Macross Frontier Episode 22 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Major Focker]

I believe Luca states that once the virus reaches the brain it starts producing a certain toxin, and once that happens it's no longer possible to treat. But it's in this state that her voice has started to emit faint fold waves. Also the virus shares some similarities with Vajra blood types(?), and that it seems to be low concentration in the blood, making it difficult to find, not too sure. Erk, medical words is not my thing. That's about it.

so they'll basically not treat sheryl so they can have another fold wave generator?

or is she already beyond saving anyway?

what were alto and sheryl talking about that led them to hug eachother?

never wanted subs so bad..

[Cybergig1]

ahhhhhhhhh I've got to get home and download this >_< sounds too good. And awesome about the Alto vs Ozma action. I just knew that had to happen towards the end so we could get some valk on valk action haha

My Sheryl mustn't die, damn Luca or someone better find a cure. Maybe they can ask the Vajra for help later on!? o

Edited September 4, 2008 by Cybergig1

[Major Focker]

spoiler tags please

[VF-25 Messiah]

Sorry to be dragging this out due to the lack of a raw. Was Luca stating this though without any on-screen or spoken evidence that they had pulled any diagnostic tests (brain scans, bloodwork) on Sheryl?

Sheryl never had a proper blood test in the hospital since everything was switched around. If Sheryl is an engineered human with some Vajra dna (unbeknownst to her) she may be able to either withstand the toxin or her body may find an equilibrium point.

I know I'm getting very technical here, but I'm still bothered by Grace makign the blood vial switch. It's clear from the last few episodes that she didnt' fully understand "the mysteries behind the Queen" until she had dissected the Vajra, who to me had looked like had something found inside it... if those same items are in ranka and sheryl, then hmmm...

I'm assuming he's stating stuff from the papers he gave Sheryl. What tests they did remains unknown, but seems it had to involve a blood test, since he's talking about that, however that part i'm having trouble understanding, wish i had closed captions so I could look up the unknowns

He begins saying that she contracted with V-virus and been a carrier for 11 years. She more or less confirms, after he does the above explanation. (I changed it a bit since you quoted me)

Sheryl in the middle retorts by asking him "Are you having fun? Using such complicated words to tell me I'm going to die?"

Hearing that she will have the same abilities as Ranka, causes Sheryl to wonder wether she too has the disease. To which Luca replies no, saying that Ranka's abilities are an unknown.

[VF-25 Messiah]

so they'll basically not treat sheryl so they can have another fold wave generator?

or is she already beyond saving anyway?

what were alto and sheryl talking about that led them to hug eachother?

never wanted subs so bad..

Already beyond saving, if they're to be believed.

And very roughly:

A: "Stop it! It's enough already! enough..."

S: "So you've heard?... I see. I at least wanted to keep this from you. I wonder why, when I understood about the sickness, that was the thing I thought the most. "

A: "It's enough. You don't have to force yourself to smile anymore. You don't have to sing. Sheryl."

S: "No! I'm going to sing!

A: "Sheryl..."

S: "I only have singing left! Only that is proof that I lived. So...I... But I'm afraid. Afraid and lonely. It's strange. Even though I decided I would live as Sheryl Nome."

A: "I'll be there. If you're going to sing, then I'll be by your side until the last moment."

S: "Alto... Alto... give me courage. Courage to keep me singing forever."

Edited September 4, 2008 by VF-25 Messiah

[Major Focker]

Already beyond saving, if they're to be believed.

oh man, i won't be able to sleep with that thought

[panpo98]

It's not strange that Grace survived after all. Grace is a cyborg like Brera after all and we have all seen what Brera can do.

The new president sure can act. Sheryl doesn't seem to impressed with what he and Luka said to her. Still remembering being dumped the first time.

(I don't understand a single word of Japanese)

[VF-25 Messiah]

It's not strange that Grace survived after all. Grace is a cyborg like Brera after all and we have all seen what Brera can do.

The new president sure can act. Sheryl doesn't seem to impressed with what he and Luka said to her. Still remembering being dumped the first time.

(I don't understand a single word of Japanese)

She seemed unimpressed until they revealed she will have the same abilities as Ranka. Also Grace is out of the picture when it comes to management anyway. Being that she seems to have little time left, I can see her taking the bait, which would be tragic. At least it's going to be an interesting finale.

Another tradegy would be Elmo getting screwed over by Leon, again.

[Swampstorm]

She seemed unimpressed until they revealed she will have the same abilities as Ranka. Also Grace is out of the picture when it comes to management anyway. Being that she seems to have little time left, I can see her taking the bait, which would be tragic. At least it's going to be an interesting finale.

Another tradegy would be Elmo getting screwed over by Leon, again.

There's a shot of Sheryl thinking about the memorial left for the dead in the aftermath of the last Vajra attack during that scene. I think that she's acting more on the sense of responsibility that she has to fill in for Ranka now that she's left Frontier.

It was also nice to see how worried Sheryl was when she thought that Ranka might be dying from the same illness.

[DeeBot]

I can't understand a word of what's going on, but is there any significance to the fact that the three SMS members we're familiar with who stayed behind (Alto, Luca, and Klan) have the biggest grudges against the Vajra? Perhaps that little secure message Cathy sent out was a choose-your-side moment. Bit of a shame, although understandable, considering each character's personal experience to this point.

I like the white color scheme on the VF-171, too. Bring on the hero shields!

[VF-25 Messiah]

There's a shot of Sheryl thinking about the memorial left for the dead in the aftermath of the last Vajra attack during that scene. I think that she's acting more on the sense of responsibility that she has to fill in for Ranka now that she's left Frontier.

It was also nice to see how worried Sheryl was when she thought that Ranka might be dying from the same illness.

Whatever her purpose, becoming Leon's tool would still be tragic. Wasn't implying she wasn't acting on anything but the best of intentions however. Same could be said about Ranka when she was recruited by Leon (or enlisted rather... leads me to wonder did Sheryl have any 'choice' in the matter at all? Then again, Grace won't be inolved this time so Sheryl has little reason to refuse)

[Final Vegeta]

FRONTIER IS BACK AT FULL FORCE!

This episode is as badass as ep. 17. Maybe because of Ozma

Ozma: fart off, Alto, now I am the main character! You are cannon fodder!

Maybe Alto piloting a VF-171 is a move from Kawamori to force Bandai to make a toy of the VF-171

It's weird how Alto never stole the scene to anyone ever, even though he is the main character

Grace doesn't have a real body anymore. It would be idiotic to pilot a VF-27 with a human body, you can't use it fully.

Brera's trip seems to be just as planned again. The only question is who introduced the Vajra larva in Frontier in the first place.

Sheryl has two new dresses, it was time.

Wilder is the best captain ever! Well, you know that it may not be the first one to do it, still this is setting up a Macross Quarter VS Battle Frontier. It couldn't be more awesome, unless Galaxy join the fight.

Ranka's doll was a nice homage.

Seems like Kawamori knows his fans, Luca actually called Ranka a traitor!

Awesome episode!

FV

[Isamu Starkiller]

Grace grew boobies!

That is all...need subs for this episode more than any other.

Oh and

Leon took public speaking lessons from Adolf Hitler...

[DeeBot]

Another thing I noticed that I forget to mention... the Vajra planet that we see at the end has

three moons, arranged in a symmetrical triangle pattern. Seems pretty significant!

That "eye" storm-like is part of the orbital ring, I'm pretty sure, rather than being a storm on the surface of the planet. It's likely to be some sort of massive, literally globe-girdling Vajra complex. The home hive, in all likelihood. Probably just crawling with Vajra.

[s-girl]

All I find is information on v-type ATPases, which has nothing to do with viruses. The closest thing in viruses would be those that have a v-type domain, In this case v = variable. This does play a role in viral susceptibility, but I don't think that it is what the "v" in the v-type virus stands for.

Actually it does. It has to do with cell membranes, protein production, and pumps. I am not about to dive deeply into these papers, but viruses and cell proteins do have some relationship to each other. Additionally proteins in membranes also factor into adhesion/entry of viruses into cells.

However, it is more than likely the "V" is something dumb like "Vajra" although I would hope not. After they made the statement of "Witchcraft" being a protein channel inhibitor or some type of channel inhibitor, I thought it was starting to make sense from the molecular cell level. Therapeutically there is some basis to what the Witchcraft pill does , in other words.

And immunologically that means still that Sheryl has a fighting chance if there are some experimental medicine types or biologists aboard Frontier . (Or rather, Galaxy, since they're more advanced technologically...)

Edited September 4, 2008 by s-girl

[magnuskn]

Grace doesn't have a real body anymore. It would be idiotic to pilot a VF-27 with a human body, you can't use it fully.

She already is a cyborg. No upgrades needed. Also, she survived the ambush, so no new body at all.

Well, at least now the path is clear on how Sheryl will survive. She has the same bugs in her blood as Ranka does, so Ranka will save her by magic-whateverness-transfusion, letting Ranka have her "grow up" moment, because helping Sheryl survive will mean letting Alto go.

[AcroRay]

I swear we're gonna have people acting like love sick dogs for Grace for the week...

I preferred her from the start. Leave the little loli signing idols home with the babysitter for the evening...

Rowr...

[DarkReaper]

So what was the little spacewalk for? Just walking the vajra?

Anyway great plot development however I didn't get why Alto had the white VF-171s as part of skull squadron even before the sms was joined with nuns. 2 recon VFs is too much anyway. What do they need Luca and another RVF-171 in a fighting squad.

I wonder why Alto was so desperate to kill his former mentor Ozma. Was it because of propaganda that Mac 1/4 has defected to the vajra and that they therefore have to die because they now have killed michel by proxy?

The wait for Subs will be hard...

[lanis]

Did anyone else see implied AltoxSheryl love scene? He moves in for the kiss right as the camera moves up.

That's how they do it in all the hollywood movies when they can't show anything for fear of corrupting the kiddies^_^

[Final Vegeta]

Did anyone else see implied AltoxSheryl love scene? He moves in for the kiss right as the camera moves up. That's how they do it in all the hollywood movies when they can't show anything for fear of corrupting the kiddies^_^

Yeah, it was clearly implied. I wouldn't be surprised though if in a latter flashback it was revealed Alto just hugged her again

Or better: he gave her a paperplane

Only three pages so far for such an awesome episode

FV

[azrael]

Only three pages so far for such an awesome episode

Dialog heavy and low action episodes don't exactly get people to start yapping away.

[Final Vegeta]

Dialog heavy and low action episodes don't exactly get people to start yapping away.

This episode actually has more mecha action sequences than the previous episode some very nice new stuff also.

FV

[Darial]

This episode actually has more mecha action sequences than the previous episode some very nice new stuff also.

FV

That's because all the romance shippers are shipping away on the AS forum.

[yaiba]

It has to do with cell membranes, protein production, and pumps. I am not about to dive deeply into these papers, but viruses and cell proteins do have some relationship to each other. Additionally proteins in membranes also factor into adhesion/entry of viruses into cells.

These are a given [in a general sense]. I'm no expert in viruses, but I have yet to hear of an earth virus that hijacked an ATP pump through any mechanism. Bacteria yes, but not viruses. Viruses as we know of them code for a polymerase (to replicate their DNA or RNA), a coat protein (to encapsulate the DNA or RNA), and a some sort of receptor protein to allow them to attach to target cells. They pretty much don't have room for much else. The v-type virus in MF may in fact have room for other stuff since its a big phage-type virus, but in any event, there is no earth analog that I am aware of.

Here endeth the lesson.

And immunologically that means still that Sheryl has a fighting chance if there are some experimental medicine types or biologists aboard Frontier . (Or rather, Galaxy, since they're more advanced technologically...)

This is why I said back in ep. 18 or 19 that she should have gone to see an expert instead of listening to Grace. Why crawl into a corner to die when you have the marvels of 21st century medicine to treat you? Hell, they came up with a cure for the equivalent pineapple salad, why not for some pesky virus that already has an inhibitor in production?

[quen]

Very Nice ep

Ozma does get great lines:

*Ozma talks about this being the best way to protect the woman precious to him*

Alto (incredulous at Ozma's line):

女って。。。それが大人の言う事かよ？！

"A woman...Is that something an adult would say?!"

Ozma:

悪いが俺は大人じゃなくて男なんだよ！！

"Sorry, I'm not an adult, I'm a man!!"

*boom* *boom* *boom*

Ozma channeling Kamina? Awesome

Guessing every ending from here on will be at this level of cliffhanger, nerves are

Edited September 4, 2008 by quen

[stray]

Elmo as Sheryl's new manager FTMFW!!!!

Other than that... I need subs.

[Darial]

Guessing every ending from here on will be at this level of cliffhanger, nerves are

Yeah, Ozma is super GAR as always. The man really is like Roy on stereoids. And I agree that the next two episodes are gonna be really hard to bear. At least it will end (hopefully gloriously) in three weeks.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Incredible episode (even without subs)...

So now

Alto, Luca and Klan are NUNS.

Brera escaping with Ranka has been Grace's plan all along... She wants to use Ranka to control the Vajra for Galaxy...

I don't know nihongo, but I almost could hear at the end that Ozma's last words to Alto were like... "Ranka was right on leaving you... you will never change..." or something like it... That would explain Alto's rage scream at the end...

Oh, and right after the credits...

The Protoculture Planet

... DECULTURE!!!!

I guess that

Galaxy anonymous were saying something like "So this is what the Vajra have been protecting all along...".

This was a beautifully crafted pivotal episode... Like I said before... the last ones are going to be legendary!!! MARK MY WORDS...

Edited September 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[rubi]

FRONTIER IS BACK AT FULL FORCE!

Seems like Kawamori knows his fans, Luca actually called Ranka a traitor!

Awesome episode!

FV

Looks like he thinks he became a man since they leaved his cheek alone

She already is a cyborg. No upgrades needed. Also, she survived the ambush, so no new body at all.

Well, at least now the path is clear on how Sheryl will survive. She has the same bugs in her blood as Ranka does, so Ranka will save her by magic-whateverness-transfusion, letting Ranka have her "grow up" moment, because helping Sheryl survive will mean letting Alto go.

so Ranka will save her by magic-whateverness-transfusion, ? Too good to be true .

letting Ranka have her "grow up" moment,? she already had it since Ozma compare Alto with Ranka who for the first time made her choice...

because helping Sheryl survive will mean letting Alto go ? For sheryl to survive, Grace must tell the whole truth about her first. No one knows anything about her except she was picked on the streets. And everything doesn't turn around Sheryl and Alto... I don't understand the link with the cure of her disease by Ranka and the love stuff between Alto and Sheryl....

Did anyone else see implied AltoxSheryl love scene? He moves in for the kiss right as the camera moves up. That's how they do it in all the hollywood movies when they can't show anything for fear of corrupting the kiddies^_^

I didn't see it , just that Sheryl forgot to close her legs and to put the blanket

Grace sure likes her hopes and dreams too. Why do they have to grasp their breasts like that , seriously ?! What 's with this metal in the face like Brera...

I hope the 23 will be better... Hopefully Ozma comes back in the plot for good...

[azrael]

At this point in the series, I really shouldn't have to remind you people about the 12-hour spoiler tag notice.

[s-girl]

These are a given [in a general sense]. I'm no expert in viruses, but I have yet to hear of an earth virus that hijacked an ATP pump through any mechanism. Bacteria yes, but not viruses. Viruses as we know of them code for a polymerase (to replicate their DNA or RNA), a coat protein (to encapsulate the DNA or RNA), and a some sort of receptor protein to allow them to attach to target cells. They pretty much don't have room for much else. The v-type virus in MF may in fact have room for other stuff since its a big phage-type virus, but in any event, there is no earth analog that I am aware of.

Here endeth the lesson.

This is probably not worth continuing discussing at this point as I suspect we're the only ones really interested in this. Still, one last pass and then I'm done. My studies of molecular bio and virology are outdated by ten years, so if a virologist wants to jump in, please do.

Going further into Google shows there is a valid connection to the specific example you were concerned about (http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/4/2306). However, "v-type" itself can serve as a description of a protein region that figures into binding sites (http://en.scientificcommons.org/11704006).

For the rest, the analogy of HIV or any virus with negative side effects works pretty well to explain what Sheryl has and questions about her uncureability.

Witchcraft was likely a binding site inhibitor, therefore giving Sheryl some potential protection from the virus entering cells and hijacking their mechanisms to make more virii. Since we're dealing with a virus, antiviral cocktails also could help her. The technology exists on Galaxy to engineer other medicines like it. (It may exist on Frontier as Nanase's friend was able to provide us with the explanationa nd the analysis on the medicine, although replicating something like it in time may not be within reach of Frontier's current capabilities.)

IT boggles my mind that the writers have gone so far to explain what the Witchcraft pill was and to think that the solutions at the end to Sheryl's disease (Should she be cured) will be more metaphysical rather than scientific. Then again, Kawamori may want to pull that contrast off. I don't know enough about his writing staff's personal philosophies to guess whether they might throw that at us and go for a mystical resolution versus a more technical one.

[Cybergig1]

I didn't see it , just that Sheryl forgot to close her legs and to put the blanket

actually I was wondering the same thing. well maybe not a "love scene" but it did look like he went in for the kiss and or she maybe put her head up on his chest. There was definitely -a move- haha I had to back it up a few times since at first glance I was like

did that just happen!?

Edited September 4, 2008 by Cybergig1

[Kronnang Dunn]

This is probably not worth continuing discussing at this point as I suspect we're the only ones really interested in this. Still, one last pass and then I'm done. My studies of molecular bio and virology are outdated by ten years, so if a virologist wants to jump in, please do.

Going further into Google shows there is a valid connection to the specific example you were concerned about (http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/4/2306). However, "v-type" itself can serve as a description of a protein region that figures into binding sites (http://en.scientificcommons.org/11704006).

For the rest, the analogy of HIV or any virus with negative side effects works pretty well to explain what Sheryl has and questions about her uncureability.

Witchcraft was likely a binding site inhibitor, therefore giving Sheryl some potential protection from the virus entering cells and hijacking their mechanisms to make more virii. Since we're dealing with a virus, antiviral cocktails also could help her. The technology exists on Galaxy to engineer other medicines like it. (It may exist on Frontier as Nanase's friend was able to provide us with the explanationa nd the analysis on the medicine, although replicating something like it in time may not be within reach of Frontier's current capabilities.)

IT boggles my mind that the writers have gone so far to explain what the Witchcraft pill was and to think that the solutions at the end to Sheryl's disease (Should she be cured) will be more metaphysical rather than scientific. Then again, Kawamori may want to pull that contrast off. I don't know enough about his writing staff's personal philosophies to guess whether they might throw that at us and go for a mystical resolution versus a more technical one.

Nice infectology/virology tech talk there (I'm a medical doctor, so I understood everything, hehe)... But I think that in the end it will all depend on Kawamori's own personal choice, since he's the big cheese, not his writers...

And don't underestimate metaphysical explanations, since "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"... I'm positive we are going to have serious "magical" stuff from now on until the end of the series...

(I don't know about you, but aligning 3 moons in a triangular pattern around a planet as well as creating a ring on its orbit with an ancient symbol on it looks kind magical to me...)

Edited September 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn

[RichterX]

I really hope the mystery planet, is the center of the galaxy, fleets have been heading there for 50 years so far it is about time that someone reaches it.

[Kronnang Dunn]

I really hope the mystery planet, is the center of the galaxy, fleets have been heading there for 50 years so far it is about time that someone reaches it.

Err... actually

the planet seemed like a

Protoculture Planet (hence the spiral symbol)

... But science wise

it can't be the center of the galaxy since there's a supermassive black hole in it. That "triangler" planet must be very near to it, but it can't be exactly at the center...

Edited September 4, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn