Macross Frontier Series Discussion Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Duke Togo]

Oh, and a slight revision/addition to the episode 10 blurb... because I think I read previously that the episode was unplanned? So things make a bit more sense in that context. The whole blurb is kind of jumbled, but the gist is that Kawamori always wanted to see (in remembrance of his previous work) how his newer characters would enjoy themselves being able to see a movie about the adventures of his past characters. (hmm... the rationale behind DYRL being an in-universe movie?) The cameo was unplanned. (Ranka's cameo in the movie, since the whole episode was IIRC unplanned?) "But it ended up being counterproductive, as much was demanded of Ranka in later episodes; I don't think it brought her good fortune."

The main problem with episode 10 is the Nome sisters and Sheryl's total lack of a reaction to them. If I was orphaned as a child and didn't know anything about my family besides my name, I would sure as hell have big ??? over my head when I found out they were making a historical based movie where the main character's have my last name.

[bsu legato]

The main problem with episode 10 is the Nome sisters and Sheryl's total lack of a reaction to them. If I was orphaned as a child and didn't know anything about my family besides my name, I would sure as hell have big ??? over my head when I found out they were making a historical based movie where the main character's have my last name.

Probably my biggest beef with Frontier as a whole is how they seem close to acknowledging the events of Zero as having some relevance (Dr Mao, Zero the movie, birdman-esque markings on the Varja, etc) only to do a 180 degree turn and ignore it completely.

[Shaka_Z]

Probably my biggest beef with Frontier as a whole is how they seem close to acknowledging the events of Zero as having some relevance (Dr Mao, Zero the movie, birdman-esque markings on the Varja, etc) only to do a 180 degree turn and ignore it completely.

you know... thats quite possibly my single biggest problem with frontier as well. I really wanted to see sheryl belt out her own version of arkan - just enough to tell us that she indeed was aware of her heritage on some level. she wouldnt even have had to do it in the presence of other characters... just humming it while she was putting on the kimono while staying at alto's family estate would have been enough, and she wouldn't even have had to be really aware of its' own significance - it could have been a lullaby her mother used to hum to her or something, or perhaps she could have had her own repressed memories like ranka (but then, I am quite sure she does).

[Shaka_Z]

dammit on the way back to the office today I actually envisioned a better version of the final 2 eps - nothing massively changed, but rather mildly tweaked... especially wrt the transition from 24 to 25, and in particular the events that culminated in (and followed) the foldslap. dont know if i should voice the ideas though. Ranka would have gotten to show A LOT of emotional maturity my way... in a way following in Sheryl's footsteps.

Edited October 12, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[sketchley]

You guys have heard of the "red herring", right?

As for Sheryl's lack of reaction during the movie - she was traumatized at a young age with the death of her parents and became an orphan on the streets. Makes sense for her to have blocked out those memories to the point that hearing her parent's names or the family name and history has no effect on her.

From a writers point of view, the character became demanding to the writers!

Disclaimer: it's really not clear to me whether Ranka herself became demanding, her character became demanding to the story, or... what makes the most sense is that the the demands placed on her by her newfound fame took her in a negative direction. Take it for what it's worth.

[Duke Togo]

You guys have heard of the "red herring", right?

As for Sheryl's lack of reaction during the movie - she was traumatized at a young age with the death of her parents and became an orphan on the streets. Makes sense for her to have blocked out those memories to the point that hearing her parent's names or the family name and history has no effect on her.

From a writers point of view, the character became demanding to the writers!

I don't recall ever hearing about her parents being dead. Or even if her parents had anything to do with her being on Frontier. With Grace involved, who knows? Most likely, its yet another of Frontier's gaping plot holes.

[bsu legato]

You guys have heard of the "red herring", right?

Yeah, I've heard of a red herring. And unlike you, I know what it means too. Sheryl's relation to "Dr" Mao isn't a red herring.

[sketchley]

Why the attitude, Bsu?

Not everyone reads the same dictionary nor has the same exposure to all the potential definitions of a word.

[bsu legato]

Why the attitude, Bsu?

Not everyone reads the same dictionary nor has the same exposure to all the potential definitions of a word.

Yes, well it's still not a red herring. I'll accept this as your unusual way of conceding the point.

And the more I think about it, if I had any attachment to Mao I'd be annoyed that they reintroduce her in a photograph, only to (ostensibly) kill her off-screen. Never mind the huge disconnect between the girl we knew in Zero and the PHD-laden old lady we see in Frontier, because none of that gets explained anyway. Ah well, it doesn't really matter in the end. Sheryl's grandmother could have been named "Dr Lector" for all the difference it made in the story. At least it wasn't somebody with a really important name, like "Dr Ichijo" or "Dr Jenius."

[sketchley]

I'm not conceeding the point. In fact, I feel that you missed my point. You feel certain revelations are important to the main plot, and I don't. Thus, red herring.

[bsu legato]

I'm not conceeding the point. In fact, I feel that you missed my point. You feel certain revelations are important to the main plot, and I don't. Thus, red herring.

lol....That's....STILL not what it means, no matter how much you want it to. And nobody is arguing that these fact were important, but rather that there was no point to them in the first place. Sheryl's relation to Mao (not to mention her producing a freaking movie based on the events of zero) could have been completely omitted from the story without making one iota of difference. Hence, the Nome connection was pointless*. Which was The Duke's point to begin with.

*caveat: Maybe Kawamori has some big shocking reveal in the eventual Frontier movie. But I doubt it.

[mike_s_6]

From what I know, red herrings are deliberate plot lines to mislead people from focusing on the main issue right? I don't think Mao's relation to Sheryl was a red herring at all. If it was a red herring... what was it trying to keep us away from focusing on? I really thought Sheryl being a Nome would have much, more significance than what she had during the end. If only they planned her right from the start.

[bsu legato]

It would have been a red herring if Sheryl Nome was, in fact, NOT related to Mao Nome. Character with the same surname....makes a Mac Zero movie...then BAM!... not actually related. Not exactly a Shyamalanian twist, but at least that would have met the definition of a red herring. And, it would have made as much impact on the actual story as her actual relation did.

[Final Vegeta]

The main problem with episode 10 is the Nome sisters and Sheryl's total lack of a reaction to them. If I was orphaned as a child and didn't know anything about my family besides my name, I would sure as hell have big ??? over my head when I found out they were making a historical based movie where the main character's have my last name.

That's how things go when they they are unplanned. But even then, with all the clones circulating in all fleets, having the same last name could mean nothing at all. Yeah, you supposedly are kinda related, but then? Should you live with them as a family even though you don't know them?

FV

[Radd]

There's mountain with my last name. And a kind of pudding. There's a race car driver who I am not related to, and yet he has my last name. A photographer with whom neither of us are apparently related. And that's just a few real world examples, not in a far future where humanity was obliterated down to a few thousand or a million, and then the population was beefed up through cloning for several decades.

Sheryl might know about her link to the Nomes from Macross Zero, but it just doesn't mean much to her. She's been pretty successful on her own. Or she doesn't know (pale blonde pop idol related to some tan skinned island natives?) and the name is just a mild curiosity at most, given the circumstances.

No matter how you slice it, it doesn't really affect the plot, so I wouldn't exactly call it a plot hole.

[Shaka_Z]

There's mountain with my last name. And a kind of pudding. There's a race car driver who I am not related to, and yet he has my last name. A photographer with whom neither of us are apparently related. And that's just a few real world examples, not in a far future where humanity was obliterated down to a few thousand or a million, and then the population was beefed up through cloning for several decades.

Sheryl might know about her link to the Nomes from Macross Zero, but it just doesn't mean much to her. She's been pretty successful on her own. Or she doesn't know (pale blonde pop idol related to some tan skinned island natives?) and the name is just a mild curiosity at most, given the circumstances.

No matter how you slice it, it doesn't really affect the plot, so I wouldn't exactly call it a plot hole.

remember though that it has been conclusively shown that Sheryl is not blonde - at least when near death. Like I've said in previous threads, it seems her nome blood allows her to control her hair color to an extent (no I do not believe her hair color changes are holographic, especially given the evidence on the stage of BF in ep25). considering how Sheryl's character was apparently poorly planned until Ohnogi took over (at least, there seems to have been no original plan for her to be present past ep7), I must wonder how her character would have been handled (and the entire series effected as a result) had he been in charge of her from the beginning.

Edited October 12, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Duke Togo]

There's mountain with my last name. And a kind of pudding. There's a race car driver who I am not related to, and yet he has my last name. A photographer with whom neither of us are apparently related. And that's just a few real world examples, not in a far future where humanity was obliterated down to a few thousand or a million, and then the population was beefed up through cloning for several decades.

But you were not left abandoned as a child aboard a space emigration fleet with nothing but a name and a pair of earrings. I'm sorry, human nature says she says SOMETHING. Also, we have no clue how common of a name "Nome" is. I know for a fact that everyone in the US with my last name is related to me.

[Duke Togo]

Like I've said in previous threads, it seems her nome blood allows her to control her hair color to an extent

What does the "Z" in Shaka stand for, "Zinjo"?

[d3v]

No matter how you slice it, it doesn't really affect the plot, so I wouldn't exactly call it a plot hole.

I think it's the creative team simply throwing a bone to the fans. We've been wondering about her relation to Mao and Sara all this time, and while Kawamori has reused surnames before (LaSalle, Kridanik), somewhere along the line, they must have decided to simply confirm her as Mao's granddaughter.

[sketchley]

http://www.answers.com/topic/red-herring

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redherring

Neither mention plot lines and both mention distractions.

Is having grandma Mao show up important to the main story? For me, no. It's a distraction, on which we've spent far too much time on. Ergo, a red herring to me.

(As this opinion based discussion on the relevance, or lack thereof, of a relationship between the two major characters in the two series will most likely continue ad nauseam, unless some new facts are presented, I've moved on.)

From what I know, red herrings are deliberate plot lines to mislead people from focusing on the main issue right? I don't think Mao's relation to Sheryl was a red herring at all. If it was a red herring... what was it trying to keep us away from focusing on? I really thought Sheryl being a Nome would have much, more significance than what she had during the end. If only they planned her right from the start.

[bsu legato]

http://www.answers.com/topic/red-herring

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redherring

Neither mention plot lines and both mention distractions.

Ho-lee Christ. Are you really that obtuse? Neither of your links really address how the term is used in a narrative, either in literature or in tv/film.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(narrative)

In literature, a red herring is a narrative element intended to distract the reader from a more important event in the plot, usually a twist ending.

In literature, the most commonplace use of a "red herring" is in mystery fiction. One particular character is described or emphasized in a way that seems to throw suspicion upon that character as the person who committed the crime: later, it develops that someone else is the guilty party.

Film and television

In film, the "red herring" element is usually conveyed visually. An excellent example of this occurs in the 1947 suspense film The Spiral Staircase. The audience is aware that someone in the house is a serial murderer. Early in the film there is a thunderstorm: the pantry door abruptly opens to reveal the hulking figure of the caretaker Mr. Oates (actor Rhys Williams) framed in a flash of lightning as he bursts into the room. This is the first time the audience has seen this character; his distinctive entrance makes him seem sinister and aberrant, and therefore he is the obvious suspect in the murder mystery. But Oates is not the murderer; therefore this scene establishes him as a red herring.

Television soap operas often use the "red herring" device, specifically in murder mystery storylines. In most soap opera murders, the victim is usually a villain, who during his or her run on the show, has antagonized most of the main cast. A prominent example of the "red herring" in soap operas is the murder of Paul Cramer on One Life to Live. Paul was a primary character in the infamous "baby switch" storyline on One Life to Live and All My Children. When he was murdered, the killer was revealed to be Daniel Colson, who was being blackmailed by Paul because he was gay. Prior to the revelation, the two characters had no interaction with each other at all.

In the film, Clue, the term is used several times, or once in each alternative plot, at the end while the mystery is being explained. Each time the term is applied to Communism, as the line was usually "Communism was just a red herring".

Therefore we can safely say that the Mao-Sheryl connection is NOT a red herring, but rather a simple narrative dead end.

Now, Bilrer on the other hand, could be considered a red herring. When we first see him, everybody was convinced he was part of the then-mysterious Galaxy faction. Later, he makes some cryptic remarks about bringing the galaxy together, etc. Uh oh...it's looking like he's a bad guy. But in the end, the dude just wanted to meet Minmay.

[Duke Togo]

Now, Bilrer on the other hand, could be considered a red herring. When we first see him, everybody was convinced he was part of the then-mysterious Galaxy faction. Later, he makes some cryptic remarks about bringing the galaxy together, etc. Uh oh...it's looking like he's a bad guy. But in the end, the dude just wanted to meet Minmay.

Indeed!

You know, I really enjoyed Frontier, can't wait for the movie, but this doesn't mean I can't be critical of it. Some people seem so afraid to admit that its not perfect.

[Nexx Stalker]

Indeed!

You know, I really enjoyed Frontier, can't wait for the movie, but this doesn't mean I can't be critical of it. Some people seem so afraid to admit that its not perfect.

Yeah, with all that magic-sparkling-song thing going on it seems dangerously akin to Macross 7 .

[Shaka_Z]

Yeah, with all that magic-sparkling-song thing going on it seems dangerously akin to Macross 7 .

you are hallucinating my friend... that sparkly stuff was merely sweat sheryl is casting off as she performs ^^. unless you are talking about Ranka, in which case it's glitter. I dont wanna comment on what I think the vajra version of it is

[Radd]

But you were not left abandoned as a child aboard a space emigration fleet with nothing but a name and a pair of earrings.

You don't know that!

[sketchley]

Quid pro quo: http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=671149

Ho-lee Christ. Are you really that obtuse? (...)

[Duke Togo]

you are hallucinating my friend... that sparkly stuff was merely sweat sheryl is casting off as she performs ^^. unless you are talking about Ranka, in which case it's glitter. I dont wanna comment on what I think the vajra version of it is

I was assuming those were holographic effects.

[Shaka_Z]

I was assuming those were holographic effects.

ah it might be... but simpler explanations are always better ^^. some of the sparkly effects of Ranka's are definitely holographic though - they dont make glitter that big

[d3v]

ah it might be... but simpler explanations are always better ^^. some of the sparkly effects of Ranka's are definitely holographic though - they dont make glitter that big

IMO, sparkly's are the result of having the deculture level set to OVER 9000!

[wolfx]

IMO, sparkly's are the result of having the deculture level set to OVER 9000!

So sheryl's balls are inert?

PS: lol dragonball meme.

Edited October 13, 2008 by wolfx

[Shaka_Z]

All I know is that considering how much heat sheryl can put out when she performs onstage, if Alto ever *does* get her in his bed, he may not survive the experience. dogfighting brera might just be relaxing in comparison

[bsu legato]

Quid pro quo: http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=671149

Yes of course....plead ignorance, but continue to argue the "point" regardless. I'm done with you.

[s-girl]

The reason there isn't a lot of pro-Ranka discussion here, or much triangle-baiting is becuase most of the people here are not singularly obsessed with that aspect of the show. The fans on this forum are fans of Macross first. Not of a pairing.

Over the last few months,l I have seen "pro-Ranka" fans post here generally only in the relationship thread. If you want to see that discussion, I"d dig up that thread. It tends to be circular and boring, with people spinning the same scenes according to their own biases. Since many people on this board can not be convinced by arguments of fans who care about nothing else except that or the other pairing and have their own opinions, relationship "shipping" tends to eventually get ignored in favor of other interesting discussion.

Like on plot.

Or character death.

To talk about something else -- is the likelihood of a R1 release pretty unlikely? COuld any threat of Harmony Gold expressing interest in asserting some kind of court case to try to "redecide" the Macross ownership make this a dead Region 1 property? If so, I do want to know. I've been considering buying a R2 DVD player or BluRay anyways. I'm most interested in the special items that come with the DVDs though (booklets, stickers), so I want to start looking. If the BluRays don't come with the special stuff the regular dvds do, then I think I'd rather spend less and buy a R2 player...

Edited October 13, 2008 by s-girl

[Shaka_Z]

To talk about something else -- is the likelihood of a R1 release pretty unlikely? COuld any threat of Harmony Gold expressing interest in asserting some kind of court case to try to "redecide" the Macross ownership make this a dead Region 1 property? If so, I do want to know. I've been considering buying a R2 DVD player or BluRay anyways. I'm most interested in the special items that come with the DVDs though (booklets, stickers), so I want to start looking. If the BluRays don't come with the special stuff the regular dvds do, then I think I'd rather spend less and buy a R2 player...

at least for Blu-Ray, IIRC japan and the USA are in the same region (1) so a BR disc bought in japan should work just fine on an american market BR player. there may not be any english subs on said disc however. I say to hell with a US release and just order it straight from the rising sun.

[s-girl]

Yes, I'm aware of that, although I wondered if there was a comparison of what was in both the R2 regular DVD release vs the BluRay. I guess I better go look around the forums to see if it has been done...