Macross Valkyries scales

[Mr March]

reddsun1

I can't seem to find the pictures now, but I remember doing some size comparison sketches during the development of my Zentradi page and the 8-9 meter tall Zentradi did work well within the established mecha. I agree there isn't a lot of room for anything else inside those cockpits, but if you look at the art (especially the Reguld cockpit) you can see they are largely just big hollow shells with very little equipment. The Reguld pilot appears to take up most of the space inside his pod. Anything larger is where we really begin to run into problems, like the 10-meter rule and characters like the nearly 12-meter-tall Kamjin

I would agree with you that simply increasing the size of the two Battle Pods would solve the issue and even works well within some of the establishing scenes. Personally I'd think even just adding a meter or two would work wonders for accomodation. At 18-19 meters, the Reguld and Glaug could fit just about everyone.

Reivaj

An interesting chart. This one seems to adhere to the roughly 10-meter tall rule for the Zentradi (or Meltrandi, as it were) I think that looks good and makes sense when it comes to fitting Klan into her Queadluun-Rhea.

[Mommar]

The internal and the external views--as depicted in the charts--just don't seem to match up to me, for some reason. Anime-magic and perspective aside, the outside drawings just look to me like they need to be bigger to provide enough internal volume for inner workings/equipment. The guy depicted in the lower left corner of the internal view chart just barely fits within the confines of the pod's profile [and the pod looks even smaller in the above external chart]. That doesn't account for much of anything else, like his seat; console; monitor(s); dials; knobs; etc. He might as well be fighting in a cardboard box.

That is the most sane size chart where everything looks consistent I have ever seen.

[MichaelS]

Any new updates or changes to this?

[reddsun1]

Okay--just got back from WS Airshow today. Great show, and in attendance was "the world's only privately owned AV8 Harrier." Awesome bird. But coincidentally, it's also very close in dimensional specs to the VF-1. The F-16 is also somewhat close...

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 pilot
  
• Length: 46 ft 4 in (14.12 m)
  
• Wingspan: 30 ft 4 in (9.25 m)
  
• Height: 11 ft 8 in (3.55 m)
  
• Wing area: 243.4 ft² (22.61 m²)
  
• Airfoil: supercritical airfoil
  
• Empty weight: 13,968 lb (6,340 kg)
  
• Loaded weight: 22,950 lb (10,410 kg)
  
• Max. takeoff weight:
  
  • Rolling: 31,000 lb (14,100 kg)
    
  • Vertical: 20,755 lb (9,415 kg)
    

  [*]Powerplant: 1 × Rolls-Royce F402-RR-408 (Mk 107) vectored-thrust turbofan, 23,500 lbf (105 kN)

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
  
• Length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)
  
• Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.96 m)
  
• Height: 16 ft (4.88 m)
  
• Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²)
  
• Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip
  
• Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,570 kg)
  
• Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg)
  
• Max. takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg)
  
• Powerplant: 1 × F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan
  
  • Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN)
    
  • Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (127 kN)
    

• Battroid Mode: height 12.68 meters; width 7.3 meters; length 4.0 meters
  
• Fighter Mode: wingspan 14.78 (fully extended); height 3.84 meters; length 14.23 meters
  
• GERWALK Mode: wingspan 14.78 (fully extended); height 8.7 meters; length 11.3 meters
  Mass: empty 13.25 metric tons; standard T-O mass 18.5 metric tons; max T-O mass 37.0 metric tons
  Structure: space metal frame, SWAG energy converting armor
  Power Plant: two Shinnakasu Heavy Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, output 650 MW each.
  

After having finally seen a Harrier in person, I can only conclude: No f'ing way, would a VF-1 be approximately the same size, if built in 1:1 scale. It just wouldn't work. Somebody must have fudged the numbers, when they put the original Valkryie specs to paper back in the day. That's just too damned small. To keep any sense of proportionality, A 1:1 VF would simply have to be larger than that. In fact: in terms of "footprint" on the tarmac, an A-6 Intruder parked nearby felt much closer to "right" for about how large a real-world VF would have to be, to appear anywhere near like it did on screen in the original animation; albeit a bit too long-ish.

Edited August 25, 2012 by reddsun1

[VF5SS]

♪

Edited August 25, 2012 by VF5SS

[sketchley]

Question: is that AV8 Harrier's length including, or not including that long antenna (refueling probe?) on the front of it's nose? If yes, than it may make a bit more sense to not visualize the VF-1 as being the "same" size as the AV8, simply because visually that antenna doesn't stand out enough...

the other thing that one must keep in mind are the thermonuclear engines. They don't require as much fuel to operate (thereby removing fuel tank volume from the airframe) and are more efficient than the Pegasus engine in the Harriers (which is somewhat large for a jet fighter engine), so that may also throw off any visual comparisons.

Edited August 26, 2012 by sketchley

[reddsun1]

I also took a peek and a pic up in the wheelwell of aforementioned A6, and was amazed at the amount of plumbing, servos, valving and other mechanics--not to mention the sheer internal volume of the bay just to accomodate said gear. Kind of affirmed my suspicion that: if you built a VF-1 to the numbers "on paper," the damn thing (for instance, the nose section) wouldn't have enough internal volume to accomodate a pilot and mechanics, or vice versa.

ed: don't get me wrong, I'm anxiously awaiting the results of Dan B's DYRL VF WIP. It's about as close as we're ever gonna get to seeing what a Valk would look like "fleshed out."

Edited August 28, 2012 by reddsun1

[Zinjo]

I also took a peek and a pic up in the wheelwell of aforementioned A6, and was amazed at the amount of plumbing, servos, valving and other mechanics--not to mention the sheer internal volume of the bay just to accomodate said gear. Kind of affirmed my suspicion that: if you built a VF-1 to the numbers "on paper," the damn thing (for instance, the nose section) wouldn't have enough internal volume to accomodate a pilot and mechanics, or vice versa.

ed: don't get me wrong, I'm anxiously awaiting the results of Dan B's DYRL VF WIP. It's about as close as we're ever gonna get to seeing what a Valk would look like "fleshed out."

One must also keep in mind that the use of new materials and composite ceramics would affect the size of certain items. For instance a 6" diameter landing strut might have the same strength in 4" with better materials, add the shrinking of other traditional sized parts and compacting an aircraft is not so impossible...

Edited August 28, 2012 by Zinjo

[reddsun1]

One must also keep in mind that the use of new materials and composite ceramics would affect the size of certain items. For instance a 6" diameter landing strut might have the same strength in 4" with better materials, add the shrinking of other traditional sized parts and compacting an aircraft is not so impossible...

True dat. Good point. Just kinda hard to wrap my mind around the idea that the VF-1 would only be about the same size as an A4 Skyhawk, "scooter."

[VF5SS]

I believe the idea was that the VF-1 is a small highly maneuverable fighter unlike the airplane its based on. Maybe they thought that even on a mile long ship space would still be at a premium.

[Reïvaj]

One must also keep in mind that the use of new materials and composite ceramics would affect the size of certain items. For instance a 6" diameter landing strut might have the same strength in 4" with better materials, add the shrinking of other traditional sized parts and compacting an aircraft is not so impossible...

Don’t forget the newly acquired alien technology.

[Mr March]

Any new updates or changes to this?

Haven't really worked on schematics in a long time. Been busy with updates to the other material on my website. But with recent access to more art books I did make a quick and dirty chart that compares the mecha schematics available. See pic below.

[Zinjo]

Don’t forget the newly acquired alien technology.

The implication was that with the advances from Overtechnology, new materials and processes would be developed to achieve smaller stronger components for aircraft in the Macross universe.

The idea of smelting metals in a zero g environment is the first to come to mind. Such a process would alllow more uniform strength to materials since they would not be affected by planetary gravity... Also advances in metalurgy provided by reverse engineering PC based materials in ASS-1 and / or raiding any surviving technical databases aboard the ship.

[Rodavan]

I have not read all the post here - the "Idea" of these designs was done in 2D , by people who "cheat" with colour and pencils on a flat piece of paper. If you ever done a VF1 or VF-19 , in 3D there is no way that the actual "size" will fit you have to make them fit . Just have a look at the toys and the different ways the manufactureres bend the rule to make the transformations happen .

I still love them to bit , we as Macross fans can just our best to make them fit and look good as they were intended to be

[007-vf1]

Even with the notion of new acquired lien technology. We should assume that some mecha sizes in the Macross universe still doesn't add up if we translated them to the real world. I think some canon sized mecha have to be revised to plausible modern standards That's implying that we all agree that some anime-magic has indeed been exercised during the creation of the series/movies..

What's everyone's take on this?

[reddsun1]

Haven't really worked on schematics in a long time. Been busy with updates to the other material on my website. But with recent access to more art books I did make a quick and dirty chart that compares the mecha schematics available. See pic below.

I think maybe the Glaug and Regult could be a little larger? I wish I could get more select screen-caps from ep 32. Some of the best reference images to be seen are in that one, I think; give the most plausible proportions...

note: VF is roughly same size as an "average" Zentraedi

Note Kamjin's size in relation to Monster

also note implied internal volume of Glaug cockpit

I think a "real" Glaug would be somewhat closer in size to that of a Monster...

Edited May 24, 2013 by reddsun1

[SebastianP]

The Zentraedi sourcebook for the Robotech RPG by Palladium (yeah, booh hiss and all that) had an illustration of a Glaug facing off with a Monster that put the two of them at more or less the same size, IIRC (I think the Glaug was taller and the Monster fatter). I can't find my book right now, nor a scan of the back cover (the front cover is available all over the place though), but if my recollection is right, it should be one of the better pieces of Macross art out there. (It's plain black and white, and I have no idea who drew it...)

[frothymug]

http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/zentradiheight.html

This might be helpful to the conversation at the moment.

[infosys_ms]

Okay--just got back from WS Airshow today. Great show, and in attendance was "the world's only privately owned AV8 Harrier." Awesome bird. But coincidentally, it's also very close in dimensional specs to the VF-1. The F-16 is also somewhat close...

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 pilot
• Length: 46 ft 4 in (14.12 m)
• Wingspan: 30 ft 4 in (9.25 m)
• Height: 11 ft 8 in (3.55 m)
• Wing area: 243.4 ft² (22.61 m²)
• Airfoil: supercritical airfoil
• Empty weight: 13,968 lb (6,340 kg)
• Loaded weight: 22,950 lb (10,410 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight:
  • Rolling: 31,000 lb (14,100 kg)
  • Vertical: 20,755 lb (9,415 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × Rolls-Royce F402-RR-408 (Mk 107) vectored-thrust turbofan, 23,500 lbf (105 kN)

General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)
• Wingspan: 32 ft 8 in (9.96 m)
• Height: 16 ft (4.88 m)
• Wing area: 300 ft² (27.87 m²)
• Airfoil: NACA 64A204 root and tip
• Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,570 kg)
• Loaded weight: 26,500 lb (12,000 kg)
• Max. takeoff weight: 42,300 lb (19,200 kg)
• Powerplant: 1 × F110-GE-100 afterburning turbofan
• Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN)
• Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (127 kN)

• Battroid Mode: height 12.68 meters; width 7.3 meters; length 4.0 meters
• Fighter Mode: wingspan 14.78 (fully extended); height 3.84 meters; length 14.23 meters
• GERWALK Mode: wingspan 14.78 (fully extended); height 8.7 meters; length 11.3 meters

  Mass: empty 13.25 metric tons; standard T-O mass 18.5 metric tons; max T-O mass 37.0 metric tons

  Structure: space metal frame, SWAG energy converting armor

  Power Plant: two Shinnakasu Heavy Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, output 650 MW each.

After having finally seen a Harrier in person, I can only conclude: No f'ing way, would a VF-1 be approximately the same size, if built in 1:1 scale. It just wouldn't work. Somebody must have fudged the numbers, when they put the original Valkryie specs to paper back in the day. That's just too damned small. To keep any sense of proportionality, A 1:1 VF would simply have to be larger than that. In fact: in terms of "footprint" on the tarmac, an A-6 Intruder parked nearby felt much closer to "right" for about how large a real-world VF would have to be, to appear anywhere near like it did on screen in the original animation; albeit a bit too long-ish.

I also took a peek and a pic up in the wheelwell of aforementioned A6, and was amazed at the amount of plumbing, servos, valving and other mechanics--not to mention the sheer internal volume of the bay just to accomodate said gear. Kind of affirmed my suspicion that: if you built a VF-1 to the numbers "on paper," the damn thing (for instance, the nose section) wouldn't have enough internal volume to accomodate a pilot and mechanics, or vice versa.

ed: don't get me wrong, I'm anxiously awaiting the results of Dan B's DYRL VF WIP. It's about as close as we're ever gonna get to seeing what a Valk would look like "fleshed out."

I have not read all the post here - the "Idea" of these designs was done in 2D , by people who "cheat" with colour and pencils on a flat piece of paper. If you ever done a VF1 or VF-19 , in 3D there is no way that the actual "size" will fit you have to make them fit . Just have a look at the toys and the different ways the manufactureres bend the rule to make the transformations happen .

I still love them to bit , we as Macross fans can just our best to make them fit and look good as they were intended to be

Even with the notion of new acquired lien technology. We should assume that some mecha sizes in the Macross universe still doesn't add up if we translated them to the real world. I think some canon sized mecha have to be revised to plausible modern standards That's implying that we all agree that some anime-magic has indeed been exercised during the creation of the series/movies..

What's everyone's take on this?

WOW!, I had not read this entire post before starting mine. There are a lot of good points here, especially the real world observations and reports. I am glad I am not the only one to have noticed it, I felt like I was taking crazy pills!

Have a look at the work I’ve done on the subject at my post. I invite you to draw your own conclusions,

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=38772

And have a look at my blog for more of my work.

http://maxharddrive.blogspot.com/

[reddsun1]

I think this looks reasonably accurate, in terms of matching the specs, and size relative to comparable fighters...

Is that the F-16XL pilot figure seated in the VF-1 model? Still looks a bit cramped, though; like the Valk itself should be a bit larger--like the specs should be increased by a factor of 1-1.5, respectively--to look more to look more anime correct.

ed: That Valk looks pretty sweet in those colors. Is that a Hasegawa 1/48, perhaps?

Edited July 23, 2013 by reddsun1

[modelglue]

Hello, and apologies for dragging this from the crypt of eternity... I know some of you get grumpy about resurrections.

Can someone please tell/show/point me to more info on the second mecha from the left next to the Monster? I like that shape and I want to know more about the design. If anyone feels compelled, maybe a complete line up description would be handy for other interested parties? ...there are a few more in the line up that I would like to know more about as well.

Thanks!

[Mr March]

That mecha second from the left after the Monster is from the animated TV series Genesis Climber Mospeada. The mecha is called the AB-01 Tread. The MAHQ has a profile on it that can be found at http://www.mahq.net/mecha/mospeada/mospeada/ab-01.htm.

The other non-Macross mecha (dear gawd, these drawings of the Glaug, Reguld and N-Ger/Q-Rau's look awful!) are either designs from Mospeada or the animated TV series The Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross. I can't do a line up since I'm not familiar with Mospeada or Southern Cross, I only recognize them as mecha from those franchises. I'm sure one of our other resident fans of those shows can jump in to help.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Mr March

[anime52k8]

From the Glaug working our way right: AFC-01H Eta Legioss (Mospeada); ATAC-01-SCA Spartas (Southern Cross); Seifriet Weiße's red Bioroid (Southern Cross); Haydonite Infiltrator (Shadow Chronicles); No idea what the orange one is (???); Inbit Gamo (Mospeada); Inbit Gosu (Mospeada).

Edited January 2, 2014 by anime52k8

[modelglue]

Excellent, thanks guys. Just when I got semi-familiar with the Macross realm and the various mecha and off shoots, I had to go and open up this door.

I'll be looking over that link for the rest of the morning for sure!

[meninge]

waw, that's my mecha lineup size chart!! long time no see it...

well, i can say that the orange one my friend is the invid overlord from the video game "invasion" and the "prelude to the shadow chronicles" comic books, That version is piloted by the regent himself in the last battle against Breetai!!!

[MILKAUTICO]

VF-14 vs VF-11? any pics?

[MILKAUTICO]

[Gerli]

The last minute was INSANE.

Can someone explain the newspaper joke?

[abbadon]

That was pretty interesting. I didn't know there were mechas that big!

[Mr March]

As far as compilations go, this is pretty damned good. Quite a good spread that hit a lot of the really good marks, including representation from Patlabor, Escaflowne, Evangelion and even two mecha from Five Star Stories, WOOT!

Naturally, I would have liked to see more Macross representation, at the very least the Monster MKII should have been included or the YF-19/YF-21. But it is cool they got the Macross Quarter, the SDF-1 Macross and the Macross 25 Island Cluster Class in there. Also, serious lack of Battletech/Mechwarrior: the TImber Wolf/Mad Cat should at the very least have been there to shout out to that franchise.

[MILKAUTICO]

Here

Size Comparison of Mecha (English Translation)

thanks Adrian Rodriguez!!!!

[Gerli]

Amazing.....

[Brand-X]

Great to see it in English, though when I watched it the first time half the fun was trying to guess which ones I was familiar with and name them haha.

I was a bit surprised to see the difference in size between Grendizer and Mazinger Z, as they occur in the same continuity, I always figured they were around the same size.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Brand-X

[MILKAUTICO]

Anyone can do with just macross mecha?

[Gerli]

Anyone can do with just macross mecha?

We can use Brera or Grace instead of Miku for comparison size

Edited November 19, 2014 by Gerli