Macross Frontier Episode 23 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[VF-25 Messiah]

Kind of HQ raw out... Huge avi file with unusual resolution

[shan]

I can already see the massive Ranka fanboys in Japan preparing a mobbing session for Alto after he said "Kurosu".

A tragic end when the boy kills his love with his own hands ... epic .

It'll be even more epic if the boy backs out in the end and hugs the girl he loves instead.

That's definitely what's going to take place or this supergalactic love story will turn into a dark one. Despite the deaths, I don't think Macross Frontier will have a bloody dark brooding ending with Alto really killing Ranka. The unconfirmed spoiler Kresphy posted earlier is true. It's true. I can already see things forming that will lead to that. Although, I may just be the only one thinking it hasn't been confirmed yet.

More than Alto's revelation that he loves Ranka, I believe they have FOUND a cure for Sheryl, but Sheryl refused it because it'll weaken her power and maybe some other things. Someone confirm this?

Edited September 11, 2008 by shan

[VF-25 Messiah]

I believe they have FOUND a cure for Sheryl, but Sheryl refused it because it'll weaken her power and maybe some other things. Someone confirm this?

I think it was just the slowing down (what's the correct term?) pills from before, aka witchcraft.

[shan]

I think it was just the slowing down (what's the correct term?) pills from before, aka witchcraft.

Ah, right.

[shinkirou]

let's wait for the subs XD

in how i put this episode: alto has chosen his girl and it's not ranka (implied manner) ranka is the reason why he joined sms and all but now he wants to save everyone which like sheryl does (implied i choose sheryl over ranka) and he has decided to kill ranka if it is for the sake of everyone

then klan speaks out her line with the wordings just like what he said to michel a few eps back "is that your love?"

it's somehow a love with evil intentions mixed in that's why there's the crying and all that jazz

<---- biased pov and telling everyone that they should really wait for the subs XD so don't throw things at me hehehehe just voicing out my biased opinion XD

SK is really playing out his cards right on with all these plot twists XD

(in the next episode, alto

has darth vader eyes

hehehe XD)

peace out! XD

[s-girl]

That's very true, I guess for all his denials of such, Alto is still hypertraditionalist and conservative japanese at the core. Now that you've raised the point it makes me reevaluate his actions quite a bit. If he's thinking with a 1925-vintage typical japanese convservative mindset and morals and expectations of behavior the way he acts makes a lot more sense.

Basically I find that everything "Frustrating" about him taken from the perspective that Alto has been raised counterculture (traditional Japanese, even MORE traditional than today's Japanese) tends to disappear upon reevaluation.

I also tend to think (now watching the raw and verifying some translations from ickem who I tend to feel is fairly level-headed and unbiased in his translations) that the

Alto's frustrations in the previous episode have to do with being so misunderstood. Ozma paints a reason about "protecting women" because he's "a man" that explains why he flies. Ozma talks about "being a man" from that perspective, which is something Alto finds objection to.

In this episode I think KlanKlan was trying to place her concept of "love" on him too and couldn't completely understand his decisions.

But Alto's concept of love may be very different. Maybe it's 'protection' or maybe it's loyalty, or maybe it's something unselfish... or something like "protecting Frontier, the home to all the things that he has loved and cared about."

I grew up in a less-traditional Asian home, but even as such, words were not as important as actions. Taking care of someone, mending their hurts, protecting them, teaching and caring for them... these were far more important elements of love than mere words.

When I see people put overemphasis on "Aisheteru" in any anime fandom, I get annoyed. That's just not the way East Asian cultures work.

In light of that, and believing Alto has a more Asian outlook on life and responsibility, I think I understand the decisions he's made so far. I actually am glad for this episode, because I do'nt think he's a duncehead anymore.

I just think he's different and completely misunderstood. I think I"ve misunderstood him all along, and that possibly others have as well.

Edited September 11, 2008 by s-girl

[shan]

Alto's frustrations in the previous episode have to do with being so misunderstood. Ozma paints a reason about "protecting women" because he's "a man" that explains why he flies. Ozma talks about "being a man" from that perspective, which is something Alto finds objection to.

In this episode I think KlanKlan was trying to place her concept of "love" on him too and couldn't completely understand his decisions.

But Alto's concept of love may be very different. Maybe it's 'protection' or maybe it's loyalty, or maybe it's something unselfish... or something like "protecting Frontier, the home to all the things that he has loved and cared about."

Any man with a decent sense of righteousness will choose what is right before his own heart. I also see no wrong in what Alto had decided. If there is something I learned this episode, it's the fact that Alto

knows that Ranka was the reason he joined SMS. She's the real girl he wants to protect forever, yet protecting Sheryl and Frontier is the right thing to do. It is the "adult" thing to do. Alto is an adult. Ozma is a man. We put two and two together from their confrontation last week, and there you go.

I've always thought that Alto is not aware of the reason why he joined SMS, and he is just acting by mere instincts whenever he gets carried away for Ranka's sake. Michael knew that Alto was aware when he told him in 19 that "Being this dense is criminal". Who knew? Alto is not as dense as we all thought he was. So...that is quite a shocker.

[RichterX]

I almost missed that.

we will get an ending, then the Deculture Edition of the ending and then on the Bluray/ DVD the Yuck Deculture Edition of the ending

[s-girl]

Any man with a decent sense of righteousness will choose what is right before his own heart. I also see no wrong in what Alto had decided. If there is something I learned this episode, it's the fact that Alto

knows that Ranka was the reason he joined SMS. She's the real girl he wants to protect forever, yet protecting Sheryl and Frontier is the right thing to do. It is the "adult" thing to do. Alto is an adult. Ozma is a man. We put two and two together from their confrontation last week, and there you go.

I've always thought that Alto is not aware of the reason why he joined SMS, and he is just acting by mere instincts whenever he gets carried away for Ranka's sake. Michael knew that Alto was aware when he told him in 19 that "Being this dense is criminal". Who knew? Alto is not as dense as we all thought he was. So...that is quite a shocker.

I agree with the former paragraph, but not necessarily all of the latter mostly

because I'm still not sure what kind of 'love' Alto means when it comes to individual characters. He could 'love' both Ranka and Sheryl but in ways that are too subtle for us to understand as well as other characters to get.

.. but don't mind me much. The differences are really not worth dragging out here because I still feel that the truth behind what Alto says in this episode will have to unfold a bit further. I thought I understood Alto to be an immature decisive kid until now but this episode showed me that I did not understand him all along. I may have misunderstood his 'inaction' and silence.

Sometimes silence doesn't mean ignorance... in that sense I'm with you.

I hope as this series ends, Alto finally speaks in a way the audience can put all the pieces together. I want there to be a character moment where we see him address something and we go "AHA - that explains everything about his previous perceived level of indecision."

One that does worry me though is whether the writing team is going to give every villain a "complex" of sorts. That and I don't want a mysterious ending to this season... unless we're getting a second one!

Edited September 12, 2008 by s-girl

[shinkirou]

@s-girl

i agree with you hence,

i think this episode is a plot twister depending on how you may interpret the dialogues specially alto and klan's talk in the end. I think that even when the subs come out, the pov of people will still not change - i rewatched that part 5 times now and as I understood, the translations of the people here are correct but regarding on how you may take what the characters in that scene said and their actions, you will get a bowl of confusion since what happened really does not direct towards one side only but directs to both sides. <--- unbiased opinion (tried to see it in both sides of the coin).

sheryl can be cured but refuses to be cured for the people of frontier as she has influence on the vajra while being terminally ill. sheryl crying + her dialogue when she heard alto and klan's conversation could mean two things:

1.) + for sheryl: she knows that alto really loves her but she wants to stay the way she is (being terminally ill with vajra influencing power) and that's why a tear flowed from her left eye because she was overwhelmed with the drama of alto XD

2.) + for ranka: she knows that alto really loves ranka but she wants the moments of her being with alto to last a little longer while she is still living since she really is pushing her limits here by not being cured and just go on singing+fighting for the people of frontier XD

as for alto, it's just like hikaru and minmay when he joined sms but in this situation, he opened up the option of killing ranka

his dialogue could mean three things:

he joined sms and fought the vajra because of ranka but now, he cares for the lives of the people and when the vajra use her as a tool against them, he will kill ranka...

1.) for the sake of the people of frontier. he loves the people of frontier being alive and all and does not care about trivial selfish reasons like love XD

2.) because ranka has turned all-evil now, even though he loves her being his reason to fight the vajra in the first place. (this is in his POV - i am saying this since we are all faced with some situations only and we are not omnipotent like us, anime fans watching the show hence he only knows that vajra + accomplices = evil) XD

3.) for the sake of the people of frontier which coincides with what sheryl is doing right now - he followed suit being sheryl is uncurable now and all, to continue giving her "courage" (remember the scene where he reflected on the witchcraft medicines while sheryl was sleeping) XD

as for klan's words is that your love and all that blush/redness of cheeks...

1.) klan cried since alto's love for ranka was tragic since he has to kill her... dunno about the relation of the "redness of the cheeks" though in this situation.

2.) klan cried since alto's love for sheryl was finally sealed by alto's dialogue (in an implied manner). dunno about the relation of the "redness of the cheeks" though in this situation as well.

<---- klan's crying + redness of the cheek = what alto's said tantamounts to a firm resolve/decision

so let's give alto a break since he has made a decision/found his resolve as well already XD

the actions + dialogues for me in this episode are really carefully crafted so that it could mean not just one thing. this for me is an ART XD

kudos to the mf team! XD

let's wait the last two epic episodes on how things will finally play out XD

Edited September 12, 2008 by shinkirou

[s-girl]

the actions + dialogues for me in this episode are really carefully crafted so that it could mean not just one thing. this for me is an ART XD

kudos to the mf team! XD

let's wait the last two epic episodes on how things will finally play out XD

Exactly. It's carefully crafted to be vague XD

And now that I see that the writers enjoy loading things to be read with double,triple or possibly more meanings, I am going to have to rewatch Macross Frontier when all is said and done and put on a different hat when looking at Alto... as in... "he knew all along what he was doing."

I still love one of the earlier stsatements he made when Michael challenged him as to why he was flying.

I think he said something like "Do I have to have a reason?"

It's kind of funny. It's actually a deep philosophical question that he seems to ponder, but I wondered about that too. Do you have to have reasons for certain things? What about just having general principles and following them?

It's a kind of zen type question. I wonder if Alto is just being very zen in a way...

[Xeros]

Exactly. It's carefully crafted to be vague XD

And now that I see that the writers enjoy loading things to be read with double,triple or possibly more meanings, I am going to have to rewatch Macross Frontier when all is said and done and put on a different hat when looking at Alto... as in... "he knew all along what he was doing."

I still love one of the earlier stsatements he made when Michael challenged him as to why he was flying.

I think he said something like "Do I have to have a reason?"

It's kind of funny. It's actually a deep philosophical question that he seems to ponder, but I wondered about that too. Do you have to have reasons for certain things? What about just having general principles and following them?

It's a kind of zen type question. I wonder if Alto is just being very zen in a way...

I think he's got the answer in ep 5 by Sheryl

If I remember correctly, he ask why people do something or sorts and Sheryl answer because they mean to it and Klan Agrees whith her

[wolfx]

I think it was just the slowing down (what's the correct term?) pills from before, aka witchcraft.

Alto looks at the pills and say "Muri mo nai....ka" which means "impossible, huh". Interpret that how you will but i think it means the pills do nothing. It depicts that Sheryl still has the will to live despite her disease being on the terminal stage.

As for ppl speculating the ending of who Alto will end up with, its still premature to chisel your theory in stone. This episode depicted as if Alto has chosen Ranka. The reason he flies, the reason he joined SMS, the person he wants to protect. And as a final hammer on the nail, he feels its his responsibility to kill Ranka should he need to. Then there's added "foreshadowing" with Klan's "sore ga omaye no ai ka" phrase while being teary eyed as well as Sheryl's tears and "mou sukoshi dake" (just a while more) and of course, the paper plane that didn't quite flew. I'm just saying stuff based on stuff shown this episode. Next episode might turn the thing 360 degrees so....i wouldn't comment on that on this thread.

[shan]

I think

the scene of Alto and Klan isn't as complicated as some make it to be. It is very straight to the point. Alto chose to protect Frontier over Ranka--the girl he joined SMS for. It's it in his flashbacks. To fight---Ozma flashback. To protect---a flashback of Ranka. Alto said that if Vajra is just going to use Ranka as a tool to kill everyone, then he will kill her himself. This is why Klan said, "is that your love?"

It was revealed that Sheryl all along knew that this is how things are. She always knew that there was something between Alto and Ranka---something that was hinted in 5, 10, 11, especially 14 when Alto set her aside for Ranka.

But wolfx, you may be onto something. Klan and Michael loved each other, yet, Kawamori screwed it up for the sake of emotional impact. What more for his main pairing? He will no doubt screw it up like he had never screwed anything up before.

[grss1982]

And finally there was Nene!!!!

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ne01zt5.jpg

FINALLY!!! After 5 pages someone notices Nene!!! She looks HOT, too.

Klann as well is HOT in this pic.

We could have a 2 hour special final episode, you know?

That would be AWESOME!!!

[Xeros]

a 400 MB HD Raw is out

[wolfx]

I think

the scene of Alto and Klan isn't as complicated as some make it to be. It is very straight to the point. Alto chose to protect Frontier over Ranka--the girl he joined SMS for. It's it in his flashbacks. To fight---Ozma flashback. To protect---a flashback of Ranka. Alto said that if Vajra is just going to use Ranka as a tool to kill everyone, then he will kill her himself. This is why Klan said, "is that your love?"

It was revealed that Sheryl all along knew that this is how things are. She always knew that there was something between Alto and Ranka---something that was hinted in 5, 10, 11, especially 14 when Alto set her aside for Ranka.

But wolfx, you may be onto something. Klan and Michael loved each other, yet, Kawamori screwed it up for the sake of emotional impact. What more for his main pairing? He will no doubt screw it up like he had never screwed anything up before.

I think what you mentioned as "Sheryl all along knew..." was just a simple emotion of jealousy/envy. I wouldn't look into it too deep.

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ne01zt5.jpg

FINALLY!!! After 5 pages someone notices Nene!!! She looks HOT, too.

Klann as well is HOT in this pic.

Yeah! That preview confirms Nene isn't dead! (lol to those vultures who insist she was) And I hated how they under-utilised her in the entire series. Pixie Squadron was only heavily featured in the training excercise with Skull Squadron.

That would be AWESOME!!!

Unless the broadcaster(s) has agreed to let them have two timeslots, which isn't the case, i highly doubt it.

[Morpheus]

So Alto joins NUNS now with their new VF-171EX toys, but he still wear SMS uniform. Also did I hear Leon ordering Frontier to do emergency fold jump to the Vajra homeworld? Very suicidal, I mean he taking the entire Frontier Island cluster with it, did he plan to conquer the planet and colonize it? Whoever win the battle, Frontier is doomed.

Also talking about limiting resource on Frontier, I think its time for Galaxy to show up and offer a solution: turn everyone to Cyborg, that would solve the resource problems.

[bullet101]

Of course Klan could be asking "is that your love" in relation to Alto's will to fight and kill. I.e. he choose to fight and kill over being with the woman he loves.

Edited September 12, 2008 by bullet101

[RedWolf]

So Alto joins NUNS now with their new VF-171EX toys, but he still wear SMS uniform. Also did I hear Leon ordering Frontier to do emergency fold jump to the Vajra homeworld? Very suicidal, I mean he taking the entire Frontier Island cluster with it, did he plan to conquer the planet and colonize it? Whoever win the battle, Frontier is doomed.

Also talking about limiting resource on Frontier, I think its time for Galaxy to show up and offer a solution: turn everyone to Cyborg, that would solve the resource problems.

Err... If Grace is any indication Galaxy's leaders are no better than Leon.

Both are out to conquer the Milky Way their own way.

Fold quartz for Leon while

the Vajra network

for Galaxy Anonymous.

[grss1982]

So Alto joins NUNS now with their new VF-171EX toys, but he still wear SMS uniform. Also did I hear Leon ordering Frontier to do emergency fold jump to the Vajra homeworld? Very suicidal, I mean he taking the entire Frontier Island cluster with it, did he plan to conquer the planet and colonize it? Whoever win the battle, Frontier is doomed.

Also talking about limiting resource on Frontier, I think its time for Galaxy to show up and offer a solution: turn everyone to Cyborg, that would solve the resource problems.

So does this mean that the VF-171EX will be his ride for the rest of the show?

So its true then bye bye VF-25F.

[TehPW]

Err... If Grace is any indication Galaxy's leaders are no better than Leon.

Both are out to conquer the Milky Way their own way.

Fold quartz for Leon while

the Vajra network

for Galaxy Anonymous.

2 episodes left....

and for all this what if's.... here's the H-Bomb: Season 2? you think they can enclose all the sh*te Macross Galaxy is upto? Since i keep getting confusing vibs (Wiped out? Hidding in the shadows for the right time for SA for 4d6 damage? )

either way, i'd be pissed if ONLY 25 episodes get made. How is MF doing financially in gross market sales?

[shinkirou]

yeah more action for that mean-machine vf-171ex XD

[RichterX]

2 episodes left....

and for all this what if's.... here's the H-Bomb: Season 2? you think they can enclose all the sh*te Macross Galaxy is upto? Since i keep getting confusing vibs (Wiped out? Hidding in the shadows for the right time for SA for 4d6 damage? )

either way, i'd be pissed if ONLY 25 episodes get made. How is MF doing financially in gross market sales?

i think by know you should know that Kawamori will enclose a serie in the last episode and then give the finger to anyone that complains by making a movie as a continuation of a serie and give the finger to anyone that complain with unsolved issues as the movie doesn't address any of this issues.

[007-vf1]

This is going to end like Mospeada... Ranka will turn into a green queen Vajra and will fly away like an energy bird along with the herd to the other end of the galaxy because Alto and his humans has polluted this side of town...

Grace will get caught into the tail of energy and will turn to dust anime stile.

Klan will finally get normal boobs when micronized...

[aerocombatpilot]

i think by know you should know that Kawamori will enclose a serie in the last episode and then give the finger to anyone that complains by making a movie as a continuation of a serie and give the finger to anyone that complain with unsolved issues as the movie doesn't address any of this issues.

That's just Kawamori going all "Kawamori" on us!

[wolfx]

i think by know you should know that Kawamori will enclose a serie in the last episode and then give the finger to anyone that complains by making a movie as a continuation of a serie and give the finger to anyone that complain with unsolved issues as the movie doesn't address any of this issues.

Shoji Kawamori != Hideaki Anno.

or is he.....?

[Vince]

THIS is how it all going to end --

Sheryl and Ranka pull a fusion and become .... oh wait, never mind.

And

Alto's 171ex with get shot down by Brera, and then break out a new vf-25f.

[azrael]

12-hours over. No more spoiler tags needed.

-I won't comment on the love triangle. I'll save that for the TV finale in 2 weeks. Kawamori will milk it till the bitter end. I'll just wait and see while both camps fight amongst themselves.

-I will say; it only took Ranka leaving him, Ozma and Yasaburo talking him down, downtime with Sheryl to get through to that blockhead. Jeez, that head of his must be dense enough to stop a reaction warhead.

-Must suck to be a cyborg, Brera. Especially when Grace can grab your balls wirelessly.

-And Ranka...Brera ain't your brother anymore now that he's Grace's dog. Only way to save him, is to kill him.

-I get the feeling Leon wanted what Grace and her cohorts wanted. Boy is that gonna backfire.

-And Leon is pretty funny to fold the entire fleet to the Vajra homeworld. Got a Macross 7 vibe there.

-So the Vajra are like Zerg mixed with bees...Bees. My god.

[kensei]

-Must suck to be a cyborg, Brera. Especially when Grace can grab your balls wirelessly.

-And Ranka...Brera ain't your brother anymore now that he's Grace's dog. Only way to save him, is to kill him.

Or to kill Grace.

[Morpheus]

Finally the Mod has spoken.

Grace is a Colonel, which mean she is the most complicated character in Frontier. She was a scientist, a manager, a spy, a planet-bomber, and now a colonel .

I also interested in the recon Ghost, it seems like it could fold on its own.

Why do I go the feeling the final battle will be a three way battle between Vajra-SMS-NUNS, also don't forget Galaxy faction which makes that four-way battle.

IMO, the Ranka-hater and Sheryl-hater must now turn into Alto-hater, since this is the guys that's responsible for the trainwreck. Ranka and Sheryl is just another victim of his ego. He want to fly, he wants to protect, hell, Alto is just another pretty Kabuki player.

I say put Alto back on his Kabuki makeup and make him sing Enka on Battle Frontier bridge during the last battle and let Sheryl fly his VF-171EX, I bet that would cause more damage than Dimensional Eater.

[azrael]

Or to kill Grace.

Nah, he could be stuck in that mode permanently or another one of Grace's cohorts could take control. Just end the misery.

[Morpheus]

Or to kill Grace.

Or to download her personality/data/A.I/Collective into an I-phone and infect her with Microsoft bugs.

[Hiriyu]

Here's my bit of fan speculation:

It would be rather poetic if Brera were to be the one to take out Grace in the end - "Quit it with that tasp button already, you... you witch!". Of course, he would become mortally wounded during his struggle with G. We could have a protracted, melodramatic scene wherein Ranka attempts to drag his damaged body to an escape shuttle, while Brera's life ebbs. A tearful heart-to-heart dialog ensues... "There's still good in you!". And then... Ah, stuff it - It's been done. Can't remember where, though.

Good episode, I enjoyed it very much.

[Morpheus]

Here's my bit of fan speculation:

It would be rather poetic if Brera were to be the one to take out Grace in the end - "Quit it with that tasp button already, you... you witch!". Of course, he would become mortally wounded during his struggle with G. We could have a protracted, melodramatic scene wherein Ranka attempts to drag his damaged body to an escape shuttle, while Brera's life ebbs. A tearful heart-to-heart dialog ensues... "There's still good in you!". And then... Ah, stuff it - It's been done. Can't remember where, though.

Good episode, I enjoyed it very much.

And Vajra Knight Ranka cremated his late brother Darth Brera and the spirits of her mother Ranshee and Vajra Master Mao attending as Fold Ghost, while the Big-Zams vajra celebrated while watching the remains of Frontier falling as shooting star in the skies.

(smack self in head)