Macross Frontier Episode 22 Talkback Thread *READ 1st Post*

[Cybergig1]

We've all seen Grace's Despair and Nightmares so,,,I guess its time to rip-off this post at animesuki.

So.... Hopes & Dreams VS. Despairs & Nightmares, anyone?

ah hahaha nice one can take it a step further with "real/all natural" vs "fake/cybernetically enhanced"

[wolfx]

Leave the spoilers for the "Frontier news" thread, that's what it's there for. (really, it should be renamed the spoilers and rumors thread)

Anyways--I just watched ep 3 again, and at Guillame's funeral, Ozma mentions to/warns Alto that there's no tombstone or funeral for SMS. So how was Klan sitting at Michel's grave? Continuity error, or was he considered a student/civilian still? ::edit:: Nevermind, just found it was already discussed. (it's hard to track the ep threads without being spoiled---I never watch the eps or read the thread until after I've seen subs)

In Ep 3 Luca tells Alto they must keep their SMS affliations secret due to "security reasons" though i'm not sure what that means. Probably wouldn't look good if word went about saying mercenaries hiring kids as soldiers, so yeah as far as everyone is concerned, Michel's a civvie. Wonder if he has parents and family though other than his sister? Did they mention he was an orphan?

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I figure Klan is kind of a decoy/spy---either going to sabotage NUNS, relay info to SMS, or try to convince Luca and Alto to rejoin---all while being publically loyal to the fleet.

I agree with that. She probably doesn't want to abandon them given their current mental state. Someone's got to hold the fort down. What was the answer to Michel's tombstone? I'm like you in that I don't enter the fray until after subs (heck until after I can't be entirely bittered by whatever messed up debate is going on ;. On second thought, looks like I missed Wolfx's post.

As amusing as that might be, can we please leave Asuki's stuff on Asuki?

Edited September 9, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[dreamweaver13]

This is the longest time i've spent without watching the latest episode. and MAN, was it worth the wait!! I just saw it, and man i all i can say is...

SHERYL FTW!!! good job alto, good job!!

obviously, i haven't had the time yet to backread this thread (and what a long thread it is already) so i have no idea what's been already said, but allow me just to say that this is one satisfying and fantastic episode, both on the dramatic and action levels. Such a sweet scene between alto and sheryl. and then cap it off with a dog fight that i didn't expect (and what a pleasant surprise it was!): alto vs. ozma!!

to see the mighty SMS broken apart like that is a fantastic plot turn, and i'm hanging on with anxious excitement for the whopper of an ending that's sure to come. all the pieces are in places, the stage has been set. GO MACROSS FRONTIER!!

EDIT: oh, and i'm not much of an expert on fashion, but IMHO, sheryl's black/blue outfit while singing northern cross is her best one yet.

Edited September 9, 2008 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

I figure Klan is kind of a decoy/spy---either going to sabotage NUNS, relay info to SMS, or try to convince Luca and Alto to rejoin---all while being publically loyal to the fleet.

But it's also possible she can't bear the thought of helping out Ranka. by now, she's the one with the greatest reason to hate the Vajra unconditionally. she must have decided to stay in the fleet, knowing that she would only get in the way of a peaceful resolution or a possible rescue of Ranka. Nevertheless, as a sign of respect and pride for the SMS, she showed up for a heartfelt salute to her former comrades.

[RedWolf]

Since V-type virus exist in real life in the GG sub Luca says it is caused by bacteria.

Now the bacteria would be the viral carriers.

Initially we thought Macross Zero and the Birdman because of the viral connection and Alpha Bombay blood type.

Now the bacteria could be similar to bacteria seen on Galactic Whales.

Why? Galactic Whales are fold capable creatures like Vajra.

The cure for Sheryl if she can't get it from Ranka is unfortunately at the rim of the galaxy.

The planet known as Zola.

Zolans are immune to the bacteria carried by the Galactic Whales.

Anybody who isn't immune on Zola like humans or Zentradi are in danger of dying if they are wounded.

The antibodies is in the Zolans. Not mention Sheryl may have to dip at the life regenerating hot springs of Zola.

Edited September 9, 2008 by RedWolf

[regult]

Not only the English fandom. Sheryl leads in Japanese polls too.

Pardom my ignorance then...I thought the Japanese audience still sticks to their adoration of uber-cute characters...

Still, this does not change my theory that Ranka has higher chances of surviving than Sheryl.

I actually care more about the Leon/Grace/SMS political intrigue. Obviously (and just like the Ranka-Brera relationship), there is sth obvious about the Vajra not being real enemies of Frontier. Still, 3 episodes seems an awful short time to wrap things up.

[wolfx]

Since V-type virus exist in real life in the GG sub Luca says it is caused by bacteria.

Now the bacteria would be the viral carriers.

Initially we thought Macross Zero and the Birdman because of the viral connection and Alpha Bombay blood type.

Now the bacteria could be similar to bacteria seen on Galactic Whales.

Why? Galactic Whales are fold capable creatures like Vajra.

The cure for Sheryl if she can't get it from Ranka is unfortunately at the rim of the galaxy.

The planet known as Zola.

Zolans are immune to the bacteria carried by the Galactic Whales.

Anybody who isn't immune on Zola like humans or Zentradi are in danger of dying if they are wounded.

The antibodies is in the Zolans. Not mention Sheryl may have to dip at the life regenerating hot springs of Zola.

I am abit confused about V-type virus as to its symptoms. I thought early on it was mentioned that humans cannot carry the disease or was it just Admiral Glass abating public fears with his press conference? And do space whales carry viruses? The subs on mine don't mention it.

This might be nothing but rambling but Zola has a ring of asteroids surrounding it....and Vajra planet has a ring of some stuff surrounding it. Coincidence?

[Keith]

I really don't see how you can say Ranka's the main girl, when Sheryl's gotten all the good Drama. Face it, Sheryl is the Misa of this series. And currently, she's also doubling as the pop idol since Ranka's gone awol.

[mike_s_6]

I really don't see how you can say Ranka's the main girl, when Sheryl's gotten all the good Drama. Face it, Sheryl is the Misa of this series. And currently, she's also doubling as the pop idol since Ranka's gone awol.

I can actually see how Ranka is the main girl. First of all, the love triangle was supposed to be AltoxRankaxBrera, but Kawamori thought it would be boring, so he brought Sheryl in (good call, because I think Brera as part of the main triangle would be boring as he is for me, disappointingly, not quite a stand out character). That given, Ranka's story is more polished and set in stone as compared to Sheryl's. I've always felt that when Ranka is not center of an episode, she still has significant action, whereas when it's Sheryl's turn to get to the shadows, you almost don't feel her anymore, save for a few shots here and there.

Though I have to agree, part of what made Sheryl so interesting was because she was indeed, brought in to spice up the story. Be it in her apparent arrogance, her recklessness, her sexiness, her edgy music, and the drama she had to go through, she's definitely gained the affection of many watchers (well probably not in Japan, but here and other English forums, and in Chinese forums). I really like her character, she's been developed dramatically well. What I'd hate to see is for the story to destroy her further than she is already now, there's got to be an end to it :c

[magnuskn]

I can actually see how Ranka is the main girl. First of all, the love triangle was supposed to be AltoxRankaxBrera, but Kawamori thought it would be boring, so he brought Sheryl in (good call, because I think Brera as part of the main triangle would be boring as he is for me, disappointingly, not quite a stand out character). That given, Ranka's story is more polished and set in stone as compared to Sheryl's. I've always felt that when Ranka is not center of an episode, she still has significant action, whereas when it's Sheryl's turn to get to the shadows, you almost don't feel her anymore, save for a few shots here and there.

Though I have to agree, part of what made Sheryl so interesting was because she was indeed, brought in to spice up the story. Be it in her apparent arrogance, her recklessness, her sexiness, her edgy music, and the drama she had to go through, she's definitely gained the affection of many watchers (well probably not in Japan, but here and other English forums, and in Chinese forums). I really like her character, she's been developed dramatically well. What I'd hate to see is for the story to destroy her further than she is already now, there's got to be an end to it :c

As far as I know, she has catched up in Japan as well.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I can actually see how Ranka is the main girl. First of all, the love triangle was supposed to be AltoxRankaxBrera, but Kawamori thought it would be boring, so he brought Sheryl in (good call, because I think Brera as part of the main triangle would be boring as he is for me, disappointingly, not quite a stand out character). That given, Ranka's story is more polished and set in stone as compared to Sheryl's. I've always felt that when Ranka is not center of an episode, she still has significant action, whereas when it's Sheryl's turn to get to the shadows, you almost don't feel her anymore, save for a few shots here and there.

This is something I've observed as well. Is there anywhere one can read more into this "original triangle" story. It can be fairly obvious at times that things were somewhat rewritten. I also think Sheryl's no Misa, and that the comparison is insulting to both characters.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[mike_s_6]

As far as I know, she has catched up in Japan as well.

Yeah I heard she caught up, but the margin is not like the margin we see here. They're like neck and neck.

Is there anywhere one can read more into this "original triangle" story.

I actually first read about it in this forum, but I can't seem to find it right now. I'm sure I'm searching for the right key words but it doesn't turn up. Most of the shippers know where this should have been posted though.

[magnuskn]

Yeah I heard she caught up, but the margin is not like the margin we see here. They're like neck and neck.

Thus seems to be the power of lolicon in Japan... but Sheryl already is giving as good as gets, even there!

[Mercurial Morpheus]

That and Ranka really is a good character. It's not just the "power of cute".

[magnuskn]

That and Ranka really is a good character. It's not just the "power of cute".

Ah, she has her good sides, she has her bad sides. Her bad sides were just much more prominent lately. And she doesn´t hold a light to Sheryl, of course.

[mike_s_6]

And she doesn´t hold a light to Sheryl, of course.

While I don't really see that much bad in Ranka, she really just doesn't stand out like Sheryl. Almost everything Sheryl has done starting from her downfall has been great. The scene where Alto hugged her in this episode was priceless, because I think that at that point, after showing that her love is selfless, she deserved it. She's kind of an optimistic example of how the worst tragedies can make the best out of a person.

Edited September 9, 2008 by mike_s_6

[RedWolf]

I am abit confused about V-type virus as to its symptoms. I thought early on it was mentioned that humans cannot carry the disease or was it just Admiral Glass abating public fears with his press conference? And do space whales carry viruses? The subs on mine don't mention it.

This might be nothing but rambling but Zola has a ring of asteroids surrounding it....and Vajra planet has a ring of some stuff surrounding it. Coincidence?

Space Whales carry bacteria that can kill anybody if they are not immune. If you're wounded on Zola your chances of surviving on the wild without treatment can kill you.

Zolans developed strong antiseptics for outsiders.

Though the hot spring connected to the whale graveyard does have healing properties.

On that note Leon may be willing to kill the goose if there is a Vajra graveyard on that planet.

[DeeBot]

just read some spoilers in wikipedia for up to episode 25.

so who will be

the one singing in the battle 25 stage? ala minmay in dyrl mode perhaps?

i mean, someone from the two will sing a song "not originally sung by the her"

like minmay singing ai oboete imasuka - which misa found the lyrics that fits perfectly with the existing mysterious musical score

Dead zombified Sheryl singing Aimo!

I figure Klan is kind of a decoy/spy---either going to sabotage NUNS, relay info to SMS, or try to convince Luca and Alto to rejoin---all while being publically loyal to the fleet.

I'm not sure if she's loyal to either side at this point. Maybe just doing her own thing. She did take Michel's loss pretty hard. It might be a bit soon to ask her to make a decision like this. Heck, does she even know yet what decision Luca and Alto ultimately made? Even Ozma seemed unsure right up to the moment SMS left dock.

I'm leaning toward dreamweaver13's interpretation personally.

Er....but they did it with SDF:M. Well, first they cut it short, but then when it became popular they wound up adding episodes.

I don't really buy the "Macross has always been _________" arguments I see in various places. As Radd pointed out, the final arc of the original series was added after the fact when the series was going to end at episode 27. We all know that story.

And the final arc was pretty obviously tacked on. The story and love triangle were essentially resolved, and then they drag it out for another 10 or so episodes. You can see all the seams where they had to abruptly backtrack to make it all work, mostly by making Hikaru a bigger idiot than usual. I still have to roll my eyes a little every time they stab a reset button in the post-climax episodes.

If the original series had ended at episode 27, nothing of storytelling value would have been lost. Hikaru would still have ended up with Misa, Space War I would have ended, Minmay would have her own separate path, etc. I thought the extra episodes were great (they're some of my favorites, though Kawamori apparently disagrees), but in terms of story, they add very little. The story basically goes in a big circle while we get some more character development and exposition.

In an ideal world, they wouldn't have tacked on those episodes. They would have always been planned for, neither cut or added back in. With Macross now being an established quantity, there's much less risk of episode counts being modified mid-series. They certainly haven't done anything like those post-climax episodes again, at least not as part of the main series.

To reiterate my original point, I don't think they're saving anything for a season 2. Frontier's story will be complete at the end of episode 25. They might do a spin-off or encore-style OAV (I might even wager that it's likely), but I believe the dramatic tension among the current cast will be resolved, leaving nothing to drive a second series. You'd be starting from scratch, at which point you might as well call it something else. They're not going to drag out the current plot lines for another 13 or 25 episodes just to explain every last unresolved question, or satisfy the fans who just want more Frontier, no matter what.

A Macross TV series has also never been as short as Frontier looks to be, so obviously things are different with this incarnation. If there was a second season and it ended up being about 50 episodes, it'd be the same length as M7, so would that make any difference to you?

Personally, I thought M7 dragged on way too long. Frontier isn't nearly so monster-of-the-week. It's budget is probably sky-high compared to M7, too; all that CGI can't be cheap. They need to keep the story short and sweet, by necessity; they really try to cram as much as they can in each episode, all without moving forward very much.

Edited September 9, 2008 by DeeBot

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Ah, she has her good sides, she has her bad sides. Her bad sides were just much more prominent lately. And she doesn´t hold a light to Sheryl, of course.

Same with Sheryl on the good and bad. I thoroughly disagree that her bad sides are prominent right now. As for Sheryl, I agree with what Mike_s_6 pointed out, most after her downfall was good. Ranka may not stand out as much, but she's still been a wonderfully developed character. The same can't always be said of Sheryl, particularly in the beginning, while they were busy reworking her into the show apparently, if what that interview says way true. Though she has improved. Let's not get into, shall we please. It's negatively impacted me enough, sort of coloring the recent good parts of Sheryl (ironic, isn't it, when things are getting better and all), and another couple of boards I've been on are acting rather asinine, so I'm in a bit of a sour mood, and don't need that affecting my views of Sheryl or Ranka.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Chronocidal]

Dead zombified Sheryl singing Aimo!

Or maybe hmmm.... as much as I'd like to hear Sheryl's version of that, just to throw everyone off, I wouldn't put it past Kawamori to have

Sheryl pass on the music/lyrics for Arkan to Ranka (on her deathbed for dramatic purposes of course). Think about it.. We know she knows some French, and we never actually heard the song Sheryl was originally recording for the M0 movie, since the director liked Aimo better. The retcon with the earrings in Zero makes a definite link there, and I don't think this is going to end without that being explained somehow.

However, if that happens, I'll eat my computer.

[Valkyrie addict]

Sheryl is a more believable character with a background and things people can identify with

Ranka is just a plain boring FAST pack, as person, Ranka is just cute, nothing more...too young, maybe an older Ranka with more character would make her more popular

[EXO]

I really don't see how you can say Ranka's the main girl, when Sheryl's gotten all the good Drama. Face it, Sheryl is the Misa of this series. And currently, she's also doubling as the pop idol since Ranka's gone awol.

Uhmmm... Minmay was the main girl even though Misa got the dude... check the Gold Book and Perfect Memory, which character to they always feature first? Also check 2012 to see which character was more prominently featured.

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

And it seems to me that Alto never liked Sheryl in that way... he's just warming to her now that she's dying.

[rubi]

Uhmmm... Minmay was the main girl even though Misa got the dude... check the Gold Book and Perfect Memory, which character to they always feature first? Also check 2012 to see which character was more prominently featured.

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

And it seems to me that Alto never liked Sheryl in that way... he's just warming to her now that she's dying.

My thought exactly.

[EXO]

I mean brother... I keep thinking Ozma's more of an Uncle.

[aerocombatpilot]

Uhmmm... Minmay was the main girl even though Misa got the dude... check the Gold Book and Perfect Memory, which character to they always feature first? Also check 2012 to see which character was more prominently featured.

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

And it seems to me that Alto never liked Sheryl in that way... he's just warming to her now that she's dying.

AAAMEN!!

[yaiba]

Sheryl is a more believable character with a background and things people can identify with

Ranka is just a plain boring FAST pack, as person, Ranka is just cute, nothing more...too young, maybe an older Ranka with more character would make her more popular

I don't agree that Sheryl is any more believable than Ranka, and have to completely disagree with Sheryl being someone more people can identify with.

I can see how Ranka can be seen as boring though. Everything comes too easily for her. She essentially attained overnight what Grace had been preparing Sheryl for, for 11 years.

[dreamweaver13]

Uhmmm... Minmay was the main girl even though Misa got the dude... check the Gold Book and Perfect Memory, which character to they always feature first? Also check 2012 to see which character was more prominently featured.

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

And it seems to me that Alto never liked Sheryl in that way... he's just warming to her now that she's dying.

i agree with the first paragraph. certainly minmay is the main girl in SDFM. And the same is true for Ranka (my clear preference for sheryl notwithstanding). But as with anything macross, we do know that the main girl doesn't necessarily get the guy at the end.

though i disagree with the second paragraph. with all the set-up (i.e. star date, similarities as entertainers, cpnstant bickering, emotional connection, and klanklan's persistent matchmaking), it's quite a stretch for me to think that alto's merely giving sheryl some sympathy, as opposed to having true feelings for her. Although, i have to admit, alto's character certainly is the type who doesn't fall in love quite easily. a far cry from the original "lover boy" Hikaru.

[Beltane70]

I don't agree that Sheryl is any more believable than Ranka, and have to completely disagree with Sheryl being someone more people can identify with.

I can see how Ranka can be seen as boring though. Everything comes too easily for her. She essentially attained overnight what Grace had been preparing Sheryl for, for 11 years.

Overnight success happens in the real world, too. Sure Ranka's fmae came quickly, but I'd hardly say that everything comes too easily for her.

[wolfx]

Uhmmm... Minmay was the main girl even though Misa got the dude... check the Gold Book and Perfect Memory, which character to they always feature first? Also check 2012 to see which character was more prominently featured.

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

And it seems to me that Alto never liked Sheryl in that way... he's just warming to her now that she's dying.

QFT. It does seem more of Ranka's story in which Sheryl is a main character. I hope we get to see an older Ranka Lee later with longer hair and taller physique and she takes after her inspiration, Sheryl Nome. (as shown on some fanart)

[dreamweaver13]

whew! ok, finally backread this thread. just some thoughts.

At the very least it's a setup leading to the final decision, similar to how other Macross couples had special moments leading to their decisive moments (Hikaru and Misa in the ruins, Shin and Sara during the sunrise). I wont be surprised if an event comes along in the final episodes where Alto makes a decision by reiterating his promise to Sheryl to stick with her to the very end.

you also mentioned a similarity with the DYRL scene in Hikaru's room (which i also felt). the resolution in ep22 is not yet complete (and some would even say it was merely out of pity). would have been complete if sheryl pushed her away because she doesn't want his pity, with alto persisting, and giving that "stay by my side" spiel. but, hey, i'm not complaining. that ep22 scene was awesome and perfect. i think you're right, the final resolution of the triangle might be a reiteration of alto's promise to stay by sheryl's side until the end.

now as to when that end will come... that right there's the mystery.

I think that Alto and Luca are now NUNS, because the Captain said that the SMS was being dissolved and replaced with the NUNS. Alto and Luca recieved the phone message, however they both choose to remain behind. I don't know if the message explained the entire situation, I don't think it did given the fact that during the combat scene neither Ozma or Alto mentions anything about it.

the thing is... alto was simply left behind because he didn't check his message fast enough!! haha.

seriously, i think he made a choice to stay. he would have been the ultimate as$ if he decided to go with SMS, right after promising sheryl that he'd stay with her. and to go after ranka, no less. ouch.

on the other hand, his decision to stay with NUNS also conflics with his earlier resolve (whoch he communicated with Luca) to bring back Ranka before Nanase woke up. but of course, that was before he had his "moment" with Sheryl.

All in all, i think he made the right decision to stay. after all, if not for that decision, we would not have seen the Alto-Ozma dogfight!! cool!

They did get the messages on their cellphones. Alto just turned his off when Sheryl woke up, then checked after their little scenes together. Klan also checked next to Michel's grave, and well I don't remember about Luca, but doubt he would care at this point. 70% of the SMS personal responded to the messages sent out, the other 30% stayed on frontier.

yup. alto can't leave sheryl behind. klan is too angry to attempt any rescue of a known vajra ally (ranka), and luca's to connected with Leon and LAI to leave.

Although, i suddenly remember Michael's paqrting words to Luca (you're part of a team, you don't have to go out on your own."). I wouldn't be surprised if that came up again later, and would be the rallying cry for the original SMS crew to unite.

I'm just surprised that Leon/NUNS let Alto and Luca fly in pursuit of SMS at all.

I would have grounded them until there'd been sufficient time to prove their loyalty, not let them fly after the Macross Quarter.

Heck for all Leon/NUNS knew they could just have been pretending to join NUNS and then flown off with their brand new VF-171EX to rejoin SMS.

And what's with Klan? She didn't go with SMS, but didn't seem to be with NUNS either.

Graham

well, leon does need to send out the best pilots, and alto and luca are it. Also, he might be theorizing that the former SMS would hesitate a bit more to attack alto and luca, their former comrades.

We've all seen Grace's Despair and Nightmares so,,,I guess its time to rip-off this post at animesuki.

So.... Hopes & Dreams VS. Despairs & Nightmares, anyone?

I'm a big sheryl fan, but just look at the way grace does it. no match. the master taught sheryl well, but not well enough.

[JustinStrife]

FIX'D.

Whatever the outcome, I really doubt that Ranka will be the dead one. Japan loves their moe characters. Its interesting to note that the Japanese fans prefer Ranka, compared to the english-speaking fans who prefer Sheryl.

Without a flashforward of 5-10 years, there's no way you're going to get an Alto x Ranka ending in 3 episodes. The stage has been built one way a little too long, and Ranka has not gotten enough connection with Alto to make this happen, this late in the game.

[mike_s_6]

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

If you define "drama" as having more plot and more people going around a person, then I can't argue with you. But if you define drama as the pain experienced by a person projected within the story, then there's no argument here - Sheryl takes the cake. (...BTW, I really can't define "drama" as having cool gadgets... what gadgets by the way?)

[shan]

And as far as I know Ranka has more drama than Sheryl, she's got 2 dudes, an uncle, a best friend, alien followers, cool gadgets and the whole background story on how she rose to fame.. The story is more centered around her than Alto himself.

And it seems to me that Alto never liked Sheryl in that way... he's just warming to her now that she's dying.

How many QFT reply did this post get? Here's another one. QFT. I don't think there's any surprises there since Ranka has been pretty prominent even in the early production notes, so the gist of the story will be on her side. Ranka is no doubt the main female lead. Ranka and Sheryl's part in the show is hardly equal. The recent staff interviews also questions Alto's actions towards Sheryl in 22, so I think you're on the mark.

[MisaForever]

Lunar's out!