Macross Frontier Episode 23 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Final Vegeta]

Interesting title description by the folks at GG.

Read similar discussions in other forums. People don't know what storytelling is about anymore

FV

[shinkirou]

Read similar discussions in other forums. People don't know what storytelling is about anymore

FV

why? it makes the flow interesting hehehehe XD

<--- at least for me XD

[David Hingtgen]

This scene (and ep) would have been so much better if they'd simply drawn Grace as she actually is now (in her flightsuit) than in her "mental image" Grace-network incarnation.

Also---hmmn, with how interested Grace is with Ranka, and being "connected" and the network and everything, is Grace going to try to "possess" Ranka or something?

[MisaForever]

Hmmmm, now that I've watched the subs, I wonder if Ranka and Sheryl are going to have a singing duel, Sheryl for SMS/NUNS, Ranka for the Vajra

[panpo98]

Hmmmm, now that I've watched the subs, I wonder if Ranka and Sheryl are going to have a singing duel, Sheryl for SMS/NUNS, Ranka for the Vajra

I really hope so. They should have had them sing at the same time a lot more then they did so far in the series. I remember only two times. Not counting the intro.

It fells a little ironic that normally in Sci fi and anime we defend the earth from alien invaders and conquerors. And now Leon is making us into the bad guy who are trying to steal the Varja homeworld. I wonder if it will end like the end of space war 1 there we (Frontier) becomes like the Zentradi stranded on the Varja Homeworld living in an uneasy peace with the Varja (until Frontier have rebuilt and colonized the world)?

[HMP_Goose]

This scene (and ep) would have been so much better if they'd simply drawn Grace as she actually is now (in her flightsuit) than in her "mental image" Grace-network incarnation.

What makes you think that "mental image" ain't the real her?

Wait: How many of y'all still think she fought her way out of the ambush?

[shinkirou]

What makes you think that "mental image" ain't the real her?

Wait: How many of y'all still think she fought her way out of the ambush?

Grace is standing straight and is not in sitting mode like in flying valks XD

It's the same image we see when she is in her ala-matrix control room XD

[David Hingtgen]

Based on the number of corpses, I think she fought her way out without a scratch. We are still only on "Grace body #2" IMHO.

[HMP_Goose]

To what do you refer?

[azrael]

veffidas has provided a smaller AVI of GG's version. You'll find it in the first post. Thanks veffidas!

[MisaForever]

veffidas has provided a smaller AVI of GG's version. You'll find it in the first post. Thanks veffidas!

Thanks Veffidas!! You're a good guy! And I don't know what you mean by "smaller", Az. 720x480 or 1280x720 is perfectly fine.

[manwiththemachinegun]

I really hope so. They should have had them sing at the same time a lot more then they did so far in the series. I remember only two times. Not counting the intro.

It fells a little ironic that normally in Sci fi and anime we defend the earth from alien invaders and conquerors. And now Leon is making us into the bad guy who are trying to steal the Varja homeworld. I wonder if it will end like the end of space war 1 there we (Frontier) becomes like the Zentradi stranded on the Varja Homeworld living in an uneasy peace with the Varja (until Frontier have rebuilt and colonized the world)?

Even though Leon has ambitions, the simple fact remains that the Vajra have shown no sign of letting up on their attacks, and Frontier CANNOT survive three more months of fighting. This is still a war for the survival of Frontier.

[grss1982]

Well, you must admit that it's difficult to have faith in the actions of someone whose vocabulary is limited to "I'm sorry", "Alto-kun" (various tones), "Ai-kun!" and "Brera-san..."

I think basically it all boils down to the way Ranka made her intentions know in Episode 21. I mean, IIRC she never did say that she wanted to stop the fighting. She just said that she wanted to take Ai-kun home. Now IF she had said that she wanted take Ai-kun home AND to stop the fighting in Episode 21, it would be safe to assume that we wont be having the "Ranka HATE" (Ranka is selfish, Ranka is a traitor, yada yada yada).

This scene (and ep) would have been so much better if they'd simply drawn Grace as she actually is now (in her flightsuit) than in her "mental image" Grace-network incarnation.

http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?act=...st&id=58116

Also---hmmn, with how interested Grace is with Ranka, and being "connected" and the network and everything, is Grace going to try to "possess" Ranka or something?

Uhmmm....her "Despairs & Nightmares" seems to have deflated!!!

Edited September 14, 2008 by grss1982

[Kronnang Dunn]

Even though Leon has ambitions, the simple fact remains that the Vajra have shown no sign of letting up on their attacks, and Frontier CANNOT survive three more months of fighting. This is still a war for the survival of Frontier.

Simple fact or not, Frontier is invading their turf... not the other way around... (and the only culprit behind the whole three month disaster is Leon Mishima).

Leon's argument to Alto was that the Vajra are bent on anihilating humanity... If that's the case why don't they just attack Earth and Eden and wipe us out? He's obviously lying to Alto...

Bilrer on the other hand seems motivated by the whole fold quartz harvesting of the Vajra. They produce the crystals using interstellar matter and raw materials from fixed stars and such. So the bee comparison is very adecuate to me... The fold quartz is like their "honey"... and the Vajra planet is their main hive.

More than destroying us, they want us out of the galactic center... (I wonder why? To protect their main hive? Or something else?)

According to gg subs Ranka was infected in utero with the V-Type strain... So she is immune to its dangerous effects and can communicate with the bugs. Leon said that the Vajra are using her as a foot hold/Vanguard point for taking over and destroying humanity. I guess he's right in part... But she is more like a battle coordinator-queen to them... I also believe the "Aimo" song is their own unique way of interspecies communication.

Is logical to assume that Grace used Ranka to destroy the 117th fleet as a test of Vajra control. It failed and she thought Ranka dead. Now she is using her again and the whole Frontier vs Vajra scenario is a repetition of said experiment...

Edited September 14, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[sketchley]

Daikon and chikuwa soup/stew. Simple to make (water, daikon, chikuwa, katsuo (katsuobushi) and soya sauce to taste. Simple and hearty.

Simple and not easily screwed up is probably the reason why Sheryl opted to make it (though she still ended up slicing open a finger.)

Says a lot about her cooking skills, eh?

what food is this?

[UN Spacy]

veffidas has provided a smaller AVI of GG's version. You'll find it in the first post. Thanks veffidas!

THX a million veffidas!

[azrael]

Daikon and chikuwa soup/stew. Simple to make (water, daikon, chikuwa, katsuo (katsuobushi) and soya sauce to taste. Simple and hearty.

Simple and not easily screwed up is probably the reason why Sheryl opted to make it (though she still ended up slicing open a finger.)

Says a lot about her cooking skills, eh?

Same could be said about her chopstick skills...

[Radd]

More than destroying us, they want us out of the galactic center... (I wonder why? To protect their main hive? Or something else?)

Actually, this was covered. The only reason the Vajra have been attacking Frontier is because of Grace and those she is working with. They have been causing the attacks, using fold waves to goad the Vajra to Frontier. Of course, as things have continued on, it's become a self-perpetuating cycle of attacks, which is exactly what Grace wanted.

[David Hingtgen]

Uhmmm....her "Despairs & Nightmares" seems to have deflated!!!

Though I think whoever said it earlier wasn't being serious, I think they really are adjustable... (hey, makes it a lot easier to impersonate a guy for secret restaurant meetings with Leon)

[DeeBot]

I think basically it all boils down to the way Ranka made her intentions know in Episode 21. I mean, IIRC she never did say that she wanted to stop the fighting. She just said that she wanted to take Ai-kun home. Now IF she had said that she wanted take Ai-kun home AND to stop the fighting in Episode 21, it would be safe to assume that we wont be having the "Ranka HATE" (Ranka is selfish, Ranka is a traitor, yada yada yada).

Wow. Do people really need it spelled out that much for them? Keep in mind that anime in general is overall less dialogue-heavy than a lot of Western media; you have to read between the lines almost all the time.

Leon's argument to Alto was that the Vajra are bent on anihilating humanity... If that's the case why don't they just attack Earth and Eden and wipe us out? He's obviously lying to Alto...

What if... what if they already did? The Vajra can instantaneously fold; humanity hasn't really developed that technology fully yet. If the Vajra successfully attacked Earth and/or Eden, Frontier might not find out for weeks or months...

I don't think it's happened because it'd be too much of a plot twist, but it's well within Vajra capabilities. Whether they could overcome the defenses at Earth in particular, considering what kind of resistance Frontier alone has been putting up, is also an open question.

More than destroying us, they want us out of the galactic center... (I wonder why? To protect their main hive? Or something else?)

I think it's a mistake to think about the Vajra in terms of their physical bodies. The true Vajra are (or rather, is) in the fold network. The corporeal Vajra are just a means to an end, apparently involving fold quartz. The real Vajra is the aggregate of all the V-type organisms.

I'm reminded of the comment about the alien mind from Ender's Game (might have been in one of the sequels), where killing off a few of the individuals was just the mind's way of getting another mind's attention. Little more than a poke, not comprehending that individuals were important for humanity. I don't think the situation with the Vajra is exactly parallel, but I think there's a similar discounting of the individual Vajra bodies.

Simple and not easily screwed up is probably the reason why Sheryl opted to make it (though she still ended up slicing open a finger.)

Says a lot about her cooking skills, eh?

I got the impression Alto did all the cooking, although maybe Sheryl suggested the recipe, since she initially started off helping. It's been quite obvious for a while that Sheryl knows almost nothing about domestic matters, being a sheltered pop star and all. (I wonder if she ever got her laundry done.)

[NoNameSt11]

I think basically it all boils down to the way Ranka made her intentions know in Episode 21. I mean, IIRC she never did say that she wanted to stop the fighting. She just said that she wanted to take Ai-kun home. Now IF she had said that she wanted take Ai-kun home AND to stop the fighting in Episode 21, it would be safe to assume that we wont be having the "Ranka HATE" (Ranka is selfish, Ranka is a traitor, yada yada yada).

Do you really need somebody to hold your hand and tell you their exact intentions all the time? Ranka has never been about boasting to other people. She said she went to Gallia 4 to with Alto happy birthday, but it's clear she was aware of the situation there and that many more people needed help. Also, she responded very modestly to everyone's praise when her song worked to stop the Vajra attacks. She was clearly tired of being used as a tool by the government and knew something was wrong the way she felt pain when the Vajra would die. The reason she said she was taking Ai-kun home was following the same order. If she suddenly declared "I'm going to stop the war" it would've been out of character, even though that is her true agenda as stated in ep. 23. People prefer to ignore things like this to make their argument for hating her seem stronger.

As far as my predictions for the ending: Alto goes back to acting while flying for leisure, Ranka lives and works towards further understanding of the Vajra, and Sheryl gives one last magnificent performance before succumbing to the infection. Anything that gets shippers to shut up about Ranka-end or Sheryl-end would also be fine.

[Radd]

We've still been seeing comments suggesting that a significant number of people still haven't figured out that Galaxy is behind the Vajra attacks, and that the Vajra themselves might not be quite the merciless killing machines Grace would have everyone believe.

[wolfx]

Yay, subs!

A lot of things make more sense... but to my surprise, a lot of things make less sense, too.

First off, the overarching plot: I agree with the theory that Grace's faction used Ranka to penetrate the Vajra fold network. It definitely seems like Grace is merging with the Vajra consciousness, whether by choice or not. This also might point out the interpretation of that mysterious comment concerning something the Protoculture hadn't achieved: Transcendence of physical form. Assuming the Protoculture is really gone, of course...

It seems like fold quartz isn't something only the Vajra can produce, but since the Vajra are like bees, it's easier to go collect it from them rather than doing it ourselves. Man-made fold quartz will probably be possible, following the series.

<snip>

....and lots of other stuff

Wow Deebot you wrote alot that I was too lazy to write. Haha. But yeah your post basically summarises how i think the series will progress. The whole "grace attempting brain hax on vajra" also was called. I think Grace's actual motive is in line with "God-likeness", implanting human conscienceness in an unseen network and able to trenscend physical form. Grace already has the implant-network but probably it has limitations, like a time lag when information is sent long distance. But coupled that with the Vajra's zero-time fold network, information is sent with no lag. And as a plus, biological entities with the V-type virus can be controlled by people in the network.

I wonder what Ranshe meant by "sacrificing them". Who is "them"? Could it be the Vajra, or could it be Ranka and Brera themselves? I have a feeling its the latter and there is a possiblity that Brera is not a blood sibling to Ranka, but a family friend and ultimately, Grace's own son. Then there can be a "I am.....your MOTHER!!!" "NOOOOOO!!" scene in the series.

Sheryl IMHO won't die, but will probably not be the winner of the love triangle either.As some people have mentioned, Alto remains with Sheryl because he realises his actions are superficial and part of his "actor" act. The powerful scene on the rooftop now made more accurate by subs confirms it further and even Sheryl herself realises this.

As for the end of ep 23, the way i see it is something like there are 2 independent networks - Grace's Galaxy network and Vajra's fold network. For Grace to link to Vajra's network, they need a gateway and that gateway is Ranka. However, i dont understand how G.A. could have access or control over Ranka unless they already surgically did something to her.

Also, G.A. has just managed to see the gateway into Vajra's network, I don't know why they are convinced they can take control of the Vajra just by linking up with the network. who knows there might be defenses within the network to prevent break-ins (like your anti-virus s/w), and if the Vajra are made by the PCs, I would expect such defenses especially when they know very well that the Vajra comm network is crucial to the whole species. However, if the show is to end in 2 eps, i guess they will probably not get into such complexities...

Ranka is a kind of "adapter" if you will through the vajra network. Previously there was no way for G.A. to access the vajra network so they tried to create "emulators" through the fairy programme (after the supposed loss of Ranka) but those experiments seem to be failures. Thus Ranka is a true and honest way for the Vajra to attempt communications with the humans by sharing its thoughts with Vajra and make her the ambasaddor to peace. G.A. has different plans and when this attempt for communications work, the alien thought patterns of the Vajra can be easily understood by human ones thus linking G.A. with the Vajra network.

That said they don't need to link to Ranka, they just need the Vajra network to emulate human thought and from there, everything will go down hill.

I believe this scene in episode 24 will put the period in the triangle.

just you wait... Sheryl will win hehe XD *hopes high*

the magnificent vf-27 XD

*hopes high for a new song from May'n next episode* ^____^

I believe that scene is when Sheryl rejects Alto upfront and tells him to go to his true love. I'm no Ranka shipper but i believe this to be pretty much guranteed.

[manwiththemachinegun]

Simple fact or not, Frontier is invading their turf... not the other way around... (and the only culprit behind the whole three month disaster is Leon Mishima).

Leon's argument to Alto was that the Vajra are bent on anihilating humanity... If that's the case why don't they just attack Earth and Eden and wipe us out? He's obviously lying to Alto...

So ten millions civilians have to die because of that? Frontier still has a legitimate reason for fighting, and they likely can't run at this point due to damage. And the Vajra FOLLOWED the Macross fleet and stuck a nest of killer drones inside Island-1 while the fleet was RUNNING AWAY. Real benevolent these bugs are.

The Vajra aren't a threat to Earth now. You're seriously going to trust the good will of a insect swarm that is immune to super nukes? Good luck with that.

This isn't settlers and indians, this is space bugs that rip people apart and have repeatedly pressed the attack on a fleet that has been essentially abandoned to a Darwinian experiment. Xenocide is ugly, but if you think a military force is going to let 10 million civilians die as a matter of "principal" (invading territory = bad) I doubt they'd agree.

My only point is that even provoked, it's silly to make excuses for a race of drones especially given that the bugs have prosecuted aggression against Frontier at EVERY turn never backing down from attacking even when the Frontier was trying to escape. The nest planted on Island-1 especially wasn't summoned there by Grace, the Vajra did that of their own 'will'.

Edited September 14, 2008 by manwiththemachinegun

[Radd]

The Vajra aren't a threat to Earth now. You're seriously going to trust the good will of a insect swarm that is immune to super nukes? Good luck with that.

This isn't settlers and indians, this is space bugs that rip people apart and have repeatedly pressed the attack on a fleet that has been essentially abandoned to a Darwinian experiment. Xenocide is ugly, but if you think a military force is going to let 10 million civilians die as a matter of "principal" (invading territory = bad) I doubt they'd agree.

My only point is that even provoked, it's silly to make excuses for a race of drones especially given that the bugs have prosecuted aggression against Frontier at EVERY turn never backing down from attacking even when the Frontier was trying to escape. The nest planted on Island-1 especially wasn't summoned there by Grace, the Vajra did that of their own 'will'.

Case in point.

[NoNameSt11]

So ten millions civilians have to die because of that? Frontier still has a legitimate reason for fighting, and they likely can't run at this point due to damage. And the Vajra FOLLOWED the Macross fleet and stuck a nest of killer drones inside Island-1 while the fleet was RUNNING AWAY. Real benevolent these bugs are.

The Vajra aren't a threat to Earth now. You're seriously going to trust the good will of a insect swarm that is immune to super nukes? Good luck with that.

This isn't settlers and indians, this is space bugs that rip people apart and have repeatedly pressed the attack on a fleet that has been essentially abandoned to a Darwinian experiment. Xenocide is ugly, but if you think a military force is going to let 10 million civilians die as a matter of "principal" (invading territory = bad) I doubt they'd agree.

My only point is that even provoked, it's silly to make excuses for a race of drones especially given that the bugs have prosecuted aggression against Frontier at EVERY turn never backing down from attacking even when the Frontier was trying to escape. The nest planted on Island-1 especially wasn't summoned there by Grace, the Vajra did that of their own 'will'.

The nest was put there by Grace, and despite that they still encounter free traveling groups of Vajra. If anything, that fold jump moved them further into the Vajra territory, thus looking like more of an offensive than running away. Now, I'm not saying that Frontier shouldn't be defending themselves, but the Vajra aren't necessarily the blood-thirsty villains you make them out to be. You can think of them like a beehive that was thrown at an innocent bystander(Frontier). The bees are still gonna attack the person the beehive hit, despite their intentions. However, the bees aren't looking for a fight, just defending themselves.

[Radd]

Nobody has said that Frontier shouldn't defend themselves, that's the thing.

[VF-25 Messiah]

Let's not forgot the events that led up to battle in episode 14.

From the Vajra perspective the humans attacked and injured their queen on Galia 4, then tried to kill all of them in one strike, even sacrificing a planet in the process. Must've seem pretty vicious... even so they did try and communicate with Ranka, something that has to be very difficult for beings who have "no concepts of self, or induviduality, not needing language or even communication" amongst themselves... Also, while the Vajra did bring a large fleet before the Frontier, which could certainly seem like outright aggression, it was still the humans that fired first...

Personally I thought it was pretty clear from this point that both Vajra and Humans are being pulled around by the nose by Grace... and the very next episode she and her accomplices admit that the earlier entanglements were due to them as well...

Edited September 14, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[Keith]

I really don't see any way Ranka & Alto can end up together, they just haven't spent even remotely enough time together to make it a believable outcome, unless they somehow wind up stranded alone together for a long period of time. I don't see any more to that relationship, than I did to a Mylene & Basara relationship. Sheryl for the win.

And ewww, Vajra intestinal bugs....ewww.

[Final Vegeta]

And ewww, Vajra intestinal bugs....ewww.

Intestinal bacteria/virus. It makes more sense than you could think. Try to see in google how many times intestine and brain are related, especially when it comes to virus. The intestine is so rich of intramucosal nerve cells it's like a second brain.

FV

[Ork_dreadnought]

While I'm probably unique in this, I'm increasingly burnt out and bored with this series. The conspiracy and mystery plots look increasingly shallow (He's Ranka's brother, Ai-Kun is a Vajra, the war is about fold quartz, it all involves M0 etc etc). As for Alto, well, perhaps we're getting somewhere in terms of character development, but its probably too late. More action please.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Ork_dreadnought

[grss1982]

The nest planted on Island-1 especially wasn't summoned there by Grace, the Vajra did that of their own 'will'.

The nest was put there by Grace, and despite that they still encounter free traveling groups of Vajra.

You know this has been really been bothering me for a while....Who really planted that nest in Island 1? Grace or the First Vajras encountered in Episode 1 and 2. IIRC, during Episode 1 & 2 did'nt the Vajra hide in one of the Islands?

[VF-25 Messiah]

I always assumed the nest was hidden on Island 3, in that heavily guarded Vajra research facility that Ozma was going to break into before he faced off with Brera in episode 17. Deliberately planted there by Grace. Makes the most sense to me.

Edited September 14, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[Ork_dreadnought]

You know this has been really been bothering me for a while....Who really planted that nest in Island 1? Grace or the First Vajras encountered in Episode 1 and 2. IIRC, during Episode 1 & 2 did'nt the Vajra hide in one of the Islands?

Yeah, they did. The eggs could have planted there during the chaos of the battel since too. There's been plenty of oppitunity, the only question is exactly why? Have/do the Vajra deliberately leave eggs in fleets they have been unable to destroy, as a kind of time bomb? Possibly I suppose.

[Radd]

Whether or not the Vajra planted the eggs there during the early battles, it still comes down to Grace and Galaxy bringing the Vajra to Frontier in the first place. What I got from one of the more recent episodes is that Grace did not expect the attack which came from those eggs hatching. So I'd guess it was the Vajra themselves, from possibly the battle in episode 1 (rather, the remaining Vajra which were then fought in episode 2 or 3).

As for why, I'd say the most reasonable answer is that the Vajra, who were under attack and being invaded decided to plant a booby trap in case these invading aliens continued to try and wipe them out.