Ranka Lee - Innocent naive teenager or Evil war criminal

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

So, wow, your argument is: Minmay was a horrible person, so who cares if Ranka is also one? blink.gif

So wow, you're saying that macross frontier characters should be held to a higher standard than ones from previous shows? Errrr why? Do yo realise everything bad about ranka is no more bad than other characters in every other macross show?

Every show has it's haters. I'm just pointing out all the same flaws in the other macross characters.

List of irresponsible people:

-Dyson deliberately acting like a jerk in macross plus just so he doesn't get promoted and have to go behind a desk and lose his ability to fly planes.

-Sara breaking her dad's rule and the dad predicting the end for their tribal secrets may be coming to a close because the whites have come to take blood samples as foretold. Sara allowed hers to be taken.

-Hikaru disobeying orders from misa.

-Max and Miriya coming up with the idea to not shoot the regult in a way that kills the alien pilots (max is doing her a favour but also endangering people since now he has to concentrate on only disabling the mecha not just surviving)

-Roy treating claudia special and then partying with other women. Gee don't see so many roy haters out there. What if you were claudia? Doesn't she have feelings?

-Global agreeing to put a civilian in danger by using the silly minmay attack which if it were real life would seem ridiculous and crazy, er just like ranka deciding she MUST do this. Even though she isn't a soldier and isn't part of the military having no business being in a warzone instead of in a shelter somewhere. Can you imagine what her family must be thinking? What ifthe plan fails?

So no don't try to make this out as me saying minmay is a horrible person when I never said that. They all have character flaws. Your hate of the characters is intentional and probably designed that way on purpose. Hating ranka is no different from you wanting to hate dyson for being reckless, or hikaru for disoberying orders from misa. The characters are bold. But they are not perfect. (this is why I hated Stick in Mospeada because he is very 2 dimensional. But it was done that way on purpose since he was not born on earth and doesn't understand that the inbit aren't the only ones guilty of war, humans kill other humans too. Not all problems were there because of the inbit but because there are also some humans acting like idiots against other humans. (like towns where you have corrupted people who help the bad guys instead of protecting the people - that wolf guy that was Stick's war hero. ....but.... your hate of a character is part of the overall story: if Stick knew his war hero was helping the inbit maybe he would not have acted the same way he did earlier in the show assuming that there aren't also people on his own race's side letting it happen and being irresponsible.

So I'm just saying give a ranka a break since to me she must know that "Oh poo I'm the queen of these things" and wants to protect the harmless ones on her side as much as humans/zentradi.

No different to Miriya feeling sorry for all the zentradi soldiers getting pwned by max and requesting that max please aim for an area on the mecha that doesn't result in killing them.

Miriya is no more a criminal than a humanitarian. If you fanboys are going to hate a character for one sin, then don't forget that some of the fan faves from past shows are also guilty of the same thing too.

You misunderstood. Yes, she did sing to be a singer, to bring happiness and essentially peace to the Macross citizenry under stressful times. But she inadvertently helps to end the war in the process when Exedol and Global figure out how to use culture shock. Any immaturity in Minmay completes how good a character she was. She only remains immature in her feelings for Hikaru at the end.

Hey wait a minute...It took 36 episodes and the death of kakizaki, death of Roy, and Kaifun slapping her around, as well as misa lecturing her on ep36 about why her singing is so crucual...for her to "wake up to her selfish ways" and "that's ok since minmay isn't annoying to me". But when ranka realises she must protect her own kind AND the dying humans on frontier (only 21 epsisodes in) it's bad?

The cyborg chic grace already mentions the bugs won't hurt the little queen right? She may know something she hasn't told everyone else which is revealed later. Sort of like how we hate Dyson's guts in macross plus because guld mentions that dyson is dangerous and we are hinted that '7 years ago' Dyson must have done something so horrible that it must have traumatised Myung to a point that now Guld feels overprotective over her enough to want to kill dyson. But then right at the last minute we learn it was guld who was the dangerous one who 'lost control'. The audience was tricked into believing that the "reckless cowboy and showoff and roughneck" is the one who is dangerous and not the calm guy.

Now what I'm saying is since Ranka holds so much mystery you got to be ready for some surprise:

Unlike minmay she is possibly more deep than we have been led to believe and tied in with a backstory for the bug and how the bug were being manipulated or something to soften them. Maybe if she confronts the leaders of the bugs she can convince them that all the attacks on the hives were by bad guys on the human's side and not ALL humans set out to attack hives to collect the little fold crystals, just a few greedy guys.

I know it's hard to sympathise with a bunch of bugs (especially because they are like monsters or something) but they have to protect their homes too right? How do we know they weren't being attacked first? We don't! At least with the zentradi we are shown that the SDF-1 fire the first shot, so the war began due to the ship's own "booby trap" defense prgrammed into it which was out of human control.

Just let ranka have a few more episodes before judging is what I'm saying. It's easy to hate dyson more than guld for acting so cold towards myung. But appearances can be deceiving. In the end Guld became a hero, Dyson's recklessness became his strong point, and yang's obsession with the idol allowed him to assist in defeating the AI because he scanned the ship for the brain. These characters: they all start out imperfect but the cirumstances for why they behave the way they do isn't 100% clear at the midway point of the story, and then you start realising it's not about perfection: they are where they need to be so that when in danger they all come together and forget their petty differences and help each other instead of fighting each other.

An example is myung pretending to be so successful at the beginning, "I've moved up in the world" but then confessing she is just used to feed emotions into the AI and nothing more. A mere tool who will be dumped once they use that new illegal chip thing to substitute for her) Audience is manipulated into thinking she is the sensible one and the two boys are immature.

I'm actually a supporter of no particular character. I don't know where people got the idea I give a crap about one character more than another. I'm just a fan of the show and enjoying the ride.

For all I care ranka was what in fact responsible for the deaths in galaxy sort of like sara being responsible for bringing down her tribe because of allowing herself to be anaylsed and needing shin to be the only one to understand her while others hate her guts. If Alto is the only one who truly understands Ranka (just like Shin was the only one who understood Sara) then my bet is he will sympathise with her for the rest of her life more, when the memory comes back. (and be more suitable match for alto than sheryl - sheryl had a good career and fanbase like alice holiday so she is more jaded but also headstrong and would survive better imo)

We all think Ranka lost her memory due to bug attack. But maybe she lost it due to bugs protecting her from human attacks because they want to abduct her and use her for experiments? Kinda like the hulk trying to be captured by the military for use under their control, but the hulk wanting to be left alone. Then she screamed and the bug destroyed the place thinking she was in grave danger? (in that situation, just like the automatic firing of the SDF-1 Main gun in SDF:M, it's nobody's fault)

Her memory comes back. Then she realises she was a clone created in some lab as a way to create Bug leaders to act as controllers for the bioweapons the companies were testing. A failsafe. Or something like that. She saw some dead humans and blamed herself when a bug attacked the whole ship, just like Sara almost destroyed earth with the Bird Mech in macross zero.

So please don't think I'm some ranka fanboy acting all defensive or anything. I'm more a nanase fan. I just think it's funny how people are so judgemental when the story hasn't even finished. Who cares what you feel about the character right now. Worry about that after the show ends. Like I say: look at gundam as a good example. You think Char is a bad guy (because he is fighting amuro in the beginning) but he is just using the bad guys who think they have control over him. So you end up realising he is more interesting and complex than what you first think. He is not evil despite being capable of killing innocent people for his lofty ambition of evolving humanity. (he reminds me of Magneto in the X-men. Just misguided)

Edited September 3, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[hobbes221]

So while not everyone can agree on Ranka vs Sheryl, we can all agree we like Macross F.

Well said.

All in all though I think that this has been a good thread so far and can't wait to see what people say when the last episode airs. (if the mods don't kick down the door and shut us down first )

[musouka]

For instance I resented that Sheryl carried off Alto to another planet when Alto promised to meet Ranka... I don't like Ranka, but I'm one for not standing up your dates...

I don't think that's really fair. Alto didn't have a "date" with Ranka, she invited him out and he asked Michel to be there and tell her he couldn't attend--which was selfish of him, but has nothing to do with Sheryl. He didn't tell her he'd be there and choose someone else.

Alto had a choice between three people in that episode, "Ranka", "his father", and "Sheryl". He chose Sheryl--she didn't steal him away from anyone--because she was the one who was most in touch with what he would really want for his birthday. Alto's father was more concerned with Alto carrying on his family name, and Ranka's initial gifts to Alto were tickets to her own concert and bad-tasting cookies. She more than made up for it by saving his ass later, but that just proves she wasn't really considering him at first. (and, again, to her credit she actually recognized this when she was discussing her gift with Sheryl earlier in the episode)

As for the rest of this topic, people really have an issue with understanding why people are dissatisfied with Ranka's current character arc? Really? I mean, I love Ranka and I'll make no bones about it, but part of the reason I love her is because she's flawed and fairly self-centered. In that respect, the answer to the question posed by the thread title is "innocent, naive teenager". But what you need to keep in mind that just because someone is innocent or naive doesn't mean they aren't frustrating to watch or don't make bad choices.

Ranka could have tried to gauge Alto's reaction to Ai-kun by actually telling him how they met in the park and what she thought concerning the nature of the Vajra. If Alto had responded negatively, she wouldn't have had to introduce Ai-kun at all. It's unfair of her to expect Alto to react any other way when something like that is dumped on him and he has no time to react.

It's understandable that she wouldn't want to sing, but let's keep in mind that Ozma came right out and asked her if she was okay with what Grace and Co had planned for her. She was surrounded by loving people that would have carried her away physically if need be at the beginning of her career if she had mentioned her misgivings. Even as far in episode 21, Alto was against the idea of Ranka using herself as bait--all she had to do was talk to him. In that respect, the reason she's in this painful situation to begin with is her own inability to foresee the potential consequences of her own choices. That has a mitigating factor on how much some people are willing to pity her.

Sheryl couldn't didn't know she was infected, and her choice was never between a "an accepting family" and "stardom". Sheryl is a victim of circumstance, Ranka, of bad choices. That's why Sheryl tends to get more pity, and why people say her situation is worse. Ranka had misgivings about what she was doing from the very beginning. She didn't want to abandon Elmo. She didn't like Grace's rewrite of Aimo. When Vajra died, she actually felt physical pain. Yet at no time did she ever try to make her voice heard.

Edited September 3, 2008 by musouka

[crescens]

Team Lauren and Team Heidi can both agree they like "The Hills".

im sorry but i cant hold it, this one is simply brilliant

[StrangeWill]

Did you watch the original Macross or DYRL? Zentradi saved the remaining Humans in the end...

Ranka being 1/4 Zentradi is pretty great actually...

Yes, hence the wink.

Though really you think saving a few thousand humans would be easily contrasted by killing like 8-10 billion, and making the planet a borderline wasteland.

[RF-26AAC]

I don't think that's really fair. Alto didn't have a "date" with Ranka, she invited him out and he asked Michel to be there and tell her he couldn't attend--which was selfish of him, but has nothing to do with Sheryl. He didn't tell her he'd be there and choose someone else.

Alto had a choice between three people in that episode, "Ranka", "his father", and "Sheryl". He chose Sheryl--she didn't steal him away from anyone--because she was the one who was most in touch with what he would really want for his birthday. Alto's father was more concerned with Alto carrying on his family name, and Ranka's initial gifts to Alto were tickets to her own concert and bad-tasting cookies. She more than made up for it by saving his ass later, but that just proves she wasn't really considering him at first. (and, again, to her credit she actually recognized this when she was discussing her gift with Sheryl earlier in the episode)

As for the rest of this topic, people really have an issue with understanding why people are dissatisfied with Ranka's current character arc? Really? I mean, I love Ranka and I'll make no bones about it, but part of the reason I love her is because she's flawed and fairly self-centered. In that respect, the answer to the question posed by the thread title is "innocent, naive teenager". But what you need to keep in mind that just because someone is innocent or naive doesn't mean they aren't frustrating to watch or don't make bad choices.

Ranka could have tried to gauge Alto's reaction to Ai-kun by actually telling him how they met in the park and what she thought concerning the nature of the Vajra. If Alto had responded negatively, she wouldn't have had to introduce Ai-kun at all. It's unfair of her to expect Alto to react any other way when something like that is dumped on him and he has no time to react.

It's understandable that she wouldn't want to sing, but let's keep in mind that Ozma came right out and asked her if she was okay with what Grace and Co had planned for her. She was surrounded by loving people that would have carried her away physically if need be at the beginning of her career if she had mentioned her misgivings. Even as far in episode 21, Alto was against the idea of Ranka using herself as bait--all she had to do was talk to him. In that respect, the reason she's in this painful situation to begin with is her own inability to foresee the potential consequences of her own choices. That has a mitigating factor on how much some people are willing to pity her.

Sheryl couldn't didn't know she was infected, and her choice was never between a "an accepting family" and "stardom". Sheryl is a victim of circumstance, Ranka, of bad choices. That's why Sheryl tends to get more pity, and why people say her situation is worse. Ranka had misgivings about what she was doing from the very beginning. She didn't want to abandon Elmo. She didn't like Grace's rewrite of Aimo. When Vajra died, she actually felt physical pain. Yet at no time did she ever try to make her voice heard.

best first post ever.

As I understood it I thought Alto had said he'd be there or something, but I did think giving someone tickets to go see you was a pretty sorry gift-- it'd be like giving someone a picture of you for their birthday.

Sheryl never told him what she had in store for his birthday but yeah given the choice to sortie or eat bad cookies in the park with the boss' sister, I'd sortie, too.

I never once thought Alto even considered seeing his father on his birthday (it was a non-option for him)...

But if I misunderstood, that's my problem.

Ranka is a victim very much of her own choices, but such is to be expected, she's a freakin' kid, she doesn't know any better. She's kinda been forced into the Britney Spears type of role, thrust into fame without any realworld knowledge or experience and has no idea what to do with it.

At the same time, Sheryl's in the same boat, but all her decisions were made for her, whereas Ranka has a choice-- some sliver of independence over Grace & co.

[hobbes221]

Welcome musouka and well done. I second what RF-26AAC said

best first post ever.

What a topic to start with!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It's understandable that she wouldn't want to sing, but let's keep in mind that Ozma came right out and asked her if she was okay with what Grace and Co had planned for her. She was surrounded by loving people that would have carried her away physically if need be at the beginning of her career if she had mentioned her misgivings. Even as far in episode 21, Alto was against the idea of Ranka using herself as bait--all she had to do was talk to him. In that respect, the reason she's in this painful situation to begin with is her own inability to foresee the potential consequences of her own choices. That has a mitigating factor on how much some people are willing to pity her.

She thought she was protecting humans by singing. Not worried about her personal safety. Willing to sacrifice herself if need be to protect the human hive.

....But... what about the innocent bugs like the pet she has who don't want to die because some humans want to extract them for crystals? Don't aliens have any say in the matter?

Dude think beyond just one character. Look at the bigger picture. It's not about who gets to date who, but on their purpose to sing. Just like how basara doesn't give a crap about responsibility to fanbase but on whether his music can make a lasting difference. Basara was annoying for taking 52 episodes to get his task done which admitedly saved the whole galaxy from space demons.

Ranka is going through her phase of "WTF is the purpose of all this?? "I'm sick of just singing for fans and being used as a tool by the military. I want to protect the eggs. I have bigger plans!"

Look at the big picuture. Who cares why fanboys think Ranka is just a little bit colder than Sheryl or more immature and so doesn't deserve to be happy? All Ranka was doing was making her dream of singing come true just as alto is getting his dream of being a pilot of a valkyrie because his mother liked 'real skies'. Now that they've got it, maybe we can see more on the bug aliens now? And to me if ranka is an alien herself with the glowing thing in the stomach, I'd like the story to move on to other things now ok?

Not just one character. This is why so many people didn't like macross 7 here due to the focus only on basara. They had heaps of time to develop other characters too. If macross 7 moved along at a faster pace people wouldn't have complained so much. As we get closer to the end, all the mystery will unravel. I like the pace of the series so far and I hope they don't just focus only on the relationships.

One of the reasons SDF:M is liked is partly because there is a lot of characters in it. DYRL was nice to watch but it only focused on the love triangle due to time constraints and so the enemies weren't realistic - they were converted to good guys instantaneously rather than gradually. Macross 7, went in the other extreme: took way too many episodes to get its message across. Macross frontier I think has just the right balance. We get the mech porn, the characters develop quicker, but unlike SDF:macross there isn't a huge slow period in the show to stretch it to 36 eps, or the repetition of the same thing happening over and over again like in macross 7.

BTW Basara didn't even choose who he wanted in the end of that. Maybe the same thing will happen with Alto? Sheryl imo is just the mature version of minmay from DYRL while Ranka is the younger minmay from SDF:M. Maybe Alto finds some other girl (or boy) and those two singers decide they have an important duty and serve a higher cause? (that would be Mac F unique twist "Sorry Gals, I'm Bisexual and haven't told anyone about it!")

Edited September 3, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[yaiba]

Ranka's initial gifts to Alto were tickets to her own concert and bad-tasting cookies... but that just proves she wasn't really considering him at first. (and, again, to her credit she actually recognized this when she was discussing her gift with Sheryl earlier in the episode)

She obviously didn't think it through, but the tickets were probably the highest money value items she had in her possession. Lot's of people think expensive gift = good gift, without bothering to think if its something the recipient would appreciate. I mean sure a new watch if fine and all, but what I really wanted was that Hasegawa limited release VF-1S Minmay Guard! Damn!

Edited September 3, 2008 by yaiba

[yaiba]

Maybe Alto finds some other girl and those two decide they have an important duty and serve a higher cause? (that would be Mac F unique twist)

Not content to sit on the sidelines, Grace swoops in and takes the prize in the triangle.

[musouka]

Ranka is a victim very much of her own choices, but such is to be expected, she's a freakin' kid, she doesn't know any better. She's kinda been forced into the Britney Spears type of role, thrust into fame without any realworld knowledge or experience and has no idea what to do with it.

My only issue with this is that the anime has shown that she had her doubts. Now, doing what she thought was right even at the cost of her own comfort is admirable, so I'm not saying that Ranka made the wrong decision with the information she had. However, part of maturity is seeing things through, no matter how hard it is. It wasn't all bad for Ranka, there were things about fame that she enjoyed, but when the call came for her to step up and push aside heartbreak for the sake of her friends, she wasn't able to do it until Sheryl slapped some sense into her. Being a professional is more than getting satisfaction from protecting your loved ones or enjoying the benefits of fame, it means you often have to do your job when you least feel like it.

It's like Sheryl trying to drag herself out of bed on Galia 4 to sing for the Zentradi--she put the subduing the conflict above her own comfort and needs. Sheryl has been singing longer, and has more experience, so I don't think we're supposed to hate Ranka because she's not on the same level, but Ranka's weakness in this regard isn't something to be admired. The way it comes across is that she wants to make and eat the cake, but balks at doing the dishes.

Dude think beyond just one character. Look at the bigger picture.

To be fair, this is a Ranka discussion thread, right? My only goal is to explain why people might be frustrated with her characterization. I don't think it has anything to do with the love triangle, but how she's been written in these last few episodes.

People have mentioned Nausicaa. 2ch has also picked up on this, but I think Anonymous over there said it best that the difference between Nausicaa and Ranka is that when you watch Nausicaa, you get a sense of her love for both sides of the "conflict". She loves the insects, but she also loves her Valley, and would mourn the loss of it terribly. This is not to say Ranka doesn't love her family and friends, only that Nausicaa tends to look at both sides of the equation and balances herself much more carefully than Ranka does.

Ranka wanting answers is a step in personal growth. She's no longer a scared little girl, hiding from the pain her memories could bring. But at the same time, it is a personal choice, not an unselfish one. Just like confessing to Alto was a good choice for herself, but also puts a burden on Alto, as she leaves the fleet before he can even discuss anything with her.

Edited September 3, 2008 by musouka

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Hell, maybe Grace has an interesting backstory too? Let the show reveal more on that.

Even Nora from macross zero had her thing: the scar on her body sort of like the Joker's scar on his face in The Dark Knight. Maybe she was into rough sex and one of the soldiers took it too far and now she joins the anti-un to get revenge for the scar they made which destroyed her modeling/porn career?

Similarly don't you want to know why Grace is doing these mean things? Kinda like an evil Max Headroom.

To be fair, this is a Ranka discussion thread, right? My only goal is to explain why people might be frustrated with her characterization. I don't think it has anything to do with the love triangle, but how she's been written in these last few episodes.

People have mentioned Nausicaa. 2ch has also picked up on this, but I think Anonymous over there said it best that the difference between Nausicaa and Ranka is that when you watch Nausicaa, you get a sense of her love for both sides of the "conflict". She loves the insects, but she also loves her Valley, and would mourn the loss of it terribly.

Ranka wanting answers is a step in personal growth. She's no longer a scared little girl, hiding from the pain her memories could bring. But at the same time, it is a personal choice, not an unselfish one. Just like confessing to Alto was a good choice for herself, but also puts a burden on Alto, as she leaves the fleet before he can even discuss anything with her.

Yeah ok but if you are going to point out why you hate someone, then ignore the flaws of the other characters, all you (not you in particular just the group that picks on one character without looking at others as well) are doing is just picking which parts you like to talk about and ignoring others. Even if the topic is about ranka, the point of having her be annoying and unlikble serves a purpose in the story. Just as hating dyson's behaviour serves a point in macross plus.

My question to the critics:

So young minmay in SDF:M can act selfish to Kaifun her manager who she relies on to look after her. But Ranka can't be selfish and irresponsible like all teens?

My answer to them is this:

Ranka = young minmay from SDF:M

Sheryl = mature grown up minmay from DYRL

Whatever reasons ranka is seen as bad can also be levelled at previous idols in the other shows. Although I'm not a big fan of ranka or sheryl myself, I just think the critics haven't been fair given we are 21 episodes in whereas in SDF:M minmay had 36 episodes to mature and listen to Kaifun and act like a grown woman.

The whole point I want to make is that you can't force someone to do something if they don't have their own reasons for doing it with conviction. So you need time for them to grow. Thus, Ranka is going through her period of "why should I sing, what grand purpose will it serve, and even if I am helping now, what about the long term?"

Just like Basara having to appear on time to please his fellow band members is a secondary priority to finding out if his music can affect the protodevlin. Ultimately what happened was he could merge the singing from the concert (being responsible to his fans who came to see him) with the singing towards the PD (culture shock tactics) to kill two birds with one stone.

But come on guys: you had 21 episodes on just the love triangle thing, now give us time to develop the villains, and aliens and mysterious guys. Ranka leaving gives us an opportunity to see what these bugs are about and what the thing on her stomach is about. Possibly everything they feel is transmitted through fold crystals and those feelings and emotions are received by her and this is why she instinctively knows the bugs can't be evil despite having killed people.

Just like you can't say that Char is evil in gundam just because he fights on the bad guys side. It's not as simple as that. Humans fought wars amongst themselves long before aliens ever arrived. But this is ignored because people are used to seeing the aliens as evil or good. Can't they be just like us humans but more powerful and have lived around longer so they see us as primitive and savage and so they justify killing us because they have a greater responsibility to stop the more barbaric races from expanding? (sort of like how the Bird Mecha thought it was doing the galaxy a favor by almost destroying earth)

What matters isn't who is right or wrong, who fired the first shot, or why you even fight, ..but whether you can prevent the war from escalating which only causes races to make themselves extinct as they get stronger and more defensive. (ie republic transforming itself into the evil empire seen in star wars) The monsters look scary, but so did the zentradi. That fear makes people act defensively. It could be that the monsters like peace and harmony but the Cyborg AI people are using them to kill humans. I think the guys who benefit by escalating the war are those who seek to profit from the deaths in some way. (just as the anti-un and UN were taking advantage of the mayan islanders to have control over the ancient technology - who cares about them? "Just give us access to that cool bird mech toy you have hidden around here!")

It took ages for us to see the ancient protoculture ruins in macross 7 to get the backstory of who the zentradi are. Because of the slow pace of the show. I just want macross F to be a bit faster-paced. So the origin story thing gets more time. Mylene being the bossy character of the show, and as annoying as she can be, actually served a purpose in the "grand scheme of things" because her mixed zentradi blood was proof that humans could solve the problem of wars up to that point, to be worthy enough by the PC reckoning of having free access to ancient records. So similarly with MacF we are going through that part of the story now with the bug mystery. What is their purpose for existence? What happened in Ranka past? Who were the mysterious messengers talking to ranka when she was trapped in that green bubble thingy? etc etc It's the Indiana Jones part of the story. We know that she is linked to the bug. We know the bugs respond to her songs. Now tell us something new.

Edited September 3, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Agent ONE]

...

Ranka being 1/4 Zentradi is pretty great actually...

Since this thread is rife with spoilers I will ask:

Ranka is varja, not Zentradi/Meltran.. Am I wrong? is there something I am missing?

[RF-26AAC]

Since this thread is rife with spoilers I will ask:

Ranka is varja, not Zentradi/Meltran.. Am I wrong? is there something I am missing?

She is one quarter zentran, the other quarter is Vajra, and the half is human.

[adrianop]

To each, his own. Personally, I think some people are commenting on character flaws/negatives of fictional characters way too much than is healthy. I agree with Final Vegeta 100%.

[dreamweaver13]

If you look closer, you can draw other parallels.

Nausicaa: Doroks maim a small Ohmu so that they can use it as bait to draw the main herd into smashing the Torumekians.

Macross F: Galaxy provokes the Vajra to attack Frontier.

Nausicaa: Nausicaa becomes soaked in blue Ohmu blood trying to protect the small Ohmu from going into a lake of acid.

Macross F: Mikhail becomes soaked in blue bug juice trying to protect Klan.

Nausicaa: Noble young princess has a mysterious way of communicating with giant bugs.

Macross F: Naive young idol has a mysterious way of communicating with giant bugs.

Nausicaa: Heroine has pet fox-squirrel

Macross F: Heroine has pet weird green three-eyed squirrel/Vajra larva

Nausicaa: Heroine on quest to get humanity to co-exist with the fukai and its inhabitants

Macross F: Heroine on quest to get humanity to co-exist with the Vajra

So we were right all along... she is a miyazaki reject!

although Nausicaa doesn't have a "mysterious" way of communicating with insects if i recall correctly. she just uses a whistle to calm them. and she just happened to sacrifice herself for the little ohmu. but in any case, i guess the analogy still works.

but i still maintain that nausicaa is way way WAY cooler!

[dreamweaver13]

For instance I resented that Sheryl carried off Alto to another planet when Alto promised to meet Ranka... I don't like Ranka, but I'm one for not standing up your dates...

And then, after standing her up, Ranka comes to save Alto's day.

Despite this, I still want Alto to hook up with Sheryl already.

Alto going to Gailia IV (or whatever) was selfish... regardless of Sheryl's motivation of wanting to give Alto a real sky.

The date-stealing was one of the things that really cemented my hatred for Minmay in SDFM. I hated her for taking Hayase's date and ruining things. Mucking about cluttering Hikaru's head when he's finally getting serious about Misa.

Thank god for DYRL. %*#^ you, Minmay. *sneer*

As for sheryl, i don't think she knew about alto and ranka meeting up. all she knows is that ranka wants to give tickets personally to alto. how could she possibly know that she hasn't given those tickets yet, or that ranka made plans to meet up with alto. maybe sheryl was a bit clueless not to put 2 and 2 together, but i don't think there was any malice on her part when she asked alto to go with her.

As for Minmay, well she thought that Hikaru had plans with just another friend (she even thought hikaru was seeing a guy, if the subs got it right). she didn't know it was a date. i put the blame squarely on Hikaru with this one. the least he could have said was "well.... i have a date."

come to think of it... alto was also kind of at fault when he asked michael to stand in for him. arg. these macross boys have all the luck, and yet they act like total jerks. where's the justice in that??

[yaiba]

So we were right all along... she is a miyazaki reject!

although Nausicaa doesn't have a "mysterious" way of communicating with insects if i recall correctly. she just uses a whistle to calm them. and she just happened to sacrifice herself for the little ohmu. but in any case, i guess the analogy still works.

but i still maintain that nausicaa is way way WAY cooler!

In the manga, Nausicaa does communicate with the Ohmu, and I believe in one instance she is able to calm a ushiabu in a well without the whistle. I agree with you that Ranka is certainly nowhere near Nausicaa as far as being heroic goes, but can Nausicaa pull off the kira pose?

[dreamweaver13]

In the manga, Nausicaa does communicate with the Ohmu, and I believe in one instance she is able to calm a ushiabu in a well without the whistle. I agree with you that Ranka is certainly nowhere near Nausicaa as far as being heroic goes, but can Nausicaa pull off the kira pose?

I'm betting that someone already has fanart of that somewhere, and that she can!!

Thanks for the heads-up on the manga version, by the way.

[Gubaba]

I felt it sounded like a general "You are all trolls!" to everybody who has problems with Rankas behaviour.

Um, yeah...I wrote the "Don't feed the trolls" line. I also, a few posts earlier, wrote this:

Most of the people who dislike Ranka (here and on other forums) seem pretty reasonable over all. But with some of them, there's a weird ferocity to the hate, as though ANY statement in support of Ranka is a vile insult. Again, seems bizarre to me, but who am I to deny them their fun?

Which I hope refutes your interpretation of my "troll" comment pretty neatly.

I have no problem with people who dislike Ranka. But the ones who say that commenters who like Ranka need rehab, or who resort to personal attacks instead of reasoned argument...they are trolls.

(Of course, I also said that anyone who voted negative on episode 20 was either stupid or an a**hole, so I guess I can't throw stones... )

Edited September 4, 2008 by Gubaba

[taksraven]

Um, yeah...I wrote the "Don't feed the trolls" line. I also, a few posts earlier, wrote this:

Which I hope refutes what your interpretation of my "troll" comment pretty neatly.

I have no problem with people who dislike Ranka. But the ones who say that commenters who like Ranka need rehab, or who resort to personal attacks instead of reasoned argument...they are trolls.

(Of course, I also said that anyone who voted negative on episode 20 was either stupid or an a**hole, so I guess I can't throw stones... )

I am not a big fan of the "troll" expression anyway, since it is mostly used as a derogatory expression by people just trying to get others to shut up. (I used to be called a troll quite a bit back in my usenet days)

Taksraven

(formerly known as The Insensitive Troll)

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Troll = someone who knows the argument being put forth is flawed and is wrong but keep repeating the argument to see if they can get a reaction that wastes the responders time. They don't believe what they type just want to have fun seeing people's reactions to see how many people they can annoy.

Feeding them makes them feel good because they can cause chaos and make the responder angry.

Of course those calling you a troll may mislabel you. That's the difference between two people having a discussion, and people who think you are not being serious and wasting their time but who don't know you are being serious. They are just misusing the term. If they call you a troll and you know you aren't trolling they might just be using the term to turn everyone against you because they don't want to debate/argue with you.

The best way to defeat troll. Make them bored by ignoring them. Since they ended up wasting their own free time they will eventually go someplace else if they can't bait people (or a whole community of people if we are talking large scale operation) into an angry response which they like because it gives them so much attention.

Edited September 4, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[bob joe mac]

I dont HATE ranka I just find her annoying like I find all cliche ONI-CHAN characters that seem to be in every modern anime or harem anime as a love interest. Just like I find alto irritating to as hes the clueless retard harem lead male cliche. Sheryl on the other hand started out like "Rival ranka has to overcome" cliche but has moved on and has been the only character in my opinion that HAS shown a significant change for me to actualy grow attached to her. So my problem isn't with ranka its with the majority of the show I find it very very very weak compared to every other macross production. I truly hope that this series ends with such a mind blowing ending that it will save it from being worse then macross II and have more depth then flashback 2012

[dreamweaver13]

I dont HATE ranka I just find her annoying like I find all cliche ONI-CHAN characters that seem to be in every modern anime or harem anime as a love interest. Just like I find alto irritating to as hes the clueless retard harem lead male cliche. Sheryl on the other hand started out like "Rival ranka has to overcome" cliche but has moved on and has been the only character in my opinion that HAS shown a significant change for me to actualy grow attached to her. So my problem isn't with ranka its with the majority of the show I find it very very very weak compared to every other macross production. I truly hope that this series ends with such a mind blowing ending that it will save it from being worse then macross II and have more depth then flashback 2012

Technically speaking, since Macross II is out of the timeline, Macross 2012 has more depth when it comes to canon information.

(I said technically speaking. Not a comment on the quality or story of Macross II!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well so far I am happy with the mech porn side. But story and character wise...meh. I find that robot anime has a lot of cliche of its own too.

Many people will complain "if they don't follow the forumla it's not macross like we all know" while on he other side of the table you have people saying each show has to add something original and new. Personally I'm kinda in the middle where I want the show to have great music, and interesting characters, but not be too drawn out or stretched just to please fans of the characters. You can have similar types of characters for fans of the old ones, but give them something to do and let them be relevent to the overall events that go on within the story.

Like if SDF:M had a sequel and told us of what happened on megaroad, and all they ever did was show hikaru and minmay and misa going through the triangle again but as older people, like an episode of the bold and the beautiful, I think I would yawn because it's just more of the same. Aged max and miria worked because they were popular, but you didn't really see max get into a valk until long in the show. He had nothing to do.

The introduction of bugs makes space more scary again. It's back to being a survival story like SDF:M. The rogue zentradi aren't a threat as much anymore.

Edited September 4, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I've been meaning to reply here, but am not sure how. It appears to be so easy to get burned in MF discussion.

For the show itself, I sort of have to agree. MF is an odd one for me. Never before have I so clearly enjoyed watching some only to reminisce about how flawed it is in the character department shortly after it's over. Which is odd because I watch shows for characters. I like the characters of MF, but i can't really say I'm all that attached to them yet, or at least, not as much as I should be. The show's doing something right, since I'm still watching it, and I even cried a few times in the recent episodes. I just can't pin what it is that's doing it. It's sort of like Code Geass R2, so messed up at times, yet still geniusly epic and awesome.

As for character debates, I agree with Final Vegeta and Gubaba that things have gotten out of hand, particularly in the Ranka bashing. Not that I agree with aimless Sheryl bashing either, but it's far less common, particularly since she's the fan favorite, for whatever reasons. I have no problem with character bashing in general, as many characters I love are hated (Mitsuki Hayase) and I've also hated insanely popular ones (TV Alucard), but only ones that, you know, are reasoned and make sense. The title of this thread alone is a great example of how messed up some perceptions can be. It's the use of sophisms and strawman that FV pointed out, and the theory that to support one character, one must bash the other that Mike_S brought up that irk me, and make discussion on the subject rather frustrating. It's ridiculous. If you're going to hate Ranka, or Sheryl even, do so becuase of what they are, not because they're not what you think they should be or that you have to view everything they do negatively . You don't like childish starting characters or think her leaving is bad, fine. Though also recognize that it's largely perception and opinion.

Also, don't criticize one for a trait that applies to the other. Nothing is more confusing than seeing people bash one character for having traits the other one supposedly doesn't have, even though they actually do. It's a bit too much black and white and the pot calling the kettle black. While i agree with Mike-S that celebrating the good in your favorite is great, ignoring her foibles to do so is not. If you're going to love them, love them, not some idealized version you bring up just because it makes it easier to trounce the other girl. I like Ranka, but will admit that she can be too shy, and little conclusion jumping, and maybe more immature than she should be. But i like her because she grows despite and beyond it. Maybe she can be annoying or selfish, but a lot of the complaints about her seem to come at the cost of recognizing that she tries to grow past them and do the right thing. A lot of people have hated her from the get go, so this talk of just now the Ranka hate begins, is a bunch of huey. Heck, i didn't like Ranka much in the beginning, and yet she's grown on me.

I like Sheryl, but I'll admit that she tends to be impulsive, and rather untruthful to herself, and I've never liked how underhanded so was early in the triangle. Yet these are qualities some either ignore, sanctify, or even like about her, so who am I to argue. I still find her past intriguing, and like her in her flawed state, and find her not nearly as strong as she's made out to be, and that kind of character appeals to me. I'm not going to act like she's this well written Goddess, nor am I going to let said poor writing keep me from enjoying her good moments. Though i do wish they'd done more in 19/20 with her. I'm also not going to say that Ranka isn't flawed either.

Both are pretty interesting characters, though not without their faults. In fact, ignoring the foibles and making Sheryl out like some Perfect Woman that always selfless and caring, or a total bitch that's all about her, while also being baldfaced lies, is just plain boring. The same as acting like everything Ranka does is selfish and reprehensible, or she's just naive and doesn't know any better is a lie and lame. A lot of the arguments against them are well argued, but a lot also tend to villanize one while sanctifying the other. They fully ignore the character development, or in some cases, when applicable, overstate it, and either does the character a great disservice, or gives them way more credit than due. The atmosphere it creates is one of, "you're either with us, or against us", and it makes a fan/non-fan of both rather anxious to voice an opinion. It's gotten to the point where I have to wait for a week to pass before discussing an episode.

Applause to LowVis on his troll piece.

MF is a good show, and a treat to watch, I just wish the core characters didn't relay so much on heavy reading into to fully appreciate. Ranka's probably the easiest, which is probably why I've enjoyed her development the most, with Alto a nice second. Shame Michel had a near pointless death.

As usual, take this with a grain of salt, as it's that time of night when I really don't have the want to post an airtight argument or state myself clearly.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Sulendil Ang]

To add my two cents into this topic...

You know, somehow, I can't help but agree with all those Ranka-haters' sentiment towards her, which strangely didn't even occur to me during the beginning of the series. In fact, if someone did bashed Ranka early in the series, I would dismiss them simply as just being an overzealous fan.

I think the main problem really started during the last 2 episodes, where Ranka failed to stop the Vajra. Just like those poor people inside Frontier's bunker, I couldn't but ask this: why can't see stop the attack, she should be the songstress of hope! And the reason she couldn't is just as simple as Alto (apparently) didn't love her. Somehow, that really soured my view towards her. Perhaps it's because of my personal view that 'great power comes great responsibility', and her action during the funeral just make it even worse.

To sum it up, I think the problem with Ranka, especially in the last episodes, is just like what Sherly said to her: she has the power that could stop the tragedy from happening (a power Sherly wish she had), but refuse/couldn't/can't do it because of relatively silly problem such as 'the boy I liked didn't like me'. (In other word, she didn't do her best to stop it) This doesn't mean that I'm going to support those trolls, but at least I can understand what makes them feels bad towards her.

[Gubaba]

To add my two cents into this topic...

You know, somehow, I can't help but agree with all those Ranka-haters' sentiment towards her, which strangely didn't even occur to me during the beginning of the series. In fact, if someone did bashed Ranka early in the series, I would dismiss them simply as just being an overzealous fan.

I think the main problem really started during the last 2 episodes, where Ranka failed to stop the Vajra. Just like those poor people inside Frontier's bunker, I couldn't but ask this: why can't see stop the attack, she should be the songstress of hope! And the reason she couldn't is just as simple as Alto (apparently) didn't love her. Somehow, that really soured my view towards her. Perhaps it's because of my personal view that 'great power comes great responsibility', and her action during the funeral just make it even worse.

To sum it up, I think the problem with Ranka, especially in the last episodes, is just like what Sherly said to her: she has the power that could stop the tragedy from happening (a power Sherly wish she had), but refuse/couldn't/can't do it because of relatively silly problem such as 'the boy I liked didn't like me'. (In other word, she didn't do her best to stop it) This doesn't mean that I'm going to support those trolls, but at least I can understand what makes them feels bad towards her.

Again, I view her leaving the ship at the end of 21 as her attempt to take matters into her own hands and stop the war herself...but I dunno. Perhaps I'm giving her too much credit.

Again, I assume we'll find out in a few hours...

[EXO]

You're trying to analyze a 16 year old girl that has memory problems, traumatic memory loss, tragedy stricken childhood with the fate of her world suddenly put on her shoulders. Her adoptive brother gives her a hard time singing but has no problems letting her work at a restaurant at 15.

What I don't get is how she gets to be queen when she's only a quarter Vajra. She's not queen of the Zentrans... that means some Zentran hooked up wih some dolled up crab with from some royalty lineage or something. Major galactic bestiality...

[Sulendil Ang]

Well, actually I don't have much issue about her leaving Frontier if compared, say, her refusal to sing in the funeral. Again, her action in episode 22 will either redeem her, or fan the hate flame even more. We shall see, we shall see...

[Radd]

Stuff.

I find your ideas intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I think the main problem really started during the last 2 episodes, where Ranka failed to stop the Vajra. Just like those poor people inside Frontier's bunker, I couldn't but ask this: why can't see stop the attack, she should be the songstress of hope! And the reason she couldn't is just as simple as Alto (apparently) didn't love her. Somehow, that really soured my view towards her. Perhaps it's because of my personal view that 'great power comes great responsibility', and her action during the funeral just make it even worse.

You don't think these are unreasonable standards to hold anyone to? Even Ranka was surprised when the Vajra attack only intensified. At that point she wasn't clear about what was happening.

At the funeral, Leon asking Ranka to sing after she'd already been through, and had personally lost (as far as she knew) so much, for a publicity stunt, it was in horribly bad taste and I find it difficult to understand how anyone could rationalize finding fault with Ranka in that. In the real world Leon's request would have been a career ending blunder for a public figure (assuming they had not staged a coup and held complete, unrestricted authority). Performances at somber and emotionally charged events such as that funeral service are arranged ahead of time, not thrust onto someone like that on the spur of the moment.

[Sulendil Ang]

You don't think these are unreasonable standards to hold anyone to? Even Ranka was surprised when the Vajra attack only intensified. At that point she wasn't clear about what was happening.

At the funeral, Leon asking Ranka to sing after she'd already been through, and had personally lost (as far as she knew) so much, for a publicity stunt, it was in horribly bad taste and I find it difficult to understand how anyone could rationalize finding fault with Ranka in that. In the real world Leon's request would have been a career ending blunder for a public figure (assuming they had not staged a coup and held complete, unrestricted authority). Performances at somber and emotionally charged events such as that funeral service are arranged ahead of time, not thrust onto someone like that on the spur of the moment.

I admit, I have very high standard to people, especially to those who hold great powers to influence events, such as in Ranka's case. Maybe I didn't make myself clear: My problem isn't that she couldn't stop the Vajra using her song, but her reluctant to do so when the situation needs her to. Don't forget, it takes a Sherly bitch slap before she even tried to sing. But just like most said, she's still a teenager with no single clue of how big her role she is within the Frontier society, so I don't really hates her as some do, I just wouldn't approve of what Ranka did during these important and difficult moments, and that she could do better than that.

[kensei]

What I don't get is how she gets to be queen when she's only a quarter Vajra. She's not queen of the Zentrans... that means some Zentran hooked up wih some dolled up crab with from some royalty lineage or something. Major galactic bestiality...

Well I certainly hope it's through genetic manipulation and not the birds and the bees method.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I find your ideas intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Nice Simpsons reference. That made my day.

I forgot to mention that I also agree with what you've said.

[yaiba]

You don't think these are unreasonable standards to hold anyone to? Even Ranka was surprised when the Vajra attack only intensified. At that point she wasn't clear about what was happening.

At the funeral, Leon asking Ranka to sing after she'd already been through, and had personally lost (as far as she knew) so much, for a publicity stunt, it was in horribly bad taste and I find it difficult to understand how anyone could rationalize finding fault with Ranka in that. In the real world Leon's request would have been a career ending blunder for a public figure (assuming they had not staged a coup and held complete, unrestricted authority). Performances at somber and emotionally charged events such as that funeral service are arranged ahead of time, not thrust onto someone like that on the spur of the moment.

I totally agree. She had no time to recover between the time she got socked in the gut by what she saw between Alto and Sheryl and the Vajra attack. Was the matter trivial? Perhaps, but certainly not to her. I certainly don't believe in coddling a diva, but if Michel and Alto had switched positions, you can bet they wouldn't have had this problem.

Ranka: Boo, hoo, I don't wanna sing!

Michel as Alto: Hey baby, you know it wasn't like that. I like you the best!

Ranka: Really? Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [sings Aimo]

Sheryl: ... [damn, I really wanted to slap her!]

The singing at the wake thing was totally off the cuff and weird as well. I don't see what she could have done. Let's face it, she does not have any appropriate songs in her repetoir.