Macross Frontier Series Discussion Thread *READ 1st Post*

[fadeout]

Frankly, it bugs me a lot that people don't really know what they are talking about when they use the word "shojo" (maybe you come from 4chan?). Most famous school life anime are either from shonen magazines (for boys) or seinen magazines (for adult males) or even from eroge (for males). Just check the demographic of a title with Wikipedia and you'll be surprised.

Trust me on this one: heterosexual love without incest -> most likely for male audience. This is why the characters of Gundam 00 are aimed at a girl audience for example, the homosexual relationship between Lockon and Tieria dominates all other possible ships.

...I've seen enough anime that I think I can tell what kind of story elements are intended for what audiences. Damn near every shojou romance title out there has something to do with a school. I also meant that the whole Alto/Sheryl/Ranka dynamic smacks of it, because it's focused totally on the womens' anguish due to the ineptitude of the (very very bishounen) male. Ranka and Sheryl's desparation is something that would strike a chord most with female audience members, yes?

Maybe they got accustomed to? Even in SDF Macross Hikaru was shocked when he first confronted a Zentradi face to face, but then he pull himself together for the rest of the anime. I think the anime was focused instead of showing attrition in the surrounding world.

You don't get "accustomed" to war and fighting. Ask any Vietnam vet. I would have liked to see more physical/emotional deterioration on the part of the pilots, but that's probably a bit much to ask from Macross.

You are misunderstanding even this one. There is a conflict between two styles of communication, one based on the belly (emotions), the other based on the head (thoughts). In Japanese there is a word, haragei (belly art), which means "comunication without words or gestures". If you watch anime, you should have found many cases where victory is achieved through co-ordinated team playing. In the final episode of MF all good guys are essentially doing team playing, like the Vajra were doing from the start. The opposite is Grace's implant network, which forces people together without the need for feelings of bond.

Right, and almost every show out there includes team playing, it's a pretty central part of human civilization. But if you remember the Zentradi revolt, Temzin(?)'s dying words regarded the fundamental inability of two species to co-exist without conflict. That came up again and again, but when they finally found the means to communicate with the Vajra, they were able to defeat the common enemy. This I saw as reflecting our own inability to "listen" to what the other life on this planet tells us, and the conflict that arises from it.

[Killer Robot]

You don't get "accustomed" to war and fighting. Ask any Vietnam vet. I would have liked to see more physical/emotional deterioration on the part of the pilots, but that's probably a bit much to ask from Macross.

More aptly, look at any military camp where there's food to eat and the shells aren't currently flying: you'll see joking, playing games, enjoying the company of friends, enjoying the occasional package from home and looking fondly back and forward to better times. In short, you see people going about their lives, and as much as possible enjoying the respite they have. They're stressed, and a lot of the laughter is a venting of that stress; they're certainly different people than when they signed up; and some of them may snap under eventual pressure, or carry deep scars for life. Also, certainly, under unrelenting all day and everyday pounding, they'll be worn down, among other things because they're not getting that respite of normality: from what SDFM seemed to show, even the Zentradi got their time to go to the barracks, get a drink, and shoot the bull with their buddies.

The common fictional approach of "in wartime everyone swiftly deteriorates into broken shells of their former selves" is as much an oversimplification as stories where everyone is bravely unmoved from the start, and in a series like Macross with such a central message that while war might not always be avoidable there has to be more to life than bleak fighting for survival, it would be even more out of place. Frontier was somewhere in between: people were traumatized and as the story went on and things got more desperate they showed more stress and episodes of good cheer became both fewer and more commonly strained or affected. It might not have been the most detailed and realistic possible portrayal, but I found it both believable and prominent.

[Mr March]

I'd agree. Expecting a Battlestar Galactica-style atmosphere from the cast in Macross Frontier is completely missing the point Macross is trying to make. Even Macross Plus, arguably the most dour and downbeat installment of the franchise, always made it a point to extol the virtues of optimism and culture rather than labor under conflict-induced depression. If any Macross series should be criticized for glossing over the horrors of battle and ignoring the stresses of war it would be Macross 7. In Macross 7, hundreds of pilots are killed and dozens of ships are destroyed, yet no one bats an eye. When the SMS arrives to rescue the Galaxy fleet in Macross Frontier, the loss of a single escort ship to an attacking Vajra Carrier is felt like an emotional bomb among the entire crew. For a children's show, I think Macross Frontier hit the notes well.

[sketchley]

(...) For a children's show, I think Macross Frontier hit the notes well.

Not to take away from the rest of the arguement, but how is Macross F a children's show? Even the time slot it was broadcast in (1:25 to 1:55 in the morning) indicates that it's demographic is not children.

[Gubaba]

Not to take away from the rest of the arguement, but how is Macross F a children's show? Even the time slot it was broadcast in (1:25 to 1:55 in the morning) indicates that it's demographic is not children.

Don't you remember getting up REALLY REALLY early to watch cartoons when you were a kid? Japanese tots just get started earlier.

[sketchley]

Don't you remember getting up REALLY REALLY early to watch cartoons when you were a kid? Japanese tots just get started earlier.

You're not helping.

[Morpheus]

Not to take away from the rest of the arguement, but how is Macross F a children's show? Even the time slot it was broadcast in (1:25 to 1:55 in the morning) indicates that it's demographic is not children.

Not to mention there are scene which are not quite appropriate for children, eg. Alto-Sheryl locker scene, Gilliam being 'juiced' by Vajra.

[azrael]

Not to take away from the rest of the arguement, but how is Macross F a children's show? Even the time slot it was broadcast in (1:25 to 1:55 in the morning) indicates that it's demographic is not children.

Although, most stuff at the late-night hour are basically 25-minute commercials....

[sketchley]

In Japan? Naa. There's some interesting shows on at that time. I'd go so far as to say that the 24:00 to 02:00 time period is the breeding ground for prime time (09:00 to 24:00) shows.

Though, I watch AXN, as they've got a great line-up from 01:00 ("The Shield", "CSI", "CSI: Miami").

[Zinjo]

You don't get "accustomed" to war and fighting. Ask any Vietnam vet. I would have liked to see more physical/emotional deterioration on the part of the pilots, but that's probably a bit much to ask from Macross.

Firstly you've already answered one of your points about society reacting the same when the Vajra swarmed the ship. As for physical/emotional deterioration, one must keep in mind the Vajra fought somewhat like guerillas throughout. The pilots and soldiers were not fighting a prolonged conflict but rather a series of sorties over a period of time. Then there is the fact that only so much screen time could be devoted to the social impact of the battles. Essentially Kawamori had to decide what was most important to progress the plot.

Finally, as with most network TV shows, it was somewhat santized compared to how the story would have been shown in an OVA format, which is traditionally much shorter and much less restricted by TV censorship.

This show is far closer in tone to SDFM as compared to Mac 7 or even several of its anime contemporaries.

One thing I did notice that it was very close to becoming rather flat until Kawamori brought in his buddy to flesh out Sheryl more and thus gave her the most dimension of all the characters.

[fadeout]

Firstly you've already answered one of your points about society reacting the same when the Vajra swarmed the ship. As for physical/emotional deterioration, one must keep in mind the Vajra fought somewhat like guerillas throughout. The pilots and soldiers were not fighting a prolonged conflict but rather a series of sorties over a period of time. Then there is the fact that only so much screen time could be devoted to the social impact of the battles. Essentially Kawamori had to decide what was most important to progress the plot.

Finally, as with most network TV shows, it was somewhat santized compared to how the story would have been shown in an OVA format, which is traditionally much shorter and much less restricted by TV censorship.

This show is far closer in tone to SDFM as compared to Mac 7 or even several of its anime contemporaries.

One thing I did notice that it was very close to becoming rather flat until Kawamori brought in his buddy to flesh out Sheryl more and thus gave her the most dimension of all the characters.

Guerilla warfare actually tends to take a worse toll on the soldiers it is used on, that's one of its biggest advantages. Getting inexperienced soldiers to the hights of fear, and then back to stability over and over again tends to have profoundly negative effects (hence my reference to Vietnam). And I mentioned before that a lot of screen time was devoted to Sheryl and Ranka. However Alto and the other pilots sort of got the shaft, Luca hardly got any development at all, and the others seemed to ultimately fall flat. I don't see it as a matter of "sanitization" either, given the content of a lot of shows seemingly aimed at children over there...

But either way, after watching some of M7, I have gained a lot more appreciation for Frontier. It's like they took the original series, ground it up, and mixed it with coke and everything that was bad about the '80s.

[YJK]

Just watched episode 25 of Frontier.

Holy CRAP that was epic.

O_O

I gotta watch that all over again.

Hell, I'll watch the whole series again (though part of that is because I didn't quite understand what Mishima's plan was, and how that benefitted Grace O'Connor).

[Killer Robot]

Just watched episode 25 of Frontier.

Holy CRAP that was epic.

O_O

I gotta watch that all over again.

Hell, I'll watch the whole series again (though part of that is because I didn't quite understand what Mishima's plan was, and how that benefitted Grace O'Connor).

Mishima's plan was pretty simple: Capitalize on times of crisis to hide his assassination of President Glass, settle a new world, and gain total power over a whole world , beloved by his people for leading them to the storm to a paradise of blue skies and fold quartz. What he didn't know was that Grace was trying to lead Frontier into a trap, letting them get killed to help establish the Vajra to the rest of humanity as a threat which they could only confront through fold implant technology that she and the Galaxy conspiracy could in turn take control through. Though actually that was in part a modified plan, since the Gallia IV incident was supposed to also make Sheryl's high-profile death and the near or complete destruction of Frontier as the angry Vajra came after the fleet.

Okay, you've partly got me there on the last. I get the general gist of Grace's ambitions, but the fine details, especially with how her plans had to be revised over time with like the discovery of Ranka and intended discarding of Sheryl, make much of her plotting feel like the "Step 2: ????, Step 3: Profit!" variety. Maybe someone else can help you there. But Mishima was after a basic power grab where he'd capitalize on and then solve a fleet-threatening crisis, never dreaming that Grace really just wanted to sacrifice the whole fleet to gain galactic domination.

[chukissaki]

Well, I am one of the geezers that got started with RT back in the 80s. I remember forcing my dad to take me to the comic store, where I would spend my $$ on "veritechs" called Valkyries and packaged in "Macross" boxes ahh, the good ol days.

I just finished MF and it was awesome. I personally like all the little throwbacks that pay homage to SDFM. I can't wait for the movie version.

[Chokinzoku SG-01]

Here is a question. And if this was answered before, I apologize, I couldn't find it using search. Is there a remote chance that Richard Bilrer is in fact Breetai and that's why he keeps a picture of Minmay and looks forward to meeting her again using the Vajra's fold communication network? They both have an eye patch on the same exact side. Besides, how many aging Zentraidi would be obsessed with Minmay to this extent? If the answer to my question is yes, does that mean that we can expect that in the Macross F movie this summer the original cast of Minmay, Hikaru and Misa will be discovered aboard the Megaroad 01?

If so, Big West is going to have a massive theatrical run on their hands this summer. Fans who haven't paid attention to the series since 84 will be coming out of the woods to see Minmay and crew on screen. Just imagine the ending song, with Minmay, Ranka and Sheryl going all out.

Thoughts on this scenario playing out this summer at multiplexes all over Tokyo? See photos below:

Bilrer_09.bmp

minmay09.bmp

[Mr March]

Funny, I would have thought more people would say Ogotai was actually Britai, since they appear almost identical

I think Birla is a parody character; I get the sense that he may represent us. More specifically, the older Macross fans. He's older than the rest of the cast and he's a working man, yet he's still obsessed with what happened to Minmay. In that respect, he is a composite character of the real old-school Macross fans, most of us are older now, have real jobs and many of us are still curious what happened to Minmay and the others. I think Birla is more that than anything else.

[Killer Robot]

Even addressing Bilrer(Birla? Isn't romanization fun?) from an entirely in-universe perspective, he really has no resemblance to Britai other than having that right-side eye replacement. I would imagine that having a lingering obsession with Minmay isn't strange for older Zentradi: they are the ones who were won over by human culture, with Minmay as the prime face and name they could associate with the strange and compelling new experience. Mind, this puts him in the somewhat unbalanced role of an old man still stalking his first crush across the galaxy, but if anything we know by now that Zentradi are quite capable of becoming deranged fanboys. (Britai, by the way, didn't show signs of being one: he saw the power of human culture, allied with humanity in self-preservation, and remained loyal thereafter, but I don't recall him getting all obsessed with Minmay.)

Really, given the surname I'd more wonder if Elmo is a son of, or out of the same production ancestry as, Britai, and if so what the elder Kridanik would think of the younger. Actually, scratch that: I want the next Macross series to be a comedy set in the 2020s, about Britai balancing his role of UN Spacy commander with the new position his long military experience had never prepared him for, marriage and children! Okay, I don't really want a Britai sitcom. But one episode would be hilarious, like one of the Triangler drama that's so big in 2059.

P.S. - By contrast, in viewing Bilrer as the in-universe reflection of the aging Macross fan let us not forget that he used the wealth of his successful career on Valkyries and Queadluuns and that scale-model Macross. Look in there, even that tiny little captain looks so authentic!

[Beltane70]

A friend of mine and I were having this very argument about Birla/Vrithwai being the same person just last night. He's convinced that they're the same person, while I say he they aren't.

[Mr March]

P.S. - By contrast, in viewing Bilrer as the in-universe reflection of the aging Macross fan let us not forget that he used the wealth of his successful career on Valkyries and Queadluuns and that scale-model Macross. Look in there, even that tiny little captain looks so authentic!

I agree. Even Birla's "lair" is filled with "toys".

If Birla wasn't meant to be an in-joke for the old school Macross fans, it's extremely ironic that he mirrors us in so many ways, both subtle and overt. But I'm fairly sure he's supposed to be us, much like the "director" character shooting the Macross Zero production is supposed to be Kawamori.

[Zinjo]

But either way, after watching some of M7, I have gained a lot more appreciation for Frontier. It's like they took the original series, ground it up, and mixed it with coke and everything that was bad about the '80s.

It's been my experience that those who've never lived in the 80's (toddlers don't count) tend to be the first describe it as bad, yet fully embrace the "new" recycled fashions from that era today....

Granted the decade had it's issues, but nothing like decade we are in now!

Though now that March mentions it, Brilier is definitely the old-school Macross fan. Just like the Birdman director was Kawamori...

Edited January 12, 2009 by Zinjo

[Lacerta]

It's been an incredibly long time since I've posted here! I avoided Macross World while Frontier was airing, mainly because where I was located (i.e. somewhere in the Middle East) and felt it would be better to watch it when I got home.

Now that I've been home since October, a friend of mine gave me a link to a site that broadcasts anime, and I finally got to watch it, and of course, read about what you all thought.

Frontier was awesome, I rated it a '10' because it seemed to have exactly what I wanted out of a Macross series, (except, perhaps, a resolution to the triangle, and what *did* happen to the Megaroad 02?) and left me wanting more. More toys, perhaps! I showed Frontier to my brother, and he predicted Ozma's death at least 3 times ("the pineapple curse is broken!" he said), not to mention him thinking ai-kun was one of the Vajra from the outset.

Now I'm waiting like everyone else, for the movie.

[Killer Robot]

As a separate aside inspired by another thread, something I missed in Frontier was someone singing....badly. SDFM had Exedol singing "My Boyfriend's a Pilot", Macross 7 had Gigil, and by the end about everyone else, singing off-key Fire Bomber, then in Frontier, the closest you get is an offscreen single of Bobby trying to disturb everybody. What gives?

[Gubaba]

As a separate aside inspired by another thread, something I missed in Frontier was someone singing....badly. SDFM had Exedol singing "My Boyfriend's a Pilot", Macross 7 had Gigil, and by the end about everyone else, singing off-key Fire Bomber, then in Frontier, the closest you get is an offscreen single of Bobby trying to disturb everybody. What gives?

What about the Zentradi Enka singer? Doesn't he count?

[edwin3060]

What about the Zentradi Enka singer? Doesn't he count?

Just because you can't appreciate the music doesn't mean it's bad singing!

[Gubaba]

Just because you can't appreciate the music doesn't mean it's bad singing!

True, but...um...while there IS such a thing as good enka, that wasn't it.

Sheryl's version, on the other hand...

[VFTF1]

If the answer to my question is yes, does that mean that we can expect that in the Macross F movie this summer the original cast of Minmay, Hikaru and Misa will be discovered aboard the Megaroad 01?

No.

As for Bilar and Britai - unlikely and unnecessary. Besides. Bretai, like Miria, was numbered; so one presumes there were many clones of that particular "sample" - just like the advisor/Exodol model...

Pete

[edwin3060]

True, but...um...while there IS such a thing as good enka, that wasn't it.

Sheryl's version, on the other hand...

I thought both were pretty good.

[taksraven]

Anybody think that there will be any role for the Vajra in the Macross saga in the future beyond Frontier and the movie? Possible allies in the future? Or do people think that they had a total one-off appearance?

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Funny, I would have thought more people would say Ogotai was actually Britai, since they appear almost identical

I think Birla is a parody character; I get the sense that he may represent us. More specifically, the older Macross fans. He's older than the rest of the cast and he's a working man, yet he's still obsessed with what happened to Minmay. In that respect, he is a composite character of the real old-school Macross fans, most of us are older now, have real jobs and many of us are still curious what happened to Minmay and the others. I think Birla is more that than anything else.

Oh come on, next you will be saying that Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons is based on nerdy, overweight, pedantic SF and Comic fans. No way! :P

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Oh come on, next you will be saying that Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons is based on nerdy, overweight, pedantic SF and Comic fans. No way! :P

Taksraven

Richard Birla, is it you?

[Final Vegeta]

...I've seen enough anime that I think I can tell what kind of story elements are intended for what audiences.

Actually the distintion shounen/shoujo is based on the magazine where it was published, not on the anime For this reason, anime born as anime are not really classifiable in that sense. That said, Macross Frontier has 3 manga, of which 1 is shounen and 2 are seinen. There is also a light novel whose publisher is the same of the manga, and whose demographic is (obviously) male. I think I proved you definitively can't tell

Damn near every shojou romance title out there has something to do with a school.

School romance is present in a lot of titles targeted to males. In fact, a school setting usually only means the target is teens or younger adults; the characters are about the same age of their intended audience, therefore it's reasonable they are students, unless they don't live in our contemporary world. And again you didn't explicitly name any shoujo title.

I also meant that the whole Alto/Sheryl/Ranka dynamic smacks of it, because it's focused totally on the womens' anguish due to the ineptitude of the (very very bishounen) male. Ranka and Sheryl's desparation is something that would strike a chord most with female audience members, yes?

If you are male, won't you like if females fawn at you more than you fawn at them? I don't understand why you can't see that Ranka and Sheryl are made to appeal mainly male audience, especially since their covert yuri relationship. Didn't the decent amount of fanservice in the show tip you off?

For a similar example, Full Metal Panic has lot of school hijinks and a clueless male, and guess what? It's targeted toward males.

You don't get "accustomed" to war and fighting. Ask any Vietnam vet. I would have liked to see more physical/emotional deterioration on the part of the pilots, but that's probably a bit much to ask from Macross.

What you would like to see sound suspiciously close to angst, and we have had enough of angsty teens in anime

Right, and almost every show out there includes team playing, it's a pretty central part of human civilization. But if you remember the Zentradi revolt, Temzin(?)'s dying words regarded the fundamental inability of two species to co-exist without conflict. That came up again and again, but when they finally found the means to communicate with the Vajra, they were able to defeat the common enemy. This I saw as reflecting our own inability to "listen" to what the other life on this planet tells us, and the conflict that arises from it.

The keyword here is not "nature", it's "harmony", the blissful state of feeling whole.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

The common fictional approach of "in wartime everyone swiftly deteriorates into broken shells of their former selves" is as much an oversimplification as stories where everyone is bravely unmoved from the start, and in a series like Macross with such a central message that while war might not always be avoidable there has to be more to life than bleak fighting for survival, it would be even more out of place. Frontier was somewhere in between: people were traumatized and as the story went on and things got more desperate they showed more stress and episodes of good cheer became both fewer and more commonly strained or affected. It might not have been the most detailed and realistic possible portrayal, but I found it both believable and prominent.

One must consider that the model of war in Macross doesn't correspond to the model of war cited. In Vietnam troops were fighting in a foreign ground where they could be attacked at every moment even by people disguised as civilians, while in Macross Frontier troops fight mostly in their own territory to defend their own people, and enemy attacks are clearly signaled. The atmosphere is clearly different. More specifically, as a work of fiction, Macross represents not a war on people, but a war on valors, more exactly the same valors which would prevent war itself.

It is also to say that the cultural model of the Japanese hero is a guy who achieves to mantain a serene state mind even in the midst of battle. In this condition, traumas are impossible. This is obviously different from the Western breeding which typically gives you only one teaching: "they are the bad guys, you can kill them without feeling bad". Unless you are already a psychopath, you will have no psychological defenses. Eastern philosophies instead always placed heavy emphasis on cultivating the spirit, for a reason.

FV

[VFTF1]

Well - I see this thread has gotten interesting Good food for thought guys

Pete

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Actually the distintion shounen/shoujo is based on the magazine where it was published, not on the anime For this reason, anime born as anime are not really classifiable in that sense. That said, Macross Frontier has 3 manga, of which 1 is shounen and 2 are seinen. There is also a light novel whose publisher is the same of the manga, and whose demographic is (obviously) male. I think I proved you definitively can't tell

There's "aimed at men" and "aimed at women" elements in the works themselves that go well beyond publication history in terms of meaning. Critics in the US use the shojo/shonen terms for this, and I do too.

School romance is present in a lot of titles targeted to males. In fact, a school setting usually only means the target is teens or younger adults; the characters are about the same age of their intended audience, therefore it's reasonable they are students, unless they don't live in our contemporary world. And again you didn't explicitly name any shoujo title.

If you are male, won't you like if females fawn at you more than you fawn at them? I don't understand why you can't see that Ranka and Sheryl are made to appeal mainly male audience, especially since their covert yuri relationship. Didn't the decent amount of fanservice in the show tip you off?

You hadn't named one example anywhere up until this post either. Princess Princess. It's one of a trillion shojo titles that involves a school. Happy now? And yes, school settings reach across gender boundries.... That's the point I was trying to get across.

If that relationship actually was aimed at men, Alto wouldn't be such a titanic puss, and would end up actually expressing his will, and getting what he truly wants (the masculine role). Instead he sits and spins, while Ranka and Sheryl agonize their little hearts out over him. Suffering at the hands of men is something that nearly all women can relate to. Most men don't want to watch women be miserable as much as women do, because helping eachother cope is something girls learn very early to do (men would rather see the woman be won over or earned by exceptional behavior). And yeah, there's fanservice, since the series is meant to have elements that appeal to almost everyone.

What you would like to see sound suspiciously close to angst, and we have had enough of angsty teens in anime

The keyword here is not "nature", it's "harmony", the blissful state of feeling whole.

Maybe you have.

And yes, I see you know something about Japanese culture, that's nice, but you didn't convince me that it's anything other than a minor detail.

[Ishimaru]

I know this off topic slightly.

But I have been trying to convince my friends to watch Frontier but they all bashed it out and won't watch it because I'm mentioned (friend joke thing..) it. How the hell do I give a convincing argument on not to watch it?

Obviously saying its a awesome series with these popular voice actors and what not wont' help..

Edited January 18, 2009 by Ishimaru