Macross Zero dogfights

[sharky]

I just finished re-watching Macross Zero. It's part of a "pilgrimage" of sorts to go through all the series and movies. I plan to do it once a year starting from Zero and going up.

Anyway, I am still blown away with the quality dogfight scenes. Specifically the opening scene and the first appearance of the VF-0s fighting Ivanov. The camera angles, the way it's choreographed, the music, the animation quality, etc. IMHO, they are the best dogfight sequences to date in the Macross franchise. They are just so well put together. Sure, there are plenty of awesome and compelling dogfight sequences: Max and Millia in DYRL, the Mac+ scenes to name a few. But if you knew nothing of the storyline and simply watched each dogfight from all the series and movies I have to rank the Zero ones the best. I'm just speaking from a purely visual perspective here. Just my two cents.

I wish they would re-do various dogfights from throughout Macross and do them with the animation quality and style of Zero. Just a collection of scenes released on BluRay disc.

What is your favorite and why?

[Gubaba]

Funny you should mention this, since I'm currently listening to MacZero O.S.T. 2, and "Macross Track" started just as I saw the title for this thread...

Although I'm usually against updating and futzing with the old stuff, I admit that it would be fun to see some fights "re-enacted" in CGI...but only if they got Itano to do the choreography.

And since Mac7 had, overall, the most disappointing mecha battles, I'd like to see something from that...make the Fire Valkyrie look as good as it does in the OP, and let's see Gamlin go all Machida on the Varauta Army. And if they could throw in Max and Millia in their VF-22s, that'd be even better.

[JustinStrife]

I had some problems with the lack of smoothness in the F-14's maneuvers in the opening dogfight, but overall, the VF fights were very well done.

[Shaka_Z]

I have to wholeheartedly agree here. with Zero, dogfight scenes became a high art (thanks in large part to CGI) on many levels. it doesn't hurt that of all the macross series, Zero is the most tightly focused in terms of scale. the entire series takes place on and in the immediate vicinity of mayan island, with a very small group of primary and secondary characters - indeed, the mecha themselves are more prominently featured in Zero than in any other.

Only Mac+ really can compare, as it was the previous champion in this respect and to be honest is only beaten by Zero with a very small margin, almost entirely because it's dogfights were drawn the old fashioned way, and so didn't have the same level of immersive realism. for instance, in Zero ep 1, the imagery is so good in the opening dogfight that one almost thinks they are actually there - even more so for the big fight in ep 5. if SK were to 'upgrade' M+ with the CGI techniques from Zero...

whoa.

the rest of + is just fine as it is... all he would need to do is what Lucas did for the first 3 star wars movies when he replaced the old school effects with CGI, although Lucas did spam the CGI brush a bit too much imho - no need to show 3 dozen different beauty shots of the falcon's approach and landing on Yavin IV for example.

justin.. you mention a lack of smoothness in the F-14's maneuvering... what do you mean? I understand that some movements were quite abrupt, but keep in mind that most footage you see of real modern fighters performing maneuvers really doesnt showcase what they are truly capable of.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[JustinStrife]

I have to wholeheartedly agree here. with Zero, dogfight scenes became a high art (thanks in large part to CGI) on many levels. it doesn't hurt that of all the macross series, Zero is the most tightly focused in terms of scale. the entire series takes place on and in the immediate vicinity of mayan island, with a very small group of primary and secondary characters - indeed, the mecha themselves are more prominently featured in Zero than in any other.

Only Mac+ really can compare, as it was the previous champion in this respect and to be honest is only beaten by Zero with a very small margin, almost entirely because it's dogfights were drawn the old fashioned way, and so didn't have the same level of immersive realism. for instance, in Zero ep 1, the imagery is so good in the opening dogfight that one almost thinks they are actually there - even more so for the big fight in ep 5. if SK were to 'upgrade' M+ with the CGI techniques from Zero...

whoa.

the rest of + is just fine as it is... all he would need to do is what Lucas did for the first 3 star wars movies when he replaced the old school effects with CGI, although Lucas did spam the CGI brush a bit too much imho - no need to show 3 dozen different beauty shots of the falcon's approach and landing on Yavin IV for example.

justin.. you mention a lack of smoothness in the F-14's maneuvering... what do you mean? I understand that some movements were quite abrupt, but keep in mind that most footage you see of real modern fighters performing maneuvers really doesnt showcase what they are truly capable of.

Trust me. The F-14's movements aren't THAT fast as a dog-fighter in the air. It's a very heavy fighter, and doesn't turn as fast as F15's, F16's, F18's, etc. It's primary purpose was as a Fleet Defender based around the Phoenix missile. It does pretty well as a dog-fighter, but it gets completely beat out by the other Jets I mentioned in terms of maneuverability.

I've flown with an ex F14 jock. He use to tell me stories about dog fighting with Air Force F15's and the F14 just can't handle with them.

The movement when it changed left to right direction wasn't very smooth. It was more abrupt than realistic. I grew up at Pt. Mugu and my Father was a Navy pilot so my whole life I've been around this stuff. I've got time in civilian jets as well.

[Shaka_Z]

Trust me. The F-14's movements aren't THAT fast as a dog-fighter in the air. It's a very heavy fighter, and doesn't turn as fast as F15's, F16's, F18's, etc. It's primary purpose was as a Fleet Defender based around the Phoenix missile. It does pretty well as a dog-fighter, but it gets completely beat out by the other Jets I mentioned in terms of maneuverability.

I've flown with an ex F14 jock. He use to tell me stories about dog fighting with Air Force F15's and the F14 just can't handle with them.

The movement when it changed left to right direction wasn't very smooth. It was more abrupt than realistic. I grew up at Pt. Mugu and my Father was a Navy pilot so my whole life I've been around this stuff. I've got time in civilian jets as well.

true that... I see your point - there are a few instances in that opening fight where I was thinking the breaking turns in particular were a bit too abrupt myself but figured that it was 'close enough' for the depiction seeing as I know for certain that I have only seen unclassified or 'documentary' footage of fighters maneuvering - I figured that in the footage I've seen they were really taking things on the easy side... more like a thunderbirds or blue angels performance (yeah I know those performances are intense, but they arent anywhere near the bleeding edge of the envelope either).

Edited September 8, 2008 by Shaka_Z

[hobbes221]

Trust me. The F-14's movements aren't THAT fast as a dog-fighter in the air. It's a very heavy fighter, and doesn't turn as fast as F15's, F16's, F18's, etc. It's primary purpose was as a Fleet Defender based around the Phoenix missile. It does pretty well as a dog-fighter, but it gets completely beat out by the other Jets I mentioned in terms of maneuverability.

I've flown with an ex F14 jock. He use to tell me stories about dog fighting with Air Force F15's and the F14 just can't handle with them.

The movement when it changed left to right direction wasn't very smooth. It was more abrupt than realistic. I grew up at Pt. Mugu and my Father was a Navy pilot so my whole life I've been around this stuff. I've got time in civilian jets as well.

You're right on most of that, but I can agree with 'and the F14 just can't handle with them.' in the right hands the Cat could whup most anything in the sky. For all those would who would like to read about some great Navy stories google 'The Hoser Chronicles' for a great read.

And yes I do love the dogfights from Zero.

Edited September 8, 2008 by hobbes221

[DeeBot]

Take this with a grain of salt, since the last time I re-watched Zero was back when "Legend of Zero" came out, but I actually recall not liking the Zero dogfights all that much. They came across to me as a bit too frantic, which may be realistic (I can't really say what dogfighting in variable fighters would really be like), but seemed like little more than excuses to splurge on the mecha pr0n. I didn't feel like the storytelling was being moved forward much by the combat sequences.

In contrast, I always enjoyed the dogfights in the original series, which is all the more amazing considering that they were hand-drawn vs. Zero's flashy CGI. The pace was slower, the action simpler, and I felt like I could sit back and take it all in. Max's scenes were always a treat, in particular. They were just fast enough that you could be impressed with his virtuosity, but slow enough to still take in all the action.

That's not to say that Zero's combat sequences weren't gorgeously rendered, and there were some real spectacular, impressive moments that I enjoyed, but most of the time the fights were just a blur to me. I mainly waited for all the explosions to end so we could move on to the next plot point. Sadly, I think Frontier's dogfights come across pretty much the same way to me.

Edited September 8, 2008 by DeeBot

[d3v]

Take this with a grain of salt, since the last time I re-watched Zero was back when "Legend of Zero" came out, but I actually recall not liking the Zero dogfights all that much. They came across to me as a bit too frantic, which may be realistic (I can't really say what dogfighting in variable fighters would really be like), but seemed like little more than excuses to splurge on the mecha pr0n. I didn't feel like the storytelling was being moved forward much by the combat sequences.

In contrast, I always enjoyed the dogfights in the original series, which is all the more amazing considering that they were hand-drawn vs. Zero's flashy CGI. The pace was slower, the action simpler, and I felt like I could sit back and take it all in. Max's scenes were always a treat, in particular. They were just fast enough that you could be impressed with his virtuosity, but slow enough to still take in all the action.

That's not to say that Zero's combat sequences weren't gorgeously rendered, and there were some real spectacular, impressive moments that I enjoyed, but most of the time the fights were just a blur to me. I mainly waited for all the explosions to end so we could move on to the next plot point. Sadly, I think Frontier's dogfights come across pretty much the same way to me.

Well what would you expect from Itano and co. his style is mostly about the sheer joy of movement and the CG medium gave him the tools to push his style to the limit.

Edited September 8, 2008 by d3v

[Final Vegeta]

I think OVAs have an advantage in time available for action scenes. With a TV episode, 20 mins are not enough for a big battle, you just see snippets of action here and there and then the main character scene. With an OVA you can have enough time for the action scene of another character too, as demonstrated by Macross Zero.

I still say in Macross Plus they pulled more extreme stunts though.

Frontier has very good action scenes, they are just short and to the point. If it gets the OVA/Movie option, I think it could top everything we've seen until now.

FV

[sharky]

Take this with a grain of salt, since the last time I re-watched Zero was back when "Legend of Zero" came out, but I actually recall not liking the Zero dogfights all that much. They came across to me as a bit too frantic, which may be realistic (I can't really say what dogfighting in variable fighters would really be like), but seemed like little more than excuses to splurge on the mecha pr0n. I didn't feel like the storytelling was being moved forward much by the combat sequences.

In contrast, I always enjoyed the dogfights in the original series, which is all the more amazing considering that they were hand-drawn vs. Zero's flashy CGI. The pace was slower, the action simpler, and I felt like I could sit back and take it all in. Max's scenes were always a treat, in particular. They were just fast enough that you could be impressed with his virtuosity, but slow enough to still take in all the action.

That's not to say that Zero's combat sequences weren't gorgeously rendered, and there were some real spectacular, impressive moments that I enjoyed, but most of the time the fights were just a blur to me. I mainly waited for all the explosions to end so we could move on to the next plot point. Sadly, I think Frontier's dogfights come across pretty much the same way to me.

That's cool. We each have our own reasons for liking or not liking something. To your point about the fast pace, I personally feel the DYRL dogfights were a bit quick IHMO. I mentioned the DYRL scene of Max and Millia which I thought was great, but the opening scene was a bit fast I thought. I can remember first watching it and not really knowing what the heck was going on. I had to pause and advance frame by frame in order to absorb and understand what exactly happened. The moves in particular that lead up to Max pulling a Zentran out of his Regult and blowing him away with the gunpod mounted to his forearm had me confused at first. I think after watching this kind of fast paced action, I thought the Zero ones were better in comparison. I mean, I could actually follow the action from the beginning.

Going back to Zero, I enjoyed the novel elements such as the SV-51 where Ivanov would extend his head sensor like a periscope to track the enemy and shoot while still under cover. I think they showed us some new stuff as far as moves going from fighter, gerwalk, and battroid modes in order to gain a tactical advantage. In my mind I kept thinking, if variable fighters were real they would probably try to do moves like that to get an upper hand.

It's all good. And it is interesting to read other people's perspectives. That's why I started the thread. Feel free to express your opinion. I take no offense if you don't agree with me. There are no wrong answers when it comes to loving Macross.

Edited September 8, 2008 by sharky

[DeeBot]

It's all good. And it is interesting to read other people's perspectives. That's why I started the thread. Feel free to express your opinion. I take no offense if you don't agree with me. There are no wrong answers when it comes to loving Macross.

That was the spirit in which the comment was intended. I still like Zero quite a bit, I just thought I'd throw out a differing opinion before this becomes a Zero dogfight lovefest.

[sharky]

I think OVAs have an advantage in time available for action scenes. With a TV episode, 20 mins are not enough for a big battle, you just see snippets of action here and there and then the main character scene. With an OVA you can have enough time for the action scene of another character too, as demonstrated by Macross Zero.

I still say in Macross Plus they pulled more extreme stunts though.

Frontier has very good action scenes, they are just short and to the point. If it gets the OVA/Movie option, I think it could top everything we've seen until now.

FV

Not to get off topic, but there is one example where I was very disappointed in an OVA and the lack of action scenes. The last battle in Gunbuster really disappointed me when they inserted storyboard sketches set to music. I was all set for a very climatic, intense, and exciting scene, only to be let down. It took me a long time to come to grips with it, but I finally let that issue go because I loved the rest of it so much. I always wondered if it was simply because they ran out of time and/or money and couldn't finish animating it, or they were truly trying to be artistic.

Back to your point, I would agree that OVA releases do tend to have better animation quality. Frontier is taking things to a new level IMO for a series. It is really a treat because I feel the animation quality is very good and rivals many OVA's that are out there right now.

Edited September 8, 2008 by sharky

[ChronoReverse]

Weren't the F-14's in that scene upgraded? I had assumed that since I also noticed that the motions Shin was pulling aren't exactly possible (or possible without severe damage) with a F-14. Still, it's all good since it's the Rule of Cool. I mean, who doesn't want to see someone dodge a Macross Missile Massacre using a F-14?

[Prime]

Yes. They were upgraded and even used some Overtechnology for avionics and such.

[P.Knipe]

I gotta agree the dogfights are simply amazing in Macross Zero, just the best I've ever seen. I can watch those scenes over and over and still just be completely amazed by how awesome they are!

And since Mac7 had, overall, the most disappointing mecha battles

Macross 7 definitely had some boring battles, reusing the same scene over and over and seeing the VF-11 just get blown away exactly the same way as every other VF-11 was really disappointing. But surprisingly my favorite Macross scene has to be when Max defolds in his VF-22 on the fourth planet and flies into the cave just owning every fighter and gun turret without getting a scratch. Granted its nothing amazing or more spectacular then anything in Macross Zero but something about that scene just amazes me!

[Macross007]

Yes. They were upgraded and even used some Overtechnology for avionics and such.

Where did you get that info ?

[Mark Nguyen]

I'd not be surprised if the 14s were upgraded with SOMETHING. In "real life", all Tomcats were retired in 2006. I can easily see this date being extended due to the global conflicts that continued as a result of ASS-1, or even that the Tomcats were brought OUT of mothballs and upgraded when the UN / US Navy ran out of Hornets and Super Hornets due to wartime attrition. Hell, for all we know Shinn and company were flying old clunkers simply because there wasn't anything else!

Everyone I've read who's flown a Tomcat can attest to its speed and handling being a joy, but no match to the Air Force's planes. And from a purely maintenance perspective, I know from a friend of mine who works on a Hornet squadron that back in the day, typically by the time a Tomcat crew was finished their maintenance, everyone from the Hornet crews were already polishing off their second round at the bar. That was mainly because of the complexity of the swing wings on an F-14 - one can only imagine the maintenance nightmare that a variable fighter must be!

Perhaps OT could have been applied to a Tomcat's VG wings? Maybe making the wings easily maintained and stress-resistant, they could have contributed to making the plane much easier to maintain and fly? What about more powerful engines, better avionics, etc.?

Mark

[Gubaba]

I gotta agree the dogfights are simply amazing in Macross Zero, just the best I've ever seen. I can watch those scenes over and over and still just be completely amazed by how awesome they are!

Macross 7 definitely had some boring battles, reusing the same scene over and over and seeing the VF-11 just get blown away exactly the same way as every other VF-11 was really disappointing. But surprisingly my favorite Macross scene has to be when Max defolds in his VF-22 on the fourth planet and flies into the cave just owning every fighter and gun turret without getting a scratch. Granted its nothing amazing or more spectacular then anything in Macross Zero but something about that scene just amazes me!

Yeah, I loved the whole Operation Stargazer arc, and I think all but the most unforgiving Macross 7 hater would agree with me.

I liked the rest of Mac7, too, but I would have liked to see at least a few more truly fierce battles.

[Shaka_Z]

I'd not be surprised if the 14s were upgraded with SOMETHING. In "real life", all Tomcats were retired in 2006. I can easily see this date being extended due to the global conflicts that continued as a result of ASS-1, or even that the Tomcats were brought OUT of mothballs and upgraded when the UN / US Navy ran out of Hornets and Super Hornets due to wartime attrition. Hell, for all we know Shinn and company were flying old clunkers simply because there wasn't anything else!

Everyone I've read who's flown a Tomcat can attest to its speed and handling being a joy, but no match to the Air Force's planes. And from a purely maintenance perspective, I know from a friend of mine who works on a Hornet squadron that back in the day, typically by the time a Tomcat crew was finished their maintenance, everyone from the Hornet crews were already polishing off their second round at the bar. That was mainly because of the complexity of the swing wings on an F-14 - one can only imagine the maintenance nightmare that a variable fighter must be!

Perhaps OT could have been applied to a Tomcat's VG wings? Maybe making the wings easily maintained and stress-resistant, they could have contributed to making the plane much easier to maintain and fly? What about more powerful engines, better avionics, etc.?

Mark

methinks this hypothesis makes a great deal of sense.... Valks must not be all that difficult to maintain or repair, or else there would be little point to using them. ahh the wonders of overtech ^^

[dreamweaver13]

While i agree that the Macross Zero dogfights absolutely ROCK (and are, quite possibly, the best ones animated thus far), my sentimental favorite would still be Isamu vs. Guld, their final dogfight on earth. i mean, my jaw just DROPPED when i saw that fight.

i guess by the time macross zero came along, i already expected spectacular dogfights, given the budget and recent technological advances in animation. but when MacPlus came out... man, oh man, that really shocked my systems to the core.

[Macross007]

While i agree that the Macross Zero dogfights absolutely ROCK (and are, quite possibly, the best ones animated thus far), my sentimental favorite would still be Isamu vs. Guld, their final dogfight on earth. i mean, my jaw just DROPPED when i saw that fight.

i guess by the time macross zero came along, i already expected spectacular dogfights, given the budget and recent technological advances in animation. but when MacPlus came out... man, oh man, that really shocked my systems to the core.

Same here dude. When I watched Macross Plus for the first time, I did not know that was possible to animate fight like that in an animation work. I guess I was so used to watch crap cartoon. F*uch yeah anime and Macross !!!

Edited September 10, 2008 by Macross007

[505thAirborne]

Well whether or Not the F-14D's we see in Macross Zero were upgraded or not with some type of Over-technology, there performance in the OVA is amazing, I've been watching Macross since 1985 on bad bootlegged VHS tapes, till now with the best of DVD's, looking forward to Zero on Blue-ray disc soon!!!

Either way the dogfight scenes are amazing, like others have said & I couldn't agree more, every time you see the opening F-14D dogfight sequence too Ivanov & Focker dueling it out, it just blows your mind how far Macross has come in both innovation and photography!! That is the real amazement!!

As far as Macross Zero goes, though old school, Max & Milia from DYRL over the Alien city, another ultimate Dog fight in my book!!! Unlike the other dog fights where they end in a draw or a close call, Max said hell no, your going down!!!!!!! , nearly killed his future wife!!!

Edited September 10, 2008 by 505thAirborne

[lososaurus]

For me, Zero is my favorite and I think has the best dogfights for a couple reasons. Zero has the perfect opening and introduction to Variable Fighters. Let's assume you've never heard of Macross or Variable Fighters or Mecha or anime or anything that could expand your imagination and I told you there was an entire series based around F-14's and other fighters that transform into robots and chicken walkers, would you think I'm crazy? Why would you need a fighter to transform into a robot or a chicken walker? That's where Zero absolutely nails it. Open up with F-14's taking on MiG's, fighters that are certainly capable of doing some damage( Were Macross to be updated, I say to have F-22's taking on Su-47's because they are the modern fighters ), but they're limited. Sure the F-14 has the Phoenix missile and the MiGs can handle like no other, but they fill one particular role and even then, cannot perform extreme maneuvers. Show the usefulness of being able to transform into a battroid and gerwalk by having a Variable Fighter take on F-14s and absolutely decimate them. What's interesting though is a variable fighter can more or less replace an assault helicopter like the Apache using gerwalk and provide close support through battroid and air superiority though fighter mode.

What I like about Zero is the escalation of the use of all the different modes of a Variable Fighter and how well grounded in reality the OVA is( Compared to the rest of the franchise ). If I were to introduce someone to Macross, I think I'd do it with Zero because of the ramping up it does, plus once they're open to the idea of ridiculous maneuvers, combat decisions and everything transforming, psychological warfare through singing might not seem so ridiculous

I'd have to put M+ second too, I didn't care for the story, but seeing so much care and attention put into the dogfights, all hand animated is something very special.