Macross Frontier Series Discussion Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Sumdumgai]

Brera's not all that great. If it weren't for the luck of that asteroid coming between him and Klan Klan, she would have shot him down with her shoulder cannon back in the episode about Michel's past. Alto also shot off one of the VF-27's legs in that episode.

Brera would have probably shot Alto down in the sky of Gallia IV (especially with Alto's deer staring into headlights look) if it weren't for Michel.

Shooting Alto's wing with friendly fire, purposeful. Shooting down Alto in the under performing VF-171EX, while using a super-performing VF-27, doesn't say much for skill there.

I'd say Ozma is the best pilot in the series. The only times he was injured while piloting were when he thought that a Vajra with a blown-off head would stay dead, and purposefully taking a hit to defend the Macross Quarter bridge. Only other time he was hit was a wingtip while making a point to Alto when they fought each other. He came close to being hit in the final episode, but we don't know how that would have turned out since the vajra stopped.

[Morpheus]

Hmm, I just realized this:

Ozma : Injured twice, Valk got minor damage but not lost

Alto : Never injured, Valk lost twice.

[Scream Man]

overall i loved it. the animationwas up and down as peopel said, and i think the fan services early on was distracting and annoying. I liked most of the characters though, and the action was top notch.

While the 25 will never top the 19 as my fav VF, the fighters and big ships all looked and felt great, and the fight scenes were a lot of fun, despite reused footage.

Overall, In my top 3 macross animes(After Plus anf DYRL?, and only JUST ahead of Zero) and definitely a worthwhile addition.

[Final Vegeta]

Brera's not all that great. If it weren't for the luck of that asteroid coming between him and Klan Klan, she would have shot him down with her shoulder cannon back in the episode about Michel's past.

Brera was fooling around at the time. When he got serious Klan was eliminated very quickly.

Brera would have probably shot Alto down in the sky of Gallia IV (especially with Alto's deer staring into headlights look) if it weren't for Michel.

Not probably: certainly. And he would have do it a second time, weren't he called back by Grace.

Shooting Alto's wing with friendly fire, purposeful.

He didn't do it exactly on purpose, he told Alto to move away.

Shooting down Alto in the under performing VF-171EX, while using a super-performing VF-27, doesn't say much for skill there.

He was able to shot down other VF-27s, though.

FV

[Nexx Stalker]

We all know it: only Max or Miria could have stand a chance against Brera.

PS: oh, silly me, and Basara, of course.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Nexx Stalker

[magnuskn]

Since Sheryl is living with Alto, I wish Ranka good luck in trying to steal Sheryls boyfriend. She´s going to need it.

BTW, would anybody who thinks the triangle has been reset state how *exactly* that reset happened? As far as I know, all the things between Sheryl and Alto didn´t magically un-happen. And Alto has not stated any renewed romantic interest in Ranka. "You both are my wings" means, AFAIAC, that Ranka is important to him, as a friend, IMO.

On to the important part of the post. I´ll put my final review into bullet points, like Whispo did at the very beginning of the thread.

Animation: 9 The series had outstanding animation a good lot of the time, with clearly recognizable character designs, gorgeous backgrounds, outstanding technical designs ( I especially loved the pop-up holographics for the VF-25s and the holographic display of the cellphones ), beautifully done clothing and, with Sheryl, one of the most best character designs I have ever seen.

Why does it only get a 9? Because of episode 8 and some other episodes, where apparently the budget was too tight for the "good" animation. But, boy, did the episode 8 animation ever suck. I´m still hoping that they´ll re-do it for the blue-ray, although I am not holding my breath.

What stood especially out was how organically the technology was integrated into the characters lifes. None of it was too outrageous ( besides the instantly transforming mecha, IMO... how exactly does that work from a point of friction and material stress? ), and yet it gave the appearance of an advance in technology which will probably take us decades to get to. Sign me up for those cellphones, anyway. ^^

Voice acting: 10 About everyone was point-on perfect. I can´t remember not one character who was done badly. None sounded too over-the-top or like he was just reading his lines. They sounded like real people, which doesn´t always happen.

Editing: 9 Most of the times excellent, but there were here-and-there some rather "Hmmm" moments. Nothing too mayor or which I can put in coherent words, but some scenes could have flown a little bit better. Overall still outstanding, though.

Story: 8 The series did develop in rather unexpected ways a lot of time. We were trolled several times during it by Kawamori, and not only by letting Ozma live. There were some genuine surprises along the way ( the WTF-1, anybody? ), and he managed to mislead us several times into alleys of thinking, which rather turned out to be totally other things.

Also, the enemy this time was not to be another race which humanity could interact with easily. Rather than that, we got an insectoid enemy, who until the very last episode displayed almost zero development. They were very much just depicted as an unstoppable force, which meant that we had more time to devote to other parts of the story. In this case it was the love triangle, which was front and center for most of the series. It made the Vajra into a less than inspiring OPFOR, though. They definitely hold no candle to the Zentraedi. OTOH, it is better to have no personality, than to have sucky personalities, like the Protodevlin.

The story had some minor plot-holes, most of which are easily handwaved, though. More troubling is the fact that a lot of plot elements were included, but never fully explained, like Sheryl being Maos granddaughter. Without giving it more depth than a throwaway scene, it seemed to be more gratuituous than anything else. Some more exposition on this and on other little things could have greatly benefited the plot and the characters.

As said already, the focus on the love triangle was very noticeable in Macross Frontier. That makes the non-definite resolution that much sadder, because it seems to leave the story unfinished. We could of course look forward to future movies and OVAs, but as the ending for a television series, it did not work completely.

I think Frontier would have benefitted greatly from an extension, like the original SDFM or a second season, giving Kawamori time to show how the characters deal with their new world, expanding again a bit the Macross universe with some interaction with NUNS. And of course resolving the romance in a definite manner.

Of course, if one looks at the romance logically, one can see that Alto will probably stay with Sheryl, because they live together, are attracted to each other and already shared lots of time together, while Ranka has just returned to start at the beginning line again. And what will she do, actively try to wreck Sheryl and Altos relationship?

It would have been just nice to cap the series with a real confession by Alto to Sheryl. It would have fitted the epic build-up in episodes 22-24, but, alas, we are left to make sense of it on our own.

Characters: 10 I can´t say that I loved every single character. Nanase, Luca, Brera and Leon all suffered from under-development ( especially Nanase ). Ranka... well, more on her later. But as for the rest? Yay, they were all superb! The minor characters all had their moments were they got to shine, displayed their individual personalities very well and were just *fun* to watch. They made me smile and nod my head appreciatively a lot.

Alto got a lot of flak for being difficult to read and being non-decisive. But those same people mostly ignored his caring side and that he is a man of his word. I will admit, though, that his character development was very subtle and difficult to see during a lot of the series. His doubts for his own masculinity, not helped by being called "princess" by everybody, were not handled in the usual way, that he tried to be hyper-masculine. Instead, he was shown to depend on saving Ranka to prove his own worth. Later on, he seemed to recognize that he could let Brera do the protecting of Ranka and he just... mellowed out a lot. His hyper-defensiveness about his manlyness was shown much less, and he seemed to let himself be more relaxed around his friends.

Ranka. Well. She started out as someone who was working hard to realize her dream. A bit shy and naive girl, but adorably cute and friendly. But over the whole series, she never progressed beyond that. Her "love" for Alto always seemed to be nothing more than an idealized crush, and she always depended on others to get herself out of trouble. Of the three main characters, she was the least developed, because she never went anywhere in her development. At the end of the series, she still is mostly the same. Less shy and naive, perhaps, but while the other two mains had to confront their own short-comings, and came out better persons by that confrontation, Ranka never seemed to have those moments of self-introspection. Rather than that, she, again, had to be saved by Alto in the end.

Her only redemption is that she saved Sheryl-samas life by means of Magic Hax. As a reward she she gets to watch while Alto and Sheryl go off to live a happy domestic life and will hopefully finally move the f*** on. This partisan message was brought to you by...

And, finally, Sheryl. Quite frankly, the best character I have ever seen in an anime. Easily on par with great fictional characters from other sources, like Anakin Solo, Spike, Willow, Tyrion Lannister, Kai-Allard Liao, Cassie Suthorn, Phelan Kell, Londo Mollari and G'Kar.

Her personality combined a can-do indefeatable ego, humor, arrogance, humbleness, seductiveness, selflessness, vulnerability, indepence, helpfulness, compassion and much more into one awesome package. While her awesome self-confidence was a mayor selling point, her later humbleness and willingness to sacrifice herself elevated her even more. Seeing that she had a real shitty life during her childhood ( opposed to Ranka, who, y'know, had amnesia and couldn´t remember her former traumas ) made her rise to stardom even more impressive. Even if a lot of it was manipulated by Grace, the hard work and dedication to her craft came from Sheryl.

And after all of that, her innermost dream wasn´t to be the most famous songstress of the known universe, but to have someone to share her life with. I obviously believe that she did get that in the end, but it would have been nice from SK to show us that she did get her guy, instead of leaving it to us to logically deduce it. Mumblegrumblerassumfrassum....

Well, in any case, one awesome character, that Sheryl. I hope we get to see more of her in future OVAs. It would be a shame to have her fade away into our collective memories so soon.

Final Score: 9 Macross Frontier is definitely the best anime I have seen in many a year. Looking back at other animes, a very few had as lasting an impact as this one will have on me, and none ever made me get that obsessed with a pairing or a character. It had some flaws which prevented it from being rated a perfect 10 ( most obviously, the botched resolution to the romance ), but all other aspects did deliver.

I think it would be a great set-up for more Macross series, which could explore the universe beyond following the colonization fleets. The characters could stand more exposition and don´t seem played out yet at all. Sadly, Japanese series don´t deal in second seasons or follow-up series all that much, mostly because they don´t have to make sure their actors remain under contract continually. Seiyuus voices don´t change that much if you just wait two or more years to do another installment, so I expect this will have been the last Macross series for some time. Of course I believe in quality over quantity, but some more quantity would *really* be nice here, as long as the quality keeps up.

I think this is a series which can be used very well to introduce someone to the Macross universe. Of course the original series would in some regards be better, but the outdated visuals of SDFM could be a problem. Macross Frontier is so good that it should motivate new viewers to backtrack into the older series.

To finish:

SHERYL GANBATTE!

BOMBAAAAAA!

Edited October 4, 2008 by magnuskn

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Ozma is the best pilot in the series, but for a guy that just started flying VF's, Alto does not seem like the typical newbie. The guy is courageous, his valks do get damaged but even if he gets hit, he still keeps coming back. He puts up a hell of a fight early on in the series, and continues to towards the end. I think he was definitely a better pilot than both Luca and Michel, despite his lower rank. Those two didn't show very much piloting skills, just skill in sniping and surveillance if anything. The few times Luca did try to fight, he got owned, and Michel didn't do much piloting, instead, he mainly sniped. Alto was the one who used his VF for just about everything, made use of it's modes more, overall I think he was a better pilot and close in combatant. I think it was planned that way from the start though, months back someone metioned how Ozma had the heavy weapons, Michel would snipe, Luca would spy, and how Alto was the main fighter. It makes sense.

Alto's efforts in his fighters are admirable. He was not shabby the first time he took on Brera. He did alright against Klan's squad in mock combat.

It's hard to say whether he was a better pilot than Hikaru though. Hikaru managed to destroy an entire Zentraedi recon ship by himself, fought Kamujin to a stand still, and did a whole bunch of other stuff. Alto does seem more intense to begin with though. It's as if he has the impulsiveness of Isamu, the courageousness of both Hikaru and Kakizaki(yeah he sucked as a pilot but he was brave), and the determination and older sibling mentality of Roy(for example when Alto is determined to defy orders and save Luca in episode 7).

[magnuskn]

It's hard to say whether he was a better pilot than Hikaru though. Hikaru managed to destroy an entire Zentraedi recon ship by himself, fought Kamujin to a stand still, and did a whole bunch of other stuff. Alto does seem more intense to begin with though. It's as if he has the impulsiveness of Isamu, the courageousness of both Hikaru and Kakizaki(yeah he sucked as a pilot but he was brave), and the determination and older sibling mentality of Roy(for example when Alto is determined to defy orders and save Luca in episode 7).

Well, he isn´t on a level with Max or Miria ( but then, who is? ), but I´d definitely rank him with Hikaru.

[Scream Man]

yeah id agree with that. Hikaru level, under Isamu and Guld and FAR under Max.

[Gubaba]

Since Sheryl is living with Alto, I wish Ranka good luck in trying to steal Sheryls boyfriend. She´s going to need it.

BTW, would anybody who thinks the triangle has been reset state how *exactly* that reset happened? As far as I know, all the things between Sheryl and Alto didn´t magically un-happen. And Alto has not stated any renewed romantic interest in Ranka. "You both are my wings" means, AFAIAC, that Ranka is important to him, as a friend, IMO.

I don't think anyone's saying it's been "reset." At least, that's not the way I view it. I think the real problem is that a lot of people who prefer one girl over the other made a lot of inferences that may not really be there (I'm not saying they're not there, however...I have yet to go through all the love scenes with a fine-toothed comb). For example, if I thought Sheryl and Alto had slept together, then I would also believe that Sheryl had the upper hand by the end. But I don't think they slept together. And I don't think Alto thinks of Ranka as "just a friend," either. Sure, the Alto/Ranka relationship started off with a bang, then took a backseat, then got thrust in the spotlight again, then took a backseat again in the final episodes. But I don't see why he still can't love her just because she's been away for a few episodes (and even though, yes, he's living with Sheryl...and clearly loves her, too. By the way...will he and Sheryl continue to live together now that Frontier has found a suitable planet? Will Frontier take off again, or is it just staying for repairs and then going off back to space?).

So I think the fact that you wanted Sheryl and Alto to get together, and looked hard for signs that it would happen this way has led to you to...perhaps lend more significance to certain developments and possibly ignore others? Maybe? Not that I'm the know-all of the Macross F love triangle, but I think it's clear that he views Ranka as more than a friend (but not quite a lover). (Ditto Sheryl.)

True, most of the Ranka/Alto "action" happened in episodes 12~16, but as you say, it didn't magically "un-happen." They're important, and they matter as much as the Sheryl moments.

Now perhaps you can explain why, if Alto chooses Sheryl, the series ends a) without an explicit reference to that outcome, and b) the two girls singing "Triangler" as a duet, still asking Alto which one he's going to kiss?

[magnuskn]

I don't think anyone's saying it's been "reset." At least, that's not the way I view it. I think the real problem is that a lot of people who prefer one girl over the other made a lot of inferences that may not really be there (I'm not saying they're not there, however...I have yet to go through all the love scenes with a fine-toothed comb). For example, if I thought Sheryl and Alto had slept together, then I would also believe that Sheryl had the upper hand by the end. But I don't think they slept together. And I don't think Alto thinks of Ranka as "just a friend," either. Sure, the Alto/Ranka relationship started off with a bang, then took a backseat, then got thrust in the spotlight again, then took a backseat again in the final episodes. But I don't see why he still can't love her just because she's been away for a few episodes (and even though, yes, he's living with Sheryl...and clearly loves her, too. By the way...will he and Sheryl continue to live together now that Frontier has found a suitable planet? Will Frontier take off again, or is it just staying for repairs and then going off back to space?).

I´d like to think that they will continue to live together, yeah. And I also think that Sheryl will try to "release" Alto from his promise, now that she is cured, but by my line of thinking, he will use that occasion to confess ( would be awkward to do it in front of Ranka. ).

I don´t know why Frontier would want to go off into space again. They have to co-exist with the Vajra ( unless those really went away to mate for 10.000 years ), but that should be do-able. Also, a lot of islands were lost, so they don´t have too much choice, as they need them all for their ecosystem to function properly.

So I think the fact that you wanted Sheryl and Alto to get together, and looked hard for signs that it would happen this way has led to you to...perhaps lend more significance to certain developments and possibly ignore others? Maybe? Not that I'm the know-all of the Macross F love triangle, but I think it's clear that he views Ranka as more than a friend (but not quite a lover). (Ditto Sheryl.)

True, most of the Ranka/Alto "action" happened in episodes 12~16, but as you say, it didn't magically "un-happen." They're important, and they matter as much as the Sheryl moments.

The thing he feels for Ranka is... hazy. I can´t call it love in the romantic sense, because he doesn´t seem to be sexually attracted to her. It seemed to go into that direction in eps 12 - 15 ( 16 has him treating her like a child again, hell 15 has that already. ), but after those it cooled down, completely. Meaning that for the next 6 episodes, until Ranka ditched Frontier, he went back to treating her as the little sister he had to get out of trouble.

Even now, with the last episode, he never showed any sign of being physically attracted to her. I can only infer that he *does* love her, but in a platonic, brotherly way.

Now perhaps you can explain why, if Alto chooses Sheryl, the series ends a) without an explicit reference to that outcome, and b) the two girls singing "Triangler" as a duet, still asking Alto which one he's going to kiss?

Because Kawamori is a frelling troll. And it sells more to leave the shippers on edge, when the movie comes out. Best explanation I got, besides "SK believes in polygamy". I just don´t see Alto ending up with Ranka.

[Gubaba]

I´d like to think that they will continue to live together, yeah. And I also think that Sheryl will try to "release" Alto from his promise, now that she is cured, but by my line of thinking, he will use that occasion to confess ( would be awkward to do it in front of Ranka. ).

I don´t know why Frontier would want to go off into space again. They have to co-exist with the Vajra ( unless those really went away to mate for 10.000 years ), but that should be do-able. Also, a lot of islands were lost, so they don´t have too much choice, as they need them all for their ecosystem to function properly.

Enh, new Islands can always be built. But really, the only reason I wonder if they'll travel on is because if the movie is a continuation of the story, I just can't see it being planet-bound. Unless they find some really interesting rabbit hole and fall into Vajra Wonderland.

The thing he feels for Ranka is... hazy. I can´t call it love in the romantic sense, because he doesn´t seem to be sexually attracted to her. It seemed to go into that direction in eps 12 - 15 ( 16 has him treating her like a child again, hell 15 has that already. ), but after those it cooled down, completely. Meaning that for the next 6 episodes, until Ranka ditched Frontier, he went back to treating her as the little sister he had to get out of trouble.

Even now, with the last episode, he never showed any sign of being physically attracted to her. I can only infer that he *does* love her, but in a platonic, brotherly way.

Because Kawamori is a frelling troll. And it sells more to leave the shippers on edge, when the movie comes out. Best explanation I got, besides "SK believes in polygamy". I just don´t see Alto ending up with Ranka.

I agree with you that he doesn't love Ranka in a romantic sense, and I don't see him ending up with her either. Where we differ is that I don't see a whole of romantic feelings on his part for Sheryl, either. I know you believe that they slept together, but considering that she didn't want him coming near her bleeding finger, I really doubt they went any further than what the show, um, showed. He never initiated anything, and simply didn't show any interest in her sexually.

Throughout the entire series, Alto never showed any sexual interest in anyone. Hell, even Basara almost kissed Emilia (and that was mutual, unlike Sheryl's "Shock and Awe" kisses). Alto made no move on anyone, at any time. I know Sheryl was playing some serious mind games with him, so he may not have felt comfortable enough to make his feelings known (as I believe you suggested earlier), but still...we never saw him even close to trying anything, so any idea to the contrary is necessarily speculation.

But I don't think either of us will convince the other. I believe that you prepared yourself for a Sheryl ending, so that's what you got. Apparently, Ranka fans feel that Alto chose Ranka. I believe he chose both, or neither. As I said before, if the movie is a continuation, we'll find out in the first few scenes who was right.

Personally, I'd like him to end up with Sheryl. I'd also like Mylene to end up with Gamlin, but I can't find anything to show that she did. Ditto here.

Anyway, enough of that. Back to the REALLY important question...does Nanase still have a right eye, or not? DAMN YOU, HORY FROATING HEAD!!

[azrael]

Early leak of OST 2 can be found in the first post of this thread. It's also up at Tokyo Toshokan, minus scans, romanized track titles and no track numbering. Official release date is Oct. 8, 2008.

[VF-25 Messiah]

I´d like to think that they will continue to live together, yeah.

Whatever gave you the idea they were? As late as episode 23, Sheryl told Alto he wasnt allowed to go home, something she wouldn't do if they actually did live together. Conclusion: they don't.

[magnuskn]

Anyway, enough of that. Back to the REALLY important question...does Nanase still have a right eye, or not? DAMN YOU, HORY FROATING HEAD!!

Alto is difficult to read a lot of times. I think my interpretation is right, but what can I say? People are fallible, maybe I´ll get rolled by Kawamori in the movie.

But, yeah, let´s end it here. Eyepatch Nanase would be hot, IMO.

Whatever gave you the idea they were? As late as episode 23, Sheryl told Alto he wasnt allowed to go home, something she wouldn't do if they actually did live together. Conclusion: they don't.

Excuse me, but, huh? She did say ( Quoting the fansub ) "Don´t go. Stay by my side forever".

Okay, that is open to your interpretation of it, but I read it in a way that she simply wanted him to stay with her, forever.

[Gubaba]

Alto is difficult to read a lot of times. I think my interpretation is right, but what can I say? People are fallible, maybe I´ll get rolled by Kawamori in the movie.

But, yeah, let´s end it here. Eyepatch Nanase would be hot, IMO.

Be careful what you wish for...

[VF-25 Messiah]

Excuse me, but, huh? She did say ( Quoting the fansub ) "Don´t go. Stay by my side forever".

Okay, that is open to your interpretation of it, but I read it in a way that she simply wanted him to stay with her, forever.

Right before that, she asks him to stay by her side, she says 帰っちゃだめだよ。

帰る (1) to return; to come home; to go home; to go back; (2) (of a guest, customer, etc.) to leave; (3) (of a baseball player rounding the bases) to get home

Nothing much open to interpretation in that. You don't use that particular verb to someone who is already 'home'.

[magnuskn]

Right before that, she asks him to stay by her side, she says 帰っちゃだめだよ。

帰る (1) to return; to come home; to go home; to go back; (2) (of a guest, customer, etc.) to leave; (3) (of a baseball player rounding the bases) to get home

Nothing much open to interpretation in that. You don't use that particular verb to someone who is already 'home'.

As a non-Japanese speaker, I can of course only go by the fansubs. Both of them I have seen omit the "home", and they went by the closed captioning. So it´s a matter of interpretation, I´d say. In any case ( puts on shipper goggles ), after that he surely did stay with her.

[00X]

But I don't think either of us will convince the other. I believe that you prepared yourself for a Sheryl ending, so that's what you got. Apparently, Ranka fans feel that Alto chose Ranka.

I think that's Kawamori's point with leaving the triangle open ended. Instead of the show providing an answer to the viewers, the intention here is to let each viewer decide the answer for themselves. Yeah, "who does Alto end up with" is the question. Lanka? Sheryl? Maybe both? But it's a question the show is asking us, and there's no wrong answer.

...

Hah, now watch the movie totally resolve it.

[Nexx Stalker]

yeah id agree with that. Hikaru level, under Isamu and Guld and FAR under Max.

Everyone tends to forget that Nexx in a Metal Siren was able to keep at bay the entire Marduke fleet for a short time and to completely destroy all by himslef a Marduke command ship in ep.6 of Macross II. Not to mention that he even gets to command a Macross Cannon!

[Duke Togo]

Everyone tends to forget that Nexx in a Metal Siren

Its the fighter, not the pilot. Besides, its Macross II. We might as well add in Robotech pilots while we are at it.

[Final Vegeta]

BTW, would anybody who thinks the triangle has been reset state how *exactly* that reset happened?

Sheryl and Ranka decided it. Both: "It's a new beginning". Sheryl had to resolve her illness, Ranka her past. It's a move born out of fairness.

( besides the instantly transforming mecha, IMO... how exactly does that work from a point of friction and material stress? )

From the Compendium (VF-1's page): Fluid pulse actuators enable transformation.

It's a technology on par with Gundam's magnetic coating.

It would have fitted the epic build-up in episodes 22-24, but, alas, we are left to make sense of it on our own.

All this while the show keep telling you not to think with your head

Bad times end, love still exists, life is full of interesting challenges. This is what the end is about.

Nanase, Luca, Brera and Leon all suffered from under-development ( especially Nanase ).

Luca did have his development, he even lost his rosy cheeks. The only thing is that he developed becoming a bit of an evil guy, so he was even less likable than in the beginning. Not talking about the creepy kiss to a girl in coma. He improved going back to his usual self.

Leon is a power hungry villain, it's not like these guys suddenly become good, cool or deep. His kind of development consists in the influence he gains by killing his former allies and people he is brown nosing.

They could have done more with Brera. They could have emphasized his order obeying side, so that when he defected with Ranka in ep. 21 that would have been perceived as a development. I think episode 13 is the culprit, it shows Brera caring to much for Ranka too early, also giving away his brother status. I would have liked he was given the same treatment of Grace, who was revealed as a villain without hinting it.

Nanase was totally secondary.

Alto got a lot of flak for being difficult to read and being non-decisive.

That was his point. Haragei, belly art.

In one of his article for the ASAHI, Mr. Matsumoto suggested that HARAGEI is the product of a farming culture where farmers are expected to group themselves together to "group think," "group feel," "group behave," for a mutually shared goal. Climate and the religious traditions of Japan, especially Zen, have played their part in shaping this characteristic mode of expression. On the latter point, Mr. Matsumoto once wrote:

HARAGEI and ZEN mix well, for ZEN training begins with a rejection of intellection... including logic, reason, and any art of conceptualization or even verbalism. The more eloquent or more articulate you are, the further you tend of get away from the truth.

The school system has also left its mark. Japanese students are not encouraged to analyze things, much less to think on their own. They are supposed to feel. And this is at the heart of the matter. HARAGEI involves the communication of feelings and requires a good deal of sensitivity and intuition. This is perhaps best done when drunk, when the reason is paralyzed. But, drunk or sober, the goal is to merge on an emotional level to achieve an identity of feeling.

Doesn't this remind you of the Vajra?

I think Vajra are misunderstood on a conceptual level. It's not like they are a mind with multiple bodies, they simply agree with each other. Since they don't have a mind, they never argue or bicker, they always work for a common goal.

"The essence of life is not yes or no, but yes and no." "Why?" "Because yes means no and no means yes."

Haragei is social harmony. To achieve this, there are formulas in the behaviour and speech to prevent yourself from cornering others. Basically, you try not to stick out. Something for example you don't have done, you have been recognized several times as an annoying shipper To preserve social harmony, Alto is aiming for a win-win-win situation. That's the sense of Macross Frontier, not a trail of clues to find out which girl Alto has chosen.

and she always depended on others to get herself out of trouble.

She was just kidnapped a couple of times, something that happened to all Macross heroines

Of the three main characters, she was the least developed, because she never went anywhere in her development. At the end of the series, she still is mostly the same. Less shy and naive, perhaps, but while the other two mains had to confront their own short-comings, and came out better persons by that confrontation, Ranka never seemed to have those moments of self-introspection.

You've noticed it by yourself, she did have her development. She gained a bit of confidence, just as much not to become another person. At the start of the series she fainted a lot. Then she saved Alto in ep. 12, chose to sortie in ep. 18, left Alto in ep. 21 and slapped Sheryl in ep. 25. She also challenged Sheryl in the end. There are differences with the start of the series.

FV

[magnuskn]

Haragei is social harmony. To achieve this, there are formulas in the behaviour and speech to prevent yourself from cornering others. Basically, you try not to stick out. Something for example you don't have done, you have been recognized several times as an annoying shipper To preserve social harmony, Alto is aiming for a win-win-win situation. That's the sense of Macross Frontier, not a trail of clues to find out which girl Alto has chosen.

Well, I prefer sticking up for yourself and others, so haragei ain´t my cup of tea. I am not even sure that SK is praising that concept as something admirable, it rather seems that he just presents it as a valid alternative to individualism. At first glance at least, I cannot see praise towards the Vajra as a better alternative to how we live.

And I proudly ship Sheryl X Alto.

You've noticed it by yourself, she did have her development. She gained a bit of confidence, just as much not to become another person. At the start of the series she fainted a lot. Then she saved Alto in ep. 12, chose to sortie in ep. 18, left Alto in ep. 21 and slapped Sheryl in ep. 25. She also challenged Sheryl in the end. There are differences with the start of the series.

Compared to the other two mains, she still stayed rather stagnant. Yes, more self-confident, but I can´t see that she reached any insights into herself beyond that.

[-Snowblind-]

Compared to the other two mains, she still stayed rather stagnant. Yes, more self-confident, but I can´t see that she reached any insights into herself beyond that.

...How did the other two characters actually develop more than this, though? You learn more about their backgrounds and what makes them who they are, but fundamentally they don't change much.

As far as I can see, the Alto at the beginning of the series would still make the same decisions that the Alto at the end of the series would make. He still chose the sky over the girl (or his old life).

Sheryl had a bit more development, but she also had far more screen time toward the end of the series, not to mention impending death to move things along.

All in all, Ranka may have suffered from under-development (though as pointed out by FV, not as dramatically as some would make it out to be, but she didn't fare that much worse development-wise than the other two leads, and arguably far better than Alto.

[Shaka_Z]

I agree with you that he doesn't love Ranka in a romantic sense, and I don't see him ending up with her either. Where we differ is that I don't see a whole of romantic feelings on his part for Sheryl, either. I know you believe that they slept together, but considering that she didn't want him coming near her bleeding finger, I really doubt they went any further than what the show, um, showed. He never initiated anything, and simply didn't show any interest in her sexually.

to the contrary Gubaba. during the 'bedroom' scene, I am quite confident that Alto did in fact initiate a kiss, hence the whole 'camera pan up to give privacy' moment. before you take things too far, note that it was probably a really long, passionate kiss (no frenching was likely, but that technique isn't what I would consider passionate anyway), but it very likely went no farther than that for a number of reasons.

this all goes back to when I made the observation about Alto's brain suffering a BSOD whenever Sheryl launched a 'nome liplock attack' on him. it shows that he as certain issues with control and propriety - ie he feels a need to be the aggressor when it comes to these things... probably a side effect of his upbringing in kabuki where he always played female roles which are typically highly submissive. under the circumstances in the bedroom scene, with Sheryl (for once) in a state of nearly absolute submission, alto would be more comfortable with initiating a kiss of his own and not suffer a braincrash. although his eyes in that scene were really weirding me out, them oscillating between bulging-wide and squinty narrow like that makes me think that he was having a battle with himself as to what he should do given that:

a - she was an emotional wreck

b - she didnt seem to be wearing underwear (I doubt he changed her clothes and put her to bed himself after her collapse... probably a female servant in the house)

c - she needed him (not in the perverted sense lol)

Throughout the entire series, Alto never showed any sexual interest in anyone. Hell, even Basara almost kissed Emilia (and that was mutual, unlike Sheryl's "Shock and Awe" kisses). Alto made no move on anyone, at any time. I know Sheryl was playing some serious mind games with him, so he may not have felt comfortable enough to make his feelings known (as I believe you suggested earlier), but still...we never saw him even close to trying anything, so any idea to the contrary is necessarily speculation.

true that... he never really did show any outward interest in anyone except for that one scene on the futon - which is both unfortunately and admittedly debatable. all that can really be said is something happened to require the camera pan. I say Alto initiated a long passionate kiss, but not much else happened. maybe he held her for comfort/support for awhile afterwards... gave her a semi-intimate massage or something until she fell asleep (hell, I've done that - it's the best way to go 'exploring' and not get killed or obligated ). any which way it went however, he is on a far more intimate level with sheryl at the end than with ranka.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[Gubaba]

to the contrary Gubaba. during the 'bedroom' scene, I am quite confident that Alto did in fact initiate a kiss, hence the whole 'camera pan up to give privacy' moment. before you take things too far, note that it was probably a really long, passionate kiss (no frenching was likely, but that technique isn't what I would consider passionate anyway), but it very likely went no farther than that for a number of reasons.

Really? I don't remember that...I'll go back and check.

this all goes back to when I made the observation about Alto's brain suffering a BSOD whenever Sheryl launched a 'nome liplock attack' on him. it shows that he as certain issues with control and propriety - ie he feels a need to be the aggressor when it comes to these things... probably a side effect of his upbringing in kabuki where he always played female roles which are typically highly submissive. under the circumstances in the bedroom scene, with Sheryl (for once) in a state of nearly absolute submission, alto would be more comfortable with initiating a kiss of his own and not suffer a braincrash. although his eyes in that scene were really weirding me out, them oscillating between bulging-wide and squinty narrow like that makes me think that he was having a battle with himself as to what he should do given that:

a - she was an emotional wreck

b - she didnt seem to be wearing underwear (I doubt he changed her clothes and put her to bed himself after her collapse... probably a female servant in the house)

c - she needed him (not in the perverted sense lol)

Clearly I need to watch this scene again. I suspect that maybe you're seeing more than is actually there, but I'm really not sure.

true that... he never really did show any outward interest in anyone except for that one scene on the futon - which is both unfortunately and admittedly debatable. all that can really be said is something happened to require the camera pan. I say Alto initiated a long passionate kiss, but not much else happened. maybe he held her for comfort/support for awhile afterwards... gave her a semi-intimate massage or something until she fell asleep (hell, I've done that - it's the best way to go 'exploring' and not get killed or obligated ). any which way it went however, he is on a far more intimate level with sheryl at the end than with ranka.

I don't know about the camera pan, but I do agree that at that point he's more intimate with Sheryl than with Ranka...just as Hikaru was more intimate with Minmay when she was living with him. (And no, I don't think Hikaru and Minmay slept together, either. Yes, she's sleeping in his bed and wearing his shirt...but he's kipped out on the couch).

I've been basing my opinion more off the final episode than the ones before it...if you just look at episodes 22 to 24, then Sheryl clearly wins, since Ranka is essentially out of the picture. It's when she comes back that we get to see how the relationships have changed (or not). We also don't know what Alto was going to say to Sheryl in episode 24 (I suspect that whatever it was probably came out of his mouth at some point in episode 25, but again...that's speculation on my part). But his conversations with them in the last episode (such as they were), the final scene, Ranka's belief that the triangle was still open, and Sheryl's acceptance of that (dialogue I would've loved to have heard - Ranka: "I won't lose to you in singing, or in love." Sheryl: "Fine. You want my sloppy seconds, go right ahead, girl"), the use of "Triangler (fight on stage)" for the final song, the way the scene was framed...all of it indicates to me that Alto hasn't chosen yet, and may never.

And to be frank, I'm unlikely to alter that opinion anytime soon. Wait until I sit down and watch the whole series again, then we'll see. As I've mentioned before, I'm not the slightest bit opposed to an Alto/Sheryl ending (I'd prefer it, actually), but as much as I would like it to have happened, I don't think it did.

[wolfx]

The Triangle is unresolved. The ending proved so. If i were to ship either Ranka or Sheryl, i can give 101 examples of why Ranka OR Sheryl won the triangle but I don't.

I'm not sure why ppl are insistent that Alto slept with Sheryl. I mean OK, suppose they did have sex....so what? Modern culture dictates sex is like a past time. Ppl have sex all the time and sometimes ....ppl have sex when they are at their lowest in life and just need another warm body for comfort. Its not the 1s time in a story where the protagonist has sex with someone but ends up with another by the end of the story. Its a moment of weakness so to speak. I wanted to give Macross Plus as an example but i think rape doesn't count.

[Gubaba]

The Triangle is unresolved. The ending proved so. If i were to ship either Ranka or Sheryl, i can give 101 examples of why Ranka OR Sheryl won the triangle but I don't.

I'm not sure why ppl are insistent that Alto slept with Sheryl. I mean OK, suppose they did have sex....so what? Modern culture dictates sex is like a past time. Ppl have sex all the time and sometimes ....ppl have sex when they are at their lowest in life and just need another warm body for comfort. Its not the 1s time in a story where the protagonist has sex with someone but ends up with another by the end of the story. Its a moment of weakness so to speak. I wanted to give Macross Plus as an example but i think rape doesn't count.

No, no...Myung quite clearly slept with Guld of her own free will (in the story proper, of course. What happened in the flashback is obviously open to debate ).

That said, I really don't think Sheryl and Alto did it. Considering how she didn't even want him to come near her bleeding finger, I can't see that she would...um...let him share other bodily fluids with her.

(Question: If they had slept together, and Alto got the V-Virus, would he also become a Vajra Queen...?)

[dreamweaver13]

(Question: If they had slept together, and Alto got the V-Virus, would he also become a Vajra Queen...?)

Vajra Princess, of course.

[Major Focker]

(Question: If they had slept together, and Alto got the V-Virus, would he also become a Vajra Queen...?)

well, he's already a princess...

edit: sniped!

Edited October 6, 2008 by Major Focker

[magnuskn]

...How did the other two characters actually develop more than this, though? You learn more about their backgrounds and what makes them who they are, but fundamentally they don't change much.

As far as I can see, the Alto at the beginning of the series would still make the same decisions that the Alto at the end of the series would make. He still chose the sky over the girl (or his old life).

Sheryl had a bit more development, but she also had far more screen time toward the end of the series, not to mention impending death to move things along.

All in all, Ranka may have suffered from under-development (though as pointed out by FV, not as dramatically as some would make it out to be, but she didn't fare that much worse development-wise than the other two leads, and arguably far better than Alto.

Well, actually I think Alto advanced tons more than Ranka. At the end, Ranka had changed in exactly one aspect: She gained some self-confidence. She *still* has her crush on Alto, she *still* depended on being saved by Alto yet once again. Getting sudden magic hax out of nowhere doesn´t count as character development.

Alto, OTOH, has advanced from the angry, self-doubting young man he was, into a self-confident, mellowed out fellow. He conciliated himself with his actors past ( and his father apparently with his choice to become a pilot ), advanced into being a squadron leader, he accepted Frontier as his home and ( attention, shipping goggles on ) decided to go with one of the girls. Or at least that last should have happened, but SK trolled us hard at the end. I still think that made Michaels death all kinds of pointless...

I´ll refrain from commenting on the stuff from the other posters, seeing how the last argument turned out.

[wolfx]

Well, actually I think Alto advanced tons more than Ranka. At the end, Ranka had changed in exactly one aspect: She gained some self-confidence. She *still* has her crush on Alto, she *still* depended on being saved by Alto yet once again. Getting sudden magic hax out of nowhere doesn´t count as character development.

Alto, OTOH, has advanced from the angry, self-doubting young man he was, into a self-confident, mellowed out fellow. He conciliated himself with his actors past ( and his father apparently with his choice to become a pilot ), advanced into being a squadron leader, he accepted Frontier as his home and ( attention, shipping goggles on ) decided to go with one of the girls. Or at least that last should have happened, but SK trolled us hard at the end. I still think that made Michaels death all kinds of pointless...

I´ll refrain from commenting on the stuff from the other posters, seeing how the last argument turned out.

How about the series has nothing to do with who Alto chooses, but more of the dynamics between Sheryl, Ranka and Alto? I think it makes the show much better if viewed this way rather than through "shipping goggles".

I loved the fact that Sheryl who appeared as a self centered b***tch in ep 1 ( i remembered how folks here biatched about how biatchy she was during the deculture edition) turned out really just to be a girl who wanted to be normal. She may turn out all princesssy and arrogantly goes around saying "Who you think I am, I'm Sheryl Nome!!" but that's just a mask to her true self. The confident biatch is actually just a front for her insecurities. Then comes along Ranka, a person who has everything she never had. Friends, home, family, a normal life. When she finds out Ranka wants to be just like her, she selflessly helps because she sees a person who has to go through the same footsteps as her....urges her forward. Ranka views this as something kind coming from Sheryl but Sheryl does it because it reaffirms her position as an idol. She becomes conflicted between her feelings and the burden of being an idol especially when the role reversals happen between Sheryl and Ranka.

Ranka is more honest to herself throughout the series whereas Sheryl always puts up a "higher-than-thou" attitude which hides her true feelings. Its also because of this "mask" that she gets the confidence from. No doubt Sheryl appears confident but that's because of her upbringing and hinted brainwashing by Grace in ep 18. Sheryl is the tsundere archetype of anime whereas Ranka is the "moe-moe-genki". Ranka is truer to her feelings thus she appears more wishy washy and non-confident....but Sheryl envies Ranka for that trait and wishes she can be more like her when ironically, Ranka wants to be more like THE Sheryl Nome.

At the end of the day, I'll say both Ranka and Sheryl have balanced each other out and growed equally in the series. I can't really favour one from the other in this regard. Alto on the other hand just had to choose between flying and kabuki. Alto's dilemma was downplayed in the series and could've been done better IMHO.

[tankf77]

Well, actually I think Alto advanced tons more than Ranka. At the end, Ranka had changed in exactly one aspect: She gained some self-confidence. She *still* has her crush on Alto, she *still* depended on being saved by Alto yet once again. Getting sudden magic hax out of nowhere doesn´t count as character development.

Alto, OTOH, has advanced from the angry, self-doubting young man he was, into a self-confident, mellowed out fellow. He conciliated himself with his actors past ( and his father apparently with his choice to become a pilot ), advanced into being a squadron leader, he accepted Frontier as his home and ( attention, shipping goggles on ) decided to go with one of the girls. Or at least that last should have happened, but SK trolled us hard at the end. I still think that made Michaels death all kinds of pointless...

I´ll refrain from commenting on the stuff from the other posters, seeing how the last argument turned out.

C'mon guys.........there is nothing wrong with an unresolved triangular love....we just need to hammer SK for being so indecisive, that's all!!!

And let's not speculate what is NOT shown regarding Alto and Sheryl, it's just a gimmick by SK and co. to tease our imagination. Whether they did OR not, is really really open to debate. However, I tend to believe that it is impossible since she is infected.

[magnuskn]

At the end of the day, I'll say both Ranka and Sheryl have balanced each other out and growed equally in the series. I can't really favour one from the other in this regard. Alto on the other hand just had to choose between flying and kabuki. Alto's dilemma was downplayed in the series and could've been done better IMHO.

I´ll happily concede that the creators of the show made Alto hard to read. They handled his build-up more subtle than with Sheryl, but IMO it definitely was there.

And let's not speculate what is NOT shown regarding Alto and Sheryl, it's just a gimmick by SK and co. to tease our imagination. Whether they did OR not, is really really open to debate. However, I tend to believe that it is impossible since she is infected.

Well, there is an antidote for it, if it is in the early stages... Sheryls infection was just too advanced to be treated that way. And I still don´t completely buy the V-Type = AIDS analogy. It was never outright stated that it is transmitted by sexual contact. Let´s just agree to disagree here.

[tankf77]

I´ll happily concede that the creators of the show made Alto hard to read. They handled his build-up more subtle than with Sheryl, but IMO it definitely was there.

Well, there is an antidote for it, if it is in the early stages... Sheryls infection was just too advanced to be treated that way. And I still don´t completely buy the V-Type = AIDS analogy. It was never outright stated that it is transmitted by sexual contact. Let´s just agree to disagree here.

Ok man!!