Macross Frontier Episode 23 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[VF-25 Messiah]

Whether or not the Vajra planted the eggs there during the early battles, it still comes down to Grace and Galaxy bringing the Vajra to Frontier in the first place. What I got from one of the more recent episodes is that Grace did not expect the attack which came from those eggs hatching. So I'd guess it was the Vajra themselves, from possibly the battle in episode 1 (rather, the remaining Vajra which were then fought in episode 2 or 3).

As for why, I'd say the most reasonable answer is that the Vajra, who were under attack and being invaded decided to plant a booby trap in case these invading aliens continued to try and wipe them out.

I believe she said that, while the possibility was there, it was outside of what she expected. This is what she tells Leon. She also tells him things like that Galaxy has been destroyed and that she hasn't forgotten how he kindly took them in after. I beleive that nest was deliberately planted on Frontier, inside the heavily guarded and restricted research facility on Island 3, which only Grace, Leon and his goons had access to. Neither Grace nor Leon seemed particularly surprised to suddenly seeing thousands of Vajra inside of Frontier. Leon instead calmly asks if "this" (the attack) is Grace's doing.

Edited September 14, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[Radd]

Ah, you're right.

[vanpang]

Whether or not the Vajra planted the eggs there during the early battles, it still comes down to Grace and Galaxy bringing the Vajra to Frontier in the first place. What I got from one of the more recent episodes is that Grace did not expect the attack which came from those eggs hatching. So I'd guess it was the Vajra themselves, from possibly the battle in episode 1 (rather, the remaining Vajra which were then fought in episode 2 or 3).

As for why, I'd say the most reasonable answer is that the Vajra, who were under attack and being invaded decided to plant a booby trap in case these invading aliens continued to try and wipe them out.

You need a Queen Vajra to lay those eggs, as the Queen are usually confine to their hive and never go into battle, I think it is likely that Grace (or even Leon) planting those eggs.

[grss1982]

You need a Queen Vajra to lay those eggs, as the Queen are usually confine to their hive and never go into battle, I think it is likely that Grace (or even Leon) planting those eggs.

Hey you just made me remember that in Episode 10, Grace did order Brera to take down a Vajra nest so as to leave no evidence. This was the WTF moment when Brera used the quantum cannon to take out the nest which was the size of a Uraga carrier or something.

So. I'm thnking Grace could have gotten those eggs from the ship in Episode 10.

[VF-25 Messiah]

Hey you just made me remember that in Episode 10, Grace did order Brera to take down a Vajra nest so as to leave no evidence. This was the WTF moment when Brera used the quantum cannon to take out the nest which was the size of a Uraga carrier or something.

So. I'm thnking Grace could have gotten those eggs from the ship in Episode 10.

Twas episode 9.

[Bri]

It's midnight and Cinderella's magic spell has worn off indeed. This has been an episode about deception and appearances. Much has happened. To much for me to make sense of now so just some random thoughts:

Alto is an actor by nature. And his brother makes him question his motives. Or is he? I get the feeling that Altos brother hints him not to do as he is told and not to believe Leon’s and the SMS chief’s story that he has to fight and kill to save everyone.

Leon explains the nature of the Varija. Ranka explains the same thing to Brera. Breras conclusion: human and Varija can not co-exist? Ranka says they can, but gets caught of before she can explain the viewers why the Varija are not the enemy. If Ranka knows about the true nature of the Varijas hive mind why does she trust Aikun? Grace seems to be the master manipulator of events. Is she going Sharon Apple on the Varija?

Hmm, Ranka, Brera and their mother interact peacefully on a planet with the Varija in the past before the SDF-4 goes up in fire. Doesn’t look like the evil bugs they are made out to be. I'm convinced now that the Varija infection is not lethal. I'm guessing that the medicine is a poison to kill of anyone reaching the final stage of the infection that allows contact with the Varija. Wonder if Luca knows, I think Sheryl has suspicions. Luca as the evil doctor, now there is a funny twist.

Ranka’s paper plane gets flies and gets caught by Aikun/Varija. Sheryl’s plane rises and falls. Is this a death marker or a feint? I’m not placing too much importance on the roof scene; Sheryl drops in late on the conversation and only hears part of it. Alto fought to protect Ranka and Klan is touched by that. Sheryl takes it the wrong way. More important imo: Massive build up of sympathy for Sheryl in the early scenes, the poor orphan staring at a family dinner from the cold. Alto says yes to the request of the semi drunk/sleeping Sheryl to stay with her forever. To stay with the fairy tale comparison: is Sheryl Cinderella or the Little Match Girl (brothers Grimm)?

[Kronnang Dunn]

So ten millions civilians have to die because of that? Frontier still has a legitimate reason for fighting, and they likely can't run at this point due to damage. And the Vajra FOLLOWED the Macross fleet and stuck a nest of killer drones inside Island-1 while the fleet was RUNNING AWAY. Real benevolent these bugs are.

The Vajra aren't a threat to Earth now. You're seriously going to trust the good will of a insect swarm that is immune to super nukes? Good luck with that.

This isn't settlers and indians, this is space bugs that rip people apart and have repeatedly pressed the attack on a fleet that has been essentially abandoned to a Darwinian experiment. Xenocide is ugly, but if you think a military force is going to let 10 million civilians die as a matter of "principal" (invading territory = bad) I doubt they'd agree.

My only point is that even provoked, it's silly to make excuses for a race of drones especially given that the bugs have prosecuted aggression against Frontier at EVERY turn never backing down from attacking even when the Frontier was trying to escape. The nest planted on Island-1 especially wasn't summoned there by Grace, the Vajra did that of their own 'will'.

"Is that you, Leon Mishima?"

Hehehe... Just kidding. Seriously man... Take a grip. If you have watched all the episodes so far... You must have realised by now (as most of us do) that the whole Vajra-Frontier War was part of Grace's plan.

Frontier indeed has to defend itself from the Vajra if it wants to survive now... But the whole messy situtation was Grace's and Leon's fault... not the Vajra (who have been used just like Frontier).

And remember that the whole "The Vajra want to anihilate us" was said by Leon. Would you really trust that murderous usurper? I wouldn't...

Given the fact that the Vajra can fold immediately to anywhere in the Galaxy... How come they haven't attacked Earth? Or Eden? Simple... They are attacking those who venture in the center of the galaxy (their turf... just like I mentioned earlier...).

And Episode 23 clearly showed that while each Vajra drone is mindless... The whole Vajra race has a collective consciousness/brain/intelligence.

In the end... that's the only thing that may stop the War (With Ranka's help of course)...

Like I posted waaaay back... Mishima killed the president because he would have never allowed direct conflict witht he Vajra. The Frontier fleet isn't a War Fleet. Is a Colonization Fleet...

Edited September 14, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[VF-25S Full Armour]

...

So. I'm thnking Grace could have gotten those eggs from the ship in Episode 10.

Grace forgot? The most perfect human minded android in the Macross Universe, actually FORGETS something as important as a nest full of Vajra eggs? Blasphemy!

More likely than not, the all out attack since episode 21 was actually planned, though it happened just a bit earlier than Grace and Co anticipated.

Things are going according to plan now as long as Grace is concerned right now. Grace was practically orgasmic when she observed Ranka linking into the Vajra fold network.

Edited September 14, 2008 by VF-25S Full Armour

[Kronnang Dunn]

Grace forgot? The most perfect human minded android in the Macross Universe, actually FORGETS something as important as a nest full of Vajra eggs? Blasphemy!

Err... Actually Shoji Kawamori himself revealed to NT that your "most perfect human minded android in the Macross Universe" is

CRAZY

...

Things are going according to plan now as long as Grace is concerned right now. Grace was practically orgasmic when she observed Ranka linking into the Vajra fold network.

In fact... Kawamori also described her conduct as that of a

Mad Scientist

... Her reactions to each new discovery confirm that...

Edited September 14, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[Dervish]

The beginning of this episode was interesting, with Ranshe and Grace fighting and the quote "they tell us not to fight". Were Ranshe and Grace in a Boston Marriage, or something more?

Edited September 14, 2008 by Dervish

[s-girl]

Bri - tha'ts a great fairy tale analogy, and a rather ominous comparison. If Sheryl is really the Little Match Girl... kind of bodes ill for her chances of living.

[Major Focker]

if you hop over to the news thread, you will find there are other things far more ominous

[sucker4meltrans]

in the flash back where grace was talking to ranshe. it looks like grace might have been wearing something frilly, lacey thing under her lab coat.

[Gin]

I still wonder if the kiss on ep 10 count as possible infection

I don't think it would count, I figure the V-type infection is sort of like AIDs, just a bit of saliva won't transmit it to you.

[Macross_Fanboy]

This episode was great, I really liked what Alto said as he came to realize that if Rank is the one who is going to doom Frontier, then he will kill her in order to save everybody and I'm glad he ended up with Sheryl. At least Sheryl won't die, not yet at least because she was fine before she started taking those pills way back before she went to Galia 4. What I want to know is if Ranka's mother was assimilated or transformed in the queen because back in episode 14 when she was in the mothership, that tentacle/probe attached to the little pod and she had a flash of her mother singing and later she witnessed the entire battle from their collective thoughts. When she feels pain when a lot of Vajra are being offed might confirm it besides being the Little Queen who was infected during conception. I can't wait to see the next episode and I really want to know who buys the farm.

[badboy00z]

Loved the part where the Vajra Planetary Defense folded out all at once.

[Gin]

Is it just me or does Brera have a few harmonicas?

[Gubaba]

Is it just me or does Brera have a few harmonicas?

Well, he IS a cyborg...maybe he excretes them.

Me, I'm still trying to figure out how he plays them through is helmet...

[Master Dex]

After much waiting until I could get a good copy of the episode and subs I finally saw this. A good episode, basically a calm before the storm kind of story. Ranka and Brera finally know they are related. Brera seems to be under Grace's clutches now though. There will be a noble sacrifice I bet. I find it interesting that Grace's cockpit VR looks like her normal VR, and she is a Colonal. The next two episodes will be non stop.

[dreamweaver13]

Yay, subs!

A lot of things make more sense... but to my surprise, a lot of things make less sense, too.

First off, the overarching plot: I agree with the theory that Grace's faction used Ranka to penetrate the Vajra fold network. It definitely seems like Grace is merging with the Vajra consciousness, whether by choice or not. This also might point out the interpretation of that mysterious comment concerning something the Protoculture hadn't achieved: Transcendence of physical form. Assuming the Protoculture is really gone, of course...

It seems like fold quartz isn't something only the Vajra can produce, but since the Vajra are like bees, it's easier to go collect it from them rather than doing it ourselves. Man-made fold quartz will probably be possible, following the series.

Interesting about the description of the Vajra fold network as resulting from a kind of intestinal bacteria. This might have just been a metaphor: Comparing the V-type virus to symbiotic intestinal bacteria, rather than really meaning to classify them as bacteria. But maybe they just didn't do the research. (Or just really liked the line about the Vajra thinking with their gut.)

Incidentally, I have to concede that this episode seems to make it more likely that Sheryl will probably live. Darn. I'm predicting a song battle, with Sheryl on the Frontier trying to defeat Ranka (at least at first). I think she'll have grown stronger, but she can't beat Ranka. At that point, she'll probably become linked with Ranka, and they'll have enough strength together to overcome all the fighting factions. At which point, perhaps the viruses invading Sheryl's brain will retreat of their own accord; this episode seems to imply that there's some level of purposeful control (Ranka's still alive, after all), that they don't just blindly invade everything, but head for the brain to kill it.

Alternately, Sheryl may push herself too far in episode 24 (the bit about not taking her medicine so she can be stronger might foreshadow that she overdoes it), and won't be able to participate in the final battle after all. In which case, I figure she probably will die. Someone else will need to take her place... that would be kinda a lame ending, though.

The Vajra are possibly some sort of immune system for the fold consciousness, a mechanism to protect it from people like Grace who seek to exploit it.

Grace says something about the Vajra noticing them; I wonder if she was just referring to the CF-27s, and she somehow sabotaged the meeting between Ranka and the Vajra by her very own hostile presence? Combined with the idea that the Frontier fleet were drawn into the conflict by Grace & company, it seems like they have some sort of irritant that provokes a hostile reaction from the Vajra. (Perhaps their own fold net?)

I'll close out with some shipping speculation. With the subs, the episode seem to hint pretty strongly that whatever romantic relationship Sheryl and Alto have right now isn't real. It might just be a smokescreen (the timing of when Sheryl drops in on the conversation with Klan might hint at that), but taken at face value, it seems to imply that Alto is acting out the role of being with Sheryl because it's what's needed from him, and that Sheryl knows this, yet can't help herself from taking advantage of him, because she really does need him right now. In which case, it seems like Sheryl's love is ultimately the unrequited kind after all...

Thinking back on the series as a whole, Alto always seems to maintain more of an emotional distance with Sheryl, too. With Ranka, he seems more comfortable with himself, but with Sheryl, he's always resisting her advances (out of a sense of self-preservation at times, if nothing else). In this episode in particular, I never really got the vibe that he was in love with Sheryl, but that he was doing his duty, going through the motions. It seemed kinda joyless and one-sided; more dinner with a good friend going through a bought of sickness, than with a lover. That bodes ill for an Alto x Sheryl outcome.

The writers seem to be going to some effort to try and explain some of the characters' inconsistencies, too. Alto apparently comments that Sheryl acting like a spoiled child isn't really in character for her (at least, not at this point in the story), especially considering that she isn't actually drunk. (That was a surprise for me! I can see why Alto wouldn't want to get Sheryl drunk, though. It's not gentlemanly, and he has a hard enough time fending her off as it is.)

Could it be a side effect of the medicine she's taking? He looks at the medicine bottle right after, but I have a hard time interpreting what he means here. The scene with Luca is also a bit ambiguous for me; I'm not sure if she hasn't been taking it ever since Grace cut her off, or if she's been taking it on a trial basis again, then stops when she realizes it's diminishing her usefulness as a fold wave modulator.

Maybe it's not the medicine, but rather she's just trying too hard to preserve the illusion of a real relationship, because she acts quite seriously when Alto's not around. We flashed back to her childhood, and it seems the sort of relationship she has with Alto, illusionary though it might be, is a childhood fantasy of hers. As a consequence, she regresses to a child-like stage when she's trying to fulfill that fantasy.

The idea that Alto acts as the situation requires would also explain some of his impenetrability as a character. He's not just a fictional character, he's a fictional character playing fictional characters. We never see the real Alto because he's constantly hiding it behind the various Altos that duty demands of him. For all his impulsiveness, maybe Alto never really does what he truly wants. That might be why people keep asking him what his reasons are, because his reasons aren't true to himself.

very good and thought out points, and the speculations are sound enough to be true. if it all pans out as you predicted, it would tie in with the rest, if i recall the events correctly (and without watching the entire series in its entirety yet).

hope springs eternal, and i still hope for sheryl's love to be requited. i feel she deserves it.

[dreamweaver13]

It's midnight and Cinderella's magic spell has worn off indeed. This has been an episode about deception and appearances. Much has happened. To much for me to make sense of now so just some random thoughts:

Alto is an actor by nature. And his brother makes him question his motives. Or is he?

hmmm... i'm actually surprised that alto's brother is still in the story, and still trying to convince alto that h's been acting all this time. MAN, he's persistent. but i'm beginning to see his point. while alto seems sensitive to, and aware of, everything that's going on around him, he always has that certain level of aloofness or distance about him. he just doesn't know how to give himself over completely. just about the time i saw this distance break down was when he cried outside sheryl's room, saying" enough". but the moment he stepped into the room and started holding sheryl, you could actually argue that he's back in character playing the "strong" card, acting in whatever way that would give sheryl strength.

so for the last 2 episodes, i would certainly like to see alto finally breaking down and admitting what he really wants (and let it be sheryl please!!), and without all that bravado that he covers himself in. just pure, hikaru-type honesty would be nice.

although i wonder just how much of a wuss the real alto is. hehe. he might break down and cry in front of sheryl while confessing his love, and sheryl would be thinking, "ummm, ok, this crybaby is the guy i fell in love with? erm... i think i better call ranka, maybe he still wants his man back."

[Kronnang Dunn]

in the flash back where grace was talking to ranshe. it looks like grace might have been wearing something frilly, lacey thing under her lab coat.

That's her same outfit at the photo from the science magazine article in Episode 18. I already mentioned back in the discussion thread for that Episode that Sheryl's style was obviously given to her by Grace...

[dreamweaver13]

That's her same outfit at the photo from the science magazine article in Episode 18. I already mentioned back in the discussion thread for that Episode that Sheryl's style was obviously given to her by Grace...

Grace: I... am your mother!

Sheryl: No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!!

Grace: Search your feelings. Look at our fashion sense. Look at your "hopes and dreams", and my "despair and nightmares". you *know* it to be true!

Sheryl: NO! NOOO!!!

Edited September 15, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[shinkirou]

Well, he IS a cyborg...maybe he excretes them.

Me, I'm still trying to figure out how he plays them through is helmet...

he has no helmet and has no spacesuit being a cyborg and all XD

[Major Focker]

Grace: I... am your mother!

Sheryl: No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!!

Grace: Search your feelings. Look at our fashion sense. Look at your "hopes and dreams", and my "despair and nightmares". you *know* it to be true!

Sheryl: NO! NOOO!!!

lol!

dig your new avatar by the way. i just find it irresistible when they do that

[Radd]

he has no helmet and has no spacesuit being a cyborg and all XD

Didn't we catch a glimpse of a flight suit and helmet way back when? Like his VF-27 got shook up and the hologram interior faded for just a moment?

[Sumdumgai]

Didn't we catch a glimpse of a flight suit and helmet way back when? Like his VF-27 got shook up and the hologram interior faded for just a moment?

You are correct Radd! He does wear a helmet. We've seen it multiple times. Which made me wonder about how the hell he was playing that harmonica...

[Gin]

He might have taken off his helmet to play the harmonica. Or he's magical.

[shinkirou]

i think it's just the cockpit system XD

well, im at the office now so I can't confirm this XD

and @ reference to Gin's post,

yeah it's not that he can't remove his helmet while flying a valk right? XD

Edited September 15, 2008 by shinkirou

[Gin]

i think it's just the cockpit system XD

well, im at the office now so I can't confirm this XD

and @ reference to Gin's post,

yeah it's not that he can't remove his helmet while flying a valk right? XD

There is also the possibility of the glass on the helmet lifting as well.

[Hiriyu]

You are correct Radd! He does wear a helmet. We've seen it multiple times. Which made me wonder about how the hell he was playing that harmonica...

It's a meta-harmonica. Don't ask

Regarding the v-type bacteria/virus: Remember the discussion of the 'Viral Evolution Theory' in Mac Zero? This concept wasn't really fleshed out in that series. It could be that the Vajra were [and are] an unintended host for a previously developed Protoculture tech, or a part thereof. Exposure could have been by chance, or due to human intervention. Dr. Mao, anyone?

[David Hingtgen]

Alto's helmet clearly has a "rapidly retracting" visor, so I presume Brera's does as well.

[RedWolf]

It's a meta-harmonica. Don't ask

Regarding the v-type bacteria/virus: Remember the discussion of the 'Viral Evolution Theory' in Mac Zero? This concept wasn't really fleshed out in that series. It could be that the Vajra were [and are] an unintended host for a previously developed Protoculture tech, or a part thereof. Exposure could have been by chance, or due to human intervention. Dr. Mao, anyone?

Likely they replaced their communication network with a fold quartz based one after the old one was destroyed.

But dare not do what Grace and Galaxy Anonymous is out to do. Create a network consciousness.

[s-girl]

Lunar sub is now out. This is pretty fast for them :-)

Now to wait for it and see how certain explanations were translated.

[shinkirou]

woah! it's fast! XD