The relationship between the Marduk,

[Capt_Bob]

I was thinking about the relationship between the Zentradi, the Protoculture, and the Marduk. My theory is that the Protoculture created them first and gave them a limited groking of culture (ie useing music to "pump up" their warriors). Later on, the Marduk cast off the shackles of Protoculture rule. After that the Protoculture created the Zentradi we all know and love without any groking of culture to control them more easily. What do you think? Now I know that Kawamori san has disowened Macross II and has declared it Non-Canon, but it's just something I was thinking of.

[Duke Togo]

You are trying to apply current official cannon to old non-cannon. It doesn't quite work.

[Pat Payne]

IMHO, the gist of Macross II was BW's first attempt (without SN's input) to explain the Supervision Army and tie up a lot of the loose story threads from the original series. With the Marduk's use of culture as a weapon (the Emulators spurring on their forces through song), that would seem to be a good impetus for the Zentradi injunction to stay away from Miclones and culture.

[Effect]

Makes sense. The Zentradi, the Protoculture, and the Marduk should all fit into Macross II's timeline since its suppose to be a sequel to the events shown in DYRL? and before the timeline change it was actually apart of the official canon timeline I believe.

Edited November 2, 2003 by Effect

[Macross_Fanboy]

How about Macross II being a movie made in the mainstream Macross universe. A futuristic sequel to Macross DYRL? which was referred to as a movie in Macross 7. So it's not quite canon. Except Kawamori didn't make it mainstream like he did to DYRL?.

[Pat Payne]

I was under the impression that Kawamori said that Mac II was an "alternate universe" but still canon. I don't see how it could be a sequal to DYRL, as in the official timeline, DYRL is a docudrama. It'd be a little like making The Dirty Dozen a sequal to Patton.

[Effect]

On the back of the Macross II box it says that it takes place 85 years after the events in DYRL?. Though remember hearing in a number of places that Macross II was just made an AU but still canon but along the AU lines. So basicly there could still be Macross items made that could take place during that timeline if BW ever wanted to go that way.

[Uxi]

I don't think the Marduk would be so much a direct creation of the Protoculture but as they'd be a sort of illegitimate descendant... or something not directly related but benefiting from their technology kinda like Earth.

But the thought of them being Supervision Army is interesting. Isn't it assumed that the Supervision Army were mindlessly following their Protodevlin directives? Or is there room for them to have developed independently or maybe have had an offshoot?

In either case, the Zentraedi of Bodolza would have be descended from Protoculture control but some of the "other fleets" could well be Marduk maybe...

[Pat Payne]

You have to remember, Mac II came out long before Mac 7 had been dreamed up. The Protodevln hadn't been created yet, so there was no conflict. That's why, if my idea about the Marduk being the "Supervision Army" is true, then Mac II would have to be a seperate univers on its own.

[bsu legato]

Yep, IMO Pat Payne nailed this one right on the head. Not that it was a particularly satisfactory explanation, but it's still interesting that they tried.

[Uxi]

Yeah I know it predates M7. I'm just trying to still make it fit... for hypothetical sake. Studio Nue and Kawamori don't like how other people played with THEIR baby.

[Effect]

Do we know they didn't like it? I mean has there actually be a statement on it? I'm seriously interested. I thought that people that worked on Macross II also worked on SDF Macross, even the character designer was the same right?

[JB0]

Do we know they didn't like it? I mean has there actually be a statement on it? I'm seriously interested. I thought that people that worked on Macross II also worked on SDF Macross, even the character designer was the same right?

Only the character designer is more accurate than even the character designer.

[treatment]

Do we know they didn't like it? I mean has there actually be a statement on it? I'm seriously interested. I thought that people that worked on Macross II also worked on SDF Macross, even the character designer was the same right?

iirc, only Hal Mikimoto was the only one from the original Macross-team that was directly involved in MII. The rest were prolly mostly Gundam-people from Bandai/Sunrise or something.

Studio-Nue was only given a credits-recognition, but never work directly on the MII project itself.

--treatment--

[Panon]

You have to remember, Mac II came out long before Mac 7 had been dreamed up. The Protodevln hadn't been created yet, so there was no conflict. That's why, if my idea about the Marduk being the "Supervision Army" is true, then Mac II would have to be a seperate univers on its own.

The Marduk couldn't have been meant to be the Supervision Army since M2 was based off DYRL - in which there was no Supervision Army.

[Keith]

Ok, right off that bat, MACROSS II DOESN'T FOLLOW "ANY" COHESIVE CONTINTUITY." While it may have been intended to follow up the movie, it doesn't follow its continuity anywhere near striclty enough to effectively do so. Plus the fact that it uses the TV colors, & crashed Zentradi ships on the surface (as buildings) doesn't help. Remember, no Grand Cannon, no crashed ships into the Earth! Don't even get me started on its idiotic Macross cannon layout (the ARMD carriesr are "CARRIERS" not cannon barrols.

With that said, I'll entertain a theory on applying Macross II:

The Marduk were an independent alien race, just like the people on Earth. Whether they were Protoculture influenced or not is irrelivent (thougjh in theory they would to have to have been in order to resemble humanoid appearance). Much in the same way the Zentradi came to Earth, they went to whatever the Marduk homeworld was, had a similar conflict, and were defeated by their "culture." Though how thier siren droaning would have awakened any emotion other than complete & total annoyance is anyones guess. Instead of integrating intol Marduk culture, the Zentradi were enslaved, and their technology used to roam around the galaxy blowinng crap up.

They were not intended to be Supervision Army, they weren't really fleshed out in to any degree whatsoever. Why so faithfully follow a religion, just to ignore all that & follow a dictator???

[Uxi]

The Marduk were an independent alien race, just like the people on Earth. Whether they were Protoculture influenced or not is irrelivent (thougjh in theory they would to have to have been in order to resemble humanoid appearance). Much in the same way the Zentradi came to Earth, they went to whatever the Marduk homeworld was, had a similar conflict, and were defeated by their "culture." Though how thier siren droaning would have awakened any emotion other than complete & total annoyance is anyones guess. Instead of integrating intol Marduk culture, the Zentradi were enslaved, and their technology used to roam around the galaxy blowinng crap up.

Why so faithfully follow a religion, just to ignore all that & follow a dictator???

Um... well I'll split some hairs here as you don't seem to be as much a guru of MII as of Macross in general. Your theory looks decent, though.

The arms of the Macross Cannons are not "barrels." Course, neither do the shoulder booms look to be, either. Rather all 4 (and the 2 in the legs of their refitted SDF Macross) seem more like focussing apparatuses, if not some sort of field/beam boundary creator.

Plus Lord Emperor WAS the religion as well as the dictator. AT least is as much as a Pharoah was the embodiment of ancient Egyptian religion...

[bsu legato]

Ok, right off that bat, MACROSS II DOESN'T FOLLOW "ANY" COHESIVE CONTINTUITY." While it may have been intended to follow up the movie, it doesn't follow its continuity anywhere near striclty enough to effectively do so. Plus the fact that it uses the TV colors, & crashed Zentradi ships on the surface (as buildings) doesn't help. Remember, no Grand Cannon, no crashed ships into the Earth! Don't even get me started on its idiotic Macross cannon layout (the ARMD carriesr are "CARRIERS" not cannon barrols.

Uhhh....I don't think anybody was questioning that. Nobody here seems to defend the notion that Macross 2 is anything more than a poorly written mess that was thrown together in an attempt to resussitate the franchise. Yoshi once pointed out on the old boards that it may have been the bastard child of the long forgotten spinoff PC engine games, but even that is speculation.

The Marduk were an independent alien race, just like the people on Earth. Whether they were Protoculture influenced or not is irrelivent (thougjh in theory they would to have to have been in order to resemble humanoid appearance). Much in the same way the Zentradi came to Earth, they went to whatever the Marduk homeworld was, had a similar conflict, and were defeated by their "culture." Though how thier siren droaning would have awakened any emotion other than complete & total annoyance is anyones guess. Instead of integrating intol Marduk culture, the Zentradi were enslaved, and their technology used to roam around the galaxy blowinng crap up.

It's entirely possible, but there's no evidence to prove or refute this theory. That's just one of the many failings of Macross 2. The Marduk were just thrown out there with no real explanation as to just who they were, other than the fact that they didn't like us.

They were not intended to be Supervision Army, they weren't really fleshed out in to any degree whatsoever. Why so faithfully follow a religion, just to ignore all that & follow a dictator???

True, there's no proof that they were intended as such, but as with your theory there's no evidence one way or the other. The "quasi-Supervision army" theory hold as much weight as your "Culture that defeated the Zentradi" theory....which is none. In the end it's all just speculation, and probably more than the M2 project as a whole deserves. I'd rather just forget that it even existed.

[Agent ONE]

Trying to connect the Marduk and the Protoculture makes about as much as trying to connect Darth Vader to the Borg.

[bsu legato]

Trying to connect the Marduk and the Protoculture makes about as much as trying to connect Darth Vader to the Borg.

I disagree. At least the Marduk and the Protoculture come from ostensibly the same franchise. Unless the writers of Macross 2 had never even watched any Macross before sitting down to script M2 (which is entirely possible) they must have been aware, however peripherially, of some of the "mysteries" that existed regarding the Protoculture. But unless there's some kind of anniversary DVD with a director's commentary released, we'll never know what they had in mind.

Edited November 3, 2003 by bsu legato

[EXO]

Trying to connect the Marduk and the Protoculture makes about as much as trying to connect Darth Vader to the Borg.

Darth Vader = James Earl Jones(voice) starred in Jack Ryan movies = Ben Affleck (last Jack Ryan starred with Matt Damon(Good Will Hunting) who was with Famke Jannsen in Rounders who was in Xmen with Picard(Patrick Stewart) who was once one of the Borgs.

[Agent ONE]

... But unless there's some kind of anniversary DVD with a director's commentary released, we'll never know what they had in mind.

Who is "they"?

[bsu legato]

Who is "they"?

The nameless hacks who "wrote" Macross 2.

Who were they anyway? Did any of them ever go on to do anything significant?

[J A Dare]

... But unless there's some kind of anniversary DVD with a director's commentary released, we'll never know what they  had in mind.

Who is "they"?

You know...the "man"

[Agent ONE]

Who is "they"?

The nameless hacks who "wrote" Macross 2.

...

Exactly, they were hacks... They weren't going by Kawamori's direction, they might have had no idea what Kawamori had in mind for the protocluture to be... In fact no where IN M2 was the term "protoculture" used to denote a ancient race.

I think the M2 writers knew much less about the original SDF-Macross, DYRL, and the Protoculture than we as fans do.

[treatment]

Who is "they"?

The nameless hacks who "wrote" Macross 2.

...

Exactly, they were hacks... They weren't going by Kawamori's direction, they might have had no idea what Kawamori had in mind for the protocluture to be... In fact no where IN M2 was the term "protoculture" used to denote a ancient race.

I think the M2 writers knew much less about the original SDF-Macross, DYRL, and the Protoculture than we as fans do.

well, fwiw, at least the MII team didnt redefined protoculture as a flower and brought in the Zor/Masters, Invid and stuff.

[Agent ONE]

Who is "they"?

The nameless hacks who "wrote" Macross 2.

...

Exactly, they were hacks... They weren't going by Kawamori's direction, they might have had no idea what Kawamori had in mind for the protocluture to be... In fact no where IN M2 was the term "protoculture" used to denote a ancient race.

I think the M2 writers knew much less about the original SDF-Macross, DYRL, and the Protoculture than we as fans do.

well, fwiw, at least the MII team didnt redefined protoculture as a flower and brought in the Zor/Masters, Invid and stuff.

[Keith]

Actually, I think there is some throw away comment in II that says something about the Zentradi coming to the Marduk homeworld & being defeated, either by Sylvie or Ishtar. I'm too busy gearing up to watch Gundam Seed to go back & check though.

And you damn well knew what I was talking about in regards to the ARMD carriers being used as part of the cannon!

Lastly, I doubt if the writers paid much attention at all to any of the Macross story before laying down II, aside from ripping off the event structure from DYRL. These are likely the same exact people who screwed up Orguss 02 by not paying attention to the ending of that series.

[VF-1D Strike]

I had always thought the Marduk were supposed to be the creators of the zentraedi or atleast an offshoot of the Protoculture or supervision army.

R

[Keith]

Nope, they didn't create the Zentradi, they just captured & enslaved them.

[bsu legato]

Nope, they didn't create the Zentradi, they just captured & enslaved them.

You forgot to add "In My Opinion" since there's no evidence one way or the other.

[treatment]

Nope, they didn't create the Zentradi, they just captured & enslaved them.

You forgot to add "In My Opinion" since there's no evidence one way or the other.

Have to agree with Keith here. It's not an opinion.

Ishtar directly revealed this to Hibiki in the MII series.

[Uxi]

Nope, they didn't create the Zentradi, they just captured & enslaved them.

You forgot to add "In My Opinion" since there's no evidence one way or the other.

Well if he can come up with that quote he said he heard, he might have something. I believe they were intended to fill out the SA role (from what little there was to go off of from SDF Macross and before the Protodevlin stuff all came out in M7).

[treatment]

Nope, they didn't create the Zentradi, they just captured & enslaved them.

You forgot to add "In My Opinion" since there's no evidence one way or the other.

Well if he can come up with that quote he said he heard, he might have something. I believe they were intended to fill out the SA role (from what little there was to go off of from SDF Macross and before the Protodevlin stuff all came out in M7).

I'll take a screen-cap of it later tonite when I get home. If somebody doesn't do it before me today.

[Keith]

Dude, watch the freakin' thing & pay attention. And watch it subtitled too, I'm tired of this crap where you guys can't pay attention to simple plot elements, and challenge me at the same time!

As for the Supervison Army, make up your mind there as well. If you're going to base your view on the theory that II was a sequel to DYRL, then there is no Supervision Army. Otherwise, they didn't pay enough attention to the continuity to even grasp the concept of the Supervision Army, let alone imply that the Marduk were supposed to be them. If they had, then they would have named them "Supervision Army," and not thrown in any of that "Aluse" B.S.