Has Humanity truly surpassed Protoculture?

[Keith]

Except, Basara is by default the pinnacle of anima spiritia and it's successful realization. He's the very best, it's part of what embodies his character. Besides, where they all together failed, Basara succeeded and made the Protodeviln sing his song!

FIRE!!!

Quoted for truth!

[VFTF1]

Yeah, but Basara never made the Protodevilin give back all the people whose bodies they'd taken over - which really really bugs me and makes me sad about the ending of the series... Or at least more sober. I mean - it's amazing what he did - but it's not perfect.

Perfection would have been bringing back all those people who were lost.

But I guess that's just life. It's stupid that so many people have to die before people in general learn simple things like that it's better to sing together than too shoot at eachother.

Until human beings can get over THAT hurdle - then they will always be threatened with self-destruction just like the Protoculture was.

Besides - let's not be so quick to pretend we know all of protoculture history just because we saw some carvings in a Pyramid, or heard a little bit of Rhetoric from the Birdman.

There's stuff we don't know.

Pete

[BadTroll]

give back all the people whose bodies they'd taken over

Who would that be exactly? Only Gepilnitch, right? Was the guy (Ivano Günter) even alive at that point though? Wasn't the body at the end basically a new body formed after he had combined with his true body and realized Basara's message? I'd have to question whether or not there was even an Ivano Günter by that point to be returned.

[RedWolf]

Yeah, but Basara never made the Protodevilin give back all the people whose bodies they'd taken over - which really really bugs me and makes me sad about the ending of the series... Or at least more sober. I mean - it's amazing what he did - but it's not perfect.

Then the Protodevlin will have to give back the Evil bodies as well. Since they also possessed their bodies.

One of the commanders among the fleet brings up a theory that Gigille acted the way he did is because of what could be left of the Blue Rhinoceros platoon leader.

[BadTroll]

Then the Protodevlin will have to give back the Evil bodies as well.

God forbid those become weapons under someones control.

[VFTF1]

Well - look - that the original possesors of those bodies "did not exist" at that point is irrelevent - the fact is that there was no real memorial given to those people, nor were they thought of - in fact, they were kind of forgotten - treated like what I would call "plot fodder." Plot fodder is worse even than cannon fodder, because cannon fodder usually serves to die so that you feel sad and see that war is sad. PLOT FODDER is the worse possible category a character can fall into - he exists to die so that his carcass can be possessed by the plot device.

This has always been my one and only real gripe with Macross 7 and it's happy pappy ending.

Pete

[BadTroll]

Never heard the term plot fodder. Did you make it up? *Curious*

[RedWolf]

God forbid those become weapons under someones control.

Colonel Barton in Mylene Beat tried to make one but it didn't turn out as he'd like.

It became sentient with a liking for Mylene.

He hid it from Macross 7's joint government. (Which sort of explains how the government in Macross 7 is different from Macross Frontier.)

From the looks of it Barton was using a version of Colonel Bacelon's Mind System. (UN Spacy Zentradi revolt conspiracist in Macross 7 Trash.)

[Keith]

It was established that after a certain period of possession, i.e. prolonged posession, the Protodevelin could no longer seperate themselves from their host body. Basically, it was too late for Gunther & Gigile's host, otherwise various Anima Spiritia exposures would have knocked them out of those bodies (as Gabil was knocked out of Gamlin). Same goes for the Evil bodies, it was long since no longer possible to "give them back."

Sivil only possesed Akiko for a limited time, so she was safe. The real question however, was Gabil someone who had been posessed? Or were Gabil/Glabil originally designed to have a "remote unit."

[s001]

I just got one question.

Did the protoculture people know about the vajra?

[Gubaba]

I just got one question.

Did the protoculture people know about the vajra?

Watch episode 25 of Macross Frontier. They talk about it there.

[Zinjo]

Except, Basara is by default the pinnacle of anima spiritia and it's successful realization. He's the very best, it's part of what embodies his character. Besides, where they all together failed, Basara succeeded and made the Protodeviln sing his song!

You are making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that pacifying the PD was the PC goal. All indicators show that the GOAL was to stop them, which resulted in their imprisonment. We get no sense that the PC intended to "free" them of their hunger, they didn't have the time or the opportunity to learn what these beings needed. They were under attack by massive PD forces and needed to stop the devastating war.

To assume that the "realization" of the anima spiritia soldier was to free the PD is based on no guantifyable proof or record. In effect, the Anima Spiritia soldiers did indeed succeed. They stopped the advance of the Proto Devlin, which appeared to be their only mission.

Basara faced off against avatars and mind controlled soldiers initially and when the fleet started to battle the "actual" PD themselves, they found they were in much greater peril than ever before. Most certainly outmatched on every level. If Gigile and Sivil hadn't embraced the idea of self generating spiritia, Basara and his band would have been either consumed or destroyed by the final battle.

I think you need to stop venerating a plot device character and see him as he really was, a catalyst do develop Mylene and Gamlin. Though typically a plot device character is not the protagonist but an antagonist in a story. The Glipernicht was for the most part, such a character (in that he didn't change or grow), until the end of the series.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Zinjo

[s001]

I'm still trying to figure out episode 25. I mean, too much stuff for just one episode!!!

I guess they considered the vajra too dangerous. And decided to completely forget about them.

am I right?

[Zinjo]

I'm still trying to figure out episode 25. I mean, too much stuff for just one episode!!!

I guess they considered the vajra too dangerous. And decided to completely forget about them.

am I right?

I suspect they didn't forget about them since most of their technology became based on Vajra abilities. I'd suspect they studied them and emulated them as much as they could figure out how. Though I'm sure they avoided any confrontations with them, since that would prove fatal!

Edited November 8, 2009 by Zinjo

[VFTF1]

Never heard the term plot fodder. biggrin.gif Did you make it up? *Curious*

Yes - let it be known that on this day, on Macrossworld, history was forever changed as VFTF1 came up with the term "plotfodder."

I wanted a word that connoted the same thing as cannon-fooder; except in the context of the plot of a story as a whole rather than just people necessarily put into a battle so that "someone could die" - these would be people who necessarily had to have something bad happen to them so that the plot could advance.

ergo - Plot fodder

And life as we know it will never be the same.

Pete

[Zinjo]

Yes - let it be known that on this day, on Macrossworld, history was forever changed as VFTF1 came up with the term "plotfodder."

I wanted a word that connoted the same thing as cannon-fooder; except in the context of the plot of a story as a whole rather than just people necessarily put into a battle so that "someone could die" - these would be people who necessarily had to have something bad happen to them so that the plot could advance.

ergo - Plot fodder

And life as we know it will never be the same.

Pete

I like the term, personally...

It describes so much of how poorly Mac 7 was put together, from a writer's point of view...

One can't really blame Kawamori either, since all the man did was writer the story outline, which I still believe was no more than half a season's worth...

[VFTF1]

It describes so much of how poorly Mac 7 was put together, from a writer's point of view...

I invite you to the MW rewatches M7 thread where this notion is in the process of being disproved. When we're done, we'll have exploded all these wrong headed stereotypes about Macross 7 - it's not only great for the general message or plot theme, not just because the songs - it is also a very well woven tale.

Pete

[BadTroll]

You are making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that pacifying the PD was the PC goal. All indicators show that the GOAL was to stop them, which resulted in their imprisonment. We get no sense that the PC intended to "free" them of their hunger, they didn't have the time or the opportunity to learn what these beings needed. They were under attack by massive PD forces and needed to stop the devastating war.

Your making an assumption that they could have done anything besides making them sleep. Basara succeeded in stopping them and did it permanently(In about the same time span with less knowledge and understanding of the PD than the PC had). Putting them to sleep did nothing but buy the PC time at best. The idea that that is a success goes against what Basara himself represents anyway. He didn't recognize the PD as enemies to be defeated, he valued them as he did any other and worked so that his message would get through to them. This in and of itself is why he represents why Humanity has surpassed the PC in some ways~ Such as the wisdom that wars are meaningless and something greater can be used to resolve conflict. That song can connect and move people to their core.

To assume that the "realization" of the anima spiritia soldier was to free the PD is based on no guantifyable proof or record.

I never said that it was to free the PD, it's something much more universal that can be experienced by everything and anything. What that realization is, is more along the lines of Basara's exceedingly pure spirit and conviction to his way of life, culture and beliefs. He knows some greater truth that people seem to not understand and he is the one who ends up delivering the message. A message that calms the hearts, heals the spirit and brings people together. As far as I'm concerned, that was one of the messages Macross 7 gave us and I feel that he really is the ultimate realization of that.

If Gigile and Sivil hadn't embraced the idea of self generating spiritia, Basara and his band would have been either consumed or destroyed by the final battle.

I don't understand how you are trying to detract from his accomplishment with that. It was his song and soul that got through to them. He touched them and made them understand him and respond. He was quite literally the only thing protecting Macross 7 from becoming cattle and facing defeat.

I think you need to stop venerating a plot device character and see him as he really was, a catalyst do develop Mylene and Gamlin.

You are not giving him his due and probably did not understand him properly if you only saw him as a plot device to develop other characters. I also don't feel that Macross 7 was weak in terms of story. I personally feel the opposite and much enjoyed the deeper messages and symbolism in the show as they pertain to the Macross series.

[RedWolf]

Perhaps a better analogy is the Anima Spiritia were equivalent to Sheryl in affecting Vajra, before the cure, while Basara is the equivalent of Ranka.

Even before he got labeled Anima Spiritia he was classified as Abnormal Spiritia Chord C.

He was similar to the AS of old but very different. Else Gigille would have immediately recognized what he is.

It was not until Sivil awoke that they started to recognize Basara as Anima Spiritia.

Besides most tellingly Mylene, Emilia and Veffidas are able to produce Song Energy that can also affect the Protodevlin.

The way I see it as demonstrated by Dr. Chiba's modification of the Gunship fold system to a Sound Buster Cannon the Protoculture used Science and Technology still to contain the Protodevlin.

It was not until the Varauta reseach fleet deactivated the energy field that the Protodevlin awoke.

Edited November 9, 2009 by RedWolf

[Keith]

The Protoculture's intention was to stop the Protodevelin from destroying all life in the universe. All they were able to manage was to seal them away. Basara was able to solve the problem alltogether, i.e. Basara > PC Anima Spiritia.

[BadTroll]

The Protoculture's intention was to stop the Protodevelin from destroying all life in the universe. All they were able to manage was to seal them away. Basara was able to solve the problem alltogether, i.e. Basara > PC Anima Spiritia.

Truth~ In the end, the results don't lie.

As Red Wolf said, Basara is an abnormality. Right from the beginning he was shown to be different and unique even in comparison to others who can use song energy. Saying he is anything but the ultimate and best representation of Anima Spiritia doesn't seem plausible.

[Zinjo]

I invite you to the MW rewatches M7 thread where this notion is in the process of being disproved. When we're done, we'll have exploded all these wrong headed stereotypes about Macross 7 - it's not only great for the general message or plot theme, not just because the songs - it is also a very well woven tale.

Pete

Thanks but I'll pass. I've thrown down gloves with Keith and several others on this subject several times before and the results are still the same. The lovers will continue loving it for their own reasons and the rest of us will continue not to love it for our own reasons. Feel free to do search on Macross 7 to see my positions. You will not change my mind just as I will not change yours...

[Zinjo]

Your making an assumption that they could have done anything besides making them sleep. Basara succeeded in stopping them and did it permanently(In about the same time span with less knowledge and understanding of the PD than the PC had). Putting them to sleep did nothing but buy the PC time at best. The idea that that is a success goes against what Basara himself represents anyway. He didn't recognize the PD as enemies to be defeated, he valued them as he did any other and worked so that his message would get through to them. This in and of itself is why he represents why Humanity has surpassed the PC in some ways~ Such as the wisdom that wars are meaningless and something greater can be used to resolve conflict. That song can connect and move people to their core.

We both are assuming what the PC knew or didn't know about the PD. My assumption is based on what has been written in the chronology, yours I'm not sure.

If "humanity" has surpassed the PC in the wisdom that wars are meaningless, then how do you explain the revolt in VFX2 (granted we are not entirely sure if that's canon or not) or the behavior of the Galaxy fleet? Basara had a point of view and a set of principles that he never deviated from, but he is still very much alone in that respect, based on the events of Frontier.

I never said that it was to free the PD, it's something much more universal that can be experienced by everything and anything. What that realization is, is more along the lines of Basara's exceedingly pure spirit and conviction to his way of life, culture and beliefs. He knows some greater truth that people seem to not understand and he is the one who ends up delivering the message. A message that calms the hearts, heals the spirit and brings people together. As far as I'm concerned, that was one of the messages Macross 7 gave us and I feel that he really is the ultimate realization of that.

Right, the Macross Superman effect. Gotcha...

I don't understand how you are trying to detract from his accomplishment with that. It was his song and soul that got through to them. He touched them and made them understand him and respond. He was quite literally the only thing protecting Macross 7 from becoming cattle and facing defeat.

And if he had failed, what then?

Vampiric enslavement for the citizens of Macross 7 and the most likely destruction or absorption of all its military. Basara's "accomplishment" was a fantasy, which is where I differ in my position to yours. You accept him as some sort of superman and I disagree and expected a more dramatic and plausible resolution to the peril the fleet faced. That isn't to say you are wrong or I am wrong since its a matter of tastes.

You are not giving him his due and probably did not understand him properly if you only saw him as a plot device to develop other characters. I also don't feel that Macross 7 was weak in terms of story. I personally feel the opposite and much enjoyed the deeper messages and symbolism in the show as they pertain to the Macross series.

I understand him just fine. In stories, "protagonists" grow and learn, Basara did neither, he was reacted to like a storm or force of nature. Now I am faced with the choice of seeing him as either a plot device character as a catalyst for other characters to grow by or see him as a two dimensional, poorly written character. I choose the former.

This doesn't make him the respresentative of humanity's superiority over the PC, since we've already seen the contrary in Frontier. He was a single minded, persistent character than remained developmentally static for 49 episodes. He didn't start a Network wide movement that transformed humanity into enlightened beings. His message, while affecting many around him and apparently stopping the greatest threat known to the PC ( ), appeared to be not much more than a flash in the pan. His music certainly inspired Sheryl, but we don't see his vision transferred to her at all.

This may not be fair or just, but it appears to be the case in the Macross universe.

As Red Wolf said, Basara is an abnormality. Right from the beginning he was shown to be different and unique even in comparison to others who can use song energy. Saying he is anything but the ultimate and best representation of Anima Spiritia doesn't seem plausible.

Yes, the Superman defence again...

Edited November 10, 2009 by Zinjo

[shadow strikers]

we haven't conquered the galaxy yet...

though we accomplished some feat in this series..

i think there are more greater things that the PC have done, that we know little of..

so we need a new series Mr kawamori xD

I know PC is a source of energy to power their machines and stuff, but what is PC exactly? Is it a unstable chemical? Is it a gas, solid? What is PC and how exactly is it made in nature? I think we do need a new series at least some what hinting to how it's made and what its made out of.

[RedWolf]

I know PC is a source of energy to power their machines and stuff, but what is PC exactly? Is it a unstable chemical? Is it a gas, solid? What is PC and how exactly is it made in nature? I think we do need a new series at least some what hinting to how it's made and what its made out of.

sigh~ *face palm*

[RDClip]

I know PC is a source of energy to power their machines and stuff, but what is PC exactly? Is it a unstable chemical? Is it a gas, solid? What is PC and how exactly is it made in nature? I think we do need a new series at least some what hinting to how it's made and what its made out of.

NO

Stupid RT protoculture is not Macross Protoculture. While in RT, PC is either food, a plant, or fuel; PC in Macross is the first civilization in the galaxy and progenitor of humanity and the zentraedi.

[shadow strikers]

NO

Stupid RT protoculture is not Macross Protoculture. While in RT, PC is either food, a plant, or fuel; PC in Macross is the first civilization in the galaxy and progenitor of humanity and the zentraedi.

I should of asked this in the noob topic, but I saw protoculture here so I went on and asked.

I'm sorry for being a noob.

[Seto Kaiba]

I should of asked this in the noob topic, but I saw protoculture here so I went on and asked.

I'm sorry for being a noob.

Unsurprisingly, it's a pretty common error for people new to Macross... don't let it get'cha down, though you may want to pop on over to Anime & Sci-Fi and read that thread about the differences between Macross and Robotech 'fore you continue.

If "humanity" has surpassed the PC in the wisdom that wars are meaningless, then how do you explain the revolt in VFX2 (granted we are not entirely sure if that's canon or not) or the behavior of the Galaxy fleet? Basara had a point of view and a set of principles that he never deviated from, but he is still very much alone in that respect, based on the events of Frontier.

Honestly, I think this alone is grounds to say "no, they haven't".

After all, the Protoculture left the Birdhuman behind to make absolutely certain humanity wouldn't repeat their mistakes and venture into space before settling their internal differences and putting aside their self-destructive impulses. Some fifty years after dodging the bullet with the Birdhuman, humanity's still very factionalized, with lots of different groups pursuing their own self-advancement, occasionally by downright hostile means (Vindirance, Macross Galaxy, all the wars and revolts that Isamu fought in, etc.).

Humanity might be rapidly approaching being on par with the Protoculture, but at the very least there's still that last big hurdle to be overcome, and they haven't even gotten a start on it.

[RedWolf]

(Vindirance, Macross Galaxy, all the wars and revolts that Isamu fought in, etc.).

Vindirance are the good guys. Col. Wilbur Garland was creating a scenario where the military can take over the government. Some officers found out and went rebel.

Garland believes everybody should be unified under one authority before another invasion comes.

Edited November 29, 2009 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

Vindirance are the good guys. Col. Wilbur Garland was creating a scenario where the military can take over the government. Some officers found out and went rebel.

Garland believes everybody should be unified under one authority before another invasion comes.

Yeah, but the point is, they still wanted to use force to do it...