Macross Frontier Episode 23 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[dreamweaver13]

lol!

dig your new avatar by the way. i just find it irresistible when they do that

whispo made it for me. and yes, once they do that, it's game over, i'm a slave. .

[Chronocidal]

It's a meta-harmonica. Don't ask

Regarding the v-type bacteria/virus: Remember the discussion of the 'Viral Evolution Theory' in Mac Zero? This concept wasn't really fleshed out in that series. It could be that the Vajra were [and are] an unintended host for a previously developed Protoculture tech, or a part thereof. Exposure could have been by chance, or due to human intervention. Dr. Mao, anyone?

Well despite the speed of that scene, there was obviously time for Ranka and Brera to both get their helmets on, since Ranka wasn't wearing one at first either, and she doesn't have cyborg vision (that we know of anyway ).

About the virus thing though.. holeee crap. I think my brain just pulled itself out of joint.

Just for the moment, lets assume the viral evolution thing is correct, and the way the PC forcefully evolved different species was based on manufactured viruses. Makes good sense; the evo-virus modifies genetics, changes are passed on to the next generation. The question is just whether the old generation can survive the changes long enough to reproduce and make healthy beings who are immune any bad side effects of the virus.

I actually had to go look up the process of viral infections to get a grasp on this, but I'm getting the idea of what type of virus a V-type infection is, at least in terms of this show. It seems like a virus that's not meant to just infect cells and reproduce, but rather modify them, and continue to spread. Many viruses infect healthy cells, make the cell produce a bunch of viruses, then the cell self destructs like a viral frag grenade, spreading newly manufactured viral material to other cells to similarly destroy them.

However, there are other types of viruses that don't destroy the host cell, they only modify it. I think they're referred to as enveloped viruses, and what they do is turn the host cell into a virus production factory that produces new virus material that leaves the production cell by natural cell reproduction methods.

What I'm wondering now is whether the PC might have engineered viruses designed to affect very specific changes in a host's DNA. Like say you wanted to make someone's hair grow a new color ... every cell within an organism contains the full DNA for a living being, so if you could pinpoint the specific bits of DNA that control the production of hair, you could change things just enough to alter the balance of materials produced within the follicles, or maybe even cause the follicles to produce artificial compounds that would give unnatural hair colors. So, this virus would infect a cell, and do two things. First, it would alter the specific bits of DNA necessary to make the change you wanted. Second, it would alter that specific cell just enough so that it began producing more of the virus and more altered cells of the same type, both by natural cell division, and by budding (the type of reproduction in many bacteria where a new cell just breaks off of an old one).

Now, until this hair color virus actually reached the cells that produce hair, you wouldn't see any effects. But assuming the new DNA gets transferred correctly, once the cells around the hair follicles get modified by the virus, the chemical makeup of the hairs produced would be different. It wouldn't even need to be color, you could alter thickness, strength, go from curly to straight, any number of things that depend on the chemical structure of the hair.

The virus would need one more thing though: a self termination instruction. Say if the cell modification was entirely successful, and every cell in the target's body was modified with new DNA, then there's a lot of energy to be saved by not producing the viral infection agent anymore. And here's what I'm wondering... Ranshe obviously had the Virus, and Sheryl does now as well. So does Ranka, but she's the second generation, and it's not killing her. I seriously wonder if the continued production of viral material after all the cells in the body are modified could saturate the body to such a point that it would actually self destruct. The cutoff switch to producing that material may be linked to reproduction.. say the production code doesn't get transferred into newly formed cells, or it's modified, so while Ranka carries the virus in her cells, it's not overproducing, and not making her sick.

Now, the thing with the virus both Ranka and Sheryl have.. it modifies something that makes it so people can produce fold waves. Exactly what the source is is up for grabs, but as the virus progresses, Sheryl is getting better at it, and Ranka, since she's a second generation of the virus, is naturally good at it.

Heh.. funny thought... if the Vajra network is like a giant brain, they're used to having thoughts transmitted both ways, in coherent patterns. Ranka isn't connected the same way. She's basically sending interference into the network, like junk mail with no return address. Basically, Ranka's singing is the rough equivalent of the Vajra hive mind hearing voices in its head.

So, the question now is where the virus came from. I get the impression that if it is an evo-virus from the PC, it might not have been meant for humans.. and I'm not sure it was meant for the Vajra either. What if it was an experiment by the PC that went wrong (or maybe right)? A unified consciousness sounds an awful lot like the PC may have been trying to evolve themselves for once, instead of other species.

Edited to add one more thought...

There's one more thing I wonder about.. the story they gave Sheryl said that once the virus makes it into the brain, it'll kill you. I wonder if that's the whole truth or not, and what the cause of death actually would be. For instance.. We haven't seen anyone actually die from the virus (and I hope we don't). We've seen the hydra go mad, and start attacking things, but I wouldn't call that death. Just a thought, but what if infection of the brain actually means that you suddenly get plugged into the Vajra neural network? It'd probably be similar to trying to connect an old IBM 386 to a 3G network.

Once the virus is allowed to modify enough of the brain, I wonder if you'd be getting the whole hive mind downloaded to your brain instantaneously. Granted, without being prepared for it, the shock of that might indeed kill you. But what they didn't explain was why the Hyrda went insane first... would the final stages of infection cause symptoms of insanity in humans too? Imagine suddenly being connected to the entire hive mind, with no idea of where it's coming from. It'd probably resemble schizophrenia, or maybe multiple personality disorder at the very least.

So here's the question.. If anyone has actually died of the v-type virus, it may be from neural overload, or just becoming completely disoriented and shocked from the connection, and unable to live normal life. As determined as Sheryl is, she may be able to survive this, but I kinda doubt that.

Here's the wacky far-fetched bit though... I remembered someone calling Ranka an "adapter" of sorts, which would allow a link between the G.A. collective consiousness (ie, humans) and the vajra hive mind. What if Ranka becoming linked to the hive mind would give a focal point of sorts to that mind? She'd be like a single consciousness allowing translation into terms that individual human minds could understand. In other words, her presence in the network may be the one thing that saves Sheryl from self destructing in the final stages of the virus. Whether or not she knew it, Ranka has been developing her own connection to that neural network from birth, and was born with the ability to connect to it. I still think that mental thing between her and Sheryl during the concert was a sign that they could actually already connect, even with Sheryl's early stage of the disease. Rather than a sudden connection, for Ranka it has been a gradual process, something that didn't make her go insane, or kill her from the amount of info overload.

Btw, I don't pretend to know much about medicine, the virus stuff is all just picked off a basic decription I found of how they generally work. If anyone has better ideas about the source of the virus, or how it works, I'd love to hear.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Chronocidal

[CF18]

One thing still don't make sense - Leon say the Vajia is planning to use Ranka as their weapon to destroy human. Now how the hell can that work? To human Ranka is just a girl that can sing. There is no human-brain network for her to hack, or a super birdhuman for her to drive.

[sdf2501]

One thing still don't make sense - Leon say the Vajia is planning to use Ranka as their weapon to destroy human. Now how the hell can that work? To human Ranka is just a girl that can sing. There is no human-brain network for her to hack, or a super birdhuman for her to drive.

It's all lies and manipulation by Leon. Like they say, if you want to fool someone, hide a lie in a truth; makes it easier to swallow. Most of the information he gave at the beginning was probably correct; he probably fibbed a bit when it came to Ranka's intentions.

[Chronocidal]

One other thing... I don't remember if he's aware that Grace survived (dunno how anyone could miss the carnage she left, but he may have missed the memo), but assuming he does know, he's probably quaking in his hair about what she'll do to him if they meet again. He probably wants all the defense he can get.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Chronocidal

[Kronnang Dunn]

One thing still don't make sense - Leon say the Vajia is planning to use Ranka as their weapon to destroy human. Now how the hell can that work? To human Ranka is just a girl that can sing. There is no human-brain network for her to hack, or a super birdhuman for her to drive.

She's a coordinator/little queen for the Vajra... Through her singing the Vajra consciousness could manage to control the Vajra to fight even more effectively.... Kinda like the emulators from Macross II (Just another tribute of sorts).

Also remember how in Episode 20 the Vajra attack became even more agressive when she became sad while singing...

[DeeBot]

One thing still don't make sense - Leon say the Vajia is planning to use Ranka as their weapon to destroy human. Now how the hell can that work? To human Ranka is just a girl that can sing. There is no human-brain network for her to hack, or a super birdhuman for her to drive.

Or... is there? (Bold emphasis is mine.)

One of the recurring themes of Macross is the almost mystical power of music and culture. Ranka became quite the overnight singing sensation; perhaps it wasn't just because she has a great voice. It might be possible, under the rules the Macross universe operates under, for the Vajra to attack humanity purely through Ranka's song. (Alternately, Galaxy choosing Frontier because of its lack of cybernetics may have been because Galaxy believed this would make Frontier more resistant to Vajra influence, giving them enough time to make their back-hack.)

I assumed a more prosaic theory, though. Regardless of whether or not Leon believes his own lies regarding Ranka's intentions, Alto clearly seems to think it's a credible idea. The comparison here seems to be a Trojan horse. Use Ranka to gain a foothold of trust in the human world, then use that foothold to destroy us. Perhaps by learning more about humanity's weaknesses. Perhaps by tempting humanity to join the Vajra mind link, with possibly fatal consequences for the species. Or, <insert your private theory here>.

Edited September 15, 2008 by DeeBot

[VF-25 Messiah]

One thing still don't make sense - Leon say the Vajia is planning to use Ranka as their weapon to destroy human. Now how the hell can that work? To human Ranka is just a girl that can sing. There is no human-brain network for her to hack, or a super birdhuman for her to drive.

I believe that's what Leon is telling Alto, hoping he'll dispose of her. She's not really a threat to humanity, but he wants her out of the picture because it'll ruin Grace's plans... we'll know soon.

[Smiley424]

Cool episode, just kinda moving along here. I'm such a hopeless romantic that I was saddened by the episode, how Sheryl is accepting her death as inevitable and Alto realizing that he may have to kill Ranka "for the greater good". I can't wait for the epicness of next episode.

[DeeBot]

On a different note, anyone else feel incredibly sad watching the last scene in the preview, where Sheryl appears to be performing, in slow motion, and just looks truly happier than we've seen her for a while? I can't shake the feeling that it's a death flag. But it's just a preview, so I'm doing my best to ignore it.

[yaiba]

However, there are other types of viruses that don't destroy the host cell, they only modify it. I think they're referred to as enveloped viruses, and what they do is turn the host cell into a virus production factory that produces new virus material that leaves the production cell by natural cell reproduction methods...

Actually budding viruses end up killing their host cells as well. Just not in such a spectacular fashion. The rest of what you said was very close to how I see the viral mechanism as working. Essentially Ranshe would have been infected, and transmitted the virus to Ranka and possibly Brera through the germline. Which is to say the virus was incorporated into the egg that would be Ranka. The integrated virus would probably be a defective virus that does not produce any of the self replicating factors, but does produce the factors that make them capable of producing fold waves. This would explain why there was no sign of infection in Ranka, since the virus would not be replicating, and her immune system would most likely not have been exposed to the virus itself (actually I'm kind of fuzzy about viruses crossing the placental barrier, but am too lazy to look it up - I think that in reality most likely they can, but being as these are big giant phage, who knows).

Edited September 15, 2008 by yaiba

[shinkirou]

On a different note, anyone else feel incredibly sad watching the last scene in the preview, where Sheryl appears to be performing, in slow motion, and just looks truly happier than we've seen her for a while? I can't shake the feeling that it's a death flag. But it's just a preview, so I'm doing my best to ignore it.

preparation for a happy ending for Sheryl... *hopes high!* XD

[VF-25 Messiah]

On a different note, anyone else feel incredibly sad watching the last scene in the preview, where Sheryl appears to be performing, in slow motion, and just looks truly happier than we've seen her for a while? I can't shake the feeling that it's a death flag. But it's just a preview, so I'm doing my best to ignore it.

I never really feared for Sheryl, and I still don't. Convinced she's gonna live and will continue to be so until I see her actually go down. Then I'll be surprised.

[dreamweaver13]

preparation for a happy ending for Sheryl... *hopes high!* XD

actually, the way i see it, it'll be 100% a happy ending for sheryl. well kinda.

either (a) she lives and alto stays with her (BEST!!), (b) she dies, but before then alto confesses or tells her something that she'll be so happy about, and she'll die happy. (come on, don't tell me she's gonna die AND alto chooses ranka over her. too cruel; ain't gonna happen ) OR c) alto doesn't end up with her, but she lives. life sucks, but hey she gets to live, when a few minutes ago she was surely dying.

see? either way she wins. but i do prefer option a, please!

Edited September 15, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

I never really feared for Sheryl, and I still don't. Convinced she's gonna live and will continue to be so until I see her actually go down. Then I'll be surprised.

same here. go sheryl!

[Hiriyu]

So, the question now is where the virus came from. I get the impression that if it is an evo-virus from the PC, it might not have been meant for humans.. and I wonder if the virus wasn't meant for the Vajra either.. what if it was an experiment by the PC that went wrong? A unified consciousness sounds an awful lot like the PC may have been trying to evolve themselves for once.

My thoughts in a nutshell.

If I were to speculate a little further along those lines, I might suggest that the virus was actually intended for use as portion of a control mechanism for something like, oh, I don't know... The Birdman? . It can't be any coincidence that Mao was not only present on the 117th Research Fleet, but had also received a healthy dose of Birdman blood, and all that potentially comes with it. I'd say that would explain the viral source pretty neatly, speculatively speaking.

The Vajra could have already contracted the virus at some point by their own devices, or more likely, could have had it introduced to them by Mao. A hive or swarm type species would make an ideal test-subject for experiment in unified consciousness, wouldn't you think?

/end speculation

Edited September 15, 2008 by Hiriyu

[DeeBot]

I was just looking at some screen caps of past episodes, and yet another thing struck me...

Candle burning in the wine glass, during dinner. Very romantic, right?

The screen cap I saw that jolted me was the one of the memorial... composed of a number of candles, some in glass holders. Is there a parallel there? Is this yet another death flag? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it, and it's just what it originally looked like?

[shinkirou]

I was just looking at some screen caps of past episodes, and yet another thing struck me...

Candle burning in the wine glass, during dinner. Very romantic, right?

The screen cap I saw that jolted me was the one of the memorial... composed of a number of candles, some in glass holders. Is there a parallel there? Is this yet another death flag? Or maybe I'm reading too much into it, and it's just what it originally looked like?

parallelism unintended as candles in memorials often go with glasses anyways

Sheryl will have her happy ending since many of the opening and ending songs point to her POV XD

episode 24 will end the triangle hehehe <--- i can see it clearly now...

btw, if you see again the northern cross ending sequence, there is a line art that is even animated when Sheryl and Alto were kissing. Sheryl's clothes in that line-art are different from the other kissing scenes... ^___^

sk wouldn't want his alto to be a jerk and breaker of promises won't he? hehehe

<--- unless this is alto's 'intended character development' right? XD

[DeeBot]

btw, if you see again the northern cross ending sequence, there is a line art that is even animated when Sheryl and Alto were kissing. Sheryl's clothes in that line-art are different from the other kissing scenes... ^___^

sk wouldn't want his alto to be a jerk and breaker of promises won't he? hehehe

<--- unless this is alto's 'intended character development' right? XD

But... but what about that eye-catch, where Klan and Michel seemed to live happily ever after? Wasn't that all a lie, too?

[dreamweaver13]

episode 24 will end the triangle hehehe <--- i can see it clearly now...

my bet is on ep 25. unresolved til the last second.

[shinkirou]

But... but what about that eye-catch, where Klan and Michel seemed to live happily ever after? Wasn't that all a lie, too?

what eye-catch? is it the magazine scan? XD

well, klan confessed in some sorts and michel answered it back with his life so it's a bittersweet love angle XD

[Gubaba]

Is it just me or does Brera have a few harmonicas?

Well, he IS a cyborg...maybe he excretes them.

Me, I'm still trying to figure out how he plays them through is helmet...

he has no helmet and has no spacesuit being a cyborg and all XD

Didn't we catch a glimpse of a flight suit and helmet way back when? Like his VF-27 got shook up and the hologram interior faded for just a moment?

You are correct Radd! He does wear a helmet. We've seen it multiple times. Which made me wonder about how the hell he was playing that harmonica...

There we have it, folks...an almost perfect circle.

[grss1982]

But... but what about that eye-catch, where Klan and Michel seemed to live happily ever after? Wasn't that all a lie, too?

what eye-catch? is it the magazine scan? XD

well, klan confessed in some sorts and michel answered it back with his life so it's a bittersweet love angle XD

Its this eyecatch:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2017.jpg

From Episode 20

BTW....I was just bored at work today and did some browsing over at http://randomc.animeblogger.net/ to come up with comparison of paper planes. ;p

Sheryl's in Episode 23:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2035.jpg

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2039.jpg

Ranka's in Episode 21:

http://randomc.animeblogger.net:8000/image...0Large%2026.jpg

http://randomc.animeblogger.net:8000/image...0Large%2027.jpg

[Keith]

My thoughts in a nutshell.

If I were to speculate a little further along those lines, I might suggest that the virus was actually intended for use as portion of a control mechanism for something like, oh, I don't know... The Birdman? . It can't be any coincidence that Mao was not only present on the 117th Research Fleet, but had also received a healthy dose of Birdman blood, and all that potentially comes with it. I'd say that would explain the viral source pretty neatly, speculatively speaking.

The Vajra could have already contracted the virus at some point by their own devices, or more likely, could have had it introduced to them by Mao. A hive or swarm type species would make an ideal test-subject for experiment in unified consciousness, wouldn't you think?

/end speculation

Yup, I thought the Virus may be part of a control mechanism too, but with Ranka adding herself to the Vajra collective, perhaps they'll be able to evolve the Virus to be safe for humans/cure Sheryl in the process. I just hope they have another series set up for next year, since no one is going to be satisfied with such a short cut off at episode 25.

[dreamweaver13]

BTW....I was just bored at work today and did some browsing over at http://randomc.animeblogger.net/ to come up with comparison of paper planes. ;p

Sheryl's in Episode 23:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2035.jpg

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2039.jpg

Ranka's in Episode 21:

http://randomc.animeblogger.net:8000/image...0Large%2026.jpg

http://randomc.animeblogger.net:8000/image...0Large%2027.jpg

hey, no fair comparing. alto helped ranka with her plane. sheryl had to do hers on her own, and the paper she used was one she had previously crumpled.

[mike_s_6]

Sheryl's in Episode 23:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2035.jpg

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2039.jpg

This should go in the Animation Bugs page. These two paper planes are different in design

[wolfx]

Shows how incompetent sheryl is with making paper planes cuz that design doesn't glide as well as Ranka's/Alto's. Figures.

[badboy00z]

I thought Sheryl was really cute when she was drunk. Especially the part where she reaches up for Alto to pick her up.

[MisaForever]

I don't understand why some of you say Sheryl's plane didn't fly. She threw it into the air, it decended a bit but didn't crash.

[Keith]

Do we have a Sheryl drunk/smiling gif anywhere?

[VF-25S Full Armour]

This should go in the Animation Bugs page. These two paper planes are different in design

Checked the pics myself. I do not see any bugs. Same plane, down to the blue highlighted text.

What gives?

Edited September 15, 2008 by VF-25S Full Armour

[grss1982]

Do we have a Sheryl drunk/smiling gif anywhere?

I think animesuki is your best bet for those kinds of pics.

More can be found here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php...702&page=27

Checked the pics myself. I do not see any bugs. Same plane, down to the blue highlighted text.

What gives?

There's actually a bit of a difference.

Blue higlight on the right side of the paper plane is visible on this one:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2035.jpg

While the blue highlight in the right side of the paper plane in this one disappears:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2039.jpg

[VF-25S Full Armour]

I think animesuki is your best bet for those kinds of pics.

More can be found here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php...702&page=27

There's actually a bit of a difference.

Blue higlight on the right side of the paper plane is visible on this one:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2035.jpg

While the blue highlight in the right side of the paper plane in this one disappears:

http://randomc.maximum7.net/image/Macross/...0Large%2039.jpg

Agreed, there is a slight but not too terribly significant difference. The blue on the right side of the plane on the 2nd pic could easily be blocked in the 1st by occlusion.

On the left side, there is a slight though not too noticeable difference in the blue highlights if one uses the text on it as a reference, and frankly isn't really worth fussing about.

If we want to be really meticulous, we could also note that even the text between the 2 of them has slight differences too.

But seriously, there's not much point squabbling over these insignificant imperfections in animation though.

BTW, Sheryl is so irresistibly cute in this episode. She almost made me forget my default objectives:

1. Terminate John Connor.

2. Terminate all humans.

Grace O Connor vs. Sheryl Nome. 2 contrasting yet equally irresistible choice. Thinking of which, I think I should upload myself into a mimetic polyalloy chassis just in case I choose Grace. Seems I'm a much of a sucker for love triangles as SK himself.

Edited September 15, 2008 by VF-25S Full Armour

[DeeBot]

I don't understand why some of you say Sheryl's plane didn't fly. She threw it into the air, it decended a bit but didn't crash.

Her plane described a path known as a stall: Increasingly high angle of attack, until flow separation occurs, and the plane loses all lift. This generally leads to a crash, unless the pilot is high enough to recover. Since Sheryl's airplane doesn't have a pilot, crashing is pretty much the conclusion you should be drawing from the fact that it stalled out. Of course, there's no need to actually animate that... the viewer should be able to draw his or her own conclusion.

I guess some people would actually need to see the airplane lawn-dart to accept that, though.

Sheryl's plane is incidentally the way I usually fold my paper airplanes. It's a much simpler technique than whatever Alto uses.

Edited September 15, 2008 by DeeBot

[Gin]

I don't understand why some of you say Sheryl's plane didn't fly. She threw it into the air, it decended a bit but didn't crash.

It dropped like a rock at the last second.