Macross Frontier Compared to Other Series Thread *Read 1st post*

[mr.chogokin]

My answers are no and hell no. Frontier does not compare to SDF at all.

[VFTF1]

I answered yes to both.

I agree with Graham.

I disagree with everybody else (pretty much)

I read the vast majority of the thread and here's my thoughts on some of what's been said:

1. "You always remember your first" - no, not really. All I remember is she had red hair and I had a grey suit on. And I think her name was Julia. Wait - or did you mean your first love? Although - you know; every time you fall in love AGAIN, you suddenly start considering your old love to not have been love, but rather a mistake - at least I do... so the analogy doesn't really work for me in that sense either.

And lastly - a good series like Macross SDF M has this advantage: namely, the more you watch it, the more you get out of it - it's like classic literature. Women and love don't have this advantage. Usually the more you look at her and talk to her the more you regret it

2. I agree with the sentiment of one fellow who said that he didn't like to compare the series/ovas because it's all one big ongoing story to him. I share this feeling and also feel kind of "pushed to the wall" with this topic - but if forced to vote, I vote yes on both in favor of Frontier.

3. I agree with Duke Togo that SDF M was great for showing the aftermath to the climactic battle and this was indeed a major strength. The first thing I thought of when hearing of the MF movie was "show what happens after." Still, this alone doesn't tilt the scales enough for me to vote no.

4. The animation question - as much as I love M7, I have to agree that the animation on that thing was trashy; I mean - when I watch SDF M, I KNOW it was made early enough that I can appreciate the animation as wonderful and great - but M7 could have been better and it wasn't (animation wise). But then again; it wasn't utter tosh either. Frontier was perfect. The best animation of any Macross was in Zero. Frontier had the animation of Zero for 24 straight episodes. The stylized animation in some of the episodes was - IMO - just wonderful. Things like Luca suddenly becoming a SD figure and blushing and rolling away; things like the facial expressions in Panty High School Queen - I loved it - it was fun, funny and endeared you to the characters more.

5. The point was made regarding the "threat factor" and how it just goes overboard at some point (first the earth is threatened, then the universe, then what? The multiverse?) - Personally - I think that the biggest threat is always to a character's hair: I agree with Minmay on that count.

And no - I'm not kidding. What we really become attached to is the fate of particular characters. Things like mass death are kind of mundane because they are mass death. Yeah; it's sad - entire civilizations being whiped out; but the dramatic effect is somewhat equivalent to the idea that the Sun will one day consume our world and no one will remember us...sniff... um - but what we tend to really care about is those closest to us - friends, families; people we see on a daily basis... so... I dunno - Frontier DIDN'T have to have some supa-dupa-big-threat. The one we got was quite enough.

Grace was a threat not so much because she wanted to be everywhere in the galaxy, but because she wanted to cybernetically control people's minds... I think the threat of science misused was well built up.

6. The one thing I don't agree with Graham about is NGE. I think Neon Genesis Evangelon is on par with Frontier. The thing that differentiates them is simply the difference between faith in the human spirit (Macross) and nihilism (NGE). So it's not right to compare them too strictly, since the points that they make are just so radically divergent.

Anyways - I love Macross Frontier and will buy 100 Alto Customs just to show it. (just wait! )

Pete

[Nexx Stalker]

as much as I love M7, I have to agree that the animation on that thing was trashy; I mean - when I watch SDF M, I KNOW it was made early enough that I can appreciate the animation as wonderful and great - but M7 could have been better and it wasn't (animation wise).

Watch more carefully, then. Have you see the remasters? M7 is superior to Frontier in terms of overall animation/background quality (except some cheap episodes) and character design.

Macross Frontier has a huge amount of "problems" compared to all the other Macross productions, but despite them it delivers, and that's something (more on this subject later).

[adrianop]

Why are you comparing a remaster vs a tv version?

[Radd]

I have to disagree that M7 is better in terms of backgrounds, and I'm undecided in terms of character animation. Certainly, I love the art style used for the characters in M7 much more, and I would have to say that the characters stay on-model more in M7 than they do in Frontier. Still, one of the things that makes it easier to forgive the inconsistent 2D animation quality of Frontier is the absolutely gorgeous background art. As far as background characters are concerned (such as concert-goers and whatnot), M7 is at least as bad as Frontier.

I would say that I disagree with VFTF1's comparison between SDF and M7. SDF, as much as I love it, looks like a cheap, rough around the edges and often rushed production. M7, while lacking the great directorial skills seen in SDF and the exciting battle animation, was far more consistent a production. I've said before, M7 never reaches the heights of SDF, but it also never reaches the lows. Both tv series seem like they were made on a restricted budget to me. Frontier, on the other hand, looks like quite a bit of money went into its production. I would say that despite it's inconsistent animation, it never reaches the lows of SDF, but it certainly has some glorious high points.

As for comparing a remaster to a tv broadcast, with so much time between the two shows, and how much technology has changed, I'd say it's about as fair a comparison as one can get. M7 was made for much lower resolution "standard definition" broadcast, while Frontier's tv broadcast was made for HDTV broadcast. Because of this, even, M7 is visually at a disadvantage, as cleaning it up with a remaster and watching it on an HDTV or computer monitor is just as likely to expose more flaws which standard definition tends to hide, whereas Frontier was made with HD in mind, and will be more capable of standing up to the scrutiny the higher resolution allows for.

[Alex SDU]

Here are my vote:

Best Macross TV Series

1. Super Dimension Fortress Macross
2. Macross 7
3. Macross Frontier

I vote SDF Macross #1 coz of the story, the people aboard the ship, the enemy, battle scenes.

Then came #2, Macross 7 coz it got lots of great songs...er...BOMBAAA!!!, has more close-in ship-to-ship battle scenes (episode 16:Physica got killed & episode 26:M7 landing on Rax)

Best Macross' Music

1. Macross Frontier
2. Macross Plus
3. Super Dimension Fortress Macross
4. Macross Zero

Macross Frontier get #1 in my vote for best music coz it's almost sound like from some Hollywood's music, thank to Youko Kanno.

Best Macross' Soundtrack (Songs)

1. Macross 7
2. Macross Frontier
3. Super Dimension Fortress Macross
4. Macross: DYRL
5. Macross Plus
6. Macross II

Well, what can I say, I'm just crazy for Fire Bomber's songs.

[Nexx Stalker]

So, this is in my opinion how Frontier compares to the other Macross productions.

General Plot

Frontier's general plot is not at all bad, but never goes too deep beyond the surface. It pales compared to the original Macross TV series, however. Don't let me even start on the unnecessary fan-service, perhaps the most disappointing part of Frontier (along with Ranka Jesus-like powers and her slapping Sheryl back just for the sake of it. Come on...)

Direction

Sometimes Frontier gives the impression of going nowhere and "wasting time", then it suddently accelerates and rushes to its conclusion. Macross Plus (thanks to Watanabe) remains on top for overall direction quality, followed by Macross TV series.

Action sequences

Here is where probably Frontier shines beyond any reasonable doubt above all other Macross productions. Macross Quarter rules and episode 25 epic battle is unparalled and will be hard to top for any mecha anime show!

Characters

Sheryl is probably the best female Macross characters ever created. Unfortunately, she is counterbalanced by an unnerving Ranka, the most obnoxious and annoying Macross character ever. Maybe Kawamori made Ranka that way on purpose. If He did, well, he succeeded. Bobby and Kanaria (and Ozma, to some degree) have charm, but Frontier suffers from too many underdeveloped characters (see Jeffrey Wilder), some bland "evil" guys (Mishima) and an embarassing Klan Klan (from giant mammaries to lolita in just a few seconds is a little too much for my taste) and Nanase. Alto seems an interesting character trying to get free from some bad stereotypical anime cliches without too much success. Macross TV and Macross 7 have the best characters from the franchise. Oh, and there is no Max on Battle Frontier. Captain Perry is just an ordinary guy.

Enemies

Alien-like Vajra (from cute pet to abomination in less than a second) simply have no charm. Zentradi, Sharon Apple, Protodevlin, Anti unification Army,

Marduke and even Space Poachers are simply on another level. Battle Galaxy and its Crew simply don't have enough screen time to save the day. Grace is a nice villain, though.

Character design

Oh Mikimoto, where are you? Needless to say, DYRL wins hands down, but also the original TV series, 7 and II are sooo much better than Frontier. Masayuki (MPlus) had style, too.

Mecha Design

I must confess I don't like the VF25 and 27 all that much (VF171, on the contrary, is a nice Valkyrie). Macross TV remains unchallenged (followed tightly by Macross II).

Animation

I'm not too fond of CG, but Frontier does wonders. I still prefer hand drawn mechas, so I say that nothing rivals Dynamite and Plus in this regard. Character animation is not bad but also nothing to write home about. DYRL wins.

Background Music

From Yoko Kanno I was expecting so much more! I was waiting for a masterpiece (another Bebop, maybe), but Frontier music is not. I like it, mind you, and it is so much better than the original Macross TV and DYRL. I liked very much how it blended with the scenes, and sometimes it sent shivers down my spine, but there were also some too boombastic/hollywood homages/moments for my tastes. Macross Plus remains on top. By far.

Songs

Aimo is a nice song, but again, it is no Voices. Frontier songs have to bow down to the mightiness of Fire Bomber. Yes, Macross 7 still

rules in this area.

To sum up, Frontier is a nice homage series (even if I would have liked to see more old Valkyries in it, like they did in Dynamite), but I would have preferred a more mature show. No old UN Kite, too (except for a brief glimpse). That's bad.

DESPITE all this, and against my better judgement... I enjoyed every minute of Macross Frontier and eagerly awaited the next episode like I was a little child watching Robotech (yes). Beside some embarassing scenes (Jesus-Ranka), I really liked the ending. It's my shiny new Macross, after all!

Edited October 29, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[s001]

COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU Nexx Stalker. Except for the part of Sheryl being the best Macross female character ever. C'mon are you serious?!!!

[d3v]

COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU Nexx Stalker. Except for the part of Sheryl being the best Macross female character ever. C'mon are you serious?!!!

Actually, I'll have to agree with Nexx on Sheryl. She's an interesting take on the "defrosting ice queen" (or more classic tsundere as compared to the more modern "slap slap kiss" type) where her she's "thawed" pretty early on showing a pretty complex and well rounded character. That, and the way she handled adversity after episode 14, where while she was down in the dumps, it was still mostly through her own effort and determination (albeit with support of friends) that she got back up on her feet - that moment in "Diamond Crevasse" where she stands up and sings in the shelter in a time of despair was a very powerful moment as well a more grounded take on the power of song (to give hope in times of despair).

[Radd]

I'd agree that the way Sheryl is developed over the course of the series makes her one of the more interesting Macross characters for the same reasons d3v states. On the other hand, I don't agree with the Ranka-Jesus comments. I really don't see how Ranka slapping Sheryl was any more "just because" than Sheryl slapping Ranka earlier. I'd also disagree that the overall plot "pales" compared to SDF:M. The story in SDF:M was a lot simpler and straight forward, both in concepts and in presentation.

I could do without the fan service. I didn't feel it was so over the top as some people seem to feel. We didn't have anyone spinning around nude in a zero-G shower or, or a completely out of context lesbian rape attempt. But, sure, could have done without Klan's "genetic deficiency" for one thing.

I do wish nearly every character had more development over the course of the series. I suspect the series could have been twice as long and filled out well with that kind of development without overstaying its welcome.

I do think that the Vajra, and the way they were handled, makes them one of the most interesting elements of the show, but due "twist" nature of the Vajra and their role, as well as Grace, and "Galaxy Anonymous", we never got the sort of "other perspective" that we got in SDF:M, where we would constantly see things from the Zentradi point of view. Giving us that perspective with the Vajra simply was not possible. Though, if the show had gone on significantly longer, it may well have been possibly to lead into more with Grace and Galaxy. That would have been nice.

I'm actually kinda surprised, given the incredible success of the show that it wasn't green-lighted for an extended run. Of course, I'm not certain exactly how successful it was, but from the way people have been posting all over, it really seems to have been the big anime event of the year.

[Killer Robot]

I'm actually kinda surprised, given the incredible success of the show that it wasn't green-lighted for an extended run. Of course, I'm not certain exactly how successful it was, but from the way people have been posting all over, it really seems to have been the big anime event of the year.

I really agree with most of these points. I spent much of the series waiting for Sheryl to be a shallow or lame presentation but she consistently surprised me by being the most three-dimensional in the cast, and the fanservice left me hesitant at first especially with the "otaku won't watch it if there's not enough loli" design principle. I wish more characters had development, but comparing it to 7 where everyone but Mylene and to a lesser extent Gamlin and Gigil were fun and colorful but entirely static characters I can't condemn it too badly. I wish there had been more villainous perspective like with past series, and while the story structure made it more difficult, I think more could have been done with the human conspiracy at least.

As for the extended run thing: Frontier is doing quite well. Thing is, these days it's not ratings that decide it, especially in a late-night slot like Frontier ran in. Those were good but not amazing, as I understand. The main thing is that it's selling lots of CDs/BDs/DVDs/merchandise/etc, and that's only more recently become clear. So it couldn't really be a case like original Macross where they learned it was a big hit early enough in the run to have the second story arc ready to air the week after the first one ended. How much more we see, though, that depends on what Kawamori is still ready to do with the story before he really puts it away.

[d3v]

I'm actually kinda surprised, given the incredible success of the show that it wasn't green-lighted for an extended run. Of course, I'm not certain exactly how successful it was, but from the way people have been posting all over, it really seems to have been the big anime event of the year.

Unfortunately, Satellite and Studio Nue still don't have the budget of a studio like Sunrise.

[Killer Robot]

I could do without the fan service. I didn't feel it was so over the top as some people seem to feel. We didn't have anyone spinning around nude in a zero-G shower or, or a completely out of context lesbian rape attempt. But, sure, could have done without Klan's "genetic deficiency" for one thing.

Meant to include this but forgot: the out of context lesbian rape attempt at least has some meaning now that I've seen the Mylene Beat manga that actually builds up both the character and the event as part of the plot. So I'm now much less baffled by its inclusion in Dynamite. Even if I still do find the offhanded nature of the anime's version and the "ha ha guess you learned a lesson, Mylene" resolution to be rather disturbing.

[crescens]

Ok, i guess it's time for me >.< Frontier is very good, but to click "no" on both options wasn't a problem to me. Sure, you can find spirit of original SDF but its a bit too hyped ( ep25 is like ZOMFGWTF hype). Storyline is good ( well they failed with the ending... not breaking the triangle... ehh epic ), music is also fine ( listning to both OST's everyday ). Ehhh, *looks at that bad beer and few empty bottles* what have you done to me...

ok so for me it looks like that...

1. Macross - DYRL

2. SDF - Macross / Flashback

3. M7

4. M+

5. M:F

6. M2

long live DYRL~ <3

[Morpheus]

MF is good but not the best of Macross.

I still considered Macross Plus as the best in term of music and animation, and SDF:M for the best story. However I have to admit that Sheryl is probably one of the best female character in MF. MF however has the best CG animation in Macross series, easily top Zero as the first Macross animation with CG model. Also MF has the best homage practice to the rest of the series.

I can compare MF with SDF:M in term of the main character (Alto vs Hikaru).

In SDF:M, Hikaru was introduced as an amateur pilot, he became combat pilot later on and as the story move on we can see he improved a lot in piloting skill and responsibility as squadron leader. During the final battle with Bodolza, he is not the hero who pull the trigger and end the war (not like DYRL), he was shot down and drifted to Earth. When Roy and Kakizaki were KIA, he is actually sad because of it and he even feel responsible for Kakizaki death. And Hikaru have interest in the girls (Misa and Minmay) and he choose one in the end.

Now to our beloved Sakura Hime Alto, he was introduced as an elite pilot-student who later become member of S.M.S. and he already an accomplished valkyrie pilot (shown with Michel setting the simulator at highest difficulty). In MF Alto was depicted as the hero of the show, storming enemy battleship to save his friend, and even pull the shot that ended the war. Worse of it, he doesn't seem to care about his fellow VF-171EX wingman. Alto had trouble regarding his girly look and almost half of the series we saw him trying to convince other that he's a man. And about the girls, I don't think he even considered them as love interest, but as a tool to help him reach his sky (the two of you are my wings......bleh).