Ride Armors, Legioss and Treads! Oh my!

[AcroRay]

AcroRay, that's a CA state law and I remember hearing that it was really all smoke and mirrors and that the mugs with those labels are essentially the same as any other mug. Might be wrong, but that's what I was told.

Ah. I guess then its the sort of thing where sunlight could feature the same warning as well....

[RavenHawk]

In my brief time with my Beta toy I found that speading the Alpha's feet/thrusters, recessing the "connection points" beside the Beta's missle bays, and having the Alpha cupped on the stand and then sliding the two together gets me the closest fit. Still not as perfect as the anime, but that's to be expected.

The Alpha's arms are supposed to fit into those recessed connection points and mine comes pretty darn close to it. Sadly the combined fighter doesn't look quite as cool as it does on the show

Yeah, I did spread the feet/thrusters and recess the "connection points." It's definitely clear that that is where the Alpha's arms arm supposed to fit into, but mine don't even come close to it.

[RavenHawk]

The problem is probably that the inner torso isn't collapsing together enough (which causes the 'banana' shape problem, I believe), or that the upper and lower legs aren't collapsing together enough, and are jamming up when they slide together. To secure the fighter form, you have to get the tabs on the thing's "groin" to lock into the slots behind the collapsed knees, and for the arms to lock into the little sockets on the leg surfaces.

My Rook Alpha had the same issue with the left-side leg & shoulder jamming up, so I took the Rook's left leg apart to find out what the deal was:

On the interior surface of the halves of the lower left leg (and presumably the shoulder), I found a channel where the upper leg travels, sliding with a poly-cap. One of the halves' poly cap and channel was gummed up with some stray paint or some glue (I forget which), so I had to clean it up carefully a bit with a hobby knife. To get the leg apart you have to leaver out a couple of plugs which hide the screws. It wasn't a problem on mine to do it with a fresh, sharp hobby knife blade but it did leave a tiny bit of a blemish on one. Your mileage may vary depending on how well your's is assembled. (When you put them back in, be careful with the one on the lower most area of the leg. I think its angled to fit in flush a certain way, iirc.) Its a little tricky, so be careful keeping all of your dis-assembled parts straight. I've done this sort of thing to tweak a lot of transforming toys over the year, from TF's to Yamato Valks.

I found a similar issue seems to occur with the way the bicep telescopes out of the Alpha's shoulder. But in that case I think its just that the tolerances on the joint is just universally tight in the toy's design. The shoulder is glued together, if I recall. (I'm at work now, so no handy reference). My advice is to just firmly grasp the shoulder with one hand and the uppermost portion of the bicep with the other hand, and carefully extend it as far as it will go (us a picture on-line, or compare to the other shoulder's extension), and maybe do it a couple of times to wear some play into the slider. Your concerns there are to not inadvertently damage the swing-bar and hinge that connects the arm assembly to the torso/fuselage, and to not strain or break the mid-bicep swivel joint.

Another issue you might want to be careful with is the hatches on the leg missile bays. Their joints tend to get painted closed, and can break easily (well, I had one that did) because they're a tiny snap-together part, and both the door and hinge are molded in transparent plastic and painted (probably the same tooling set as the canopy parts). Why? The transparent plastic tends to be very rigid and holds the very fine tolerances for the part through demolding rather well, but the transparent plastic also tends to be brittle and will snap easily. So many teenie parts make up this thing!

I'd venture to say that the telescoping limb elements and center torso block are the most likely source of challenges with the Legioss design. If any single one doesn't work, the whole thing is affected. That's the big difference between the Legioss and the typical Valkyrie, I think. The Valkyrie is made up of folds and hinges - rather like a piece of origami. The Legioss is made from telescoping parts and hinges - more like a photography tripod. If you've ever wrestled with a complex tripod (like a heavier Vinten or Sachler cinematography tripod and head) that's jamming up or failing to lock anywhere in its structure, you know what a huge pain-in-the-a55 it can be to set up or stow away. You can say "Oh, these sticks are crap." but you still have to get them to do their job.

Sounds like your Sterling Alpha is buggy typical of an Alpha MPC. I've had that landing gear issue on a wheel or two on my Alphas (and on a Yamato Valk or two.) Mine are usually in Soldier, Diver or 'Stalking Fighter' mode, so I haven't had the motivation to debug them of it. My suspicion is that its a poly-cap issue again. That maybe the axle pin in the strut is glued into the poly cap in a closed position, so the cap's natural elasticity wants to pull the axle and strut back to a closed position. Or alternately that the poly cap isn't giving enough resistance to keep it from folding in on itself under the weight of the jet. I'd say just buy a Flexi-Display stand for it. They take up a lot of shelf-space in jet mode. If its in the air, you can display more stuff around it!

Wow, very helpful stuff. I really appreciate it. I'm going to muck around with this over the next few days and let you know how it turns out.

I think I'm frustrated because:

1) I've wanted these since I was 9

2) These things are pretty pricey, even if limited product runs somewhat justify the cost

3) Having worked as an engineer for a decade now, from design through project management, I get frustrated when I see something produced with these kinds of issues while knowing that they COULD be remedied at the factory (just look at how nicely the Beta works)

Thanks again.

[RavenHawk]

That's REALLY disturbing. I'd wanted a set of those mugs to actually drink out of. Now I absolutely think I'll pass...

I wouldn't worry about it. I used the non-broken one last night, and no tumors yet.

The issue is really, I THINK, about there being these more-or-less carcinogenic materials that it's made out of, not that leach into your drink. Drink out of the mug, just don't grind it up into your breakfast.

[RavenHawk]

I think your problems with transformation are mostly to do with the bugginess of the design. I remember my first attempts to transform that toy back into fighter mode... it seemed like the fight of a lifetime. After I'd done it about 4 or 5 times I started to learn how I should hold it at certain points, what areas of the toy could cause problems if not alligned perfectly, etc. Just remember, if it started out that way it can get back to that way. If it's the rear landing gears that are frustrating you by not staying up you're probably not pushing them far enough forward... they actually lock into place at some point (IIRC). If your combined Alpha Beta doesn't look as tight as pictures you've seen elsewhere then you're doing something wrong.

It is the rear landing gear, like you said. I'll try what you suggested tonight. I think I've been very gentle with trying to get the arms to pull out fully and with the landing gear because I've read so many stories on here about these things breaking.

As simple as it is, you do make a good point: if it started out in fighter mode, it can get back to it. I'll try to play around with it some more tonight.

Thanks.

[RavenHawk]

So does any one have any affordable stronger stands that they could recommend for the Alpha/Beta combo?

Any fixes for getting the connecting boom to hold the two together better as well?

[AcroRay]

Wow, very helpful stuff. I really appreciate it. I'm going to muck around with this over the next few days and let you know how it turns out.

I think I'm frustrated because:

1) I've wanted these since I was 9

2) These things are pretty pricey, even if limited product runs somewhat justify the cost

3) Having worked as an engineer for a decade now, from design through project management, I get frustrated when I see something produced with these kinds of issues while knowing that they COULD be remedied at the factory (just look at how nicely the Beta works)

Thanks again.

You're welcome.

I think all of the Alpha's various problems boil down to QC issues (apart from a couple of materials choices or painting-vs-cast-in-color choices). Its virtually impossible for them to keep up the quality control needed to reliably produce such a complex product in whatever budget, facility or timetable they've been working in. You know the rules...

Pick only 2:

1. Fast

2. Cheap

3. Good

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

So you're saying there's no way of producing a better Alpha toy?

[RavenHawk]

So you're saying there's no way of producing a better Alpha toy?

I think they could have, but it would've required more development time (removing the "fast" from the three choices, and possibly costing some of the "cheap").

If the Alpha was designed anywhere near as well as the Beta, I'd have almost nothing but praise.

Still don't like the connection between the two. I thought I had read that the CM's connection was even worse, though I'm having some trouble picturing that.

[jenius]

No, he's saying there are trade-offs and that Toynami chose fast and cheap over making a good product. Unfortunately, in that example I don't really think "Cheap" and "Good" are two options you can pick simultaneously and "Good" and "Fast" together would probably require a huge premium as I doubt many shops are capable. Basically, if someone wants to make a high quality Legioss toy they're going to have to make it larger in scale and of high quality materials and farm it out to a manufacturing company that can do premium toys. It's a bummer no one has revisited the 1/35 scale thus far because that toy is amazing for an 80s toy and a modern update could be exactly what we've all been hoping for.

Ravenhawk, didn't you see pictures of the CMs connection? It's atrocious. You should have no problem picturing it, you should have seen pictures of it. If you haven't, go to my site!

Edit - on display stands... I'm having an issue because the stand needed for the Alpha Beta would be huge. I think I'd need to get like 10" rods on a flexidisplay stand and those would probably have too much flex so they'd need to be thicker. The stand would probably also need a four rods (if you were posing the Beta with the legs down, Alpha in fighter mode, 1 for the alpha, 1 for each leg, and 1 for the back of the Beta). I'd probably need a 10" rod for the Alpha and Beta and then like 4" rods for the legs...

Edited December 31, 2008 by jenius

[RavenHawk]

Ravenhawk, didn't you see pictures of the CMs connection? It's atrocious. You should have no problem picturing it, you should have seen pictures of it. If you haven't, go to my site!

Edit - on display stands... I'm having an issue because the stand needed for the Alpha Beta would be huge. I think I'd need to get like 10" rods on a flexidisplay stand and those would probably have too much flex so they'd need to be thicker. The stand would probably also need a four rods (if you were posing the Beta with the legs down, Alpha in fighter mode, 1 for the alpha, 1 for each leg, and 1 for the back of the Beta). I'd probably need a 10" rod for the Alpha and Beta and then like 4" rods for the legs...

Looking at your site now, at the comparison. Obviously I don't have one now, but it looks like the connector holds the Beta more firmly on the CM that the slide-in piece on the Toynami, and it doesn't look like it holds the Alpha any WORSE... what am I missing?

I don't know what we need for a display stand... maybe 4 legs joining to a smaller platform, which connects to the connector boom.

[RavenHawk]

Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad that I got the Toynami and not the CM's, if for no other reasons that the scale of the Beta relative to the Alpha, and the darker coloring. Just, still disappointed by some elements.

Have to get back to finding a blue Alpha now...

[SuperHobo]

Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad that I got the Toynami and not the CM's, if for no other reasons that the scale of the Beta relative to the Alpha, and the darker coloring. Just, still disappointed by some elements.

Have to get back to finding a blue Alpha now...

Yo RavenHawk was there anything broken on your alpha? How is the paint?

[RavenHawk]

Yo RavenHawk was there anything broken on your alpha? How is the paint?

Nothing broken on my Alpha (hopefully nothing will break tonight when I muck around with it some more). Seems to be fine.

Paint seemed just fine everywhere, but I'll take a really close look tonight if you want.

[AcroRay]

So you're saying there's no way of producing a better Alpha toy?

Not at all. But I actually think Toynami's Legioss/Alpha is a wonderful design for the scale. I just believe that it would benefit from slower production time - allowing workers to spend more time on each unit, assembling more carefully and allowing paints and glues to cure more properly between successive assembly stages - and possibly a couple of small materials changes.

To do that - eliminating the 'fast' choice - Toynami would probably have to lower production quantities or push back the release date.

Of course, all of this is dependent upon a manufacturing contractor who is trustworthy and can be relied upon to adhere to agreed-upon quality control assurances and hasn't deliberately taken on the job without being able to successfully accomplish that.

I worked on a line of very complicated diecast & plastic SF toys that were handled by a manufacturing facility that normally did wonderful work - particularly as evidenced in early test shots and their final Quality Assurance samples. But they had undertaken a job we later realized was beyond their capability and fell far, far behind schedule and subsequently ignored QC assurance agreements and clandestinely farmed out much of the actual manufacturing to a subcontractor who completely botched the job. The results were cases of toys with any combination of malformed parts, that were broken in their packaging, had paint flaking off of them, were packed upside-down, assembled with odd wrong-colored parts, etc, etc. The QC failure rate was as high as 45% in some estimates. Really, some of the stuff looked like it had been purchased from a yard sale's well-worn 25-cent box and repackaged for sale.

But I digress...

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

No, he's saying there are trade-offs and that Toynami chose fast and cheap over making a good product. Unfortunately, in that example I don't really think "Cheap" and "Good" are two options you can pick simultaneously and "Good" and "Fast" together would probably require a huge premium as I doubt many shops are capable. Basically, if someone wants to make a high quality Legioss toy they're going to have to make it larger in scale and of high quality materials and farm it out to a manufacturing company that can do premium toys. It's a bummer no one has revisited the 1/35 scale thus far because that toy is amazing for an 80s toy and a modern update could be exactly what we've all been hoping for.

I'm pretty sure we haven't seen the ultimate Legioss/TREAD combo. Companies such as Yamato and Bandai with even more obscure transforming toys than these under their belt, will surely pick up the license sooner or later, seeing how much interest there's still on Mospeada and how much room for improvement there is over the current products. And now that CM's and Toynami raised the bar making the Beta a must, I'm sure well see a better engineered combo sometime down the road. Of course that timing is a concern since you don't want to flood the market with such a niche product, but I'm sure it will happen.

[woll622]

Nothing broken on my Alpha (hopefully nothing will break tonight when I muck around with it some more). Seems to be fine.

Paint seemed just fine everywhere, but I'll take a really close look tonight if you want.

That makes me feel better since mine was DOA on arrival because of a glued together shoulder. I'm sad to say that this is my second Alpha MPC out of 5 that I own to have issues. But, that is to be expected. I only transform them thru all modes twice a year when I take them to work to display at my desk.

I have emailed Toynami and have their phone #, but they seem to be out for the holidays. I'll have to hit them up probably Tuesday or Wednesday next week sometime so that I can actually get through and talk to someone. With the new releases of MPC items, I'm sure they will be swamped.

Has anyone ever had to deal with Toynami on a MPC return? Do they make the customer spend more money on shipping to return the broken item to be replaced? Any insight for what I'm in for would be greatly apprecited.

Edited December 31, 2008 by woll622

[jenius]

Looking at your site now, at the comparison. Obviously I don't have one now, but it looks like the connector holds the Beta more firmly on the CM that the slide-in piece on the Toynami, and it doesn't look like it holds the Alpha any WORSE... what am I missing?

I don't know what we need for a display stand... maybe 4 legs joining to a smaller platform, which connects to the connector boom.

The CMs connection is a massive metal arm connecting two very light plastic toys. This means that when you put the CMs Beta in the cradle (that's another thing, it's an actual cradle for their Tread, not an arm) and pick the thing up the whole assembly slops downward. If you wanted to have the CMs Legioss and Tread together you would have to hold the cradle and probably both the legioss and Tread in place. Also, the way the cradle wraps around the tread you can't bring the Tread's legs down and angle them outward. The CMs cradle has its landing gears permanently affixed so if you're not using them they just sit there as eye sores. Also, the CMs Legioss doesn't physically connect in anyway to the Tread so it just wants to flop right out of the connection if you move it around at all whereas the Toynami Alpha butts up against the Beta so tight it won't shake left and right with normal movement (if you've got it connected right, sounds like you might still be having problems). Finally, the way the cradle attaches to the CMs display stand means you can't display it with both toys connected in fighter mode. It's the most craptastic connection that could have possibly been engineered. I think it sucks the Toynami doesn't lock the arm in the Beta, it seems like that would have been easy to do, but otherwise it's leaps and bounds better than the CMs.

Toynami on returns: I'm pretty sure you have to pay to ship it to them and they'll pay to ship it back to you.

Edited December 31, 2008 by jenius

[AcroRay]

Of course that timing is a concern since you don't want to flood the market with such a niche product, but I'm sure it will happen.

I doubt within this decade, unless Studio HalfEye wants to make a Legioss/Tlead kit. I wouldn't overestimate the current popularity of Mospeada. I think its just part of a current trend toward nostalgia for the 'formative' decade of a number of toy/licensed-product industry professionals in power right now. The same thing happened here in the US a few years ago, resulting in a huge swell of product from all sorts of toy & licensed product stuff from Tron to H.R. Puffnstuff, to Thundercats to SCTV. Much of it died away within a year or so. I don't want to compare Mospeada to much of that sort of stuff, but I think Mospeada in Japan has benefited from much the same sort of tide. Once those waters recede within the next 12 months, I don't think we'll see much if any new Mospeada product... or Dorvack, Orguss & numerous other series that have suddenly started receiving new licensed product development 20+ years after they originally aired.

[RavenHawk]

The CMs connection is a massive metal arm connecting two very light plastic toys. This means that when you put the CMs Beta in the cradle (that's another thing, it's an actual cradle for their Tread, not an arm) and pick the thing up the whole assembly slops downward. If you wanted to have the CMs Legioss and Tread together you would have to hold the cradle and probably both the legioss and Tread in place. Also, the way the cradle wraps around the tread you can't bring the Tread's legs down and angle them outward. The CMs cradle has its landing gears permanently affixed so if you're not using them they just sit there as eye sores. Also, the CMs Legioss doesn't physically connect in anyway to the Tread so it just wants to flop right out of the connection if you move it around at all whereas the Toynami Alpha butts up against the Beta so tight it won't shake left and right with normal movement (if you've got it connected right, sounds like you might still be having problems). Finally, the way the cradle attaches to the CMs display stand means you can't display it with both toys connected in fighter mode. It's the most craptastic connection that could have possibly been engineered. I think it sucks the Toynami doesn't lock the arm in the Beta, it seems like that would have been easy to do, but otherwise it's leaps and bounds better than the CMs.

Toynami on returns: I'm pretty sure you have to pay to ship it to them and they'll pay to ship it back to you.

I see what you mean. Ok, based on that, it sounds even more like I made the right choice going with Toynami, at least for what I'm looking for.

I'll see if I can get the two to connect closer together tonight. The connector not locking to the Beta though... still a big deal to me, especially considering how obvious and easy it would be.

Thanks for the input.

[RavenHawk]

I doubt within this decade, unless Studio HalfEye wants to make a Legioss/Tlead kit. I wouldn't overestimate the current popularity of Mospeada. I think its just part of a current trend toward nostalgia for the 'formative' decade of a number of toy/licensed-product industry professionals in power right now. The same thing happened here in the US a few years ago, resulting in a huge swell of product from all sorts of toy & licensed product stuff from Tron to H.R. Puffnstuff, to Thundercats to SCTV. Much of it died away within a year or so. I don't want to compare Mospeada to much of that sort of stuff, but I think Mospeada in Japan has benefited from much the same sort of tide. Once those waters recede within the next 12 months, I don't think we'll see much if any new Mospeada product... or Dorvack, Orguss & numerous other series that have suddenly started receiving new licensed product development 20+ years after they originally aired.

That may well be, we'll have to wait and see.

I hope I get my Shadow Beta and Shadow Masterpiece Cyclone before that happens...

[Mog]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the stickers that come with the Beta are pretty high quality and top notch.

Compared to Toynami's earlier MPC releases, the Beta's stickers are a vast improvement. They're also much better than most Yamato stock stickers and have practically none of that ugly haze. The "NO STEP's" in particular are big and clear.

Of course if you're still looking for something to criticize, Toynami definitely should have made the Mars Base stickers for the wings BIGGER.

.....But yeah, I rectified that problem quick (and added some light panel-lining to boot!) :

Edited December 31, 2008 by Mog

[woll622]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the stickers that come with the Beta are pretty high quality and top notch.

Compared to Toynami's earlier MPC releases, the Beta's stickers are a vast improvement. They're also much better than most Yamato stock stickers and have practically none of that ugly haze. The "NO STEP's" in particular are big and clear.

Of course if you're still looking for something to criticize, Toynami definitely should have made the Mars Base stickers for the wings BIGGER.

.....But yeah, I rectified that problem quick (and added some light panel-lining to boot!) :

The added panel-lining looks good.

[woll622]

Toynami on returns: I'm pretty sure you have to pay to ship it to them and they'll pay to ship it back to you.

Thanks for the reply jenius, I was thinking I would be paying for shipping.

[Ginrai]

I worked on a line of very complicated diecast & plastic SF toys that were handled by a manufacturing facility that normally did wonderful work - particularly as evidenced in early test shots and their final Quality Assurance samples. But they had undertaken a job we later realized was beyond their capability and fell far, far behind schedule and subsequently ignored QC assurance agreements and clandestinely farmed out much of the actual manufacturing to a subcontractor who completely botched the job. The results were cases of toys with any combination of malformed parts, that were broken in their packaging, had paint flaking off of them, were packed upside-down, assembled with odd wrong-colored parts, etc, etc. The QC failure rate was as high as 45% in some estimates. Really, some of the stuff looked like it had been purchased from a yard sale's well-worn 25-cent box and repackaged for sale.

But I digress...

We talking about Micronauts here?

[SuperHobo]

The added panel-lining looks good.

Are the stickers just regular peel off and stick on or are they rub on stickers?

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Once those waters recede within the next 12 months, I don't think we'll see much if any new Mospeada product... or Dorvack, Orguss & numerous other series that have suddenly started receiving new licensed product development 20+ years after they originally aired.

Don't forget that we, the Mospeada fans, are all around our 30's now, which means we've just began to be a collector's market target for manufacturers with a few decades for milking ahead of us. It might take a few years, but I'm a patient guy. Heck! In 30 years from now Bandai may even release a super deluxe 1/35 Special Edition combo in a glass case for those among us who have a nice pension and a condo in Florida.

[AcroRay]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the stickers that come with the Beta are pretty high quality and top notch.

Compared to Toynami's earlier MPC releases, the Beta's stickers are a vast improvement.

I find that really good to know - and thanks for noting it. I was very disappointed in the milky film the previous versions were printed on, which I think really detracted from the Alpha's look.

[AcroRay]

We talking about Micronauts here?

Yeperoonie....

[AcroRay]

The CMs connection is a massive metal arm connecting two very light plastic toys. This means that when you put the CMs Beta in the cradle (that's another thing, it's an actual cradle for their Tread, not an arm) and pick the thing up the whole assembly slops downward.

Idea:

What kind of metal is it? Would it respond to a couple of Rare Earth magnets mod'ed into the mechs? That would sure keep everything attached pretty solidly.

(Apologies if this has already been suggested.)

[Mog]

Are the stickers just regular peel off and stick on or are they rub on stickers?

They're just your average peel-and-stick variety.

If you mean the custom Mars Base ones on the wing, those are also peel-and-stick too.

[promethuem5]

So I stupidly just went to fiddle with my MH Ride Armors and all I gave to say is good riddance, bring on the Beagle / Toynami...

[AcroRay]

So I stupidly just went to fiddle with my MH Ride Armors and all I gave to say is good riddance, bring on the Beagle / Toynami...

I think I might like to pick up a CM or MH Ride Armor - if I can find one cheap or pre-owned. It'll go nicely with my Matchbox Invid toys, and sort of crossover into my Microman/Micronauts collection.

Maybe when people start shedding them in disappointment after the Beagle/Toynami is released...

[Axelay]

After seeing both heads, I am really torn now as to which of the 1/10 Ridearmors I want. I definitely prefer the head of the Beagle, but I have a sinking feeling that it's going to cost me a lot more to get my hands on it. Any advice here? I am trying to keep my budget as close to $200 as I possibly can...

[magicsp00n]

I expect somebody around here will be offering recasts of that Japanese head once the toys are out, depending on exactly how it attaches to the neck.

Which brings me to a question... I've seen a few photos of transformation, but does anybody know if you need to pop the head off to transform the Beagle, like you do on the MH and old IMAI kits?

After seeing both heads, I am really torn now as to which of the 1/10 Ridearmors I want. I definitely prefer the head of the Beagle, but I have a sinking feeling that it's going to cost me a lot more to get my hands on it. Any advice here? I am trying to keep my budget as close to $200 as I possibly can...