dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Well, I think that AltoxRanka would be a happy ending (as long as a miraculously cured Sheryl accepts it, and goes of to have a series of flings with her many groupies). You're just saying that coz that would leave Nanase entirely and unreservedly devoted to you.
magnuskn Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 (edited) Because the main website is calling it a "Super Galactic Love Story" and with how things are progressing, I can't help but say that it would lead to a RankaxAlto ending, considering they are going to give us a happy ending. And most importantly, I'm free to state what I see. Why do you assume we don´t want you to talk about what you see. We only want you to justify your opinions, we certainly do ours. Why not? We all have our preferences, and I don't really mind which of the girls gets chosen, but isn't it too early to say the absolutes none, nada and zilch? I would say by this time it would be an absolute out-of-nowhere development to give us Alto X Ranka. There has been zero romantic tension between the two of them ( note: the two of them, not one-sided Ranka stuff ), but we had that amazing Sheryl X Alto scene last episode... At this time, Alto X Ranka would be utterly unbelievable. Their romantic development has been phenomenally one-sided, and it was not from Altos side. Sheryl X Alto, however, has been solidly developed over the entire season. I would have wished it to be a more lighthearted relationship, like in the earlier episodes, but as Sheryls storyline has developed, it could scarcely come to anything else than what we have at the moment. Which is not to say that I don´t endorse their relationship wholesale, but I´d wish the both of them would get a break from all the misery afflicting them at the moment. Edited September 10, 2008 by magnuskn
Gubaba Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 You're just saying that coz that would leave Nanase entirely and unreservedly devoted to you. Well, DUH. I'm not stupid, you know.
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 But I think that saying that either one is THE one-and-true ending...well, that's a bit premature at this point. We've still got 75 minutes to go, folks. A lot can happen in that time. THE one-and-true ending will be known by everyone in a little over 15 days time from now People will most likely still be bickering about it a looong time after that
Gubaba Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I would say by this time it would be an absolute out-of-nowhere development to give us Alto X Ranka. There has been zero romantic tension between the two of them ( note: the two of them, not one-sided Ranka stuff ), but we had that amazing Sheryl X Alto scene last episode... At this time, Alto X Ranka would be utterly unbelievable. Their romantic development has been phenomenally one-sided, and it was not from Altos side. Sheryl X Alto, however, has been solidly developed over the entire season. I would have wished it to be a more lighthearted relationship, like in the earlier episodes, but as Sheryls storyline has developed, it could scarcely come to anything else than what we have at the moment. Which is not to say that I don´t endorse their relationship wholesale, but I´d wish the both of them would get a break from all the misery afflicting them at the moment. See, it's that "solidly developed over the entire season" that bothers me...Froniter has taken great pains to try to be anything but predictable, and a long, relatively unbroken thread (leading to the outcome that anyone with half a brain would expect) isn't exactly the sort of thing they've been doing in this show. Well, okay. There was Ai-kun. But other than that... But then, I got burned being on the wrong side of the WTF-1 debate, so I'm hesitant to predict ANYTHING in this show.
lososaurus Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but: Klan = Claudia? Roy died on Claudia and Claudia tried to get Hikaru and Misa closer; Michel died on Klan and she's trying to get Alto and Sheryl closer. Just a thought.
Gubaba Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 THE one-and-true ending will be known by everyone in a little over 15 days time from now People will most likely still be bickering about it a looong time after that And it looks like no matter HOW it ends, there will be some people here and on other forums complaining loudly that the ending was completely out of left field, showed no understanding of the characters involved, and was just plain WRONG WRONG WRONG. And to be honest, I don't really want to read those posts.
dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 See, it's that "solidly developed over the entire season" that bothers me...Froniter has taken great pains to try to be anything but predictable, and a long, relatively unbroken thread (leading to the outcome that anyone with half a brain would expect) isn't exactly the sort of thing they've been doing in this show. Well, okay. There was Ai-kun. But other than that... But then, I got burned being on the wrong side of the WTF-1 debate, so I'm hesitant to predict ANYTHING in this show. well, you did predict that the one-true-ending will come in 75 minutes... but with how crazy and unpredictable this series has been, you could even get burned with that. it also bothers me. everything has been built up for sheryl, and a solid event happened in ep22 to almost remove any doubt... but there's still 3 episodes to go, and the declaration that the triangle resolution will surprise a lot of people... oh man...
magnuskn Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 See, it's that "solidly developed over the entire season" that bothers me...Froniter has taken great pains to try to be anything but predictable, and a long, relatively unbroken thread (leading to the outcome that anyone with half a brain would expect) isn't exactly the sort of thing they've been doing in this show. Well, okay. There was Ai-kun. But other than that... But then, I got burned being on the wrong side of the WTF-1 debate, so I'm hesitant to predict ANYTHING in this show. I think we should see it in the context of two things. a.) Is Kawamori someone who frequently does "Gotcha!" endings? b.) How solidly and logically were the *other* plots of Macross Frontier developed? If the other plot was done solidly, logically building up on itself, why then should the romance be resolved illogically, á la Canvas 2? As I have seen it, Kawamori is a solid storyteller. So I fear little that he´ll give us what I consider as the illogical ending. He may still do the tragic one, however, but I hope he isn´t as cruel.
dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 (edited) I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but: Klan = Claudia? Roy died on Claudia and Claudia tried to get Hikaru and Misa closer; Michel died on Klan and she's trying to get Alto and Sheryl closer. Just a thought. yup! i'm guessing someone also pointed that out before (if no one did, kudos to you! ). in fact, is it just a coincidene that Klan tries to wake up alto's feelings for sheryl while they're looking out a space window, much like the scene where claudia tries to give hikaru some "hints" about misa? EDIT: My 1000th post! yey! Global, let me hold that pipe for you! Edited September 10, 2008 by dreamweaver13
lososaurus Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 yup! i'm guessing someone also pointed that out before (if no one did, kudos to you! ). in fact, is it just a coincidene that Klan tries to wake up alto's feelings for sheryl while they're looking out a space window, much like the scene where claudia tries to give hikaru some "hints" about misa? EDIT: My 1000th post! yey! Global, let me hold that pipe for you! I haven't seen Claudia mentioned in this thread, but I wonder if someone *did* mention it elsewhere...interesting stuff. I can stretch the parallels quite a bit here: Misa was already established into her position, much like Sheryl is and Minmay was the discovered, up and coming star, much like Ranka...
dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I think we should see it in the context of two things. a.) Is Kawamori someone who frequently does "Gotcha!" endings? b.) How solidly and logically were the *other* plots of Macross Frontier developed? If the other plot was done solidly, logically building up on itself, why then should the romance be resolved illogically, á la Canvas 2? As I have seen it, Kawamori is a solid storyteller. So I fear little that he´ll give us what I consider as the illogical ending. He may still do the tragic one, however, but I hope he isn´t as cruel. yup, i'm more afraid about the tragic one. doesn't have to be a "gotcha" moment, it's logical and all the elements have been set up.
magnuskn Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 yup, i'm more afraid about the tragic one. doesn't have to be a "gotcha" moment, it's logical and all the elements have been set up. Then again the death flags they have been waving have been a bit *too* strongly. It´s really all "Sheryl is gonna die ZOMG, DESPAIR!" and, well, while having her die while heroically singing on a burning Battle Frontier would speak well of her character, it would be too overwrought for a series that even now still tries to be lighthearted as much as it can.
dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Then again the death flags they have been waving have been a bit *too* strongly. It´s really all "Sheryl is gonna die ZOMG, DESPAIR!" and, well, while having her die while heroically singing on a burning Battle Frontier would speak well of her character, it would be too overwrought for a series that even now still tries to be lighthearted as much as it can. with sheryl, i think her situation has gone far beyond the realm of "death flags" and into the realm of "inevitable death" (since her dying has been confirmed). so her impending death is not so much a guessing game anymore, but more of a plot device. thus, it's up to us now to notice some "hope flags", if there are any. one possible "hope flag" is, of course, ranka's blood as a possible cure.
magnuskn Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 with sheryl, i think her situation has gone far beyond the realm of "death flags" and into the realm of "inevitable death" (since her dying has been confirmed). so her impending death is not so much a guessing game anymore, but more of a plot device. thus, it's up to us now to notice some "hope flags", if there are any. one possible "hope flag" is, of course, ranka's blood as a possible cure. Yeah, pretty much. A normal medical cure has already been ruled out, so we need some Magic Hax by this time. But as you said, Ranka is the definite connection. We know that the bugs she has in her stomach are similar ( in looks at least ) to the bugs Sheryl has in her blood. So a connection has been established, and I see it as the definite way to Sheryls cure. It´ll probably also serve as the final instance of Ranka letting go of Alto, so I see it in a favourable light in all ways for the narrative.
adrianop Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 And it looks like no matter HOW it ends, there will be some people here and on other forums complaining loudly that the ending was completely out of left field, showed no understanding of the characters involved, and was just plain WRONG WRONG WRONG. And to be honest, I don't really want to read those posts. I probably wont be opening any threads here related to frontier discussions 2 weeks from now until it settles down. lol
mike_s_6 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 And it looks like no matter HOW it ends, there will be some people here and on other forums complaining loudly that the ending was completely out of left field, showed no understanding of the characters involved, and was just plain WRONG WRONG WRONG. And to be honest, I don't really want to read those posts. I'm with you here. At the end of the animation, I'll be avoiding the Macross forums for a while apart from news threads since I can really imagine a crossfire... which includes me on one end instead of being in the middle... and I think I've had enough :\
Westlo Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Does the Japanese in 2ch have a similar poll ? I am curious on their take on it. Sheryl is more popular than Ranka on 2ch (latest poll had her at 800 votes to 500.....) yet 90% of 2ch seems to think it will be a Ranka ending. I think this is what Alto's VA "surprise" comment is directed at since he's talking to Japanese fandom. Of course it's more a surprise like "wow I never thought they would let Sheryl win over the moeblob main character" than a surprise like "lets give this relationship fart all development in the 2nd half of the series and have Alto go to her in the last minute" which is what a Ranka ending is shaping up to be. The last big triangle 2ch had a consensus in True Tears they also got wrong ... after True Tears episode 12 90% thought the loser would win, I like to consider True Tears episode 11 to be similar to Macross Frontier 22 in that while it doesn't seal the deal, it all BUT does. Story supports a Sheryl ending, as do the comments by Megumi and Aya Endo in what their characters are feeling in the last episode.
Bri Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 (edited) I constantly have to correct myself from matching the Frontier characters to the SDFM crew. Kawamori tempts you to do that all the time and then has a little mindfart with your expectations, by letting things happen a little different then expected. For example in Frontier the "Max" type dies instead of the "Roy", the "Minmay" type loses the Miss Macross contest etc. Kawamori hasn't let the characters do anything unlikely but he plays with our perspective. If you look at the triangle then I can't get the Alto-Sheryl -Ranka triangle to work in my mind like the Hikaru-Misa-Minmay one. Alto has been positioned as the Hikaru of the series, but what if he is not? Imo he is most Minmay of the triangle. What if Ranka is the real Hikaru? She has confidance issues like Hikaru. She confesses her love to Alto who saw her as a sister for a while. Ranka is also growing up fast by being witness to the acts of war. Both essential elements of the SDFM Hikaru. Alto is not really changing, he is distracted by his inability to get control of the situation and his relationship with Sheryl (who would then be the "Linn Kaifun" type, a disturbing comparison to say the least.) and goes through an emotional meat grinder. Basically Alto's job is to shut up and fly like Minmay was to sing. But then who is the Misa? Cathy looks like her but has not got the Misa role. Imo it would be Brera, but he never gets enough screen time to develop in to a Misa like character, although Misa and Brera seem to share similar character traits. Sheryl has now taken parts of Misa on but she is not the same. I think there was a mention that Sheryls role was expanded from the role she was originally meant to have. Suppose Ranka was the real lead character and Brera and Alto were to be her love interests then she would grow over the self obsessed Alto and go for the tragic other character if we follow the SDFM story line. But now Sheryl has become the second love interest which complicates things. Ranka being the Hikaru chosing Sheryl (now the Misa)? I don't see that happen(would be a total surpise though ). If Alto remains loyal to the Minmay character he will lose both, like Minmay lost both Hikaru and Linn Kaifun. The real problem with the comparison is Sheryl. She is the wild card as she has changed completly from her SDFM counterpart. In that sense all bets are off and the triangle can go either way. Edited September 10, 2008 by Bri
s-girl Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I'm still amused by that Newtype illustration where Sheryl = Basara. As it really just messes with everything that fans may have been trying to speculate so far.
Gubaba Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I think we should see it in the context of two things. a.) Is Kawamori someone who frequently does "Gotcha!" endings? b.) How solidly and logically were the *other* plots of Macross Frontier developed? If the other plot was done solidly, logically building up on itself, why then should the romance be resolved illogically, á la Canvas 2? As I have seen it, Kawamori is a solid storyteller. So I fear little that he´ll give us what I consider as the illogical ending. He may still do the tragic one, however, but I hope he isn´t as cruel. a.) Does Macross Zero count...? Escaflowne also had a number of twists by the end. b.) The plot construction has been solid, but there have been a number of fake-outs ("ZOMG!! It's Kamjin! ZOMMFG!!! It's the SDF-1!!!"), and I believe a relationship path for Ranka and Alto HAS been established, just not touched on in a while. But it seems odd to mention Kawamori's lack of twist endings as proof that MacF won't go that route, and then suggest that the final episode might be tragic, even though he has no history of tragic endings (I think...I haven't seen Arjuna or Aquarion). I say that all bets are off with his show. All along, he has drawn us in with familiar-seeming characters and situtations, only to give them aggressively different outcomes, and I don't see that pattern changing.
VF-25 Messiah Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I say that all bets are off with his show. All along, he has drawn us in with familiar-seeming characters and situtations, only to give them aggressively different outcomes, and I don't see that pattern changing. Agreed, all bets are off. I currently cannot see how things will end (or rather I can see too many different possible outcomes) of how the plot ends, how the triangle will be resolved and who lives or doesn't. I'm certain that tomorrow will bring a slew of new possible outcomes as I re-evaluate everything again.
magnuskn Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 a.) Does Macross Zero count...? Escaflowne also had a number of twists by the end. Well, it was Sarah in the end, Mao was never really in the running, IMO. And for Escaflowne, it was pretty also clear to me that it would be Van. b.) The plot construction has been solid, but there have been a number of fake-outs ("ZOMG!! It's Kamjin! ZOMMFG!!! It's the SDF-1!!!"), and I believe a relationship path for Ranka and Alto HAS been established, just not touched on in a while. We´ll have to agree to disagree on the Alto X Ranka path, I think that the ZOMG moments you mentioned didn´t break the logic of the plot. They were just dramatic visuals, which played with the imagination of the audience, but flowed all logically along in the storyline. But it seems odd to mention Kawamori's lack of twist endings as proof that MacF won't go that route, and then suggest that the final episode might be tragic, even though he has no history of tragic endings (I think...I haven't seen Arjuna or Aquarion). Yeah, well.. Escaflownes ending left me pissed for days, because I wanted Hitomi to *stay* with Van, instead of returning to Earth. So I know that Kawamori does do bittersweet endings and doesn´t always please the audience. Macross Zeros ending also isn´t exactly a happy one. As for Escaflownes ending, it is of course always possible for Hitomi to return to Vans planet, so it wasn´t all that bad. I just wanted those two to stay together. <sniff> But in the end, it´s not so bad an ending. I say that all bets are off with his show. All along, he has drawn us in with familiar-seeming characters and situtations, only to give them aggressively different outcomes, and I don't see that pattern changing. While things have gotten quite dramatic due to the imminent end, the show doesn´t hesitate to show its more lighthearted side when it can. The general feeling of the show doesn´t point to a negative end. Macross Zero was far less lighthearted, so that bittersweet ending didn´t feel out of place.
Westlo Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 (edited) a.) Does Macross Zero count...? Escaflowne also had a number of twists by the end. b.) The plot construction has been solid, but there have been a number of fake-outs ("ZOMG!! It's Kamjin! ZOMMFG!!! It's the SDF-1!!!"), and I believe a relationship path for Ranka and Alto HAS been established, just not touched on in a while. But it seems odd to mention Kawamori's lack of twist endings as proof that MacF won't go that route, and then suggest that the final episode might be tragic, even though he has no history of tragic endings (I think...I haven't seen Arjuna or Aquarion). I say that all bets are off with his show. All along, he has drawn us in with familiar-seeming characters and situtations, only to give them aggressively different outcomes, and I don't see that pattern changing. Throwing down the drain relationship parallels and relationship development is slightly different than fooling the audience with the appearance of something. Really it just depends on what Kawamori wants to be remembered for with Frontier, for doing his first good.great series in a long time or for a lol shock ending of a triangle. If you're looking for a relationship twist think of something that has been obviously implied and nearly believed by everyone, Brera being Ranka's brother, just because she said oni-chan doesn't mean they are related since it's used for older male childhood friends as well by young girls. Edited September 10, 2008 by Westlo
Gubaba Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Well, it was Sarah in the end, Mao was never really in the running, IMO. And for Escaflowne, it was pretty also clear to me that it would be Van. Oh...you mean the love triangle ending, not just the end. Well, then I would say that the biggest "gtocha" would be Macross 7 (amazing how some people really wanted the 14-year-old girl to decide who she really loved...no 14-year-old knows that). We´ll have to agree to disagree on the Alto X Ranka path, I think that the ZOMG moments you mentioned didn´t break the logic of the plot. They were just dramatic visuals, which played with the imagination of the audience, but flowed all logically along in the storyline. Oh, I don't think they broke with the logic of the plot, just that they were big surprises that floored everybody. Yeah, well.. Escaflownes ending left me pissed for days, because I wanted Hitomi to *stay* with Van, instead of returning to Earth. So I know that Kawamori does do bittersweet endings and doesn´t always please the audience. Macross Zeros ending also isn´t exactly a happy one. As for Escaflownes ending, it is of course always possible for Hitomi to return to Vans planet, so it wasn´t all that bad. I just wanted those two to stay together. <sniff> But in the end, it´s not so bad an ending. That didn't bother me HALF as much as the revelation that Van and Allen's dearest wish was the fight each other to the death. I mean, seriously: COMPLETELY ruined the ending for me... While things have gotten quite dramatic due to the imminent end, the show doesn´t hesitate to show its more lighthearted side when it can. The general feeling of the show doesn´t point to a negative end. Macross Zero was far less lighthearted, so that bittersweet ending didn´t feel out of place. I think maybe you misunderstand my point. I was talking about stuff like, "Here's a character who kinda looks like Roy. he kinda acts like Roy, and he's got a Roy-style VF. He's gonna die, he's gonna die, HE'S GONNA DIE!! Wait...no, he's not. BOOM! Bye-bye, Max!" I wouldn't put it past the show to say, "It's gonna be Sheryl, it's gonna be Sheryl...well, maybe not." And I'm not saying that it WON'T be Sheryl, just saying that it MIGHT not be...is that really so controversial...?
magnuskn Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I think maybe you misunderstand my point. I was talking about stuff like, "Here's a character who kinda looks like Roy. he kinda acts like Roy, and he's got a Roy-style VF. He's gonna die, he's gonna die, HE'S GONNA DIE!! Wait...no, he's not. BOOM! Bye-bye, Max!" I wouldn't put it past the show to say, "It's gonna be Sheryl, it's gonna be Sheryl...well, maybe not." And I'm not saying that it WON'T be Sheryl, just saying that it MIGHT not be...is that really so controversial...? No, not controversial... I´m just friendly debating your point. And to me, that point which you cite with "Ozma = Roy = Dead... oh, wait" does apply to Sheryls situation in the fullest. We´ve been told so many times now that she´ll die, there is no cure, etc... so I see a clear path to her surviving, especially with the now revealed connection between her disease and Rankas glowing stomach. And her surviving would not come out of nowhere, exactly due to the foreshadowing that we got in regard to that connection.
Garou Kuroryuu Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Well, DUH. I'm not stupid, you know. I predict Gubaba doing an NGE's Shinji on Asuka-like comatose Nanase
DeeBot Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Why it's going to be AxR: Ranka is the Vajra queen. Alto and Ranka will hook up to bring interplanetary harmony between the species. Sheryl will accept this, because she's Sheryl Nome. The next day, she'll fall in love with Alto's adopted brother. Brera and Grace will also pair up. Because Grace is just a hurt little mad scientist, deep down inside, and just needs someone to love her. Captain Wilder and Monica will get it on, obviously. They're the Max and Milia of this series. Nanase will be revealed as a lesbian... not that we all didn't know already. Luca will storm off in frustration, if he hasn't be Kakizaki'd already, and go play with his high tech toys. Michel will make a miraculous final appearance. Klan will be overjoyed, let go of all her hate, and personally put a macro-sized bullet in Leon's head. Ozma and Cathy will have another fight, right before making out passionately. Did I leave anyone out? Good, you can get started writing the shipping fic on everything I missed.
lososaurus Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I predict Gubaba doing an NGE's Shinji on Asuka-like comatose Nanase Wow. Ew. I think it's a very real possibility for a 'magic' ending to save Sheryl. Frontier will make it to the Vajra homeworld and it is discovered that the Vajra mega-queen or Ranka can save Sheryl, but somehow it will have to be by Ranka's hand.
Gubaba Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 No, not controversial... I´m just friendly debating your point. And to me, that point which you cite with "Ozma = Roy = Dead... oh, wait" does apply to Sheryls situation in the fullest. We´ve been told so many times now that she´ll die, there is no cure, etc... so I see a clear path to her surviving, especially with the now revealed connection between her disease and Rankas glowing stomach. And her surviving would not come out of nowhere, exactly due to the foreshadowing that we got in regard to that connection. Oh I agree with you completely on that. I am 95% sure Sheryl is not going to die from the V-Virus, and 90% sure that she's not going to die at all. I predict Gubaba doing an NGE's Shinji on Asuka-like comatose Nanase I swear to God it wasn't me!
DeeBot Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Oh I agree with you completely on that. I am 95% sure Sheryl is not going to die from the V-Virus, and 90% sure that she's not going to die at all. I'm 10% sure Sheryl's already dead. The final episode will reveal this was all a flashback!
RF-26AAC Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I'm 10% sure Sheryl's already dead. The final episode will reveal this was all a flashback! Lies! I guess the title might be a hint... macross F, the F standing for FLASHBACK How lame would that be?!
dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 I predict Gubaba doing an NGE's Shinji on Asuka-like comatose Nanase I already hinted that luca would do something like that, and gubaba reacted violently... (yeah, you know, like a guilty person. )
dreamweaver13 Posted September 10, 2008 Posted September 10, 2008 Lies! I guess the title might be a hint... macross F, the F standing for FLASHBACK How lame would that be?! Not as lame as Minmay waking up to it all being a dream before the air show, as someone suggested.
Gubaba Posted September 11, 2008 Posted September 11, 2008 I'm 10% sure Sheryl's already dead. The final episode will reveal this was all a flashback! Lord, I hope you're wrong on that... I already hinted that luca would do something like that, and gubaba reacted violently... (yeah, you know, like a guilty person. ) I DIDN'T DO IT! YOU CAN'T PROVE ANYTHING! In fact...I bet it was YOU! YOU DID IT! KILL DREAMWEAVER13!!!
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