Macross Frontier Final Episode Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Sergorn]

Of course, it's a bit up to interpretation but eh, this argument will be an endless circle like the one about whether Mylene would choose Basara or Gamlin.

And that's the point. Yes, it's open to interpretation - quite frankly I think that was done on purpose prisecely to start these kind of dedates

Personally I don't really care whoever Alto would end up with... but the way I felt it was that he was in love with Ranka. Anyone is free to disagree.. But it'd be nice if "Sheryl shiper" weren't going about oh it's obvious he loves Sheryl, and how if we don't see it we're just too blind to see the clues and so on

-Sergorn

[magnuskn]

And that's the point. Yes, it's open to interpretation - quite frankly I think that was done on purpose prisecely to start these kind of dedates

Personally I don't really care whoever Alto would end up with... but the way I felt it was that he was in love with Ranka. Anyone is free to disagree.. But it'd be nice if "Sheryl shiper" weren't going about oh it's obvious he loves Sheryl, and how if we don't see it we're just too blind to see the clues and so on

-Sergorn

Why shouldn't we? It is obvious for anybody who cares to check for facts.

[tankf77]

Why shouldn't we? It is obvious for anybody who cares to check for facts.

Well, let's not be antagonistic with each other.........we should direct our frustration to SK and co. for pitting economics over a good ending (for the triangular I mean).

[magnuskn]

My answer was getting WAAAAY too long (and probably dull for anyone who isn't you or me), so I'm keeping this short. If you'd like a fuller answer, PM me.

Suffice to say that I never said Alto didn't love Sheryl deeply...he clearly does, it's just that I don't see a whole lot of romantic interest on his part. I don't think he's romantically interested in Ranka, either, so ALL the supposed "hints" fall flat to me.

Yes, Sheryl kissed him many times, but as far as I can recall, HE never kissed HER. Yes, they moved in together, because she needed him. The idea that they made love is interesting, but purely speculative. Yes, he took the earring, but so what? He took Michael's sniper rifle, too.

And, over and over again, it's Ranka who he has risked life and limb to rescue, it's Ranka who inspired him to fly, it's Ranka who he has given encouragement to. But that doesn't mean he wants to marry her, or even spend a jazzy weekend with her.

I stand by my original assertion. He loves both of them, he cares very deeply for both of them. And yes, he feels some attraction for both of them. But he doesn't really want to "be" with either of them.

EDIT: And yes, he wore Shery's panties, but only because they were the ones Ai-kun stole. AltoxAi-kun FTW!!!

I went to sleep yesterday before seeing your response, and Junior did a better response than I probably would have. If by this point you can´t be convinced, then it is because internally you already have decided that you don´t want to be convinced. And I am a bit tired to engage in fruitless internet discussion, because nothing ever, *ever* comes of it but more going around in circles.

And to the people who deny that Sheryl and Alto slept together, a.) V-Type disease isn´t AIDS, so it could as well be that you need more than sexual contact to transmit it... Sheryl would know, as she saw detailed medical reports on it from Lucas hands; and b.) There is a serum against it, if it is in the early stages.

I also believe that Sheryl and Alto slept together, partly because I want it to have happened, but mostly because the hints were there. But, again with the "Some people need big flashy neon lights". Subtletly is a lost art, it seems.

[wolfx]

I went to sleep yesterday before seeing your response, and Junior did a better response than I probably would have. If by this point you can´t be convinced, then it is because internally you already have decided that you don´t want to be convinced. And I am a bit tired to engage in fruitless internet discussion, because nothing ever, *ever* comes of it but more going around in circles.

And to the people who deny that Sheryl and Alto slept together, a.) V-Type disease isn´t AIDS, so it could as well be that you need more than sexual contact to transmit it... Sheryl would know, as she saw detailed medical reports on it from Lucas hands; and b.) There is a serum against it, if it is in the early stages.

I also believe that Sheryl and Alto slept together, partly because I want it to have happened, but mostly because the hints were there. But, again with the "Some people need big flashy neon lights". Subtletly is a lost art, it seems.

Remember WTF-1. There's no subtlety in Macross with Kawamori on the helm.

And did you just came up with that "need more than sexual contact to transmit it... "? Where the heck did they mention that? It clearly said it spread through bodily fluids and sex is like one of the prime ways of exchange of bodily fluids.

Well if you can sleep better thinking they slept together, go ahead and think what you wanna. I personally don't want the shipper wars to continue on this board. Its getting stupid.

[Sergorn]

Why shouldn't we? It is obvious for anybody who cares to check for facts.

Yeah sure. I might as well declare that you're wont and it should be obvious for anyone smart enough that Alto really loves Ranka and not Sheryl. (And indeed I think it IS rather obvious after 23... but I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me). Eck as I said I don't really care about that stuff anyway, but sorry people putting down whoever don't agree with them tend to grate in my nerves

If we follow your "logic", obviously you might as well be the one who've already decided you're right and refuse to see the "truth". If the extent of your logic is saying : "I'm right, you're WRONG and you don't agree you're stupid !", there really is no point discussing with you.

(As for wether Alto and Sheryl had sex, in the end this is pretty much irrelevant as I tried to point out when mentioning Macross Plus).

-Sergorn

Edited September 29, 2008 by Sergorn

[ComicKaze]

did Battle Frontier do a "dedalus attack" on battle galaxy just after Macross Quarter did the attack on Galaxies' cannon?

No, it was just a right straight.

[magnuskn]

Remember WTF-1. There's no subtlety in Macross with Kawamori on the helm.

And did you just came up with that "need more than sexual contact to transmit it... "? Where the heck did they mention that? It clearly said it spread through bodily fluids and sex is like one of the prime ways of exchange of bodily fluids.

Well if you can sleep better thinking they slept together, go ahead and think what you wanna. I personally don't want the shipper wars to continue on this board. Its getting stupid.

Eh, discussing it here is painful, because all the arguments made on Suki ( and there was lots of discussion about the nuances of the episodes ) weren´t made here, because Macrossworld seems to be more preoccupied with the mecha aspect of the series. And, honestly, I have better things to do than drag all the little stuff out of posts made weeks ago. So let´s call it quits for now, the movie will clear it up anyway.

As for the V-Type disease... it´s you guys who immediately went V-Type = AIDS!, although it was never explicitly stated that way. Yeah, there are correlations, but no direct link. And there is a cure for early stages, as said by Luca in the series.

Yeah sure. I might as well declare that you're wont and it should be obvious for anyone smart enough that Alto really loves Ranka and not Sheryl. (And indeed I think it IS rather obvious after 23... but I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me). Eck as I said I don't really care about that stuff anyway, but sorry people putting down whoever don't agree with them tend to grate in my nerves

If we follow your "logic", obviously you might as well be the one who've already decided you're right and refuse to see the "truth". If the extent of your logic is saying : "I'm right, you're WRONG and you don't agree you're stupid !", there really is no point discussing with you.

Well, enough good arguments were presented by the Sheryl side. I really mind having to repeat them, if you just have to check back a few pages to get to them. I´ve yet to see *anything* by the Ranka shippers, besides "ZOMG, Alto didn´t explicitly say that he loves Sheryl, so it means he loves Ranka!"

[ComicKaze]

So is Bilrer in on it with Grace or not?

Bilrer wanted Grace's plan to succeed because he wanted to connect with Minmay across time and space. Does that make him an accomplice in the murder of thousands? He's also pretty much the war profiteer, the war being a 'crusade' (as Leon puts it) to get Fold Crystal ([OIL]).

This guy is the real secondary bad guy.

[wolfx]

Eh, discussing it here is painful, because all the arguments made on Suki ( and there was lots of discussion about the nuances of the episodes ) weren´t made here, because Macrossworld seems to be more preoccupied with the mecha aspect of the series. And, honestly, I have better things to do than drag all the little stuff out of posts made weeks ago. So let´s call it quits for now, the movie will clear it up anyway.

I'll say it bluntly. Keep your shipping in animesuki. We (or at least most of us) don't like it here.

Well, enough good arguments were presented by the Sheryl side. I really mind having to repeat them, if you just have to check back a few pages to get to them. I´ve yet to see *anything* by the Ranka shippers, besides "ZOMG, Alto didn´t explicitly say that he loves Sheryl, so it means he loves Ranka!"

Maybe its because the so-called Ranka-shippers don't really care? Simply stating "sheryl didn't win coz....." doesn't make me a Ranka shipper. But i do admit i was "shipping" Ranka just cuz she was the underdog in this whole shipping war but in actual fact I couldn't care less if she didn't win. The way I see it, now its "Sheryl shippers vs ppl who think it was a harem ending" war though, and some Sheryl shippers agree it was unresolved as well.

[magnuskn]

I'll say it bluntly. Keep your shipping in animesuki. We (or at least most of us) don't like it here.

Well, I´ll say it bluntly, then, too. You are not the boss of me, so don´t try to give me arrogant orders. I´ll keep the colorful language I´d *like* to add out of it, because I don´t want to get banned.

Maybe its because the so-called Ranka-shippers don't really care? Simply stating "sheryl didn't win coz....." doesn't make me a Ranka shipper. But i do admit i was "shipping" Ranka just cuz she was the underdog in this whole shipping war but in actual fact I couldn't care less if she didn't win. The way I see it, now its "Sheryl shippers vs ppl who think it was a harem ending" war though, and some Sheryl shippers agree it was unresolved as well.

There are still obvious Ranka shippers who try to state without equivocation that Ranka won. Sergorn seems to such a one.

[grss1982]

Perhaps that should read "There's no way Sheryl will have unprotected sex with Alto".

Presumably they still have condoms in 2059, or perhaps by then the technology exists for the more secure 'pin-point-barrier-doms' (PPBD).

Graham

:lol: :lol:

DARN IT!!!! I just feel off my chair laughing so hard at that one.

Thanks Graham that REALLY made my day.

Edited September 29, 2008 by grss1982

[ruskiiVFaussie]

So, i'm ready to download! Overall who's got the complete package? Shinsen only goes to epi 14, and i heard they were pretty good, so who should i go with please guys?

[wolfx]

Well, I´ll say it bluntly, then, too. You are not the boss of me, so don´t try to give me arrogant orders. I´ll keep the colorful language I´d *like* to add out of it, because I don´t want to get banned.

Emo shipper is emo.

Now I'm reminded why I don't go to the animesuki boards.

[Sergorn]

There are still obvious Ranka shippers who try to state without equivocation that Ranka won. Sergorn seems to such a one.

Except as I said I'm not a "shipper" of anyone... I enjoy the love triangles in Macross... but not the point of being obsessive about it. I didn't mind that it wasn't resolved in Seven, and I won't mind if it end up never being resolved in Frontier. either

And as a matter of fact, while I certainly love Ranka - I've been pretty much rooting for Sheryl ever since episode 16... But it seems, to me, IMHO... that ever since Episode 23 everything points toward Alto being actually in love with Ranka (I've already stated the reasons, so you'll excuse if I don't write a whole novel about it). It wouldn't be so surprising, especially when you consider it is rather common in Anime to have a character being with someone at a point... and yet actually loving another person (You can just look at the love triangle in Escaflowne, a previous Kawamori work for an exemple... or even the original Macross to some extent).

Of course this is just my opinion and my own personal interpretation of the ending... But unlike you I'm not trying to force it down other people throat. I'm sorry if you feel offensed than everybody isn't willing to submit to your views... but well... deal with it, the world is full of people we don't agree with, that's no reason to go and insult their intelligence.

-Sergorn

[magnuskn]

Except as I said I'm not a "shipper" of anyone... I enjoy the love triangles in Macross... but not the point of being obsessive about it. I didn't mind that it wasn't resolved in Seven, and I won't mind if it end up never being resolved in Frontier. either

And as a matter of fact, while I certainly love Ranka - I've been pretty much rooting for Sheryl ever since episode 16... But it seems, to me, IMHO... that ever since Episode 23 everything points toward Alto being actually in love with Ranka (I've already stated the reasons, so you'll excuse if I don't write a whole novel about it). It wouldn't be so surprising, especially when you consider it is rather common in Anime to have a character being with someone at a point... and yet actually loving another person (You can just look at the love triangle in Escaflowne, a previous Kawamori work for an exemple... or even the original Macross to some extent).

Of course this is just my opinion and my own personal interpretation of the ending... But unlike you I'm not trying to force it down other people throat. I'm sorry if you feel offensed than everybody isn't willing to submit to your views... but well... deal with it, the world is full of people we don't agree with, that's no reason to go and insult their intelligence.

-Sergorn

Oh, please. I am not forcing my view on anybody, I am asking for concrete examples which prove it is wrong. I´d like some evidence that Ranka won, and as far as I can see, there was none. The scene on the rooftop pretty much said just the other thing.... Frontier won over Ranka. Frontier may have even won over Sheryl for Alto, but as Sheryl wasn´t threatening Frontier with being annihilated, that option never came up.

As far as Sheryl misunderstanding the rooftop scene... she came in during the latter half of the conversation, and she obviously already had concluded beforehand that Alto was staying with her out of pity. Therefore it is easy to see how she came to the wrong conclusion, based on her own bias and missing the first half of what Alto said.

[dreamweaver13]

ok all this talk on the triangler, but we're forgetting one love story:

what's gonna happen to Nanase x Luca??!

and don't tell me Nana-chan will start looking at Luca a different way coz he confessed and kissed her all while she was asleep!

is this another thing that's gonna be cleared up in the movie? i hope so.

you know, even if the movie isn't really a sequel or a new story, but if it simply expands the last 2 episodes into a full-length movie with enough exposition and development, i'll be quite satisfied.

[Radd]

So is Bilrer in on it with Grace or not?

Bilrer wanted Grace's plan to succeed because he wanted to connect with Minmay across time and space. Does that make him an accomplice in the murder of thousands? He's also pretty much the war profiteer, the war being a 'crusade' (as Leon puts it) to get Fold Crystal ([OIL]).

This guy is the real secondary bad guy.

That's pretty much the exact opposite impression I came away from it with.

[Sergorn]

Yeah I don't think Bilrer was for Grace's plan actually... Bilrer wante to creat a galaxy wide fold network in order to have near somultaneous space travel.... that's nothing like Grace's plan to create some king of big human consciousness network. Grace & al sure seem to consider Bilrer a threat from their comment in Episode 15. Sure he went along with Leon's plans... but as far as he knew he was just the legitimate president and Glass had been killed by the Vajra....

Thoughs Bilrer's motivations aren't fully explained, it didn't come to me as a bad guy at all - he seemed rather idealist actually.

-Sergorn

[adrianop]

@magnuskn

We get it, you like Sheryl. Move on with your life or go debate somemore at Suki.

[mike_s_6]

what's gonna happen to Nanase x Luca??!

I'd like to see Lucca looking a little more mature for Nanase

[carzooyah]

One thing for sure, the open ended ending would give fuel for fan fictions and doujins to illustrate "What happens next?"

[magnuskn]

@magnuskn

We get it, you like Sheryl. Move on with your life or go debate somemore at Suki.

You don´t get to give me orders, neither, dude. Go and play with your dolls.

[RedWolf]

Dunno the movie could put a twist that Nanase lost her memory due to trauma.

[magnuskn]

Dunno the movie could put a twist that Nanase lost her memory due to trauma.

I could see that. Well, since that would only mean that Luca is just as far with her as he always was, it just makes it easier for him, as she then would have forgotten about her Ranka obsession. ^^

[VF-25 Messiah]

Dunno the movie could put a twist that Nanase lost her memory due to trauma.

I shall now rage at all of you for not realizing the simple truth. Namely that Nanase is in fact Grace O'Connor. It is SO obvious that I cannot fathom why you all refuse to see this. I mean the evidence are clear as day, yet you still refuse to see it. Let's review them shall we:

1. They both have glasses. All people with glasses in this show are evil. This alone should dispel any doubt, but I shall go on.

2. They have roughly the same haircolor.

3. They have roughly the same eyecolor.

4. They both have sizeable female assets.

Now you could argue that point 1 is invalid because Michael had glasses too. Boy are you wrong! It is clear as day that Michael too is in leauge with Grace, and he will reappear as her righthand man in the movie. Adding to this I list no less than 3 similiarities between the two. Giving more would just be redundant but I shall mention that another very strong hint is the fact that Nanase wakes up just at the end of episode 25. Why? Obviously because Grace's other body was killed so her mind transfered to this body. That Nanase earlier appeared to be moving under a will of her own, is simply because that body was installed with an android program to draw away suspicion. Anyone who cannot see this are simply narrowminded fools. Do you all really need to have it spelled out for you in plain text before you see the obvious?! Be thankful that I have educated you all, fools!

Edited September 29, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[carzooyah]

I shall now rage at all of you for not realizing the simple truth. Namely that Nanase is in fact Grace O'Connor. It is SO obvious that I cannot fathom why you all refuse to see this. I mean the evidence are clear as day, yet you still refuse to see it. Let's review them shall we:

1. They both have glasses. All people with glasses in this show are evil. This alone should dispel any doubt, but I shall go on.

2. They have roughly the same haircolor.

3. They have roughly the same eyecolor.

4. They both have sizeable female assets.

This must be the most complete conspiracy theory ever You forgot to mention that they both roughly tie their hair the same way (I think, if I remember correctly).

Edited September 29, 2008 by carzooyah

[magnuskn]

Nanase will have woken up with Graces personality installed. You heard it here first. ^^

[VF-25 Messiah]

This must be the most complete conspiracy theory ever You forgot to mention that they both roughly tie their hair the same way (I think, if I remember correctly).

Like I said, there were more, but mentioning them would just be redundant.

Edited September 29, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[Gubaba]

I went to sleep yesterday before seeing your response, and Junior did a better response than I probably would have. If by this point you can´t be convinced, then it is because internally you already have decided that you don´t want to be convinced. And I am a bit tired to engage in fruitless internet discussion, because nothing ever, *ever* comes of it but more going around in circles.

And to the people who deny that Sheryl and Alto slept together, a.) V-Type disease isn´t AIDS, so it could as well be that you need more than sexual contact to transmit it... Sheryl would know, as she saw detailed medical reports on it from Lucas hands; and b.) There is a serum against it, if it is in the early stages.

I also believe that Sheryl and Alto slept together, partly because I want it to have happened, but mostly because the hints were there. But, again with the "Some people need big flashy neon lights". Subtletly is a lost art, it seems.

Dude...you're getting silly. In college, I was a lit major specializing in Post-WWI European Modernists. Subtlety is not lost on me, unless you want to argue that my favorite writers, Proust, Joyce, and Mann are unsubtle. And that's an argument no one can win. (So what am I doing arguing about an anime? Good question...)

And no, I probably don't want to be convinced...because if I were, I wold also be convinced that the ending of Frontier was very badly written indeed, and I don't accept that it was. Plus, there's the fact that everyone who has tried to convince me me that Alto chose Sheryl has also felt the need to insult me at the same time, which (SURPRISE!) makes me less inclined to take the theory seriously.

But I would like to know...if it's all so obvious, why do only the Sheryl Shippers see it?

Dunno the movie could put a twist that Nanase lost her memory due to trauma.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

First her eye (maybe), now her memory (maybe)? You, RedWolf, are a fiend.

[Sergorn]

Now you could argue that point 1 is invalid because Michael had glasses too. Boy are you wrong! It is clear as day that Michael too is in leauge with Grace, and he will reappear as her righthand man in the movie.

With a Mask. Of course.

-Sergorn

[maglev]

@magnuskn

Two people already asked you to stop it already, and some of posters here are ignoring you (just like they ignoring justin) or just making fun of the whole shipping debate at Animesuki.... even I as a lurker can see this.

So please, it's not like people here at MW doesn't care about the character and story and just digging into the mechs. We DO care and have our favorites between Sheryl and Ranka, it just that character shipping especially if it involves downright hatred towards one of them are not encouraged here.

Just stop it, it is detrimental towards the franchise in the long run just like how many Gundam fans divided into UC and non UC fans.

[carzooyah]

I thought there's already a thread about the triangler somewhere here? This could all be easily shipped there. I seriously think that trolling about it still wouldn't change the ending that was shown. If you want it to be resolved in your own image, write a fan fiction or something. I personally think that the PC and vajra discussion in the previous pages were very entertaining and enlightening to read (not to mention directly on topic)

[Major Focker]

yup, let's move along. there are lots of other stuff from this episode worthy of discussion like how luca's rosy cheeks came back when ozma was scolding luca for not calling him captain, or beercan missiles (i'm SURE there's one in there somewhere), or that brera is now kenshin himura.

but seriously, the way the nature of the vajra was explained and their link to PC (or rather, the PC's link to them) was mighty interesting and establishes a good foundation both for future development and links to the past. there are subtleties and implications there waiting to be mined.

lest there be any doubt where my heart lies, check my avatar. all i can say is, "close but no cigar". i doubt sheryl would be satisifed with innuendos either.

[magnuskn]

@magnuskn

Two people already asked you to stop it already, and some of posters here are ignoring you (just like they ignoring justin) or just making fun of the whole shipping debate at Animesuki.... even I as a lurker can see this.

So please, it's not like people here at MW doesn't care about the character and story and just digging into the mechs. We DO care and have our favorites between Sheryl and Ranka, it just that character shipping especially if it involves downright hatred towards one of them are not encouraged here.

Just stop it, it is detrimental towards the franchise in the long run just like how many Gundam fans divided into UC and non UC fans.

First off, they didn´t "ask", but told me in quite unkind terms to get lost. And it is not as if I began spouting swear words before that happened, I was asking them to provide, y'know, evidence of their viewpoint ( in that case, Wolf-X ).

But let it not be said that I cannot react to kind words, because those are the ones usually successful in most discussions. I´ll keep my peace, I hope they keep theirs.