. Sure the Cutlure Park is a little wonky, but who's to say crazed colonists wouldn't want to recreate some of Earth's lost treasures.

As strange as it is, and as one of the bigger Macross II detractors of the past 15+ years, I now see a big window Kawamori has opened up to potentically accept Macross II. The OVA still has its share of problems, but not nearly as many continuity problems as it used to.

Here's another ode to Macross 2, the fact that Frontier had two singers and one singer had powers to control another form of life. I know Wendy Ryder had a very small part in Mac 2 but wasn't Sheryl originally not going to be that big of a character too? I also see similarities with Ishtar and Ranka with their singing abilities. Now Mac Plus had two singers too but I just see some more parallels with Mac 2.

Edited October 12, 2008 by terry the lone wolf

[anime52k8]

Here's another ode to Macross 2, the fact that Frontier had two singers and one singer had powers to control another form of life. I know Wendy Ryder had a very small part in Mac 2 but wasn't Sheryl originally not going to be that big of a character too? I also see similarities with Ishtar and Ranka with their singing abilities. Now Mac Plus had two singers too but I just see some more parallels with Mac 2.

I really think it's just a coincidence.

not every little similarity between one show and another is a direct homage or reference to the earlier show, especially not MacII.

[d3v]

I've always liked Mou Ichido Love You (and Yakusoku ain't half bad either).

Edited October 12, 2008 by d3v

[Sumdumgai]

I really think it's just a coincidence.

not every little similarity between one show and another is a direct homage or reference to the earlier show, especially not MacII.

I agree with that. I also don't see how technology goes from what we see in Macross Frontier to what we see in Macross II. You go from the VF-25 back to VF-1 and VF-2 designations? From a NMC battle section and Macross Quarter to a Macross-ish class ship with Zentraedi gunships attached to it?

If you're going to stick it into the Macross universe, I'd do like with DYRL. A fictional sequel to DYRL, because there was so much money waiting to be made that they made a short series or movie based in the future. It probably didn't do as well as studio executives had hoped. But the music stayed popular, which is why we hear it in Macross 7.

[Nexx Stalker]

And yet it's still there, plot point for plot point, nearly scene for scene.

I really don't see those similarities "plot point for plot point" that you do see.

[RedWolf]

Too bad we don't have much accurate size info on the Macross Cannon but crap it is big.

[Macross007]

Too bad we don't have much accurate size info on the Macross Cannon but crap it is big.

Why having a bridge that big ?

[RedWolf]

Three words: Meltran Bridge Bunnies

[d3v]

Three words: Meltran Bridge Bunnies

That my friend, would be a bridge filled with EPIC WIN!

[Agent ONE]

Too bad we don't have much accurate size info on the Macross Cannon but crap it is big.

....

I think the Macross Cannon is actually smaller than the Macross. That picture must be from some BS role playing game.

[jenius]

I also thought it was smaller.

[RedWolf]

Actually it was the RPG books that got it wrong that is around 488 meters.

Here is a pic based on perspective, and the fact that those are Nupetiets....

I used vanishing points to determine the size of the parts.

The pic is 10 pixels per meter, and includes the SDF-1 for scale.

This makes the Macross cannons roughly 5400 meters in length, while in Ship Mode.

The image shows 5360

Storm Attacker, or whatever they call it, for these ships would take me a bit longer to make an image for.

I used the raw image of the Nupetiets, rather than the UN Spacy refits, but the size should be roughly the same.

Note that the thinner front bow seems to be removed from the Nupetiets in the "arms" in all the source images available.

5400m in cruiser mode eh?

That's pretty close to the estimates I made after taking a closer look at the screen captures from Macross II for my website's mecha files about two years ago. I took some captures and crunched some numbers comparing the known features of the Macross Cannon to the Nupetiet Vergnitz, and then backtracking to the other visible ships in the screen captures. I came up with the ship being almost exactly ten times the size that Kevin Siembieda cited in the RPG (488m), setting the size at around 4950m. It looks like he made similar errors with the Gloria and Heracles as well.

As far as the performance of the Macross Cannons, you can calculate just how punishing they were in the early moves of the battle. I'll go back to the DVD and double-check this, but if I remember right, they stated that the Mardook fleet was about 2000 ships, and that the four Macross cannons destroyed 60% of the enemy ships (1200 vessels). One simple division equation later, you've got an average kill ratio of 300 enemy ships brought down by each Macross Cannon per volley.

Even Mr. March lists it at least 4000 meters in length.

Edited October 14, 2008 by RedWolf

[Morpheus]

The good old Macross Cannon, probably the biggest Macross class ever if M2 is canon. Too bad the Macross Cannon are very fragile, as I remember one ship exploded during firing (due to the damage done by the marduk power armor I think) and the other were destroyed by Marduk rain of death.

[Oihan]

I don't know why it is but some people seem to insist that Macross II is nothing but a rehash of Macross DYRL? Is there a new race in Macross DYRL? that we're introduced to? No. Where's the news reporter, as a main character, in Macross DYRL?? Where's the new fighter in Macross DYRL?? Where are the Macross Cannon Class type ships in Macross DYRL?? Where's the Zentraedi/Meltrandi emulator in Macross DYRL?? Macross Plus had a 'damsel in distress'...as did Macross Zero, Macross Frontier, and Macross II. Macross II had Dennis Lone die; Macross Plus had Guld; Macross Frontier had Michael; and Macross Zero had DD Ivanov and Nora Polyansky die...all of which were in some kind of battle. Are they all rehashes of SDF Macross or Macross DYRL? because of such things? Just because a story uses some of the same plot devices found in another story, doesn't mean that it's a rehash. We may as well call Macross Frontier a rehash of SDF Macross since it used a lot of the same plot devices. Macross II is NOT a rehash.

As for the "sudden love realization." It was apparent to me that the two started to bond together half way through the show. Just the way they started to interact with each other (as compared to how they were earlier in the show) should have been a big enough hint for the audience, in my opinion. There's the scene where Sylvie lets Ishtar and Hibiki go after she catches them on the Macross. There's the Culture Park scene.... Then there are the scenes where Sylvie helps Hibiki rescue Ishtar (especially these scenes). Just to recall a few.... I believe they all help lead up to the eventual kiss (hope I haven't ruined part of the ending for anyone who hasn't seen II yet).

"Moo Ichido Love You" is a fantastic song...I can't get enough of it and a lot of the music from Macross II. d3v, if you ever get the chance to, check out the song "Soko ni Aru no ga Mirai dakara." It's a good one too in my opinion. Even though it was never played in Macross II, it can be found on the second Macross II OST. It was played in an episode (or two?) in Macross 7 though; I don't remember which episodes. To this day I still wonder why it was never played in Macross II. I'm a real sucker for BGM/easy listening tracks too. "Ark of Alus," "Futari," "Kyoukou Toppa," and "Kizuna" (all found on the Macross II OSTs) are some of my all-time favorites...especially "Futari."

Someone else mentioned the blowing up of the Macross. Yeah, I was actually shocked (decultcha!!) by the destruction of it...but I believe it helped put a bigger emphasis of the message it was trying to get across. Was I the only one that got goosebumps throughout the entire show?

[fanboy]Macross II 0wnZ!!![/fanboy]

Edit: Grammar.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Oihan

[Zinjo]

I agree with that. I also don't see how technology goes from what we see in Macross Frontier to what we see in Macross II. You go from the VF-25 back to VF-1 and VF-2 designations? From a NMC battle section and Macross Quarter to a Macross-ish class ship with Zentraedi gunships attached to it?

Actually that is a common fallacy. The Macross Cannons had Zentreadi type Macross cannons for sure, but they weren't attached gunships (no propulsion sections - the graphic shown earlier is a cut and paste job that doesn't show how the ship was really constructed.).

If you're going to stick it into the Macross universe, I'd do like with DYRL. A fictional sequel to DYRL, because there was so much money waiting to be made that they made a short series or movie based in the future. It probably didn't do as well as studio executives had hoped. But the music stayed popular, which is why we hear it in Macross 7.

There are several ways to shoehorn the series into the Nue continuity, but as an "in-universe" movie is the only way to keep its story intact as it is.

Someone else mentioned the blowing up of the Macross. Yeah, I was actually shocked (decultcha!!) by the destruction of it...but I believe it helped put a bigger emphasis of the message it was trying to get across. Was I the only one that got goosebumps throughout the entire show?

I found it totally unecessary. The fact that the characters bought into the idea that the ship had some super powers and found out that it really didn't was message enough. That the power of the Alus was not in a legendary ship, but in the power of songs of the emulators to inspire their people to resist their slavery to Ingues...

Edited October 14, 2008 by Zinjo

[d3v]

The good old Macross Cannon, probably the biggest Macross class ever if M2 is canon. Too bad the Macross Cannon are very fragile, as I remember one ship exploded during firing (due to the damage done by the marduk power armor I think) and the other were destroyed by Marduk rain of death.

Makes you wonder what if N.U.N.S. circa 2059 actually deemed a ship with that size and firepower necessary and did build one.