Has Humanity truly surpassed Protoculture?

[Zinjo]

Unless Kawamori pulls the rug out from underneath us, there is currently no surviving "corporeal or sublimed" Protoculture entity/group that is "watching humanity from afar". The relationship is really one of humanity and it's ancestors; the only difference being our archaeologists tend to find a lot more "active" trinkets when we go "digging".

I believe that possibility does indeed exist. The PC must have numbered in the trillions considering how many years they survived, the extent of their republic and that what? 85% were wiped out by the PD war and subsequent Zentradi and SA battles.

The chronology describes a breakdown of the cohesiveness of the republic when the PC galaxy network collapsed. Now when you consider that trillions may have lived and 15% survived, that is still a very large number. I would disagree with any propogation of the notion that the race is completely extinct. What they are doing now is all conjecture, however there are many reasons why we would not have seen them thus far.

In universe, they still have to face the marauding Zentradi and SA threats, they are scattared to the four winds with no apparent way of contacting one another anymore (thus giving such elements the idea that they are the last) and some may be preoccupied with simply preserving their heritage and culture and have taken an isolationist view of the galaxy.

In the franchise, they are the enigma that keeps the mythos alive, very much like the fate of the Megaroad 01. To reveal them in all their splendor would be like explaining the "Force" is a bunch of microscopic bugs and not the mystery it once was in Star Wars. It would diminish the power of the mythos. Feeding us clues and crumbs about who and what they were/are is much more effective.

The possibility does exist, very much like the possibility existed that more than one Macross class warship could exist, over a year ago... We have no proof either way and that doesn't support either assumption as we've learned...

[Alastar]

I think that we are now within the same league as they are. At this point only 70+ years after DYRL humans have colonized a vast amount of worlds in a very short time. Technology and Interacting with other Protocultre engineered species has put us on their level. We have been developing our own technology at a rapid pace mind you. I forgot the time gap between M7 and Macross F but the technology has bade leaps in bounds. I would say another 100 years...( or 3 more Macross series) and we might surpass the PC.

[BadTroll]

12 year gap. 47-59.

[mospeadamacrosstech]

12 year gap. 47-59.

A lot can happen in 12 years.

I think it would be fascinating if there is a Macross series that somehow travels from one point in the galaxy to another showing the effects of this human colonization. I guess Frontier touched on this a bit, but I for one would love to see more.

[BadTroll]

I'm not saying anything about development. Just responding to his question of the time between series.

[RDClip]

I doubt there are any survivors of Protoculture left, but if there are they have probably lost or forgotten how mighty their culture once was. Its has been tens of thousands of years since their empire was destroyed after all.

[RedWolf]

Why do you think the Zentradi didn't have a problem with Fold Faults? 10 years to find hte Macross? 11 days the reach the Bodolza fleet? Plenty of time to prepaire before Bodolza reached Earth? You better believe the Zentradi had problems with fold faults.

Nobody knew Fold Faults existed until the 117th Fleet studied the Vajra.

Within 8 years of studying these creatures they discovered the Vajra did not have any relativistic travel lag or communication lag.

This led to the question as to why humans coudn't do the same as they do.

Two years before the 117th was lost understanding of dimensional sciences improved. Dr. Chiba's Sound Detectors was an example of such.

[mospeadamacrosstech]

I'm not saying anything about development. Just responding to his question of the time between series.

I gotcha.

Your previous post just made me elaborate on some ideas I had.

This is a very interesting topic!

[Keith]

I also question whether things like missiles & beam weapons were native to the Vajra. Looking at their base stages of evolution (via Ai-kun), there's absolutely nothing there to imply native mecha combat style ability. I'd wager it was actually the Regults & Glaugs that inspired teh Green & Red Vajra, not the other way around. Given their ability to adapt & evolve when attacked, it stands to reason that the Protoculture inadvertently gave the Vajra combat ability.

[RedWolf]

Glaugs and Regulds weren't the only ones that have similarity to Vajra.

Given that the Meltrandi have more machine aesthetic ships it is always my theory that much like in DYRL the organic style and machine style ships represented different factions of the Protoculture.

[Bri]

The Varija are an interesting step in Macross in terms of encountering alien races. Ranka told us that they are an intergalactic species living in different Galaxies and occasionally (every few millions years) join up to mate. Afaik this is the first mention we have seen in Macross of extra Galatic travel. As a side note, Grace controlled one Varija Hive/individual so her claims to control the universe were a tad overboard, as we don't know how many other Varija hyves there are. Possibly only one per galaxy. I'd think that the Varija home planet in our Galaxy is just a bee hive, instead of the planet where the species evolved.

This kind of leads to the next question, were the PC limited to our Milkyway Galaxy? If not it could explain we see so little of those thousands of Zentradi fleets, they could just be deployed to other Galaxies. Maybe the Fulbtzs-Berrentzs Class Mothership have intergalactic fold capabilities?

As mentioned earlier in the thread the PC are the ledgendary ancestors. I'd guess they are meant to be kept mysterious. Writing wise they can be constantly upgraded to be on par with whatever enemy a new macross series introduces as long as we don't know to much about them.

[RedWolf]

Thus perhaps the reluctance to present the Supervision Army as a viable enemy. As far as we know the Supervision Army is both composed of Protoculture and Zentradi.

Though I do wonder what sort of fighter complement they had. Exsedol thought the Varauta Valkyries were familiar but he dismissed it. Posibly because they weren't Zentradi.

The layout of the ASS-1 sugested it was crewed by both miclones and Zentradi.

Otherwise they could be just using battle pods in Protodevlin colors.

[Keith]

Glaugs and Regulds weren't the only ones that have similarity to Vajra.

Given that the Meltrandi have more machine aesthetic ships it is always my theory that much like in DYRL the organic style and machine style ships represented different factions of the Protoculture.

Even there, what need woudl the Vajra have had for battleship designs? I can't help but think that's also a direct reaction to contact with the Protoculture. Mimicing ship designs may have been their attempt at communicating with the Protoculture, aside from defending themselves.

[RedWolf]

Even there, what need woudl the Vajra have had for battleship designs? I can't help but think that's also a direct reaction to contact with the Protoculture.

You do bring an interesting point that Vajra weapons are an adaption.

But an adaption to who?

A direct threat to the Vajra themselves I can think of is the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army 500,000 years ago.

Supposedly the Protodevlin were so gluttonous that they threatened a galaxy wide extinction event.

[Keith]

You do bring an interesting point that Vajra weapons are an adaption.

But an adaption to who?

A direct threat to the Vajra themselves I can think of is the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army 500,000 years ago.

Supposedly the Protodevlin were so gluttonous that they threatened a galaxy wide extinction event.

I don't know if the Protodevelin would have had much interest in the Vajra, being a hive species, I can't imagine they'd generate much spiritia of interest to them.

[VFTF1]

Hm.

Kind of an aside here - but given how much Exedol knew about the Protoculture, and given his title of "archivist" - you would think the Zendradi kept...you know...archives - a written record of the history of the Protoculture. Although - it seems that this knowledge was only available to a few, and we see that you could have been killed if you found out the true history of the Zendradi without official approval - but still...

Um...my point/question is this:

Given that Exodol KNEW about the Protodevilin in Macross 7.... do you think that he would have figured out why the Vajra were after Ranka, and therefore cut Macross Frontier down to two, three episodes tops, if he was there?

And even in HIS abscence - wouldn't the NUNS have detailed records on the Vajra garnered from the Zendradi archives which SURELY were shared with humanity?

Or...am I making a mistake somewhere?

Pete

[RedWolf]

In Macross 7 Exsedol knew about the Protodevlin but didn't know the details until he came upon the Protoculture ruins on Lux. Same goes with miclones and reaction weapons.

All of them were useless trivia until it faced him. Up until the fact it was all myth and legend. In Macross TV it was Bodolle Zer who told Exsedol about the Protoculture. Thus the old standing orders not to mess with miclones started to make sense. By the end of the war Exsedol figured out the origins of the Zentradi as weapons of the Protoculture and the collapse of the Stellar Republic into civil war. It was not until the Lux Ruins did Exsedol find out the origin of the Protodevlin and the Supervision Army whom the Zentradi Army fought.

The only other Protoculture expert that we know of is Mao Nome.

Perhaps Mao used whatever Protoculture trivia Zentradi advisers had to track down old Protoculture stomping grounds and stumbled on the Vajra in 2040.

Edited November 1, 2009 by RedWolf

[VFTF1]

Oh yeah. You're right. I guess my memory was playing selective tricks on me - remembering one piece of information abstracted from all context...

Pete

[Alastar]

12 year gap. 47-59.

wait so are you telling me this whole time i was thinking that DYRL happend in 2012 like in the series? I never knew that it took place in 2047. i mean i kno its cannon and all but to me it dont sound right but dont mind me.

But back on topic with the new info i just learned. thats still even more impressive.

[Beltane70]

You're getting confused there, Alastar. 12 years is the time gap between Macross 7 and Macross Frontier.

DYRL is supposed to take place in 2011. In fact, the short-lived truce between the Macross and Zentraedi takes place on September 11, 2011 according to the dialog in the movie.

Plus, DYRL is also supposed to be a movie within the Macross universe according to the official Macross timeline.

[Keith]

And the DYRL movie in the timeline was made in 2031/

[nexxstrait]

Has Humanity truly surpassed Protoculture?

No.

[Alastar]

You're getting confused there, Alastar. 12 years is the time gap between Macross 7 and Macross Frontier.

DYRL is supposed to take place in 2011. In fact, the short-lived truce between the Macross and Zentraedi takes place on September 11, 2011 according to the dialog in the movie.

Plus, DYRL is also supposed to be a movie within the Macross universe according to the official Macross timeline.

Thanks because i really was confused for a min.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I would say another 100 years...( or 3 more Macross series) and we might surpass the PC.

Don't think so. The "Birdman" Protoculture mecha from Macross Zero was waaaay more advanced than anything shown before and it is already millenia old...

I'd wager it was actually the Regults & Glaugs that inspired teh Green & Red Vajra, not the other way around.

Well, the final episode of Frontier showed that the "Birdman" from Zero was made by the Protoculture based on the Vajra Queen, not the other way around... so Glaugs and Regults are more likely to have been developed by them to resemble the Vajra to an extent. In fact... my theory is that the Vajra inhabited the same star system as the Protoculture and they got some ai-kuns somehow and researched them to develop space fold.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Kronnang Dunn

[VFTF1]

Here's another random thought:

Humanity has surpassed the Protoculture because Humanity has Nekki Bassara. I was ALMOST going to write "Lyn Minmei" - because she was pioneer who showed everyone the path but... the thing with Minmei is that I think she kind of stumbled into it. She did not consciously set out to end conflict through the power of music - she just happened to do it.

I don't mean to say that she wasn't very brave -but you have to admit she was somewhat of a RELUCTANT savior - because it's a huge burden, and kind of like Misa had to struggle to preserve her womanliness in the face of her military career/upringing - so Minmey had to resign herself to being an idol rather than a woman...

Bassara has no problems on this front - he is kind of like the fulfillment of the kind of life that Minmey showed was possible. And it doesn't make him less manly - he still gets all the chicks

And this is something the Protoculture couldn't figure out.

They were kind of like the Macross Galaxy - they clearly looked to science for all their salvation - even humanity was a science project meant to save them - but it's humans who actually opted not for more snazzy gadgets but the passion of a love song and love itself as the key to salvation.

So - yes - humanity has surpassed the Protoculture.

Pete

[Keith]

Don't think so. The "Birdman" Protoculture mecha from Macross Zero was waaaay more advanced than anything shown before and it is already millenia old...

Well, the final episode of Frontier showed that the "Birdman" from Zero was made by the Protoculture based on the Vajra Queen, not the other way around... so Glaugs and Regults are more likely to have been developed by them to resemble the Vajra to an extent. In fact... my theory is that the Vajra inhabited the same star system as the Protoculture and they got some ai-kuns somehow and researched them to develop space fold.

There's a huge difference between the Vajra Queen & her support Vajra. Just like there's a huge difference between the AFOS and Regults & Glaugs. To put it another way, I think the Protocutlure developed their mechanical technology themselves, and the Vajra adapted themselves to combat it. The Protoculture's Biological technology on another hand (like the AFOS), may very well be based off of the Vajra.

[RedWolf]

It is interesting to note that UN Forces developed biological bug type weapons on a former Protoculture planet.

Now whether UN Forces used Protoculture ruin's devices or genetic materials to create them is unknown.

If the Protoculture were about to create Vajra knock-offs these could be an indication of the mentioned weapons escalation on the ruins of Rax.

On another front in Macross Dynamite 7 Mylene Beat Colonel Barton had a clandestine operation to create a Evil Series from Protodevlin cells.

He hid this from Macross 7 leadership.

Yeah human can be as idiotic as the Protoculture when it come to their ceation biting them in the ass.

The X-9 Ghost and its descendants were to be humanity's version of the Zentradi but then Sharon Apple happened.

[BadTroll]

Humanity has surpassed the Protoculture because Humanity has Nekki Bassara.

I think that's why most of us relented to either "Yes, we have surpassed them" or more specifically "Yes, in some ways, but not really technologically or in size".

[VFTF1]

Technology and size are nothing in comparisson to the eternal power of a burning passionate love heart [and Sheryl's magnificent bootie! ]!!!!!!!!!!!

Pete

Edited November 7, 2009 by VFTF1

[BadTroll]

eternal power of a burning passionate love heart

I don't disagree. Basara's songs would make the Protoculture rock out and die in peace.

Edited November 7, 2009 by BadTroll

[RedWolf]

I don't disagree. Basara's songs would make the Protoculture rock out and die in peace.

Who is to say they are really dead?

Sara and Shin has to go somewhere.

Another comparison between humanity and Protoculture is in the realm of AI development.

Humans have Sharon Apple, Ghosts, and Macross Galaxy while the Protoculture has shown AI tech with the Bird Human.

[Zinjo]

Here's another random thought:

Humanity has surpassed the Protoculture because Humanity has Nekki Bassara. I was ALMOST going to write "Lyn Minmei" - because she was pioneer who showed everyone the path but... the thing with Minmei is that I think she kind of stumbled into it. She did not consciously set out to end conflict through the power of music - she just happened to do it.

You are aware that the PC had Anima Spiritia soldiers right? We get the impression that there were more than one AS soldiers who imprisoned the PD. That was one of the reveals in M7 that Basara had the Anima Spiritia ability that was familiar to the PD, but not the people of the fleet.

Though Keith brought up an interesting paradox. With an adaptive species like the Vajra, which came first? Did the Vajra adapt PC weaponry or did the PC mimic the Vajra weaponry? Was it a mutual adaptation? The PC initiated the Vajra organic weaponry and then mimiced it after the fact....

Humanity hasn't yet reached the same technological level of the PC nor has it colonized the whole Galaxy as the PC did. Essentially it's gotten as far as it has by standing on the shoulder's of giants (no pun intended). After 50 years it is still scraping the surface of what the PC had acheived, without the knowledge and experience gained by the development of such advances. In many ways humanity is taking the fast track to a parallel history that took the PC millenia to experience. With all of its current experiences, humanity is still plagued by its own hubris and dark desires. The Galaxy fleet is a prime example. Mankind, I believe, is on a collision course with a large scale civil war, similar to what the PC experienced eons before.

We could argue for and against PC extinction, but there is no proof either way, so the question remains.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Zinjo

[Alastar]

Don't think so. The "Birdman" Protoculture mecha from Macross Zero was waaaay more advanced than anything shown before and it is already millenia old...

What i mean is in another 100 years humans will be just as onmi present in the galaxy as the protoculture was. NUNs already has a galatic network and now has the ability to use fold waves and lets not forget about the new black hole warheads that they have now. Way more powerful than reaction warheads.

[VFTF1]

Hm...

You know - this line of thought tends to suggest that the next Macross might be about how humanity finally achieve everything the Protoculture achieved and then...blow themselves up

Pete

[BadTroll]

You are aware that the PC had Anima Spiritia soldiers right?

Except, Basara is by default the pinnacle of anima spiritia and it's successful realization. He's the very best, it's part of what embodies his character. Besides, where they all together failed, Basara succeeded and made the Protodeviln sing his song!

FIRE!!!