Ranka Lee - Innocent naive teenager or Evil war criminal

[magnuskn]

I don't think it's hypocritical, perhaps ironic. No one said "People who dislike Ranka are trolls" (faulty generalization) - just that people who dislike Ranka to the point of trying to denigrate every single thing she does, even if it's an innocent mistake or if it doesn't look heroic enough or something else, are just being negative. When I saw this person in another forum doing the same thing with Sheryl I also disliked it, every single action of hers was imputed a meaning that was completely anti-Sheryl and pro-Ranka! I'd hate to be in discussions like that, even if people are doing it to defend my personal choice of favorite character.

Some people have the idea that in order to elevate the perception of their favorite character, they have to always think and talk negative of her rival. This shouldn't be the case. To elevate the perception of your favorite character... we should discuss what's good about her.

First off, if you read the thread, there is at least one "Don´t feed the trolls" in here, so, yeah, we have been called trolls, kthnx.

Now, mike, you have been on the Suki forums for a long time, so you should know that we discuss the pros of Sheryl a lot there, too. A lot of the early talk about Ranka there was in the context of the triangle, and I don´t remember her being disliked so much over there. It was just a lot of certainity that Sheryl would win Alto in the end.

That Ranka is pretty self-centered can quite easily be discerned by the midst of the series. The whole "I hate Ranka!" trend has started with the last three episodes, where a lot of people began to see her actions to be actively harmful to her friends and the populace of Frontier.

It remains to be seen if her last action turns out to be good for Frontier ( most likely ), but if you look at it logically, it seems to be a longshot to expect a.) to take Ai-kun to the Vajra and expect to leave again unharmed ( which, according to *her* is what the journey is all about ) and b.) that Frontier won´t get destroyed during her absence by constant Vajra attacks.

Edited September 3, 2008 by magnuskn

[mike_s_6]

First off, if you read the thread, there is at least one "Don´t feed the trolls" in here, so, yeah, we have been called trolls, kthnx.

Now, mike, you have been on the Suki forums for a long time, so you should know that we discuss the pros of Sheryl a lot there, too. A lot of the early talk about Ranka there was in the context of the triangle, and I don´t remember her being disliked so much over there. It was just a lot of certainity that Sheryl would win Alto in the end.

The "Don't feed the trolls" is a call for both Ranka and Sheryl haters, as how I felt it. If you dislike Ranka but don't go overboard, like calling people names and just being negative every time a praise for "Ranka" comes up, I couldn't see how that phrase could be directed to you. Or if you debate with that person's praise for Ranka but do it in a civil fashion, then it can't refer to you either. Honestly you don't sound like a troll to me.

I love it more when the Suki forums are going overboard in cheering for their chosen character/pairing, like the "Go Queen Sheryl (put gar image of Sheryl in a dominatrix attire here)" but avoided when it went nasty. Name calling, all caps here and there, refusing to talk about evidence, you know. I'm not saying that people aren't being positive, just that we should try to avoid being too negative altogether

[magnuskn]

The "Don't feed the trolls" is a call for both Ranka and Sheryl haters, as how I felt it. If you dislike Ranka but don't go overboard, like calling people names and just being negative every time a praise for "Ranka" comes up, I couldn't see how that phrase could be directed to you. Or if you debate with that person's praise for Ranka but do it in a civil fashion, then it can't refer to you either. Honestly you don't sound like a troll to me.

I felt it sounded like a general "You are all trolls!" to everybody who has problems with Rankas behaviour.

I love it more when the Suki forums are going overboard in cheering for their chosen character/pairing, like the "Go Queen Sheryl (put gar image of Sheryl in a dominatrix attire here)" but avoided when it went nasty. Name calling, all caps here and there, refusing to talk about evidence, you know. I'm not saying that people aren't being positive, just that we should try to avoid being too negative altogether

Well, I call shenanigans on the Sheryl shippers going all caps and refusing to talk about evidence. I feel that we have the better and more detailed analysts on our side, and the people with poor grammatics seem to be located a bit more on the Ranka side. That´s Suki, however, in other places there are Ranka shippers who know their English and their arguments better.

That all has no bearing on the topic of this thread, however. ^^

[Nexx Stalker]

And it has been only for the last two or three episodes that my feelings went from "I like her, but I´d wish she´d let Sheryl and Alto do their thing" to "God, can she think about anything but her own perspective for a fricking minute?".

I couldn't have said it better. The last two episodes have made the last remnants of simpathy I felt for her character disappear.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ranka's a tool and weapon for and against the Vajra, while Minmay sang to bring peace only.

No she didn't. She sang because it was her dream to be a singer. Not to end war. That was global's and Exedol's idea. Geez you guys need to go back and watch SDF:M just to see how immature minmay actually was. This is why Hikaru bitch-slapped her in DYRL.

My response to those quoted comments in the link:

She refused a request by her nation to sing for the fallen. The heartbreak comes from her very lack of ill intent as she does so.

As of right now, Ranka is a girl that has broken my heart one time too often. I no longer feel grief at her foibles, but neither do I feel pride at her accomplishments. Hate would be an improvement, it would mean she has the ability to move me to feeling, and my feelings could yet change. Ranka’s actions this episode could lead to the slavation of Frontier and my response will be a resounding “…Eh”. I’m simply no longer emotionally invested in her at all. I’m more interested in Brera, here.

She felt sad like minmay felt sad when kaifun forced her to sing at a concert when she wasn't in the mood to sing despite fans wanting to here her and her needing to act professionally.

Honestly, if you don't feel like singing, why sing? If it's not sincere, the lyrics the words are empty. Alice Holiday from macross 7 felt the same way: she lost her drive to keep doing it because it's now a duty to sing, not because she feels like doing it spontaneously and naturally.

It's unprofessional, but remember that music has a magical effect in macross where if the singer's intent isn't aligned the lyrics sung, then the effect of the song isn't there. Why not just listen to a CD recording instead of going to a live concert?

Ranka didn't feel up to it at the time so like minmay she acted immature like minmay did when she told kaifun: "I don't feel like it! nyah!"

I love how the Ranka shippers keep giving her a free pass on everything she does. They have absolutely NO concept about responsibility. None, zero, zilch. Thousands of people died in the latest attack, including a friend, her best friend is injured, her acting brother is missing, and she can’t sing for the dead at their funeral? All she could do, was cry,”why me, why me?”. Yeah, we wonder why you were chosen too.

Minmay does the exact same thing in DYRL. Why should I sing those lyrics that the old lady gave you? Wah wah wah! Do some research into the older macross noobs.

Another thing that chaps my hide, these same people(ani_d, BleachOD, diva, and others), don’t take into account, that the characters don’t KNOW what we know. Ranka doesn’t know she’s being used by Leon and Grace. Alto doesn’t know that Ai-kun isn’t like the other Vajra, and that they too are being used by Galaxy. Alto and Ranka don’t know Sheryl is dying. There’s so many things they don’t know. Yet you act like they do.

Ranka didn’t leave Frontier for the good of the fleet or the people. She left because she A) wants to bring Ai-kun back to his own kind, B) Wants to learn more about her own past, and C) heart-broken that Alto hasn’t returned her feelings.

She’s the main weapon they have against the Vajra, and she is taking away the best fighter with her(Brera), and tried to take Alto away(one of the best). What if she came back from her soul searching, and Frontier was wiped out? Would she give a crap then? She certainly hasn’t shown empathy towards people through 21 episodes. Unless it suits her interest.

This is why Sheryl is a better match for Alto. She understands other people, can relate, and puts them above her own needs and wants. She puts herself in other peoples’ shoes as best as she can. Ranka, can’t see their perspectives to save her life.

Minmay also does this. Minmay didn't give a poo about hikaru every day fighting while she was out partying and having fun with her fans. Even though the whole reason hikaru chose to join the military was to impress her so that roy wouldn't steal her attention.

Kaifun also has to tell minmay about how the zentradi giants came to listen to her. How she should stop acting like a child and that she has responsbility. I don't see how you can hate ranka for being herself: young and innocent and still unsure of what choice to make. (ie go with hikaru and live a quiet life waiting for him at home, or continue being a famous star and taking repsonsibility)

I believe the fandom would cut Ranka some slack if she had understood the grave seriousness of her situation and the choices she made that went with it. If she went…

“I know my decision is going to affect a lot of people, I know it’s the worst time for this to happen, but I have to go, I need to find out about my past.”

Unfortunately, she didn’t.

It’s good that she stumbled on the right path, but at what cost? This area is so gray, but if she had shown any awareness of what the consequences might bring to her actions instead of focusing on herself and running away from the responsibility that she chose to accept before as the Songstress of Hope, then perhaps everyone won’t be so frustrated and angry with her one-track mind and inability to see the bigger picture around her.

Ranka is basically at the situation where Minmei is.

But the whole songstress of hope thing won't make a difference if it's just being used as a tool for slaughter. She is smart enough to see the aliens are in pain as well when they get slaughtered.

Oh I forgot because you are a human, and the war is shown from the humans' point of view, you only want to see the humans pain! Ahh.... So easy to turn off your feelings like a light switch.

The aliens attack because they are forced to defend a hive or whatever. Just like the human soliders fight to defend their home. Zentradi were once the bad guys too you know? Maybe Ranka sees beyond the BS (her need to sympathise with both species instead of choosing one) unlike all the other 'mature' characters? Think about it.

1) She’s said she doesn’t want to sing anymore as a tool. That’s perfectly fine and dandy - that’s understandable. However, she’s also running out on Frontier AND HER CAREER, which she thought of as quite important at one point. And in doing so, she’s probably killed what career she had as a singer, because it’s not very important to her at this moment, not caring for what the consequences to it are, or whether she’ll want to return to singing as a livelihood in the future. Even Minmay, who ran out on Kaifun, made a point of returning that evening to do the club show she’d been scheduled for.

Returning the alien back to it's home shows her compassionate side. If she said kill the dirty baby alien so I can continue my career that would have made her a real bitch. Like basara helping to kill space whales because they look dangerous and menacing on the outside to some people.

SK wants to paint the aliens as like space whales or "the forest" so they are as equally important as saving humans. Who gives a crap about some screaming fanboys when you can save an animal? I mean didn't basara do this? He just comes to all the gigs late not caring about the fame or his other members of the band, but instead worrying if the songs have some bigger purpose? In the end the music brought about the change despite the lack of order in his life.

2) She was screaming along with Alto last episode when Mikhail took the tail-spike in the back. This episode, we don’t even see her mope a bit whereas even ever-cheerful Luca is emo. Instead, she’s asking Alto to leave with her and let bygones be bygones with the Vajra. She doesn’t care about the dead, or apparently so - you’d think she’d have made an apology to them and said that she couldn’t sing right now because of how she felt… or tried to pull a Sheryl and done so anyways since this wasn’t singing to lure the Vajra in, but rather a paean for the dead. She could’ve used quite a few justifications for why she didn’t sing… other than ‘I don’t want to’. Guess which one she used? I can feel your sympathy from here… ooops, forgot the sarcasm flag.

This kinda reminds me of SDF:M when global is supposed to give a speech and instead leaves to deal with the matter of the alien ship detected. Again get your priorities straight. Killing aliens isn't the solution to saving yourself since they adapt to weapons. Just as Misa realised that killing the giants wasn't an option because they had millions of the ships which could easily wipe out the earth. Maybe Ranka has a plan to demonstrate she feels sorry for all the bugs that are getting killed rather than letting humans kill the bug children which she has one as a pet. Again it goes back to the idea that might doesn't equal right. Otherwise the PC would still be here and all that instead of extinct. Humans are fighting from a position of weakness imo. Bugs keep evolving and getting stronger the longer you fight against them due to how they adapt. Just like how the inbit in mospeada were slowly getting better with new upgrades.

3) She’s always wanted to see Alto at her convenience. She was unhappy about not knowing about his past… and only in Episode 21, eleven episodes after she found out about his past as an actor, does she ask a personal question. She had all that time to get to know him, know about him, know his likes and dislikes. To find out who he really was, beyond that image of the pretty pilot who encouraged her and teased her. To find things she shared in common with him, to use to connect to him beyond the hero-worship she’s always had for him.

Hikaru did that to misa in SDF:M. Made a date to meet with misa, and stood her up. She waited for hours for him. Then he remembered the date at the last minute.

Same thing with minmay's birthday present. "Where's my present?" Hikaru was such a cold bastard for not remember her birthday because he loves to fly around so much.

Overall Summary:

Come on stop being a whiney bitch and just enjoy the show. All the flaws you see in ranka are flaws of the characters in previous macross shows. If they were perfect you wouldn't have any drama. Alto himself is pretty selfish too. His dad was sick and he didn't want to visit the old guy. Roy was drunken playboy cheating on claudia. Misa has no life outside her job. Minmay is a selfish brat who didn't care about kakizaki's death. etc etc

And to the guy who said he wishes they both die: well that kinda happened to the characters in SDF:M anyway after flashback when the megaroad was never heard of again. lol Maybe the three main characters will end up disappearing forever like Hikaru, misa, and minmay eventually.

Edited September 3, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[magnuskn]

So, wow, your argument is: Minmay was a horrible person, so who cares if Ranka is also one?

[grss1982]

Overall Summary:

Come on stop being a whiney bitch and just enjoy the show. All the flaws you see in ranka are flaws of the characters in previous macross shows. If they were perfect you wouldn't have any drama. Alto himself is pretty selfish too. His dad was sick and he didn't want to visit the old guy. Roy was drunken playboy cheating on claudia. Misa has no life outside her job. Minmay is a selfish brat who didn't care about kakizaki's death. etc etc

And to the guy who said he wishes they both die: well that kinda happened to the characters in SDF:M anyway after flashback when the megaroad was never heard of again. lol Maybe the three main characters will end up disappearing forever like Hikaru, misa, and minmay eventually.

Just curious......was'nt the whole "your father is sick" just a ploy by Alto's older brother to get him to go home?

BTW...for those berating AND defending Ranka would'nt all those arguments just get thrown out the window when its revealed later on that Brera's actions in taking away Ranka from Frontier was just Grace's plan? BTW....I'm just asking no need to draw your gunpods and blast me to bits for asking.

Edited September 3, 2008 by grss1982

[magnuskn]

Just curious......was'nt the whole "your father is sick" just a ploy by Alto's older brother to get him to go home?

Yeah, it was. ^^

BTW...for those berating AND defending Ranka would'nt all those arguments just get thrown out the window when its revealed later on that Brera's actions in taking away Ranka from Frontier was just Grace's plan? BTW....I'm just asking no need to draw your gunpods and blast me to bits for asking.

How so? It was still Rankas idea to go and bring Ai-kun back.

[Radd]

So, wow, your argument is: Minmay was a horrible person, so who cares if Ranka is also one?

He was pointing out the faulty logic of declaring Minmay a saint and Ranka some sort of sociopathic puppy-murderer.

[grss1982]

Yeah, it was. ^^

How so? It was still Rankas idea to go and bring Ai-kun back.

Hey, you just made me realize this would be a win for the Ranka haters IF Brera's actions in taking away Ranka from Frontier was Grace's machinations.

Edited September 3, 2008 by grss1982

[sketchley]

In response to the title - a war criminal is almost always a member of the losing side of a war, as judged by the winners of the war.

Therefore, the question is: who's going to win the war? If NUNS does, then she'll be a hero. If the Vajra do, then she'll most likely be killed along with everyone else and treated just like everyone else. If it becomes a compromise (this is Macross. Compromises aren't new, and my moneys's are on this), then past sins will have to be forgotten, as members of both sides are guilty.

[magnuskn]

He was pointing out the faulty logic of declaring Minmay a saint and Ranka some sort of sociopathic puppy-murderer.

Which of course assumes that anyone would declare Minmay a saint. Which I wouldn´t.

[Radd]

I really shouldn't need to point this out, but he was replying to someone whose argument he'd quoted.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Radd

[magnuskn]

I really shouldn't need to point this out, but he was replying to someone whose argument he'd quoted.

And he multi-quoted several posts, referring to the Minmay argument several times. So it seemed to be a more general comparison. Ah, who cares, it´s pretty OT to the topic anyway...

[Bri]

I don't think the Ranka hate has much to do with the Sheryl/ Alto triangle. Sheryl seems to have the upper hand at the moment anyway.

The traitor argument generates quite a bit of hate, although I don't agree with it. Ai-kun may be a Varija but as an individual he/she/it (no clue there) hasn't done anything wrong so Ranka standing up for her friend seems to make sense. In episode 21 Ranka made her first pro-active decisions: no more singing with the implied argument she is tired of being used and returning Ai-kun to his own kind implying that she wants to make contact with the Variija. Minmay for example never reached that stage, she was always pushed by others to do something. Ranka was not tactfull stating her decisions but they are hardly evil.

As for Rankas duty to sing. Her singing has a power that can be used in the fight with the Varija but she is doubting the reasons for that conflict. Is she a traitor for no longer wanting to sing to help defeat the Varija? Or is she a patriot for not fighting/singing in a war she thinks is wrong? I can see the controversy here, as judging her action lies close to the views a person holds on the subject and that debate can get quite heated.

[Tricky]

No she didn't. She sang because it was her dream to be a singer. Not to end war. That was global's and Exedol's idea. Geez you guys need to go back and watch SDF:M just to see how immature minmay actually was.

You misunderstood. Yes, she did sing to be a singer, to bring happiness and essentially peace to the Macross citizenry under stressful times. But she inadvertently helps to end the war in the process when Exedol and Global figure out how to use culture shock. Any immaturity in Minmay completes how good a character she was. She only remains immature in her feelings for Hikaru at the end.

Well...about Mylene, people also called her the new incarnation of Minmay. And what made Fire Bomber hit the big time? Mylene singing "My Boyfriend's a Pilot" in The Lynn Minmay Story. Hell, Mylene even recorded an entire ALBUM of Minmay songs! (I know, I know...it wasn't in the show.)

Yeah you're right. Mylene and Basara did do the Lynn Minmay Story, but at least Mylene recognized who Minmay was first. It was more of a tribute, just like the Minmay song album, which I have no problem with. But eventually Firebomber prove themselves when the producers of the Lynn Minmay Story use war footage of Basara and Mylene singing to repel the Protodevilin forces. Firebomber soon establishes itself away from Minmay, based on actual footage of themselves, and not of any movie or story. That was the point of the episode, IMO.

Ranka outright sings My Boyfriend is a Pilot in or after the Ms. Macross contest in an uncharismatic story.

So just because she knows she wants Alto, that means she has no identity of her own? I don't get it.

Yeah, pretty much. Ranka is a girl who's trying to find out who she is. If she discovers shes the Queen Vajra, she'll discover apart of who she really is.

[magnuskn]

The traitor argument generates quite a bit of hate, although I don't agree with it. Ai-kun may be a Varija but as an individual he/she/it (no clue there) hasn't done anything wrong so Ranka standing up for her friend seems to make sense. In episode 21 Ranka made her first pro-active decisions: no more singing with the implied argument she is tired of being used and returning Ai-kun to his own kind implying that she wants to make contact with the Variija. Minmay for example never reached that stage, she was always pushed by others to do something. Ranka was not tactfull stating her decisions but they are hardly evil.

I think it depends largely on how much "personality" you assign Ai-kun. If he can be counted as an individual, then Ranka had the right to tell Alto that Ai-kun hadn´t done anything. If he wouldn´t be counted as such, because he´s a brainless bug who is only guided by the feelings and wishes of his queen, then Alto can´t be faulted as such. After all, Ai-kuns final form would be a red lobster, and his current form is pretty deadly already ( it can shoot explody energy beams and has other more melee-like attacks ).

At this point Ai-kun seems to be pretty intelligent from what we´ve seen otherwise from the Vajra. Maybe he is super-intelligent because he got Ranka-love, or maybe Ranka is simply subconciously guiding his actions. ^^

Edited September 3, 2008 by magnuskn

[Radd]

Regardless of whether or not Ai-kun is an individual, or part of a hive mind, it's been made abundantly clear that Grace and those she's working with are pulling the strings, tricking both the Vajra and Frontier into fighting. We know this, it has been explicitly stated. If he is just a part of the Vajra hive-mind, then that makes it even more clear that the Vajra are trying to communicate. It is unreasonable for anyone who has followed the story this far to believe that the it would be a good outcome for humanity to wipe out the Vajra.

Knowing this, it makes not one ounce of logical sense for anyone to call Ranka a traitor for attempting to bridge that gap. The alternative is either endless fighting, or Frontier's defeat being used to egg the rest of humanity into war with the Vajra. Grace's victory, either way it would seem.

[crescens]

It's time for me i guess... I won't try to hide im Ranka fan. I cheer for her cause she's simply ( as some ppl said ) pure and innocent. I find annoying Sheryl's methods of flirting with Alto, though i don't see a reason to flame on her. Damn, i think some ppl need to get over one thing... Not we're writing that story, it was already written by someone else, so please damn, accept the facts the way they are and enjoy Macross F. If you feel like got too much energy, don't waste it on flaming, go ride a bike or make sex with your girlfriend.

LMAO

next...

I don't consider Ranka as a war criminal, cause simply taking care of Ai-kun had nothing to do with killing ppl / helping Vajra. She was compared to Nausicaa in this topic and its a good comparision. IF Ranka do something bad ( seriously, i got a big tuncoat on my mind ) due to her memory flashbacks, in next episodes i'll give it a deeper thought, but for now i dont see a reason. Kinda "epically failing" topic. ;p

Edited September 3, 2008 by crescens

[RF-26AAC]

I think it depends largely on how much "personality" you assign Ai-kun. If he can be counted as an individual, then Ranka had the right to tell Alto that Ai-kun hadn´t done anything. If he wouldn´t be counted as such, because he´s a brainless bug who is only guided by the feelings and wishes of his queen, then Alto can´t be faulted as such. After all, Ai-kuns final form would be a red lobster, and his current form is pretty deadly already ( it can shoot explody energy beams and has other more melee-like attacks ).

At this point Ai-kun seems to be pretty intelligent from what we´ve seen otherwise from the Vajra. Maybe he is super-intelligent because he got Ranka-love, or maybe Ranka is simply subconciously guiding his actions. ^^

I think Ai-kun remaining green (other than color for differentiation's sake) has to do with queen loyalty.

Unlike other Vajra, I happen to think Ai-kun is about as smart as a puppy.

Which is probably smarter than most Vajra drones.

This has a lot to do with how the Ai-kun larva was cared for and loved and snuggled and all puppies and rainbows and whatnot, and there's also the queen factor.

Ai-kun is the first Vajra completely devoted to Ranka (as his queen) and obeys her before the other queen, the color difference also indicating loyalty to a different hivequeen than other Vajra.

When the other Vajra were commanded to attack, Ai-kun simply hid because Ranka was doing the same. More or less Ai-kun seems pretty peaceful, surprisingly.

Though I wouldn't want to be around if Ai-kun perceived someone as an imminent threat to Ranka...

Ranka is not a traitor or war-criminal but she is driven by some other idea that by returning Ai-kun to his home planet or whatever she'll help resolve the Vajra crisis; I don't think it's totally driven by her simply wanting to return Ai-kun, she must have some kind of idea about it making a major difference.

And I agree with others, Ranka probably doesn't think she'll come back alive, hence the past-tense "I loved you" to Alto.

Best.

RF-26

[yaiba]

She ran off to space without admitting responsibility.

This is one of the common criticisms about Ranka. My question is: responsibility to what? To appear in a parade or sing at a wake? I think she's earned more than a pass on these trivial matters after helping to save everyones collective rear ends.

[RF-26AAC]

...so please damn, accept the facts the way they are and enjoy Macross F. If you feel like got too much energy, don't waste it on flaming, go ride a bike or make sex with your girlfriend.

LMAO

These are otaku fanboys we are talking to here, many of them don't know what a girlfriend is XD :hides:

nah I jest, I jest.

Sheryl's a little overt mind you, but at least her intentions are pretty clear. Ranka kinda kept herself well within the friend zone, making it unclear to a dunkopf like Alto that she's in love with him until her farewell love-confession.

I think Ranka has more puppy love feelings for Alto, but unlike most highschool crushes, her crush holds wayy more water than most highschool crushes given that Alto's saved her life on more than one occasion... that kinda stuff turns (most) girls on in a huge way... but the thing is, she could not bring herself to say it or come out with it, and at this stage in the game it may well be too late for it, but it sure as hell confused Alto XD

Sheryl happens to be in love with Alto more for who he is rather than something he's done...

I can't say one's love is more valid than the other but both girls have their pros and cons.

Edited September 3, 2008 by RF-26AAC

[yaiba]

The traitor argument generates quite a bit of hate... Is she a traitor for no longer wanting to sing to help defeat the Varija? Or is she a patriot for not fighting/singing in a war she thinks is wrong? I can see the controversy here, as judging her action lies close to the views a person holds on the subject and that debate can get quite heated.

To be a true traitor, she would have to gather a bunch of Vajra, and send them to attack Frontier. Wait, someone has already done that already though... I wonder who that could be?

Seems to me when it comes to love & war, viewpoints become polarized to the point where the truth cannot be seen.

[crescens]

These are otaku fanboys we are talking to here, many of them don't know what a girlfriend is XD :hides:

nah I jest, I jest.

Sheryl's a little overt mind you, but at least her intentions are pretty clear. Ranka kinda kept herself well within the friend zone, making it unclear to a dunkopf like Alto that she's in love with him until her farewell love-confession.

I think Ranka has more puppy love feelings for Alto, but unlike most highschool crushes, her crush holds wayy more water than most highschool crushes given that Alto's saved her life on more than one occasion... that kinda stuff turns (most) girls on in a huge way... but the thing is, she could not bring herself to say it or come out with it, and at this stage in the game it may well be too late for it, but it sure as hell confused Alto XD

Sheryl happens to be in love with Alto more for who he is rather than something he's done...

I can't say one's love is more valid than the other but both girls have their pros and cons.

This could be the case, but still, let's not forget she changed a lot since her first meeting with Alto, she's so damn shy lol. I had a theory about this triangle, and i based it on the "Triangular/Triangler" opening. May'n gives her vocal to Sheryl so, we can take it as Sheryl statement ( i know its uber dumb but hey~ dont kill me xD ). Besides, the way lyrics are written, points more at Sheryl. It's just a guess, cause i cheer for Ranka in the end. And yup, Sheryl is totally like "i know what i want" - strong lady.

urp... those mushroms for lunch have a side effect xD anyways cheers

[yaiba]

Evil war criminal? Yes all zentradi are.

This is an interesting comment. I wonder if feelings about exterminating the Zentraedi can even hold a candle to those about exterminating the Vajra? I'd say the Vajra have done a lot less against humanity than the Zentraedi yet they have generated much more hatred.

In another thread I remember someone half-joking about how hokey it would be if the writers were trying to portray the Vajra as being misunderstood. I'm not sure what is wrong with this approach though. Saying all the Vajra are evil is a good way to ease your conscience about killing them, but it's just xenophobia. Outside of mathematics I would say that there are no absolutes. People into religion, politics, and anime would like you to belive so, but they are mistaken

[yaiba]

Nausicaa (in the comic/anime) became a champion for the insects, valuing the lives of humans and bugs equally, and trying to get them to coexist. Hence, Ranka going off to the Vajra at the end of 21 is probably done with a similar purpose in mind. And yes, I think she is going to the Vajra fully conscious of her role as a mediator. And I don't think she expects to return alive. In other words, I think she did a very brave thing by going.

If you look closer, you can draw other parallels.

Nausicaa: Doroks maim a small Ohmu so that they can use it as bait to draw the main herd into smashing the Torumekians.

Macross F: Galaxy provokes the Vajra to attack Frontier.

Nausicaa: Nausicaa becomes soaked in blue Ohmu blood trying to protect the small Ohmu from going into a lake of acid.

Macross F: Mikhail becomes soaked in blue bug juice trying to protect Klan.

Nausicaa: Noble young princess has a mysterious way of communicating with giant bugs.

Macross F: Naive young idol has a mysterious way of communicating with giant bugs.

Nausicaa: Heroine has pet fox-squirrel

Macross F: Heroine has pet weird green three-eyed squirrel/Vajra larva

Nausicaa: Heroine on quest to get humanity to co-exist with the fukai and its inhabitants

Macross F: Heroine on quest to get humanity to co-exist with the Vajra

[magnuskn]

I feel that the argument that Ranka is either an innocent teenager or an evil war criminal, with no middle ground, is just putting up a straw man argument, because of course most people will shy away from labeling her the latter. It´s just as saying "Are you a patriotic citizen, or a dirty commie traitor?", to cite a known parallel "argument", which has about as much value of discussion as "Did you beat your wife today?".

And, as always with such arguments, it´s very efficient at channeling discussion towards people going totally in the Ranka camp, as to be not associated with treating her like a "evil war criminal". I haven´t seen much argumentation by Ranka detractors that she should be treated as a criminal, although some over the top comments do certainly exist.

But I think it can be easily put forward that she is a less than ideal main protagonist, because there are certain not very admirable character traits in her which should by now be difficult to deny. She has a very myopic view of things and persons, mostly in how they relate to her. She is not very intellectually curious as to what makes her friends tick. She manages to always present herself as the victim, even when she led a pretty pampered life, doted on by Ozma. Yes, she had a big trauma in her childhood, but she doesn´t even remember it.

Her running off with Brera and Ai-kun has been counted as a good thing numerous times now, with the motives being ascribed to her as trying to find a solution and saving Frontier. Yet it is pretty easy to poke holes into these assertions... Ranka never voiced such a sentiment, her motivation, as said by her herself, is to bring back Ai-kun to his race, because he hasn´t done anything bad. She can´t be sure if her song will be enough to pacify the Vajra from attacking them and she cannot know that a Vajra attack won´t destroy Frontier in the meanwhile.

Not to forget that she took one of the pilots who is most capable with her and wanted to take another one of the most qualified. Her "plan", if it can be called so, is very haphazard and almost suicidal.

As of another motivation why a lot of Sheryl fans dislike Ranka: Sheryl had it much worse in comparison, and as of what we know now, she does remember how she had to go dumpster diving in her late childhood. Yet she manages to not be as egotistical as Ranka in her worldview and has shown selfless kindness numerous times. I think it is little wonder that Sheryl fans are apopletic at the thought that she could lose to Ranka, seeing the difference in portrayal of the two characters.

I´m really wondering if Kawamori & Co. let Rankas characterization get away from them, or if all this was planned by them.

[yaiba]

As of another motivation why a lot of Sheryl fans dislike Ranka: Sheryl had it much worse in comparison, and as of what we know now, she does remember how she had to go dumpster diving in her late childhood. Yet she manages to not be as egotistical as Ranka in her worldview and has shown selfless kindness numerous times. I think it is little wonder that Sheryl fans are apopletic at the thought that she could lose to Ranka, seeing the difference in portrayal of the two characters.

People always bring up the selfish Ranka/selfless Sheryl comparison, but the arguments are totally subjective. People who dislike Ranka always attribute the worst possible motivations for any of her actions. They also portray Sheryl's actions in the most positive light.

I don't dislike Sheryl, but if were not for her kindness, she would be just one [mis-]step away from being a Paris Hilton-type character.

[magnuskn]

People always bring up the selfish Ranka/selfless Sheryl comparison, but the arguments are totally subjective. People who dislike Ranka always attribute the worst possible motivations for any of her actions. They also portray Sheryl's actions in the most positive light.

I don't dislike Sheryl, but if were not for her kindness, she would be just one [mis-]step away from being a Paris Hilton-type character.

Well, shouldn´t the characters be judged on how they *are*, instead of how the *could be*?

[yaiba]

Well, shouldn´t the characters be judged on how they *are*, instead of how the *could be*?

I made no judgements. How characters 'are' and how they 'could be' are also entirely subjective. I merely made an observation that it you took away her kindness and added drunkeness, Sheryl would be yet another privileged blonde celebrity with a sense of entitlement. It does not take much effort to make a character entirely unlikeable.

Okay, maybe I did judge Paris Hilton, but I guess I prefer to save my contempt for real people rather than cartoon characters.

Edited September 3, 2008 by yaiba

[RF-26AAC]

I don't dislike Sheryl, but if were not for her kindness, she would be just one [mis-]step away from being a Paris Hilton-type character.

Yes, but Sheryl can actually *sing*... and isn't a vacuous idiot. Sheryl is actually capable of learning.

Sheryl is famous for singing, while Paris Hilton is famous for being... Paris Hilton.

Let's not draw that analogy.

You're spot on about the "Selfishness" argument about Ranka, the both of those girls have done pretty selfish things, though Sheryl has actually been a bit more selfish

For instance I resented that Sheryl carried off Alto to another planet when Alto promised to meet Ranka... I don't like Ranka, but I'm one for not standing up your dates...

And then, after standing her up, Ranka comes to save Alto's day.

Despite this, I still want Alto to hook up with Sheryl already.

Alto going to Gailia IV (or whatever) was selfish... regardless of Sheryl's motivation of wanting to give Alto a real sky.

The date-stealing was one of the things that really cemented my hatred for Minmay in SDFM. I hated her for taking Hayase's date and ruining things. Mucking about cluttering Hikaru's head when he's finally getting serious about Misa.

Thank god for DYRL. %*#^ you, Minmay. *sneer*

At the same time, I don't resent Sheryl for it cos she's done her share of redeeming things... and she's not super obnoxious. Though maybe it's just that Asuka streak she has that appeals to me. I don't know.

[yaiba]

... and she's not super obnoxious. Though maybe it's just that Asuka streak she has that appeals to me. I don't know.

There seems to be a lot of anime fans who like the whole bossy-woman thing, but believe me it gets old real fast if you're on the receiving end. I do admit it is amusing to observe as an outsider though.

[RF-26AAC]

There seems to be a lot of anime fans who like the whole bossy-woman thing, but believe me it gets old real fast if you're on the receiving end. I do admit it is amusing to observe as an outsider though.

Oh, do I know how it gets old if it's constant.

But it's *still* kinda sexy if occasional or observed.

[Final Vegeta]

I don't have read all the posts before in the thread, but I wish to say something in case the thread get locked

I have always thought the purpose of a fandom was to be somewhat united. I accept the differences in personal tastes, but there should be some mutual understanding in the benefits of a peaceful common place. Being niche is not actually that cool, and trying to induce guilty trips for liking something in fellow fans is the fastest way to reduce the fandom.

If there is someone here who doesn't like something I like, I will discuss and try to explain him what could be liked. Frankly, after years on internet, discussing gives me an ulcer, so I do it sparingly, but nevertheless this is an example of constructive behaviour, because nothing bad comes from being able to appreciate more things.

Try to persuade others into disliking something they don't dislike is NOT a constructive behaviour. It's snobby at best. It's OK to say a negative opinion, but keep it brief and don't repeat it in every single post. Never intervene if it looks like you have the strength of the numbers, or give that impression. Have good taste in your negative opinions.

Now, about the case of Ranka, the accusations are signs of bad taste. You can say someone is self-centered (and I heard it as back as ep. 12) when he is also ruthless and greedy. Anything less than that it's a murky case that can be won only by sophisms (which are lame). Also Ranka did try and was helpful to others in several circumstances, so more than sophisms you need miracles, or a choir to preach to.

FV

[RF-26AAC]

I don't have read all the posts before in the thread, but I wish to say something in case the thread get locked

I have always thought the purpose of a fandom was to be somewhat united. I accept the differences in personal tastes, but there should be some mutual understanding in the benefits of a peaceful common place. Being niche is not actually that cool, and trying to induce guilty trips for liking something in fellow fans is the fastest way to reduce the fandom.

If there is someone here who doesn't like something I like, I will discuss and try to explain him what could be liked. Frankly, after years on internet, discussing gives me an ulcer, so I do it sparingly, but nevertheless this is an example of constructive behaviour, because nothing bad comes from being able to appreciate more things.

Try to persuade others into disliking something they don't dislike is NOT a constructive behaviour. It's snobby at best. It's OK to say a negative opinion, but keep it brief and don't repeat it in every single post. Never intervene if it looks like you have the strength of the numbers, or give that impression. Have good taste in your negative opinions.

Now, about the case of Ranka, the accusations are signs of bad taste. You can say someone is self-centered (and I heard it as back as ep. 12) when he is also ruthless and greedy. Anything less than that it's a murky case that can be won only by sophisms (which are lame). Also Ranka did try and was helpful to others in several circumstances, so more than sophisms you need miracles, or a choir to preach to.

FV

buono detto.

well said, mate.

But bear in mind mate, this is like trying to resolve the Ford Vs Chevy or Mac Vs PC or Misa Vs Minmay debate or even Lauren Vs Heidi, there's nothing new about it.

People like to be divided in opinion and will argue to prove themselves right regardless of how ridiculous the logic behind the opinion is.

While the Mac vs PC crowd can't agree one is better than the other, they both agree they like computers.

Ford Vs Chevy guys agree that they like cars, and Misa vs Minmay debaters agree that they like Macross. Team Lauren and Team Heidi can both agree they like "The Hills".

So, regardless of the division the unity in opinion you are striving for is simply not possible when there is an inherent conflict in the show... it's going to breed debate one way or another.

So while not everyone can agree on Ranka vs Sheryl, we can all agree we like Macross F.