Macross Frontier Episode 23 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Cybergig1]

keep the faith boys! it's always darkest before the storm finally breaks.

I hear you I'm holding on with all I got the tensions killer!

[Xeros]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if he ends alone in the vajra planet, acting kabuki for the queen xD

Edited September 11, 2008 by Xeros

[RF-26AAC]

fork you, Alto. You disappoint me to the end.

I cannot express my disgust with this boy's level of indecision. For someone who is so impulsive and so eager to jump to conclusions, it astounds me that he can't make up his mind whether or not he even likes anyone.

Hell, maybe he never really liked anybody! Alto was never a Hikaru, and was never passionate about either female in the love triangle, about the only thing he was passionate about is that he has to be the one to save the day (for ranka)... it was always about saving Ranka... he joined SMS to protect Ranka like Hikaru joined to protect Minmay though I don't think his motivations for his reasoning are anywhere near what Hikaru's were... Hikaru wanted to protect Minmay because he cared about her, whereas Alto just wants to save the day... probably for anyone.

God, he is so self-absorbed and masturbatory.

It's sickening.

*sharp exhale* glad I got that out there.

And yet, last ep he actually opened up to Sheryl and showed some actual compassion and caring... but then, he is a masterful actor.

Edited September 11, 2008 by RF-26AAC

[Duke Togo]

I don't see the indecision.

He's chosen to defend the Frontier, his home.

[magnuskn]

Let´s just say that some stories of what Alto actually said are.... exaggerated.

[rubi]

Why people are so disappointed ?

He choose his girl, right, but they have less chance to end up together now that he said he will kill her.

Either him or her dies at the end with a sheryl who is cured . They can't kill her,but if they do, I will be shocked for a long time !

[s-girl]

Let´s just say that some stories of what Alto actually said are.... exaggerated.

I found after watching GG's and Lunar's subs from the last episode that my understanding of certain scenes shifted considerably as did my perceptions of certain characters from what people were saying in the forum discussions that followed the raw release.

Based on the initial debating here, I'll wait for the sub, I think, before jumping in on this one or wait for translations from a few folks first before drawing any conclusions.

Edited September 11, 2008 by s-girl

[RF-26AAC]

Ok, Ok, I mean the indecision in choosing one girl or another.

What kind of a cop-out is saying "I love my home" instead of "I love (insert girl/boy name here)"??

He was perfectly decisive in saying "I'll kill Ranka, if it comes down to it."

[RedWolf]

I'm beginning to suspect Grace and Galaxy Anonymous was the reason why the Global was attacked.

Brera called Grace Colonel.

Even though Grace was born on Global she became a UN Spacy officer on Macross Galaxy.

But as with some UN officers of that era she was corruptible and became their spy on Dr. Mao's work.

Galaxy Anonymous, a bunch of cyborgs, offered her eternal life. Their plan was to take the very existence of the Vajra and become god like.

But their attempt to take control of them and Ranka's singing led to the attack on Global. Doing it while Ranshe was with her kids.

But where is Mao? I think Grace and company captured her and used her to produce Sheryl.

The earring coming from Sheryl's mother was not a lie. Somewhere along the line Mao manages to sneak away Sheryl in Galaxy. But due to her old age Mao expired leaving Sheryl alone as an orphan. Till Grace manages to find Sheryl again as a street urchin.

[magnuskn]

Ok, Ok, I mean the indecision in choosing one girl or another.

What kind of a cop-out is saying "I love my home" instead of "I love (insert girl/boy name here)"??

He was perfectly decisive in saying "I'll kill Ranka, if it comes down to it."

He would also protect Sheryl by protecting his home, because she obviously considers Frontier her home now.

It shows he also cares about something more, just like Sheryl, so give the guy some credit. It´s an obvious red herring to that Sheryl can feel doubt about her relationship.

[Duke Togo]

People who are saying that Alto

chose Ranka in this episode

are spreading false rumors.

[RedWolf]

Guess the reason why Alto screamed last ep is because he can't protect them.

The women he loves.

[RichterX]

I will wait for a subbed version, translations can be biased by personal feelings...

[aerocombatpilot]

While I was hoping that this would be a more character-driven episode, the plot revelations really came fast and furious. I can't wait for a sub so I can find out what they were. Anyway, I think they're set up nicely for the final two episodes; anything could happen, at this point.

Overall, not an episode I'd watch more than a couple times, probably, but it serves its purpose. I was borderline positive on this one.

I agree that this episode comes at you pretty fast. It almost feels like they said: "What! Only three episode left?"

As far as the episode goes, I'm going wait and see the sub on this one. It's not bad, and I would vote it positive, however I've gotten to the point where I just want it to end, and I no longer care about the whole Ranka, Alto, Sheryl triangler. They killed Michel and left poor Klan just dangling. Nasase is in a coma and Grace will

probably be killed in her valk!

All the characters I really liked are dead or doomed including

Ranka

, So just let it end.

[VF-25 Messiah]

I will wait for a subbed version, translations can be biased by personal feelings...

Same could be said for the subs really. But I know what you mean. I was being very careful to avoid being biased in what little i actually did throw out a translation for.

[s-girl]

The same thing can be said for newsreports and papers... hence why I often read more than one source for news stories.(And this is non-translated English )

I actually didn't have problems with the fansubs for the episodes. What I find challenging is that the merits of dialogue are being debated by non-native speakers for the most part in various forums and communities based on one fansub alone or snippets of dialogue being generously translated by other fans.

Then there is cultural filtering, which I feel sometimes is occurring in greater degree. I had very different interpretation of Episode 22 from the majority of the forum -- as relates to the Sheryl x Alto scene, but that's based on my biased Asian-American point of view of what is contextually appropriate to express and how 'love' is often not expressed.

I don't mean to discuss episode 22 here in an ep23 thread, but let's say that I disagree with most of the discussion that's occurred here on the "lack of meaning" of the SxA scene. It doesn't mean I'm right, but it does mean I differ based on my relative Asian background versus others who are from different countries and different cultural situations.

Edited September 11, 2008 by s-girl

[RichterX]

Same could be said for the subs really. But I know what you mean. I was being very careful to avoid being biased in what little i actually did throw out a translation for.

I should have said i will wait for the different subs to pop out. will actually watch different subtitles to try to get the whole picture.

[akt_m]

Just watched the raws, couldn't stop laughing at the commercial with the dude using a gundam light saber. wtf??? 

[MisaForever]

So where is the scene with Grace fondling her..... assets?

[RF-26AAC]

The same thing can be said for newsreports and papers... hence why I often read more than one source for news stories.(And this is non-translated English )

I actually didn't have problems with the fansubs for the episodes. What I find challenging is that the merits of dialogue are being debated by non-native speakers for the most part in various forums and communities based on one fansub alone or snippets of dialogue being generously translated by other fans.

Then there is cultural filtering, which I feel sometimes is occurring in greater degree. I had very different interpretation of Episode 22 from the majority of the forum -- as relates to the Sheryl x Alto scene, but that's based on my biased Asian-American point of view of what is contextually appropriate to express and how 'love' is often not expressed.

I don't mean to discuss episode 22 here in an ep23 thread, but let's say that I disagree with most of the discussion that's occurred here on the "lack of meaning" of the SxA scene. It doesn't mean I'm right, but it does mean I differ based on my relative Asian background versus others who are from different countries and different cultural situations.

That's some useful insight that I don't get from my girlfriend (okinawan with western upbringing-- american dad/japanese mother-- she went to the english-speaking international HS)... she's useful in the common societal context but doesn't understand the 'unexpressed love' theme common in quite a few anime series.

what baffles me though, is given how oversexualized anime has become, their is still extreme conservatism and restraint regarding the expression of love, public displays of affection and so-on.

what do you think?

[Final Vegeta]

Unless Alto said "ai shiteiru" or "omae no koto suki" he could have meant anything

FV

Edited September 11, 2008 by Final Vegeta

[Xeros]

So where is the scene with Grace fondling her..... assets?

dude, It was at the end of the episode 22

[MisaForever]

dude, It was at the end of the episode 22

Oh duh!! I thought that was a trailer for the next episode!!!

[akt_m]

ok, cannot express the amount of WTF I've got going on right now

also I think an altoxranka ending just became Plausible again... NOOOO!!!!!

Or kawamori just want us to think this way, still could happen like in DYRL.

[Kronnang Dunn]

The earring coming from Sheryl's mother was not a lie. Somewhere along the line Mao manages to sneak away Sheryl in Galaxy. But due to her old age Mao expired leaving Sheryl alone as an orphan. Till Grace manages to find Sheryl again as a street urchin.

Like I have posted several times before... Mao wasn't that old... She was 11 years old in 2008... Frontier is set in 2059... Do the math...

I don't see the indecision.

He's chosen to defend the Frontier, his home.

Agreed... Indecision? Hell... I've never seen Alto so focused in the entire series!!!! (Life is not just about getting the girl, you know?)

Btw... Excellent episode!!!!

Like I thought...

The Galaxy Anonymous want to control the Vajra by absorbing/merging their own fold network with theirs...

Grace could have been an agent of theirs all along...

Now that Brera is in her total control, I suspect we may see Brera vs Alto very soon...

Luca looked just fine in that uniform. No blushed cheeks anymore... He just became a Hikaru... (without the flying skills that is...)

And finally there was Nene!!!!

Request: Does anybody has a clear pic of

the close up of the Vajra planet's spiral? And the Super Queen/Empress head... And Ranka in the Vajra bed... (was she inside the Super Queen?)

Edited September 11, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Necron_99]

Ai-kun is so cute!

[DeeBot]

Ai-kun is so cute!

Was that before or after he ate Ranka?

Just kidding; just doing my part to spread false rumors around.

Though that does raise an interesting point: Was Ai-kun taken control of when his eyes flashed red? Do Vajra like Ai-kun have independent (if limited) intelligence? If the Vajra are hooked into the fold neural net, and that net has been hijacked to some extent by the Galaxy Anonymous crew, could perhaps G.A. be the Vajra, at least the aggressive aspect we've seen that's constantly attacking our heroes?

Of course, that would make a lot of other stuff not make sense; G.A. wouldn't be so seemingly in the dark about the Vajra if that were the case. But perhaps there's a partial influence there, a leaking of violent tendencies across the net...

Side note: One of my favorite scenes in this episode was when Alto and his two cannon fodder wingmen were jabbering. Shades of Hikaru.

[s-girl]

what baffles me though, is given how oversexualized anime has become, their is still extreme conservatism and restraint regarding the expression of love, public displays of affection and so-on.

what do you think?

This comes down to what kind of writers we have present. I personally write from the perspective that the character drives the expression and the plot as opposed to trying to express the character according to audience mores and values. I don't know if that makes sense, but I would never bother creating a character with an East Asian background that doesn't reflect it in someway unless I was trying to just go for an impression.

My feeling is that Alto's background needs to be taken into consideration when evaluating his interactions. That said, I think there's more to the scene than has been interpreted so far on these and other English-speaking boards .

While some people need the kiss/sex to derive proof of deep feelings between characters, that is not something that is (to this day) generally expressed on most drama-based television in Japan and Korea. (Movies are wholly different matter.) Certainly anime falls outside those conventions, but I've never felt kawamori and Studio Nue write for that genre/niche of anime fans. I think they write what they perceive as fantasy or space opera or sci-fi first and might be sliglhtly surprised to think that they should conform to what anime has become lately.

Certainly the "I won't believe it until I have proof" is a cultural concept as well that is more Western in origin, so for folks who won't believe something until it's spelt out for them, many things will be unsatisfying because life is not always literal.

Edited September 11, 2008 by s-girl

[anime52k8]

You'll never give up hope will you ?

never...

[DeeBot]

I agree that this episode comes at you pretty fast. It almost feels like they said: "What! Only three episode left?"

Well, I think that's sorta been true of Frontier as a whole. The pacing's been pretty fast, with a lot of rapid cutting, even episodes that don't move the plot anywhere. This hasn't been a series that spends a lot of time dwelling on, say, a shot of the WTF-1. I wish they'd linger more on some scenes, but I guess that's the reality of storytelling in the television medium.

This does worry me a little bit when it comes to episodes 24 and 25. I'm afraid they're going to blow their production budget on the mecha pr0n, like they've done twice already back in episodes 7 and 14. I mean, this is the finale and all. However, long action sequences eat up exposition time. I'm convinced we'll get all the answers, but maybe not in as much detail as I'd like. Then again, I always thought they did a wonderful job combining plot and action back in episode 27 of SDFM, so maybe it's not completely impossible.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Well, I think that's sorta been true of Frontier as a whole. The pacing's been pretty fast, with a lot of rapid cutting, even episodes that don't move the plot anywhere. This hasn't been a series that spends a lot of time dwelling on, say, a shot of the WTF-1. I wish they'd linger more on some scenes, but I guess that's the reality of storytelling in the television medium.

This does worry me a little bit when it comes to episodes 24 and 25. I'm afraid they're going to blow their production budget on the mecha pr0n, like they've done twice already back in episodes 7 and 14. I mean, this is the finale and all. However, long action sequences eat up exposition time. I'm convinced we'll get all the answers, but maybe not in as much detail as I'd like. Then again, I always thought they did a wonderful job combining plot and action back in episode 27 of SDFM, so maybe it's not completely impossible.

We could have a 2 hour special final episode, you know?

Edited September 11, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[MisaForever]

This comes down to what kind of writers we have present. I personally write from the perspective that the character drives the expression and the plot as opposed to trying to express the character according to audience mores and values. I don't know if that makes sense, but I would never bother creating a character with an East Asian background that doesn't reflect it in someway unless I was trying to just go for an impression.

My feeling is that Alto's background needs to be taken into consideration when evaluating his interactions. That said, I think there's more to the scene than has been interpreted so far on these and other English-speaking boards .

While some people need the kiss/sex to derive proof of deep feelings between characters, that is not something that is (to this day) generally expressed on most drama-based television in Japan and Korea. (Movies are wholly different matter.) Certainly anime falls outside those conventions, but I've never felt kawamori and Studio Nue write for that genre/niche of anime fans. I think they write what they perceive as fantasy or space opera or sci-fi first and might be sliglhtly surprised to think that they should conform to what anime has become lately.

Certainly the "I won't believe it until I have proof" is a cultural concept as well that is more Western in origin, so for folks who won't believe something until it's spelt out for them, many things will be unsatisfying because life is not always literal.

Eh? I just don't like speculation. I like to wait and see what actually happens instead of GUESSING what is GOING to happen because if you do that, you can easily be disappointed.

[RF-26AAC]

This comes down to what kind of writers we have present. I personally write from the perspective that the character drives the expression and the plot as opposed to trying to express the character according to audience mores and values. I don't know if that makes sense, but I would never bother creating a character with an East Asian background that doesn't reflect it in someway unless I was trying to just go for an impression.

My feeling is that Alto's background needs to be taken into consideration when evaluating his interactions. That said, I think there's more to the scene than has been interpreted so far on these and other English-speaking boards .

While some people need the kiss/sex to derive proof of deep feelings between characters, that is not something that is (to this day) generally expressed on most drama-based television in Japan and Korea. (Movies are wholly different matter.) Certainly anime falls outside those conventions, but I've never felt kawamori and Studio Nue write for that genre/niche of anime fans. I think they write what they perceive as fantasy or space opera or sci-fi first and might be sliglhtly surprised to think that they should conform to what anime has become lately.

Certainly the "I won't believe it until I have proof" is a cultural concept as well that is more Western in origin, so for folks who won't believe something until it's spelt out for them, many things will be unsatisfying because life is not always literal.

That's very true, I guess for all his denials of such, Alto is still hypertraditionalist and conservative japanese at the core. Now that you've raised the point it makes me reevaluate his actions quite a bit. If he's thinking with a 1925-vintage typical japanese convservative mindset and morals and expectations of behavior the way he acts makes a lot more sense.

Also, the "I won't believe it until I have proof" ideology has strengthened as the imagination of the western civilization continues to wither away.

Maybe I should start thinking about this with more of an eye to japanese drama than to western science fiction and drama plots.

Or we could have "The Hills" on Frontier.

MisaForever, speculation is *fun*!

I'd rather guess and be wrong than worry about shielding myself from disappointment.

If I was afraid of being disappointed, I wouldn't have a favorite driver in F1 (who isn't that bastard Lewis Hamilton).

Edited September 11, 2008 by RF-26AAC

[DeeBot]

We could have a 2 hour special final episode, you know?

I almost missed that.

[aerocombatpilot]

Well, I think that's sorta been true of Frontier as a whole. The pacing's been pretty fast, with a lot of rapid cutting, even episodes that don't move the plot anywhere. This hasn't been a series that spends a lot of time dwelling on, say, a shot of the WTF-1. I wish they'd linger more on some scenes, but I guess that's the reality of storytelling in the television medium.

This does worry me a little bit when it comes to episodes 24 and 25. I'm afraid they're going to blow their production budget on the mecha pr0n, like they've done twice already back in episodes 7 and 14. I mean, this is the finale and all. However, long action sequences eat up exposition time. I'm convinced we'll get all the answers, but maybe not in as much detail as I'd like. Then again, I always thought they did a wonderful job combining plot and action back in episode 27 of SDFM, so maybe it's not completely impossible.

I think you're right, we'll get all the answers but I don't think we're gonna be happy with way their given. I think there's going to be hurried expositions amid massive mecha battles. Things that should take time to explain, will be shouted back'n forth between missiles vollies and gun fire. I really think there's too much to finish off the entire series with just two episodes, at least with any real closure. This feels so much like the X-Files finale where nothing really was resolved, just the smoking man gets killed (I guess). I really think they wasted alot of time in the beginning episodes and now their trying to cram and ending down our throats with just two left. Unless they are hour long episodes, I think we're going to get shafted!!