Macross Frontier Series Discussion Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Gubaba]

I know this off topic slightly.

But I have been trying to convince my friends to watch Frontier but they all bashed it out and won't watch it because I'm mentioned (friend joke thing..) it. How the hell do I give a convincing argument on not to watch it?

Obviously saying its a awesome series with these popular voice actors and what not wont' help..

You've seen "A Clockwork Orange," haven't you...? Do what they did to Alex.

[unclechopchop]

I really don't want to sound like a jerk or anything, but I have to just get it out. After watching the first 10 episodes or so, I was pretty content with the show, but at episode 12, I felt like it really got lame. I mean what the hell was with the whole Zentradi thing? What was with Michelcoming down on the planet with speakers connected to his vf? I do understand that the original series had alot of cheese to it, but c'mon, we were kids and had no real problems looking past that. I just think it was a real step backwards. Macross 7 sucked, and everybody knows it. Macross Plus was totally awesome. Macross Zero was insane. They just kept getting better. I really want to enjoy this show, but it just was a big slap in the face to the original in episode 12.

Look, before everybody gets all riled up and pissed at me, just calm down. I'm simply stating an opinion. I just wanted to know if anybody else out there agrees with me.

[sketchley]

(...) but at episode 12, I felt like it really got lame. I mean what the hell was with the whole Zentradi thing? (...)

Funny... that (and the scene of Aruto training in the asteroid field and discovering a Zentradi wreck) really made the series for me (in that it has a memory of preceeding events in the overall Macross story).

I'm saying this not to contradict you, just to counterpoint: one man's garbage is another man's gold. (Not that I think the series is 100% perfect or anything.)

[Lacerta]

...After watching the first 10 episodes or so, I was pretty content with the show, but at episode 12, I felt like it really got lame. I mean what the hell was with the whole Zentradi thing? What was with Michelcoming down on the planet with speakers connected to his vf? I do understand that the original series had alot of cheese to it, but c'mon, we were kids and had no real problems looking past that.

I had a completely different reaction to episode 12, specifically the ending (what was that first generation Macross ship doing on Gallia IV anyway?) which delayed my normal sleep time by another hour. I had to watch the next two episodes to find out what was going on!

As for Michael landing with Ranka, with the speakers on the wings, sure it was loaded with cheese, but the reactions of the Zentradi soldiers was simply priceless.

I suppose my only question is, why did Grace plan on having Sheryl perform there? I'm certain she knew her arrival (and sudden illness) would spark a revolt, but what about her activation of the Dimension Eater after the departure of the Vajra? Did she just intend on the planet's destruction being an elaborate way for Sheryl to die?

[edwin3060]

Did she just intend on the planet's destruction being an elaborate way for Sheryl to die?

Apparently yes.

[Gubaba]

I really don't want to sound like a jerk or anything, but I have to just get it out. After watching the first 10 episodes or so, I was pretty content with the show, but at episode 12, I felt like it really got lame. I mean what the hell was with the whole Zentradi thing? What was with Michelcoming down on the planet with speakers connected to his vf? I do understand that the original series had alot of cheese to it, but c'mon, we were kids and had no real problems looking past that. I just think it was a real step backwards. Macross 7 sucked, and everybody knows it. Macross Plus was totally awesome. Macross Zero was insane. They just kept getting better. I really want to enjoy this show, but it just was a big slap in the face to the original in episode 12.

Look, before everybody gets all riled up and pissed at me, just calm down. I'm simply stating an opinion. I just wanted to know if anybody else out there agrees with me.

Oooh, deja vu!

I had a completely different reaction to episode 12, specifically the ending (what was that first generation Macross ship doing on Gallia IV anyway?) which delayed my normal sleep time by another hour. I had to watch the next two episodes to find out what was going on!

Oh Boo-frickin'-hoo. Some of had to wait any entire WEEK to find out what the WTF-1 was...and you can experience that week by reading the literary equivalent of all of us pulling out our hair HERE!

Good times, good times...

[VFTF1]

Well - I am now watching The Galaxy is Calling Me, and I'm glad I didn't watch this BEFORE Macross Frontier - since I would have EXPECTED Grace to be evil (or at least a pedophile) if I had seen Galaxy is Calling Me first

Pete

Edited January 19, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Well - I am now watching The Galaxy is Calling Me, and I'm glad I didn't watch this BEFORE Macross Frontier - since I would have EXPECTED Grace to be evil (or at least a pedophile) if I had seen Galaxy is Calling Me first

Pete

Hmmm? Don't you mean you're watching Dynamite 7...?

[VFTF1]

Hmmm? Don't you mean you're watching Dynamite 7...?

Oops Yes - I do.

It's just that I'm also watching Galaxy is Calling Me as well I'm basically watching everything. Ideon Be Invoked too

But - the ...err...Grace-look alike/act alike in Dynamite was spooky. She even had the same HAIR DO as Grace - and she pretty much had the same voice.

The only thing we don't know is whether Grace had the same lingerie?

Pete

[Gubaba]

Oops Yes - I do.

It's just that I'm also watching Galaxy is Calling Me as well I'm basically watching everything. Ideon Be Invoked too

But - the ...err...Grace-look alike/act alike in Dynamite was spooky. She even had the same HAIR DO as Grace - and she pretty much had the same voice.

The only thing we don't know is whether Grace had the same lingerie?

Pete

Erm...why are are you watching Ideon Be Invoked if you haven't watched the series yet? That's like watching the End of Evangelion without seeing the show!

And I guess I'm just not very observant...since I did watch Dynamite 7 well before I saw Frontier...and I still didn't figure out that Grace was the villainess until they started dropping hints like mad...

[VFTF1]

Erm...why are are you watching Ideon Be Invoked if you haven't watched the series yet? That's like watching the End of Evangelion without seeing the show!

Because my girlfriend got sick with the flue and begged me to Micronize and come visit her. She lives in the city. I live with hipp-cows on my farm. In the city, my mobile internet works far faster than on the farm, and since I have quickly cured her and she has taken 3 days off from work and asked me to stay till thursday to shower me with thanks, I am also taking advantage and getting as much anime downloaded as possible I have always wanted to see Ideon, but never had time - and probably won't have time until after seeing Gundam's myriad series. So - I figured I would take the quick and easy path to the Dark Side. I found the movie to be - er - very moving

And I guess I'm just not very observant...since I did watch Dynamite 7 well before I saw Frontier...and I still didn't figure out that Grace was the villainess until they started dropping hints like mad...

Well - if it's any consolation, you're not the only one. I read through all of the episode by episode discussions of Frontier as the series progressed and I don't remember anybody bringing up the similarity. Maybe people just don't watch Dynamite as often as they should? In any event - the similarity is so amazing

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

You've seen "A Clockwork Orange," haven't you...? Do what they did to Alex.

best.method.ever.

[dreamweaver13]

Oh Boo-frickin'-hoo. Some of had to wait any entire WEEK to find out what the WTF-1 was...and you can experience that week by reading the literary equivalent of all of us pulling out our hair HERE!

Good times, good times...

I still can't believe we lived through that and kept our sanity (well, somewhat).

[Gubaba]

I still can't believe we lived through that and kept our sanity (well, somewhat).

Yeah, most of us pulled though. But I don't think Duke Togo ever recovered...

[Lacerta]

Oooh, deja vu!

Oh Boo-frickin'-hoo. Some of had to wait any entire WEEK to find out what the WTF-1 was...and you can experience that week by reading the literary equivalent of all of us pulling out our hair HERE!

Good times, good times...

WOW...It's too bad I got to miss out on that wonderful experience! It surprised me to learn the thread went on for 14 pages before you all found out what "the WTF-1" really was.

Where I lived the past year put a damper on any Frontier watching, the internet where I worked was censored and restricted. I could view Macross World, but I didn't venture into the Series Forum to keep myself free of spoilers. I guess it worked!

[dreamweaver13]

I know this is probably old news to everyone, but all the same, check out the map of the Internet as seen in wikipedia:

Grace, are you there?

[edwin3060]

There's no central node for a superbeing to exist!

[anime52k8]

WOW...It's too bad I got to miss out on that wonderful experience! It surprised me to learn the thread went on for 14 pages before you all found out what "the WTF-1" really was.

Where I lived the past year put a damper on any Frontier watching, the internet where I worked was censored and restricted. I could view Macross World, but I didn't venture into the Series Forum to keep myself free of spoilers. I guess it worked!

I find it kind of Ironic how the l last thing in the thread is a discussion of inertial damping in macross and how they're a cop out, considering that's exactly the rout they went with the VF-25

[Kelsain]

I finally got the chance to go through and watch the whole series again, and I was quite surprised at how good the pacing was. Without the week-long waits and over-analysis, the story progressed much more smoothly than I remembered. No longer did episodes 15-19 seem to drag, but were an even expansion of character and motivation. While a little part of me still wishes for an episode 24.5 to give Galaxy A LITTLE more exposition; all-in-all, I think everything was handled just right!

Maybe a little pointless, but I thought I'd share!

[miles316]

I had a completely different reaction to episode 12, specifically the ending (what was that first generation Macross ship doing on Gallia IV anyway?) which delayed my normal sleep time by another hour. I had to watch the next two episodes to find out what was going on!

As for Michael landing with Ranka, with the speakers on the wings, sure it was loaded with cheese, but the reactions of the Zentradi soldiers was simply priceless.

I suppose my only question is, why did Grace plan on having Sheryl perform there? I'm certain she knew her arrival (and sudden illness) would spark a revolt, but what about her activation of the Dimension Eater after the departure of the Vajra? Did she just intend on the planet's destruction being an elaborate way for Sheryl to die?

Were those zentradi already cultured and part of the NUN forces station on the planet or were they demanding to here Sheryl sing for them in exchange for them excepting culture and disarming.

[Killer Robot]

Were those zentradi already cultured and part of the NUN forces station on the planet or were they demanding to here Sheryl sing for them in exchange for them excepting culture and disarming.

They were cultured Zentradi under NUNS authority. Just that according to Klan they were of a branch of the Zentradi that had consented late and grudgingly to UN authority and human culture, and were somewhat of a haven for restive elements. The concert was thus supposed to keep them happy and friendly, and Sheryl's illness was planned pretext for it to turn into a hostage situation which in turn was supposed to go tragically wrong.

As for the Dimension Eater, the apparent idea was that it would spark the deaths of a military division and a galaxy-famous celebrity, and leave a hive of angry Vajra following the fold trail to wreak havoc on Frontier. With her conspirators among the Zentradi killed as well, it would leave the appearance that it all was the fault of those mindless bugs. The big picture for her was to convince humanity that all-out war against the Vajra was inevitable, and could only be won by uniting under the fold quartz network that she would personally control. The losses of a colony fleet, a military division, and a household name were all part of getting all of humanity frightened and up in arms.

[Bri]

To be honest, It interests me more, too, but I don't really want to hijack the thread, either.

I dunno. Topics about how Frontiers sucks, or how character X from Frontier is useless can only go so far before they run out of steam, IMO...but that's just me.

This seems to be the right thread to crash in. And yes, being negative on a single aspect of frontier can only be productive for so long.

[Gubaba]

This seems to be the right thread to crash in. And yes, being negative on a single aspect of frontier can only be productive for so long.

Wow, that was fast.

I think one of the problems is that there are very few movies or (especially) TV series aimed at adults...we kind of forget what they look like. Sex and violence for its own sake seems more adolescent to me, as does nearly every Hollywood movie made in the last twenty or thirty years.

Now, Frontier's late-night time slot argues for an older intended audience. But the high-school aged cast argues for a younger intended audience.

But for me (and of course, this is only MY yardstick), what really pushes an artistic work into the realm of "intended for adults" is a focus on psychological realism, rather than on plot or entertainment value. If the work presents people who are more real than the people you meet every day, it will succeed as a mature work of art, regardless of other factors (things like plot tend to fall into place once you have real, breathing characters). I don't know of any anime that focuses solely on character ("Grave of the Fireflies," maybe...), but that isn't surprising. That isn't why people watch anime. Most people want some kind of escapism, and that's fine.

Ultimately, Frontier tells a story of adventure and derring-do, and tells it in a concise way. There's some experimental work in it, but not much. It may be meant for the 25 to 50 crowd, but I think it primarily appeals to the high school kid in all of them.

I want to stress that I'm not making a value judgment here. I loved Frontier, and I'll probably go on loving it. But it speaks directly to my inner urchin, and HE'S the one that tells me how great it is.

[Bri]

But for me (and of course, this is only MY yardstick), what really pushes an artistic work into the realm of "intended for adults" is a focus on psychological realism, rather than on plot or entertainment value. If the work presents people who are more real than the people you meet every day, it will succeed as a mature work of art, regardless of other factors (things like plot tend to fall into place once you have real, breathing characters). I don't know of any anime that focuses solely on character ("Grave of the Fireflies," maybe...), but that isn't surprising. That isn't why people watch anime. Most people want some kind of escapism, and that's fine.

Ultimately, Frontier tells a story of adventure and derring-do, and tells it in a concise way. There's some experimental work in it, but not much. It may be meant for the 25 to 50 crowd, but I think it primarily appeals to the high school kid in all of them. stre

I'm starting to understand the differences in our intents. When I refer to the target demographic I mean the physical ages and social positions of the viewers and buyers of the Macross Frontier DVDs and merchandise, not if they are watching this show through their inner child. It is certainly true that Macross Frontier appeals to the sense of adventure of the little boy inside every man.

I understand your position on psychological realism. However I am not sure if it is reasonable to assume this to be a requirement for the adult qualification in anime, movies or normal live action TV. The nature of the medium film (animation included) limits the possibilities in characterisation. Very few films reach the stage of such realistic characters and limit the time available for plot development. Screen time being one of the most scare resources a director can play with. Some of histories most acknowledged movies and filmmakers like Eisenstein, Riefenstahl and Hitchcock are often more know for their inventive use of film techniques rather then their challenge to the viewer’s intellect. Film is as much related to photography as to literature.

Literature has no visual limits and has less trouble with allowing characterisation and plot development to co-exist. Although it’s a bit ironic in this context that the first book to come to mind when talking about elaborate characterisation, Ullyses, compares the daily life of its protagonists to the escapist, fantasy like tale of Homers Odessy.

[Gubaba]

I'm starting to understand the differences in our intents. When I refer to the target demographic I mean the physical ages and social positions of the viewers and buyers of the Macross Frontier DVDs and merchandise, not if they are watching this show through their inner child. It is certainly true that Macross Frontier appeals to the sense of adventure of the little boy inside every man.

I understand your position on psychological realism. However I am not sure if it is reasonable to assume this to be a requirement for the adult qualification in anime, movies or normal live action TV. The nature of the medium film (animation included) limits the possibilities in characterisation. Very few films reach the stage of such realistic characters and limit the time available for plot development. Screen time being one of the most scare resources a director can play with. Some of histories most acknowledged movies and filmmakers like Eisenstein, Riefenstahl and Hitchcock are often more know for their inventive use of film techniques rather then their challenge to the viewer’s intellect. Film is as much related to photography as to literature.

Literature has no visual limits and has less trouble with allowing characterisation and plot development to co-exist. Although it’s a bit ironic in this context that the first book to come to mind when talking about elaborate characterisation, Ullyses, compares the daily life of its protagonists to the escapist, fantasy like tale of Homers Odessy.

Yeah, I agree completely...except about the Odyssey being escapist (Trojan War lit was an early specialty of mine in college).

technique is an important part of course, as you say; and one of the things I always liked about anime is that a lot of it is frankly avant garde. Lalah's death in MSG, a good portion of Flashback 2012, countless scenes in Evangelion, ALL of Lum the Forever...there's a lot of very innovative film work in anime, but I don't see much in Frontier, beyond the very well-done 3D/2D combination, and the way that some times in the show, the opening scene of the episode would actually fit in near the end of the episode ("Friendly Fire" did this especially well, I thought). What WAS truly innovative, I thought, was the use of every conceivable death flag for Ozma in episode 17, all to come to...nothing. Not only does it take courage for the creators to take a route like that, but it also shows trust in the audience and an appealing sense of playfulness.

That trust in the audience, and the gusto with which they subverted expectations, is the main thing that makes me see the intended audience of Frontier as being older than that of your average giant-robot-toy-commercial anime. It was definitely made for people who know their Macross, and especially for those who know their anime tropes. Which cuts out the young'uns.

[Bri]

Yeah, I agree completely...except about the Odyssey being escapist (Trojan War lit was an early specialty of mine in college).

technique is an important part of course, as you say; and one of the things I always liked about anime is that a lot of it is frankly avant garde. Lalah's death in MSG, a good portion of Flashback 2012, countless scenes in Evangelion, ALL of Lum the Forever...there's a lot of very innovative film work in anime, but I don't see much in Frontier, beyond the very well-done 3D/2D combination, and the way that some times in the show, the opening scene of the episode would actually fit in near the end of the episode ("Friendly Fire" did this especially well, I thought). What WAS truly innovative, I thought, was the use of every conceivable death flag for Ozma in episode 17, all to come to...nothing. Not only does it take courage for the creators to take a route like that, but it also shows trust in the audience and an appealing sense of playfulness.

That trust in the audience, and the gusto with which they subverted expectations, is the main thing that makes me see the intended audience of Frontier as being older than that of your average giant-robot-toy-commercial anime. It was definitely made for people who know their Macross, and especially for those who know their anime tropes. Which cuts out the young'uns.

Yes, I can only agree on the technique part. I think also a few themes in Macross which are interesting aswell. Macross'/Kawamori's recurring view on human beings for example. He shows a faith in mankind that is only rivaled by Roddenberry, quite unique in Science Fiction which tends to play on our fears and the darker side of our souls. Most anime tend not to put the blame on individuals but are seldomly positive about the human condition.

Another thing I like about Frontier is the challenge made by Kawamori to the audience. "So you have seen Macross, but did you learn from it?" by introducing a physically unatractive species which is hard to relate to. The flak Ranka received by leaving Frontier to communicate with the Varija by fans shows that at least some havent. It's painful that culture-less warriors like the Zentradi had less trouble to accept Myria as a interspecies ambassador then the humans of Frontier with Ranka. Byrons "If beauty is truth then beauty is all I need to know" still holds.

[Zor Primus]

I just watched the last episode last night. I gave the overall series a 9. I guess you can chalk up that loss of a point for lack of a bit more closure at the end, namely who does Alto end up with lol...

Overall the plot and twist were very cool...made it seem more like a civil war then an intergalactic conflict.

The music was great throughout the series, sadly sometimes the quality of the streams I saw prevented me to appriciate the animation but looking at other threads I think I've found some decent places to get something with better quality to download and put on a DVD.

Mecha...wow...all the VF's were sweet, the idea of a sniper unit was awesome. I'm still a little shy on which unit belonged to who, further research will allow me to comment more at a later date. The Zentran Queadluun armor for both females and males were nice to see advanced and updated, although would have liked to have seen a Regult or Glaug somewhere in the mix.

Characters, loved them all...no favorites...all kick ass...although I prefer Sheryl over Ranka (Iknow its a hot debate)

Animation...probably a 10...when I watch the series with better quality I'm sure its perfect.

The Vajra, luckily was explained at the end in detail and they were a serious enemy...kinda like the Borg. It was really eerie at the to hear Do You Remember being used against the Frontier.

Also, what are the NUNS? Are theyUN Spacey? and why aren't they bad ass.

More later when I repeat

Edited April 28, 2009 by Zor Primus

[DarkReaper]

Any relevance? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra

[RedWolf]

Any relevance? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajra

Diamond... thunderbolt Its been brought up before.

Well the Japanese word Basara is derived from Vajra.

But in-story explaination of Macross Frontier Vajra and Ranka are part of the original lyrics of Aimo.

As her disease spreads in her body Ranshe manages to learn deeply about Vajra.

[Macross007]

Also, what are the NUNS? Are theyUN Spacey? and why aren't they bad ass.

1 - NUNS = New United Nation Spacy.

2 - According to Ozma ''the MAN'', NUNS pilots are a bunch of cowards without any sense of teamwork. Not sure if we can consider that an answer especially coming from Ozma ''the MAN''.

[RedWolf]

Well UN Spacy likely got a rename after VF-X2 in 2050-51. Corrupt UN Spacy officer Wilbur Garland did a attempted coup on Earth.

UN Spacy had problems with corrupt officials and inept leadership since Macross Plus and Macross 7.

1. General Gomez tried to replace pilots with AI fighters. (2040)

2. UN Spacy HQ abandoned Macross 7 fleet and ordered them a suicide mission to destroy the Protodevlin. (2046)

3. UN Spacy HQ ordered all remaining uncultured Zentradi fleets destroyed. (Subverted by Basara and Exsedol. Winning the hearts of an entrire Meltran fleet.)

4. Col. Bacelon performs illegal experiments and collaborates with the enemy to create a Zentradi rebellion in Macross 7.

5. Col. Barton is a military supremacist ego maniac. Negligently endangers Macross 7 just to get back at Basara. Did a conspiracy to create an Evil Series bio-weapon. Almost kills Doc Chiba as a witness.

Even before that UN Spacy dabbled in bio-weapons in 2022. (Macross M3)

The NUNS pilots in Macross Frontier are utterly green. SMS having most of the veteran pilots.

With the bungles in the 2040's and early 2050's the NUNG finally had enough placing greater civilian oversight on the military.

These reforms led to the rename.

[VFTF1]

Also, what are the NUNS? Are theyUN Spacey? and why aren't they bad ass.

For the answer, see Alto's remark to Luca in Episode 4, Miss Macross:

"Capitalism at work, eh?"

NUNS is a government outfit. Government is always financed either through direct coercive taxation or through indirect taxation (deficits and monetary inflation). Translation into laymans' terms: Government will always have money whether they do a good job or not because government gets money by taking it from other people. Therefore everything government does will ALWAYS be - at best - inefficient - including running valkyrie squadrons.

This isn't because NUNS pilots are all inferior while SMS pilots are superior. It would be silly to presume that all of the stupid and bad people went to NUNS and the smart ace pilots all went to SMS.

Rather - this simply means that SMS functions on the basis of real-world incentives and price signals. NUNS functions on the basis of budgets that have nothing to do with their management choices and everything to do with political control and coercion. To look at it another way: let's say you ran a grocery store. Let's also say that all the people in your town were forced by law to visit your store once a week and spen 100 bucks there. Since you know they have to come and have to spend, you really don't care what they spend it on and you certainly don't care about what they really need (what is really in demand).

More - the people who supply you will artificially inflate their prices because they KNOW that you are guaranteed customers who are forced to "buy" from you. Since you are guaranteed this money - then the suppliers can jack up their prices and even disregard the quality of what they are selling to you (since it will be "bought" no matter what).

Now take this example into the realm of NUNS and valkyrie. The mecha that NUNS have is shoddy because the producers probably got their contract through connections and not competition. Either they financed a political party, or they have some other kind of friendly ties to those in power. Therefore, they don't care about producing quality mecha and good prices because they know they will get their money no matte what they produce - so long as it nominally does what it's supposed to.

Meanwhile, SMS, even though it has a rich sponsor, is managed on the basis of real-world prices and financial incentives. It is basically a market insitution.

As for morale - the people in NUNS are likely a mix of three types: a) idealists who want to defend the colony and the women, b) people who chose the military rather than working at the proverbial Macdonalds, c) people who are somewhere in between - a bit of idealism, a desire for financial security. These people probably have various skill levels - certainly it is not possible to say that all of them are unskilled or cowardly. However- upon entering the government-funded system which is NUNS, they fall prey to a million insanities caused by the beauracratic nature of the institution. The mecha is in constant disrepair and it seems impossible to weed out the bugs. People are more interested n their careers than in improving things and - unlike in a market situation where the only path to career advance IS improving things for your customers - here it's the opposite.

SMS doesn't have this problem.

It was pretty much the same on the Macross in SDFM TV. All that UN Spacey could do was get people killed and blown up. Yeah, they built the VF-1 - but they had to steal the technology from the Anti-UN and create a global monopoly on over-technology under the guise of "sharing" technology with the world (but really - look at how it turned out - it basically turned out as "all technology belongs to the UN - if you don't give us yours - we're gonna kill you").

And even with this technology - they achieved nothing. They barely got the Macross off the ground, and the thing folded to Pluto leaving Earth defenseless. Oh - wait - there was the Grand Cannon. Fat lot of good that did. And it probably cost half of Earth's population's food and comfort. Then the UN Spacey got Earth nuked because they refused to listen to Misa and Global.

On the flip side - what ultimately stopped the Zendradi wasn't the government (coercion) but market forces (voluntary interaction). Minmey didn't force the Zendradi to like her songs, she didn't compell them to become cultured - she managed to CONVINCE them (move them) with her singing.

Bassara does the same in M7 - and of course the government attempts to copy cat it - but you can't copy the flaming love heart of Nekki Bassara by government fiat - thus Jamming Birds is a failure.

This isn't to say that ALL THE PEOPLE (individuals) in UN Spacey or NUNS are corrupt. Nor is it to demonize all situations. There were heroic UN Spacey pilots and courageous individuals who made a difference and managed to beat the odds and do something good despite the system. But that system was stifling and restrictive and on the whole did more harm to humanity than good.

In Macross Frontier - that system is completely falling apart. Space Colonies are more independent of one another, and even the military is finally privatized (the first step towards this was in Macross 7 where we saw during the carnival episode that people owned their own Custom Mecha - it wasn't just that only the government could own the stuff).

So..I'm sure it's the same with NUNS - they're not all cowards and they don't all suck. But the system they function in is counterproductive and difficult to live with.

But towards the end of Frontier they do manage to kick ass anyways

Pete

[azrael]

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=29229

The UN didn't exactly break down. Kawamori says that UN adapted itself into NUN as the universe got bigger for humans. Controlling hundreds of worlds (and fleets) from Earth isn't feasible anymore given the distance between the colonies and Earth. It wasn't a a coup, but the human world realigning itself to the galaxy at large. You can't govern a new world from afar. In essence, it became much like our modern UN. Colonies are members of the NUN, but they are free to govern their own worlds as they wish.

[No-Brand Hero]

And even with this technology - they achieved nothing. They barely got the Macross off the ground, and the thing folded to Pluto leaving Earth defenseless. Oh - wait - there was the Grand Cannon. Fat lot of good that did. And it probably cost half of Earth's population's food and comfort. Then the UN Spacey got Earth nuked because they refused to listen to Misa and Global.

Without the Grand Cannon, the Macross wouldn't have won that last big battle. The Grand Cannon blew a giant hole in the Zentradi defense perimeter which allowed the Macross and Britai's fleet to attack Bodolza's flagship with only what few ships could be quickly moved into said hole standing in their way.

On the flip side - what ultimately stopped the Zendradi wasn't the government (coercion) but market forces (voluntary interaction). Minmey didn't force the Zendradi to like her songs, she didn't compell them to become cultured - she managed to CONVINCE them (move them) with her singing.

Without the government, Minmay wouldn't have had anything to STAND ON while she was exerting those 'market forces'

[RedWolf]

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=29229

The UN didn't exactly break down. Kawamori says that UN adapted itself into NUN as the universe got bigger for humans. Controlling hundreds of worlds (and fleets) from Earth isn't feasible anymore given the distance between the colonies and Earth. It wasn't a a coup, but the human world realigning itself to the galaxy at large. You can't govern a new world from afar. In essence, it became much like our modern UN. Colonies are members of the NUN, but they are free to govern their own worlds as they wish.

They were called NUN or NUNG to begin with after Space War 1. The name change from UN Spacy to New UN Spacy implies reforms from the original organization. (They didn't change it after Space War 1.)

In Macross 7 military fleet commanders were answerable to UN Spacy Earth HQ. In Macross Frontier the admiral was answerable to the local state President.

As I stated above there were too many frak-ups from the military organization to be ignored.

Wilbur Garland's treason could have been the final straw towards a shorter leash for the military by the NUNG.

That's why PMC outfits like SMS are hired. At least theoretically they do as they are told as stated in the contract. (Not that it did a lot a good for Leon as Bilrer warned Mr. Pirate Jeffrey Wilder as a last hidden frak you that they are becoming government owned. )