Has Humanity truly surpassed Protoculture?

[dreamweaver13]

All this time, watching SDFM, DYRL, 7 and Zero, the Protoculture was always that all-powerful entity that was unrivaled throughout the galaxy in terms of technology and civilization. They created new species, for chrissakes, and they could be considered as gods, more or less.

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window. not only was it made clear that the PC was also subject to the limitations of fold faults, but we have an entirely new species that have no such limitations. Also, the Protoculture were in awe of these species, considering them superior, to the extent of modeling some of its technologies after the Vajra Queen.

Enter the humans and the Macross Frontier fleet. First of all, the humans developed instantaneous fold technology on their own (with a little help from studying Vajra crystals and carcasses). Then they actually defeated the Vajra. More than that, they were able to actually communicate with the Vajra (something which I presume the PC were never able to do). And now, they have landed on the Vajra home planet and are poised to co-exist with them as co-equals. And with the lines of communication now open between the two species, the Queen might even openly share her technology with Humanity, thus making instantaneous fold the norm.

I think, yes, Humanity has already surpassed the Protoculture at this point. what do you think?

[Lethalzero]

we haven't conquered the galaxy yet...

though we accomplished some feat in this series..

i think there are more greater things that the PC have done, that we know little of..

so we need a new series Mr kawamori xD

[d3v]

All this time, watching SDFM, DYRL, 7 and Zero, the Protoculture was always that all-powerful entity that was unrivaled throughout the galaxy in terms of technology and civilization. They created new species, for chrissakes, and they could be considered as gods, more or less.

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window. not only was it made clear that the PC was also subject to the limitations of fold faults, but we have an entirely new species that have no such limitations. Also, the Protoculture were in awe of these species, considering them superior, to the extent of modeling some of its technologies after the Vajra Queen.

Enter the humans and the Macross Frontier fleet. First of all, the humans developed instantaneous fold technology on their own (with a little help from studying Vajra crystals and carcasses). Then they actually defeated the Vajra. More than that, they were able to actually communicate with the Vajra (something which I presume the PC were never able to do). And now, they have landed on the Vajra home planet and are poised to co-exist with them as co-equals. And with the lines of communication now open between the two species, the Queen might even openly share her technology with Humanity, thus making instantaneous fold the norm.

I think, yes, Humanity has already surpassed the Protoculture at this point. what do you think?

Hard to say, the protoculture most probably have had a greater influence on other species throughout the galaxy than humanity. Technology wise, humanity may have caught up and surpassed them in certain areas, especially in terms of fold travel through the faults, however, I'm wondering if the protoculture never interacted directly with the Vajra and possibly even avoided traveling through the area's where they lived (seeing as the area was full of fold faults).

[RedWolf]

Well as I've said before the Protoculture when it comes to fold capable species are animists.

Unlike us humans who like to exploit them. The Vahla Ena and Vajra.

I believe the ancient writings on Zola depicting the Vahla Ena or Space Whale migration is in fact the Protoculture. Even leaving biological interpreters for the Zolans. The three eyed snake pets which resemble Vajra larva.

They called the White Whale a god that cannot die.

The Protoculture worshiped the Vahla Ena because they maintain the ecological balance.

Notice in the Mayan legend that the origin of man can be traced back to the Fish Human and the Bird Human.

The Fish Human refers to Vahla Ena while the Bird Human refers to the Vajra.

Protoculture Mythology so to speak.

Has humanity surpassed the Protoculture? No not yet. While humanity has not dabbled into creating servant races or sub-races they still have issues in developing AI.

AIs can be potentially our legacy as much humans, Zentradi and Zolans are the legacy of the Protoculture.

[Shaka_Z]

I would have to say that on the whole, humanity has most certainly NOT surpassed the PC. yes, in a few small niche technological areas we have managed to one-up them, but in the vast overall scheme of things we are still like little children compared to their achievments - the birdman of MacZero for instance was able to regenerate its' form from a decrepit wreck to a ship-killing monster in the space of just a few minutes by absorbing matter directly from the atmosphere for cryin out loud! the GA of frontier has managed to come close to PC achievements in terms of control interfaces however if Grace's manner of interfacing with the vajra superqueen in ep25 is any indication.

there is also the issue of the average level of technology available to the masses in PC society - while we really have no idea of what the typical PC citizen had access to, it was almost certainly far more advanced than the tech available to the average human in 2059, which is pretty much just more refined versions of what is available right now IRL... the really good stuff is not for public use or even for the public to know about.

[Kronnang Dunn]

All this time, watching SDFM, DYRL, 7 and Zero, the Protoculture was always that all-powerful entity that was unrivaled throughout the galaxy in terms of technology and civilization. They created new species, for chrissakes, and they could be considered as gods, more or less.

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window. not only was it made clear that the PC was also subject to the limitations of fold faults, but we have an entirely new species that have no such limitations. Also, the Protoculture were in awe of these species, considering them superior, to the extent of modeling some of its technologies after the Vajra Queen.

Enter the humans and the Macross Frontier fleet. First of all, the humans developed instantaneous fold technology on their own (with a little help from studying Vajra crystals and carcasses). Then they actually defeated the Vajra. More than that, they were able to actually communicate with the Vajra (something which I presume the PC were never able to do). And now, they have landed on the Vajra home planet and are poised to co-exist with them as co-equals. And with the lines of communication now open between the two species, the Queen might even openly share her technology with Humanity, thus making instantaneous fold the norm.

I think, yes, Humanity has already surpassed the Protoculture at this point. what do you think?

Man, I think, yes... You are really really underestimating the Protoculture.

First, if the Birdman is any indication... they did use the fold quartz and instantaneous fold transportation.

Second, by no means it was indicated that humanity defeated the Vajra.

Third, the Vajra left the planet.

And fourth, we still haven't created a galaxy wide Stellar Republic...

So no, we aren't nearly a bit as awesome as they were, sorry...

Edited September 30, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Mr March]

Aren't the humans in Macross, for all intents and purposes, the Protoculture? Even though the old empire no longer exists, the humans are basically the legacy of that species, made in the same image and with as much or greater potential. I don't believe the UNG/NUNG have surpassed the Protoculture in terms of technological understanding, the size of civilization or the power of the Stellar Empire military. But it seems clear the humans in Macross have weathered the same storms as the Protoculture, but unlike their ancestors, the humans have survived and flourished both because of and in spite of themselves.

[Morpheus]

No, unless NUNS started launching a fleet of 4-5 million ships along with a gigantic mobile fortress once every year.

[Isamu Starkiller]

I definately think we are following in the PC's footsteps, and I got the impression early on in Frontier that humans were on the brink of making the same mistakes as the PC.

Thru the various Macross Series we have a rough idea of the PC's existance and fall that I think a compelling series next could be the the high point of the human expansion and the first signs of history repeating itself by the fall of the human race throughout the galaxy....just a thought.

[dreamweaver13]

ok, ok, i get it. some of you are saying no to my post rather dismissively, though. my fault, for not explaining fully (or maybe i should not have added that "who's your daddy" part to the title; sounds rather adversarial).

most of the naysayers are in agreement that Humanity is nowhere near the level of Protoculture when it comes to sheer technological power, magnitude and number, and of course that's true. i didn't start the thread to espouse a theory that Humanity already has an interstellar empire in place to rival that of the PC. PC had 22,600 years worth of space colonization to work with, whereas it's only been 47 years since Humanity started. it's just not possible yet. but hey, look at WHAT they've done in those 47 years?

Let's take away the numbers and magnitude for a moment. My point was, when it comes to a level of technology, maturity, capabilities and potential as a species, is it possible that Humanity has already surpassed PC?

but let's check our premises first. If indeed, PC has already developed instantaneous fold on its own, as Kronnang Dunn insisted, then Humanity are basically on the same path and technological progression as the PC. Given the same number of years, they'll basically be on the same footing.

On the other hand, if we work from the premise that the PC did not have instantaneous fold capacity, then we have something here. If technological progression of PC is a line steadily climbing over the millenia, the same line for Humanity which ran parallel to the PC line suddenly took a monstrous leap when it discovered instantaneous fold only in its 47th year of space exploration. Thus, in terms of progression, we might have already left the PC behind. Imagine what 22,600 years worth of instantaneous fold travel can do for a species?

and besides, other than instaneous fold travel, we have the Vajra. ok, so humanity didn't defeat them. Even better, they were able to communicate with them! and even if the Vajra left, the fact remains that Humanity has found a way to communicate with them. A race so strange and incapable of direct communication that all PC could do was marvel at them, copy them and maybe even worship them.

as for technology, are they really that far off?

Sure, the PC had the Birdman and could have left an entire island on earth that went up the moment it detected lifeforms. how different is that than an AI-infused mecha? or an Island-1 landing on a new planet, readying itself for colonization.

as for what technology the average citizen has access to, Shaka_Z was right in saying that we have no idea what specific technology they had access to. it could be magical. it could be ordinary.

and as March pointed out, Humanity weathered the same storms that the PC had encountered, and passed them with flying colors. On its 37th year, it encountered the Protodevlin and came out of it in fairly good condition, when compared to the PC which lost 30% of its civilization trying to contain the threat.

PC had its Anima Spirita; so did the Humans. PC had cloning and genetic technology; Humanity is quite capable, although not yet at the same level as PC. PC has its giant soldiers. theoretically, so does Humanity, with all its Zentraedi able to macronize at any time.

You have to look at it from a Macro (hehe, a pun, a pun, whipee!) perspective rather than from one specific point in time to see where i'm coming from. i still think Humanity has already surpassed the PC with this latest adventure called Macross Frontier. Humanity may have just hurdled that final frontier that PC was never able to, after all.

[Roy Focker]

I think the Protoculture will always be surrounded in a mystery. Humans will never likely surpass them in super science or in legend. Humans have surpassed the Protoculture by not making the same mistakes.

[Gubaba]

I think the Protoculture will always be surrounded in a mystery. Humans will never likely surpass them in super science or in legend. Humans have surpassed the Protoculture by not making the same mistakes.

That's a good way of putting it.

And as someone (and I bleieve it was you, Dreamweaver13) said quite a while back...it seems like the Protoculture were too busy putting little tests and deathtraps all over their cities and relics to do anything useful, like survive.

So, since you could actually go from Macross Quarter to Island 1 without spilling mixed Zentradi/human blood, or sing a song without waking up some giant being that wants to know if people still fight, then yeah...we've surpassed them.

As far as science goes...well, Protoculture science seems to be some creepy-ass sh*t. I'd say that something like Grace shows humanity at least taking its first real baby steps towards doing freaky, Protoculture-style experiments.

And I'm not sure the Vajra count as an unqualified win for humanity, but reaching the Protodeviln certainly does. The best the Protoculture could do was seal them away...but Basara actually changed their minds.

[Shaka_Z]

to sum it all up, I think a paraphrasing of Delenn of Babylon 5 is in order for the humans and zentraedi of the macross universe:

they have finally grown out from beneath the shadow of their parents - it is now time for them to make their own magic.

[Max Jenius]

Well, don't assume the PC are a static culture. Like humans, they have probably evolved as well.

[Keith]

Until human tech can hold its own against something like the AFOS, then no. That thing deflected reaction weapons like they were nuthin', as such, humans are still just sponging off of PC leftovers.

Culturally however, humanity has surprassed the Protoculture. Humans have managed to cohabitage with the Zentradi, Protodevelin, and now Vajra. All feets which illuded the PC.

Edited September 30, 2008 by Keith

[RedWolf]

Until human tech can hold its own against something like the AFOS, then no. That thing deflected reaction weapons like they were nuthin', as such, humans are still just sponging off of PC leftovers.

Culturally however, humanity has surprassed the Protoculture. Humans have managed to cohabitage with the Zentradi, Protodevelin, and now Vajra. All feets which illuded the PC.

They did predict that eventually one of their miclone races will crossbreed with Zentradi.

Being what they call The Sign of Peace.

[grss1982]

All this time, watching SDFM, DYRL, 7 and Zero, the Protoculture was always that all-powerful entity that was unrivaled throughout the galaxy in terms of technology and civilization. They created new species, for chrissakes, and they could be considered as gods, more or less.

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window. not only was it made clear that the PC was also subject to the limitations of fold faults, but we have an entirely new species that have no such limitations. Also, the Protoculture were in awe of these species, considering them superior, to the extent of modeling some of its technologies after the Vajra Queen.

Enter the humans and the Macross Frontier fleet. First of all, the humans developed instantaneous fold technology on their own (with a little help from studying Vajra crystals and carcasses). Then they actually defeated the Vajra. More than that, they were able to actually communicate with the Vajra (something which I presume the PC were never able to do). And now, they have landed on the Vajra home planet and are poised to co-exist with them as co-equals. And with the lines of communication now open between the two species, the Queen might even openly share her technology with Humanity, thus making instantaneous fold the norm.

I think, yes, Humanity has already surpassed the Protoculture at this point. what do you think?

We don't have 1,000 Gorg Bodozle like fleets yet. If we had that THEN we can talk about surpassing the P.C.

[RedWolf]

Well we were almost wiped out before venturing into space.

Not much of a population to conquer all of space.

If we take the Protoculture history on face values they never had planetary wars.

They one began fighting each other when they reached space.

[dreamweaver13]

That's a good way of putting it.

And as someone (and I bleieve it was you, Dreamweaver13) said quite a while back...it seems like the Protoculture were too busy putting little tests and deathtraps all over their cities and relics to do anything useful, like survive.

So, since you could actually go from Macross Quarter to Island 1 without spilling mixed Zentradi/human blood, or sing a song without waking up some giant being that wants to know if people still fight, then yeah...we've surpassed them.

As far as science goes...well, Protoculture science seems to be some creepy-ass sh*t. I'd say that something like Grace shows humanity at least taking its first real baby steps towards doing freaky, Protoculture-style experiments.

And I'm not sure the Vajra count as an unqualified win for humanity, but reaching the Protodeviln certainly does. The best the Protoculture could do was seal them away...but Basara actually changed their minds.

man, you really remember stuff that we said before, don't you? from hereonafter, i dub thee the grand archivist of MacrossWorld. yeah i said something like that and we had a laugh about it. stupid protoculture.

well, Basara is... an anomaly. i dare say even the Protoculture never dreamt of having someone like him.

[Gubaba]

man, you really remember stuff that we said before, don't you? from hereonafter, i dub thee the grand archivist of MacrossWorld. yeah i said something like that and we had a laugh about it. stupid protoculture.

well, Basara is... an anomaly. i dare say even the Protoculture never dreamt of having someone like him.

Gad...this is the wrong thread for it, I know...so meet me over here. I have an idea...

[d3v]

Humanity isn't there yet, but we're getting close, we've already found a way to nullify the effects of pineapple salad.

[daflip702]

Surpass....maybe not. Try to conquer and exploit...definitely. Deculcha This!!!!!

[Kelsain]

I look at it kind of like Mr March does. Technologically, humans are building on the legacy of the Protoculture, not retracing their steps. While the PC had to innovate all of the overtechnology we see, humans only had to reverse engineer it. In that way, we can be seen as a continuation of the Protoculture, just the most recent incarnation. What we also see is that our new perspective has enabled humans to succeed where the PC failed, perhaps because we are not restricted by millenia of tradition, structure and preconceived notions.

I think it's less a matter of us surpassing the Protoculture, as picking up where they left off. The legacy of the Protoculture continues with the advancement of humans and the growth of the NUNG's sphere of influence. It is another golden age in a series of rises and falls. The events of Frontier seem to show two possibilities. 1. Galaxy's plot indicates that there may be another fall coming soon. 2. The lessons and peaceful resolution from the Vajra conflict may actually open the possibility of intergalactic travel. Everything we've seen so far in the Macross timeline occurs within the vast playground of our galaxy. If I understood ep 25 correctly, the Vajra sing Aimo across the gulf of galaxies, looking to mate with other swarms. We could potentially utilize fold-quartz travel to head over to Andromeda or something. That would open up some crazy story potential and break new ground in the series. I don't know if I like the idea, though...

[Final Vegeta]

But with Macross Frontier, that aura of superiority seems to have been thrown out the window. not only was it made clear that the PC was also subject to the limitations of fold faults

What if it wasn't?

That is the limit of humanity, no, of all cultures derived from Protoculture. (ep. 6)

According to gattai subs, it was never stated that Protoculture itself had the limit, it could just be that they didn't share with their "experiments". But if someone can give a better translation, I am here.

FV

[Lethalzero]

to start with im not that educated in macross lore..

so my opinion is just basically from where i am standing..

here it goes..

1st.. AFAIK we literally borrowed some of the technology to PC... KEYWORD: FOLDs/Folding

All humanity did is basically just reverse engineering..so we had a good start.. the technology was laid in our hands..all humanity did is to figure to run an oven toaster..

2nd.. maybe PC just didnt bother to eliminate Vajra... They just get some vital tech from vajra like fold crystal, the birdman...

i know you'll ask "why the mighty PC didnt bother to kill pest-looking vajra"s...

why?

Because there is more powerful than vajra + intergalactic folds + super dimensional lifeform..

and we have witnessed that in the last episode of mac F..

teh duet of songs "is your daddy"! XD

and the PC is very aware of that...

Edited October 2, 2008 by Lethalzero

[Beltane70]

As another poster more or less said, I think that humanity has pretty much continued from where the Protoculture left off more than it has surpassed them.

[d3v]

i know you'll ask "why the mighty PC didnt bother to kill pest-looking vajra"s...

IMO, the protoculture were probably never in any situation that called for war with the Vajra. The way they revered the Vajra (and possibly other creatures like the Vahla Ena) hints at some form of animism which may have led tham to steer clear of actively meddling with the Vajra.

[dreamweaver13]

good points about humanity pretty much continuing where the PC left off. so instead of parallel lines, we have a single line being continued by humanity.

On the other hand, maybe that's the cycle of life in the universe. for all we know, the PC just stepped into the shoes of another, more ancient and long-dead galactic civlization. oh well, but that's just pure speculation.

in any sense, Humanity seems destined to be greater than the PC. also, Humanity came this close to controlling the entire galaxy, or universe.

[Lethalzero]

in any sense, Humanity seems destined to be greater than the PC. also, Humanity came this close to controlling the entire galaxy, or universe.

i beg to differ sir,

Only grace came that close to controlling the entire universe/galaxy

and for all we know grace is'nt human anymore,technically speaking.

and the fact is, humanity should not have that power because we still ain't capable of controlling it.

[dreamweaver13]

i beg to differ sir,

Only grace came that close to controlling the entire universe/galaxy

and for all we know grace is'nt human anymore,technically speaking.

and the fact is, humanity should not have that power because we still ain't capable of controlling it.

i knew i should have added that additional qualifier to my statement, coz someone was going to go technical on me. i just knew it.

yeah, i know that, of course. but the bottom line is, if grace was able to accomplish her network, history would still point to "Humanity" as the culprit, regardless of how little (or no) "humanity" grace had left in her.

undiscovered alien race: "damn humans, look at the mess they made with this one."

[VFTF1]

An interseting question and conversation.

Ultimately impossible to answer until we actually meet the Protoculture or find definitive proof of their demise along with a clear view of what their civilization looked like.

Remember also, the real reason for the various fleets being sent to different corners of the galaxy - it was all done to preserve peaceful human culture - the idea being that hopefully not all of the fleets would end up destroying one another as the Protoculture had done.

Introducing the ability to instantly fold anywhere immediately poses great risk because it means malevolents could kill everyone all at once - everyone would be engulfed in war - concievably.

But ultimately it's hard to say - we STILL don't really know anything about the Protoculture.

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

Remember also, the real reason for the various fleets being sent to different corners of the galaxy - it was all done to preserve peaceful human culture - the idea being that hopefully not all of the fleets would end up destroying one another as the Protoculture had done.

Pete

Yeah, that's the ideal. interestingly enough, just 50 years down the line, we already have the first fleet vs. fleet conflict (Frontier vs. Galaxy). In the vast future yet to come, and with the differences and independence between fleets becoming more pronounced, who knows how many conflicts like this will arise? hopefully, not as catastrpohic as the ones that plagued the PC civilization.

[ShadowValkyrie]

Yeah, that's the ideal. interestingly enough, just 50 years down the line, we already have the first fleet vs. fleet conflict (Frontier vs. Galaxy). In the vast future yet to come, and with the differences and independence between fleets becoming more pronounced, who knows how many conflicts like this will arise? hopefully, not as catastrpohic as the ones that plagued the PC civilization.

Was that really so much "Galaxy vs Frontier" as it was Grace and her cohorts vs the rest of humanity; with the NMC Galaxy co-opted to their ends. After all we never did get a conclusive outcome to what happened to the Galaxy colony fleet, so they may have opposed or not known of Grace and Co.'s agenda. So, I never saw as a fleet on fleet battle.

Though I agree with the idea that as time goes on that eventually we'll start seeing more fleet on fleet frictions.

[dreamweaver13]

Was that really so much "Galaxy vs Frontier" as it was Grace and her cohorts vs the rest of humanity; with the NMC Galaxy co-opted to their ends. After all we never did get a conclusive outcome to what happened to the Galaxy colony fleet, so they may have opposed or not known of Grace and Co.'s agenda. So, I never saw as a fleet on fleet battle.

Though I agree with the idea that as time goes on that eventually we'll start seeing more fleet on fleet frictions.

yeah, i agree that it wasn't really a civil war type of conflict yet. the fact remains, though, that for probably the first time, we saw 2 macross class ships --both of them fleet escorts -- going at it (games excluded coz i wouldn't know, haven't played them).

[taksraven]

Aren't the humans in Macross, for all intents and purposes, the Protoculture? Even though the old empire no longer exists, the humans are basically the legacy of that species, made in the same image and with as much or greater potential. I don't believe the UNG/NUNG have surpassed the Protoculture in terms of technological understanding, the size of civilization or the power of the Stellar Empire military. But it seems clear the humans in Macross have weathered the same storms as the Protoculture, but unlike their ancestors, the humans have survived and flourished both because of and in spite of themselves.

I think that this is one of the best descriptions of the relationship between the human race and the Protoculture, with humanity being an expansion of the original race. The humans have weathered a lot of the same storms that the protoculture but I think that the jury is still out on the final fate of humanity. Survival is still not a certainty with the human race in this series (even though it is unlikely that they will be wiped out) and as demonstrated by the Vajra in the final episode of frontier, even with the galactic expansion of the race it is still possible for the human race to be exterminated.

The relationship between humanity and protoculture is very similar to the relationship between humans and the "aliens" in the 2001 A Space Oddessy series of books.(not so much the movies) If you've read them you will know what I mean, its not that easy to describe.

Ultimately though, I think that humanity will never truly surpass the Protoculture because I think that humans are moving down a different path to the other species.

Lets hope for more Macross in the future to explore this further.

Taksraven