Has Humanity truly surpassed Protoculture?

[VFTF1]

Was that really so much "Galaxy vs Frontier" as it was Grace and her cohorts vs the rest of humanity; with the NMC Galaxy co-opted to their ends. After all we never did get a conclusive outcome to what happened to the Galaxy colony fleet, so they may have opposed or not known of Grace and Co.'s agenda. So, I never saw as a fleet on fleet battle.

Oh...actually I'm going to have to disagree.

I see the battle as distinctly a civil war and it is Galaxy vs. Frontier. Here's why:

Galaxy was the fleet where implants and cyborgs were given free reign: in other words; it was the fleet where no moral limits were placed before science: science was given ultimate freedom and morality was tossed by the wayside in the interest of progress; because it was seen that scientific progress, which empowers humanity, is the highest moral goal, while morality as a limit to science is just sentiment.

So, insofar as this was the political culture on Galaxy; and we see that it was - then Galaxy as such is to blame; and Galaxy as such is at war with other fleets which have a more restricted view of science, or which attempt to link science to morality and pursue a more humane type of technological advancement.

Enter Frontier.

Notice Sheryl's stories from Galaxy: do you see any lonely poor people in Frontier? This is not to say that there is no economic hardship; since whereever there is time and scarcity, there is hardship and the need to rationalize or economize; but it is to say that Frontier seems to be the type of place where this hardship is eased in its' more extreme possibilities.

Galaxy, on the other hand - at least from what Sheryl teaches us - is a place where little girls eat out of garbage bins while mad scientists primarily conduct super crazy experiments meant to bring them closer to being mortal Gods rather than using science to help those around them.

Science on Galaxy is also used as a form of mind control; taking the ploy of the Sharon Apple project and succeeding in making an art of deception out of it.

So - perhaps it is true that the citizens of Galaxy on the whole were not evil or bad (probably is true), but the system they allowed to flourish in their colony - a system of science not tamed by any moral reflection - led to a tyranny of technology serving the egomaniacal desires of a vengeful heart.

The regime in Galaxy was a symbol of the potential for evil in modernity and technology.

The regime in Frontier was a symbol of the potential for good in modernity and technology guided by moral and artistic imagination.

This was a civil war between two fleets with radically different ideological bearings - and it was probably exactly the type of civil war that the Protoculture experienced on a larger scale.

Pete

[Mr March]

I think that this is one of the best descriptions of the relationship between the human race and the Protoculture, with humanity being an expansion of the original race. The humans have weathered a lot of the same storms that the protoculture but I think that the jury is still out on the final fate of humanity. Survival is still not a certainty with the human race in this series (even though it is unlikely that they will be wiped out) and as demonstrated by the Vajra in the final episode of frontier, even with the galactic expansion of the race it is still possible for the human race to be exterminated.

The relationship between humanity and protoculture is very similar to the relationship between humans and the "aliens" in the 2001 A Space Oddessy series of books.(not so much the movies) If you've read them you will know what I mean, its not that easy to describe.

Ultimately though, I think that humanity will never truly surpass the Protoculture because I think that humans are moving down a different path to the other species.

Lets hope for more Macross in the future to explore this further.

Taksraven

I've not read the books, but I know what you mean. I'm not sure that's a correct analogy, since the Protoculture is effectively dead.

The official literature does mention survivors on the extreme edge of the old Stellar Empire, but for all intents and purposes there is no "current" contact between humans and the Protoculture. "Contact", such as it is, between humans and the remants of the old Stellar Empire has come from automated technology left behind by the Protoculture (Atlita, Protoculture Temple on Rax, AFOS) or human contact with the enemies of the Protoculture, who have outlived the Protoculture itself.

Unless Kawamori pulls the rug out from underneath us, there is currently no surviving "corporeal or sublimed" Protoculture entity/group that is "watching humanity from afar". The relationship is really one of humanity and it's ancestors; the only difference being our archaeologists tend to find a lot more "active" trinkets when we go "digging".

[RedWolf]

Unless Kawamori pulls the rug out from underneath us, there is currently no surviving "corporeal or sublimed" Protoculture entity/group that is "watching humanity from afar". The relationship is really one of humanity and it's ancestors; the only difference being our archaeologists tend to find a lot more "active" trinkets when we go "digging". smile.gif

I'm surprised they only found fourteen Protoculture influenced worlds. Though we don't know if Lux got written off since it kinda blew up.

As for the digging part UN Spacy found the Protodevlin in M7 and the bug technology in M3.

Guess its fifteen worlds influenced by the Protoculture since there is Birdman image artifact on the Vajra homeworld.

[taksraven]

I've not read the books, but I know what you mean. I'm not sure that's a correct analogy, since the Protoculture is effectively dead.

Well, one point that is mentioned in the books is the possibility that the aliens that originally created the monoliths that guide and shape humanity are themselves possibly extinct. It is certain that the 2001 aliens gave up true physical form and became beings of light and energy which means that there is no chance of humanity ever really encountering them, only the devices the aliens have left behind. That to me sounds a lot like the humans dealings with the protoculture in Macross.

I still think a good future Macross series would involve humanity encountering the surviving remnants of the protoculture. I know that it would break some rules but it could be really interesting. Essentially it would be New Protoculture Vs. the Old Protoculture.

Taksraven

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

All this time, watching SDFM, DYRL, 7 and Zero, the Protoculture was always that all-powerful entity that was unrivaled throughout the galaxy in terms of technology and civilization. They created new species, for chrissakes, and they could be considered as gods, more or less.

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window. not only was it made clear that the PC was also subject to the limitations of fold faults, but we have an entirely new species that have no such limitations. Also, the Protoculture were in awe of these species, considering them superior, to the extent of modeling some of its technologies after the Vajra Queen.

Enter the humans and the Macross Frontier fleet. First of all, the humans developed instantaneous fold technology on their own (with a little help from studying Vajra crystals and carcasses). Then they actually defeated the Vajra. More than that, they were able to actually communicate with the Vajra (something which I presume the PC were never able to do). And now, they have landed on the Vajra home planet and are poised to co-exist with them as co-equals. And with the lines of communication now open between the two species, the Queen might even openly share her technology with Humanity, thus making instantaneous fold the norm.

I think, yes, Humanity has already surpassed the Protoculture at this point. what do you think?

Yeah but we are not as wise as them technoligcally because we didn't come up with the ideas ourselves but just stole the stuff from them.

Also there could be more powerful versions of the bugs in other areas. Sort of like how in yamato you had those blue skinned guys who look humanoid but were just more technologically superior. Maybe they have their own gods, and those gods are like superheroic and stuff. (think Dragonball Z type levels of destruction caused by just thinking about it. Or maybe more closely like that guy in Akira where he is too powerful to live in this world and might accidentally kill everyone with his power.)

Let's say for example the bug were created by this supreme being who just thought them into existence? That would make the bugs seem insignificant. The supreme being could represent a "highly-evolved" PC being, while the bugs were angels, and the normal PC were the "fallen" inferior PC that kept warring with each other and were not 100% perfect in how they lived thier lives.

We could just be the cousins of these lower fallen versions of the PC. Sort of like how man can be thought of as "fallen" after being kicked out of the garden of eden kinda thing. (that's why we keep fighting and killing stuff because we would only mess things up if granted the 'gifts' we once had)

PC made the mistake of splitting up the man from the woman causing the war between the female and male zentradi. This means they didn't learn to love and preferred killing and fighting. So it trickled down to us. And now you see humans spreading themselves across space and possibly bringing more of their destructive powers to other planets.

Now for those who play "Civilisation" on pc, what if there were other races that the PC genetically altered to evolve quickly on these planets who lived there and fought humans for control of the planet's resources? You had an excuse for more fighting and killing which means more shows. Problem with macross is there really is only 2-3 races. Human, Zents, elves. What if we find other more hostile races as we explore more of space? Like how in mospeada the inbit travelled to earth and fought the humans because they were interested in the planet.

Humans in the future would be like the invading inbit were in Mospeada. Those aliens might want to fight us and steal our technology for control. Just as the zentradi needed to get control of the SDF-1 in space war I, which is the only thing holding them back from destroying the ship. (they don't want to damage it, because they need to study it)

At any point in time the technology could backfire on you too, and one of the hostile alien races uses the weapons against you and steals all the humans' ideas. Just as we stole our ideas off the protoculture instead of making it ourselves..

Edited October 16, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

Well, one point that is mentioned in the books is the possibility that the aliens that originally created the monoliths that guide and shape humanity are themselves possibly extinct. It is certain that the 2001 aliens gave up true physical form and became beings of light and energy which means that there is no chance of humanity ever really encountering them, only the devices the aliens have left behind. That to me sounds a lot like the humans dealings with the protoculture in Macross.

I still think a good future Macross series would involve humanity encountering the surviving remnants of the protoculture. I know that it would break some rules but it could be really interesting. Essentially it would be New Protoculture Vs. the Old Protoculture.

Taksraven

Well, the difference being that the Protoculture never sublimed into some higher existence. Even if we assume some higher form of being was "in the cards" when Kawamori and Co. wonder to themselves on slow Sunday afternoons, all we do know is the Protoculture was nearly annihilated. What occurred after that is anyone's guess and no Macross show has indicated anything sort of ascendancy. That doesn't discount the possibility, but that's like saying it doesn't discount the possibility they all turned into pink elephants spouting Vogon poetry

But like yourself, I do wonder what happened to the Protoculture remnants. Did they survive? They may have, but they may not even be in the Milky Way anymore. It's not like there was much left for them here, except the possibility of running into SA and rogue Zentradi.

[taksraven]

That doesn't discount the possibility, but that's like saying it doesn't discount the possibility they all turned into pink elephants spouting Vogon poetry

About the Vogon poetry, I rather liked it, with its surrealism of the underlying metaphor.

Taksraven

[Morpheus]

About the Vogon poetry, I rather liked it, with its surrealism of the underlying metaphor.

Taksraven

Basara singing Vogon poetry, I bet the protoculture wil raise from their grave gnawing their own fist.

[Mr March]

Basara's songs are Vogon poetry

[RedWolf]

Basara's songs are Vogon poetry

So the reason the Protoculture isn't there anymore is because the Anima Spiritia demolised their planets for space highways with a several thousand year old notice of eviction?

[Morpheus]

Basara's songs are Vogon poetry

Basara songs - A cleverly disguised Vogon Poetry that was ranked 2# from below on the Sane Galaxy Music Chart, with Exedol Formo "My Boyfriend is a Pilot" being no. 1#. A patient during Macross 7- Varauta war committed manly suicide by performing Kamikaze into a Varauta ship when exposed to Basara song. Even the Protodevlin leader itself must forced to digest two of his brethren in order to survive the ordeal.

[dreamweaver13]

Basara songs - A cleverly disguised Vogon Poetry that was ranked 2# from below on the Sane Galaxy Music Chart, with Exedol Formo "My Boyfriend is a Pilot" being no. 1#. A patient during Macross 7- Varauta war committed manly suicide by performing Kamikaze into a Varauta ship when exposed to Basara song. Even the Protodevlin leader itself must forced to digest two of his brethren in order to survive the ordeal.

And don't forget the rest of the quote from the Guide:

However, the very worst song in the universe was performed by one Reba West. Thankfully she was destroyed when Robotech was.

[dreamweaver13]

just realized an addition to this:

while the PC developed something as terrifying and powerful as the EVIL series, humanity has now developed a powerful mass destruction device, the MDE or the Little Girl. i'm not saying that one is better than the other, i'm just saying that both these races can come up with mighty scary stuff for warfare purposes.

Edited October 21, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[Gubaba]

just realized an addition to this:

while the PC developed something as terrifying and powerful as the EVIL series, humanity has now developed a powerful mass destruction device, the MDE or the Little Girl. i'm not saying that one is better than the other, i'm just saying that both these races can come up with mighty scary stuff for warfare purposes.

Well, at least the Dimension Eaters aren't sentient...

Whoa. Wait a second.

Whoa.

I think I've just come up with the plot for the next Macross series...

[d3v]

Well, at least the Dimension Eaters aren't sentient...

What's to prevent someone like Grace building a miniaturized dimension eater into their cybernetic body?

[dreamweaver13]

Well, at least the Dimension Eaters aren't sentient...

Whoa. Wait a second.

Whoa.

I think I've just come up with the plot for the next Macross series...

Ok, this time guard that idea a bit more carefully. Unless you want Gainax stealing your ideas again. (and of course, with all those macross marathons, you still haven't seen Gurren Lagann yet, have you?)

[Gubaba]

Ok, this time guard that idea a bit more carefully. Unless you want Gainax stealing your ideas again. (and of course, with all those macross marathons, you still haven't seen Gurren Lagann yet, have you?)

Not yet...

And now I also think I need to get around to watching Aquarion.

And Legend of the Galactic Heroes keeps taunting me whenever I open the "anime" folder on my hard drive...

[BadTroll]

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window.

I'm new, but the thought crossed my mind, so hey people!

Humans are not making all the same mistakes the PC did, so in this sense, they are superior. But as a superpower, not at all.

Also, are you saying the Vajra are superior to the Protoculture? It's been a bit since I've seen frontier but I don't think that's really the case.

They imitated the Vajra so it's not like they are inferior. They run across some alien species, worship them, then imitate their 'technology' and probably expand on it. Besides, they did create the EVIL series, which would probably annihilate the Vajra, right? Vajra don't seem to be on the same level as them.

Also, since it's necessary of my first post.

FIRE!!!

[RDClip]

No, but does humanity have the potential to? Yes.

Seems to me the greatest merit of humanity is the ability to adapt. It is kinda remarkable that a mere 10 years after finding the ASS-1 they were able to restore and retrofit it to fit the needs of humans. Also take into account how they were able to utilize OverTech into their own creations by SW1.

By the time Frontier takes place, humanity is developing their own technology loosely based on OverTechnology, but is uniquely human. But, i think the next step for humanity is the further development of genetic engineering and techno-organic technology.

However its is kinda hard to tell how far advanced the protoculture really were, we only see mere remains of what they had.

[Valkyrie addict]

I doubt humanity has surpass protoculture if we depend on a little girl with mosquito bites for breast that rides a segway and sings dress as a carrot to survive

[BadTroll]

But humanity has Basara. He would just come in and sing all the Vajra away somehow.

Anyway, the Protodeviln's or Vajra? Any opinions on the Vajra are superior to Protoculture idea?

[Killer Robot]

But humanity has Basara. He would just come in and sing all the Vajra away somehow.

Anyway, the Protodeviln's or Vajra? Any opinions on the Vajra are superior to Protoculture idea?

I don't see that they were in direct competition. Humans have admired and worshipped whales and birds, used them as inspiration for vehicles, and even now are trying to figure out how to understand whale communications, determine the extent of their intelligence, and duplicate the properties of their skin for making better low-drag ship hulls. Are whales superior to humans? At being whales, perhaps.

Comparing humanity to the Protoculture is a much simpler deal due to genetic relation and similar modes of life, and even that's complicated sometimes.

[aerocombatpilot]

Not yet...

And now I also think I need to get around to watching Aquarion.

Believe me, you don't!

[RedWolf]

In terms of logistics humanity hasn't beaten the Protoculture.

4 million plus fleet of ships and their Boddole Mobile Fortress. That is one fleet out of thousands.

Moon sized factories producing weapons non-stop.

The Protoculture doesn't need to get into the firefight themselves.

Where as humanity's greatest mobile weapon, a Macross, has limited production runs. A Macross fleet has around 200 ships with it.

[Vepariga]

I dont think humanity has surpassed the PC, The PC establised influences and there presances on many worlds and thruout the galaxy they were known. The PC made leaps in science and technology,genetic research and defensive weapons. Humanity has only ridden on the success of the PC's labor and have only built from that framework,in respect,Humanity has only put there focus on space-colonys and deep space exploration and only happen to keep running into trouble,which has always been visited or fought aginst the PC previously. it would be great if the macross fleets met a PC convoy in deep space.

Humanity is reaching their arms out.

( imagine a macross fleet engaged with a PC remeninet fleet and the humans are getting smashed until out of a fold comes the megaroad and a massive ship caled the SDF-Minmay battlecruiser )

Edited October 30, 2009 by Vepariga

[Keith]

Humanity has surprassed the protoculture in several important area's.

Vajra: The Protoculture admired them, but were never able to establish communication with them. Though I'm curious which ones technology influenced which.

Protodevelin: The Protoculture were only able to temporarily seal them away, and at great cost to themselves.

Zentradi: The remnants of Protoculture failed at demilitarizing them, to their final downfall.

Given that Humanity has the Zentradi on their side, and fully integrated, assumed use of the Vajra's fold fault traversing technology, and the ultimate Anima Spiritia, Nekki Basara, it's doubtful the Protoculture would be able to overwhelm should there be a fight.

That is of course unless the Protoculture build a safety into humans, much like they put one into the Zentradi vs the Evil.

[BadTroll]

Though I'm curious which ones technology influenced which.

I think that's the point of the thread. Didn't Grace basically say the PC got their fold technology/superdimension weapons and such from copying the Vajra?

Edited October 30, 2009 by BadTroll

[RedWolf]

I think that's the point of the thread. Didn't Grace basically say the PC got their fold technology/superdimension weapons and such from copying the Vajra?

Yeah basically. But the Vajra was likely not the only influence for them.

There is a reason why the Spiral was adapted as the symbol for the Protoculture.

Red Vajra have spirals on them, also the Vajra homeworld Queens layer has a Spiral lair. Red ones were the inspiration for the Glaugs while the Green ones were the inspiration for the Regulds.

They love the Queen's so much wings that they adapted it for both the Birdman and some of the Evil Series.

The other source of the Spiral is the Galactic Whales. Like the Vajra these creatures can space fold.

When a Galactic Whale dies its corpse is absorbed in a fantastic drain action towards the Whale graveyard. A Spiral of Life Energy given back to the Planet Zola.

There is a very good indication that the murals and script on whale bones were written by the Protoculture for their Zolan descendants. Zolans are another race created by biological intervention much like humans by the Protoculture. Where humans came from a primate, Zolans evolved from marsupials.

Now the the Protoculture were so in awe of the Great White Whale so much that they call it a god. The thing eats reaction warheads for breakfast and has lived for millions of years.

Which makes me think the whole Fishman and Birdman Mayan legend is in fact an analogy by the Protoculture towards the White Whale and the Vajra Queen.

One thing humanity has surpassed the Protoculture in regards to the Galactic Whales is that Nekki Basara has performed a duet with them.

Oh yeah Vajra are hivemind space bugs while Vahla Ena (Galactic Whales) are actually intelligent space plants that can sing.

Edited October 30, 2009 by RedWolf

[BadTroll]

Which makes me think the whole Fishman and Birdman Mayan legend is in fact an analogy by the Protoculture towards the White Whale and the Vajra Queen.

Great post. I agree, yeah.

One thing humanity has surpassed the Protoculture in regards to the Galactic Whales is that Nekki Basara has performed a duet with them.

He made them sing his song. That song was Angel's Voice, and it was the very best.

[Zinjo]

Aren't the humans in Macross, for all intents and purposes, the Protoculture? Even though the old empire no longer exists, the humans are basically the legacy of that species, made in the same image and with as much or greater potential. I don't believe the UNG/NUNG have surpassed the Protoculture in terms of technological understanding, the size of civilization or the power of the Stellar Empire military. But it seems clear the humans in Macross have weathered the same storms as the Protoculture, but unlike their ancestors, the humans have survived and flourished both because of and in spite of themselves.

I would disagree.

With what little we know of the PC, humanity has "just" learned of the uses of fold quartz, whereas the old Zentradi fleets apparently didn't have a problem with fold faults. Humanity has just begun to tamper in genetics and not near to the level the PC did. Who, at the height of their technology, married genetics and SD technologies (Protodevlin). They had seeded sub-species of sentient beings and created an army of clones to fight their wars. Technologically, humanity is still an infant compared to the PC.

However, in terms of hubrus humanity, having the memory of near annhilliation in their past, has a head start on the PC. Whether that will allow it to surpass their progenitors in terms of sociological development has yet to be seen.

The PC conqured the galaxy, then turned their empire into a republic. However that republic split into civil war that raged until one side's ultimate weapons turned against them all. The PD war essentially destroyed the PC republic and nearly wiped out the species. The PC and human histories are quite different, almost inverted. Whereas humanity is moving toward super weapons, the PC already had them, thus their wars were much more devastating than humanity's. Frontier has already shown that factionization is forming within the UNG Federation. I'm sure Galaxy is not the only rogue state out there in 2059. Thus the historical inversion continues...

At the moment, for all we know, the remnant PC may have grown past their petty differences and lust for power and become some sort of unseen benevolent observer race in the galaxy. Since they remain an enigma we just don't know a the moment.

[RedWolf]

I'm sure Galaxy is not the only rogue state out there in 2059. Thus the historical inversion continues...

Some see the factionalization by colonization and emmigration as a danger to all humanity that they tried to grab power.

Col. Wilbur Garland of VF-X2 saw the writing in the wall that another invasion was inevitably coming sooner or later. His goal is for Humanity to be united under one banner before that happens. Even if at the cost of the liberty of those among colony worlds and fleets.

So through trickery he took command of both the SDF-1 Macross and Macross 13 to control the very heart of the NUNG, Earth.

Oh there have been insurrections and civil wars if Isamu Dyson's record is any indication.

From these conflicts people like Loscier (Macross Dynamite 7) who run a black market profit.

[BadTroll]

if Isamu Dyson's record is any indication.

God forbid he becomes an example. The galaxy would be doomed.

[RedWolf]

God forbid he becomes an example. The galaxy would be doomed.

And you wonder why nobody wants this guy. Every place he comes to becomes a warzone.

[Keith]

Why do you think the Zentradi didn't have a problem with Fold Faults? 10 years to find hte Macross? 11 days the reach the Bodolza fleet? Plenty of time to prepaire before Bodolza reached Earth? You better believe the Zentradi had problems with fold faults.

[Ghost Train]

This would make a good standardized test question. Here is how a RT-ard would answer the question:

Has Humanity truly surpassed Protoculture?

( A ) Yes, the invention of advanced folding technology and mass off-word colonization efforts provides ample evidence

Hmm... i dunno lolz dis sound liek the obvious answer, better eliminate.

( B ) No, despite immense technological achievements, humans still act based on greed and self-preservation.

Yea... whatevah, bla bla bla, .... it's got electrolytes

( C ) No, protoculture is a glowing green plant!

YES YES YES! OMG SH4d0w chranicluz was teh BEST !111!!!

( D ) There is not enough information to answer this question

Brother Tommy and Uncle Frank tells me there is

Edited October 30, 2009 by Ghost Train