Bandai 1/60 DX VF-25 transformable toy thread

[Scream Man]

to paraphrase the comic book guy form the simpsons:

"Worst. toys. ever! I will only buy 3.....in each colour!"

[protostar8]

This reminds me a lot of the bickering that went on when CMs confirmed that their Legioss toy was actually going to look only remotely like the Legioss from the anime. This VF-25 looks a WHOLE lot closer to the VF-25 in the show than CMs ever managed. Even with CMs giant leaping bounds of liberties taken plenty of people still love it because it's super durable and fun to handle.

Yeah, but what alternatives do people have??? With CM's, there is pretty much only theirs. With the VF-25, there are 3 versions to choose from. CM made choices to intentionally change the design. Bandai I don't believe did that. They just made sacrifices.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

This reminds me a lot of the bickering that went on when CMs confirmed that their Legioss toy was actually going to look only remotely like the Legioss from the anime. This VF-25 looks a WHOLE lot closer to the VF-25 in the show than CMs ever managed. Even with CMs giant leaping bounds of liberties taken plenty of people still love it because it's super durable and fun to handle.

I consider myself a big Mospeada fan and skipped on all of them because they don't look anything like the Legioss and they were too expensive for such a toyish looking, well, toy. If the price were near the looks of it, I would've bought them all. Same with the 25. So I guess I share the "looks over sturdiness" philosophy.

And again, the fact that Bandai went for durability on this doesn't necessarily mean that the toy will be flawless. This is a complex design and that means there's a lot of things that can go wrong.

If the DX 25 turns to be rock solid, I'll eat my own words and admit that despite the looks it delivered, but I'm almost certain that it WILL have issues.

[jenius]

Yeah, but what alternatives do people have??? With CM's, there is pretty much only theirs.

Or Toynamis, Aoshimas, or Gakkens.

I don't really follow your argument. You're okay with the CMs Legioss not much resembling lineart because it's so far from the lineart?

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Macross is bigger than Mospeada (although there has been a heap of companies taking up the licence), how long have we had to wait

for a decent (although not to line art) Legioss and Tread. I can say i haven't waited as long as some and i'm more of a macross

whore, but the fact that Toynami was so gay with their Alpha* i had to jump on board. I can't say lineart is that important with Mospeada,

as it is for Macross. hand in hand. I actually like the needle nose better for some reason... lol *shrugs* Mospy falls into the super robots category

for mine, where anything goes, as long as it resembles what i call a Legioss when i loved watching it buzz around as a kid.

This discussion is getting rather dull, ain't no changing Bandai's decisions now.

I'll be going the 1/72 route. This is a stamp of authority as a fan that Bandai didn't put enough care or love into the DX 1/60 product.

Sorry, i'm in the looks over durability category.

:editied, was on phone, thought some more:

Edited October 16, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Graham]

It may be that Bandai doesn't go for a model-like appearance because they actually sell a model kit.

.. which I guess brings up a question I honestly have for the folks who want it more model-like. Why don't you just build the model kits, when there are good ones (as there obviously are in this case)? Most of us toy collectors prefer toys to kits because we like the solidity and fun of a toy. If you don't care about 'play value', and 'accurate' appearance is your No. 1 priority, it seems like building model kits would be the way to go. Modern kits (like MGs) really aren't hard to build at all.

I think the problem that many of us have is that we know Bandai have the skill/technology/experience etc, to make a great looking lineart accurate (as far as possible) toy that is durable and rugged to boot. The problem is that they are so obviously not bringing their 'A' game to the table.

Heck, Yamato is 95% of the way there. All they need to do is take more care with their QC and work on tighter joints that don't loosen or break so easily and they would be 100% of the way there.

Graham

[ruskiiVFaussie]

You mean like the hands of the VF-0 stuck into the backpack in fighter mode?

Yeah interesting that Mr K is going this route with the newer designs. Didn't know the 25 had the same feature.

I guess as long as the hands aren't creating drag or interferance then why bother having them retract like the VF-1's or 19.

I just put the Zero's design down as a rush job (with the VF-1 hot on it's heels) and it wasn't important overall.

Edited October 16, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Sumdumgai]

Bandai is capable of a much better looking VF-25, and I'm certain they could make it damned sturdy as well.

I'm not telling other people not to buy it. If they like it and want to spend their money on it, whatever.

Bandai has a monopoly on Macross Frontier, so they can make these as high quality or low quality as they want, and people will still buy them as they are the only game in town. Yeah they've provided an alternative to the 1/60 with a model kit, which is a poor alternative to a toy, and a 1/100 scale partsformer. Now if they had decided that in addition to this chunker they would make a better looking collectors piece that actually had the essence of the VF-25, I'd be whole heartedly applauding them and cheering (like the difference between the chunky monkey Saint Seiya toys they continue to release, plus the Saint Cloth Myth line for collectors). As it is it looks like it was meant for a kid to play with, yet they're selling it at a collectors piece price.

So in that sense I would compare it to what Bandai did with Macross 7, except they're being a little bit more aggressive this time. Yet, they're not at 90% even. They're doing the motions, but they seem to being doing enough to make some money but not enough to win over more discriminating collectors.

The plus sides of what Bandai has done with the VF-25:

+VF-25 in 1/60 scale so it'll be in scale with the Yamato valkyries. That was a cool decision

+Perfect trasformation, another great decision

+/- Switchable hands (some prefer articulated)

+Priced lower than similar sized Valkyries from Yamato, a great decision

The negative:

-Bad proportions

-Doesn't look great in any mode

-Gap between the back and the legs in fighter mode

-Urkle ankles

-Leg placement too high in battroid, making the torso look squat

-Chunky (evolution of the chunky monkey)

-Crappy landing gear

-/+ Switchable hands (good or bad depending on what hand type you prefer)

-Fatty when equipped with Fast Packs

-Gunpod too thin

People seem to be assuming that it will have fantastic QC and will kick the crap out of Yamato's QC department. We'll wait and see on that. I recall people being very vocal about how if Bandai were to make Valkyries now they'd kick the crap out of Yamato in terms of looks, engineering, and QC. So far two out three haven't come true. Let's see if they fall short on the third as well.

Graham sums it up well. Bandai is capable of so much more, but they didn't bring their A-game to the table.

[IXTL]

-Gap between the back and the legs in fighter mode

For some reason that is the biggest issue I have with the DX figure. I can overlook the short landing gear and high hips etc but the leg placement in fighter mode is making me think twice on getting one.

Edited October 16, 2008 by IXTL

[brouken]

I mentioned a few posts back about the space between the back and legs. I think this is a deliberate design choice to accomodate the added bulk the fast packs and armored packs will put on the legs.

[brouken]

Also, I just want to ask Graham and the others: what toy would exemplify Bandai's "A" Game for you?

[Graham]

Also, I just want to ask Graham and the others: what toy would exemplify Bandai's "A" Game for you?

Some of the SOC, the 1/100 HCM-Pros.

Graham

[Sumdumgai]

I mentioned a few posts back about the space between the back and legs. I think this is a deliberate design choice to accomodate the added bulk the fast packs and armored packs will put on the legs.

Like the VF-1 and YF-19, the VF-25 needs to have the legs bent at the point where the legs come down for gerwalk, and at the knees for the leg portions of the fast packs to attach. You can see it in the pics posted of the VF-25 where you can see the underside at an angle. It also explains why the fast packs for the legs extend past the knees a bit, like with the VF-1 and YF-19, to hide the gap created where the knee joint is bent in fighter mode.

So this choice was stupidly pointless, as even the old chunky monkeys had this aspect of the fast packs correct.

Also, I just want to ask Graham and the others: what toy would exemplify Bandai's "A" Game for you?

The Saint Seiya Cloth Myth line is an example of Bandai's "A" game. Although not mecha, you have an example of old school chunky monkey toys with the old Saint Seiya toys from the 80s, which they have re-released many times, and have even made some toys of later characters in the older style. They have also given slightly modified updated sculpts to the old style toys (see the Surplice Gold Saints with new hair sculpts). In addition to continuing the old style of toys, they went ahead and made the Saint Cloth Myth line. It's comparable to what Yamato did with improving valkyrie toys.

I have no "A" game example for mecha toys as I'm not a Gundam fan and I haven't bought any other Bandai mecha toys other than the VF-19 Fire Valkyrie. out of desperation when there was no such thing as Yamato.

Addition: pictures for quick example

Ex1: Old Chunky Monkey Saint Seiya toy of Gemini Saga

"A" game Saint Seiya Cloth Myth toy

Ex2: Old Chunky Monkey Saint Seiya toy of Siren Sorrento

"A" game Saint SEiya Cloth Myth Siren Sorrento (also shows the alternate fixed pose hands, cloth cape, and the "object" the armor parts form into)

Edited October 16, 2008 by Sumdumgai

[UN Spacy]

I'm also going to say the Saint Seiya figures are Bandai's "A" game.

Add to the list SOC Ideon, Voltes 5, and Raideen.

[protostar8]

Or Toynamis, Aoshimas, or Gakkens.

I don't really follow your argument. You're okay with the CMs Legioss not much resembling lineart because it's so far from the lineart?

Sorry, but none of them made a Beta (well, there was the uber expensive Gakken one that's uber rare too).

Toynami has an "iffy" Beta that might not ever really be released.

Bandai has three versions of the same thing. Monopolizing the market to say the least. The only issue is that the toy is the most expensive, worst looking one. It's only saving grace would be INCREDIBLE QC. Nothing short of that will even come close to making it worth the Yamato price tag.

Edited October 16, 2008 by protostar8

[Vifam7]

Also, I just want to ask Graham and the others: what toy would exemplify Bandai's "A" Game for you?

To me, it's the SoC SPEC Dragonar from Opening Silhouette. The toy is everything that a collector's toy of robot mech should be (IMHO). It's perfect in every way. I can't even recall Gundam getting this kind of treatment.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Vifam7

[anime52k8]

Well it seems that VF-25 model kits are selling well, so that's a good sign.

Companies don't operate that way. They don't drop an entire product franchise just because one product line doesn't sell.

And every company that wants to stay in business will drop a product if it does not make a profit. Also, in one way a smaller company may be quicker to drop a product than a big company since their margins are slimmer. A big company could absorb more hits than a small company.

so we'll get models, great. but that wont stop them form pulling the plug on aditional stuff. if the alto and ozma toy's don't sell well they may cut back the toy line. we may never see super parts or armor parts. we may never get a VF-27 toy or a VF-171. they may decide to cut the toy line short and not even release the luca/michel versions.

also it's possible they may just give up on doing macross toy's and the only thing we'll get is models.

[UN_MARINE]

Add to the list SOC Ideon, Voltes 5, and Raideen.

i contest the Voltes 5 being part of their A-game. 2 words: elbow joint.

but seriously, their SOC line pretty much showcases their A-game material aside from Gundam.

so where do we go from here? we've already been Yamatoed, now we're getting BanDaied ?

[Sumdumgai]

so we'll get models, great. but that wont stop them form pulling the plug on aditional stuff. if the alto and ozma toy's don't sell well they may cut back the toy line. we may never see super parts or armor parts. we may never get a VF-27 toy or a VF-171. they may decide to cut the toy line short and not even release the luca/michel versions.

also it's possible they may just give up on doing macross toy's and the only thing we'll get is models.

In short they would be pulling what they did with Macross 7. They were going to release more valkyrie toys (Miria's VF-17, the VF-19F or was it the VF-19S?) but decided not to because they weren't selling well for some odd reason...

[protostar8]

so we'll get models, great. but that wont stop them form pulling the plug on aditional stuff. if the alto and ozma toy's don't sell well they may cut back the toy line. we may never see super parts or armor parts. we may never get a VF-27 toy or a VF-171. they may decide to cut the toy line short and not even release the luca/michel versions.

also it's possible they may just give up on doing macross toy's and the only thing we'll get is models.

Although, that may be a good thing. When a company diversifies its resources, then the quality drops. If they focus all their attention on the 1/100's and models, we may start getting some righteous stuff (but apparently the models already are really good)...

[brouken]

Like the VF-1 and YF-19, the VF-25 needs to have the legs bent at the point where the legs come down for gerwalk, and at the knees for the leg portions of the fast packs to attach. You can see it in the pics posted of the VF-25 where you can see the underside at an angle. It also explains why the fast packs for the legs extend past the knees a bit, like with the VF-1 and YF-19, to hide the gap created where the knee joint is bent in fighter mode.

So this choice was stupidly pointless, as even the old chunky monkeys had this aspect of the fast packs correct.

The Saint Seiya Cloth Myth line is an example of Bandai's "A" game. Although not mecha, you have an example of old school chunky monkey toys with the old Saint Seiya toys from the 80s, which they have re-released many times, and have even made some toys of later characters in the older style. They have also given slightly modified updated sculpts to the old style toys (see the Surplice Gold Saints with new hair sculpts). In addition to continuing the old style of toys, they went ahead and made the Saint Cloth Myth line. It's comparable to what Yamato did with improving valkyrie toys.

I have no "A" game example for mecha toys as I'm not a Gundam fan and I haven't bought any other Bandai mecha toys other than the VF-19 Fire Valkyrie. out of desperation when there was no such thing as Yamato.

I don't have the Yamato YF-19 so I can't make a comparison based on that toy. But I do have the VF-1S version 2 and am pretty familiar with how the Super pack attaches to the legs in that valk.

While I don't know exactly how the Super/Armored packs attach to the VF-25, I have a reasonable idea how the legs are positioned in "naked" valkyrie mode. Based on the anime, I don't think the legs are positioned lower when the super packs are attached just like on the VF-1. The legs of the super and armored VF-25 are still straight and tucked into the space where the legs lock into the backpack during valkyrie mode. You can clearly see this in some of the rear shots of the super and armored VF-25s in the series.

Not that I'm defending Bandai or anything. Clearly, the spaces between the legs and the backpack in the DX are not line art accurate. Its just that when you consider the bulk added by the super and armored packs, it makes sense that they would leave some space to accomodate for that. I believe this is one instance where anime magic was used in the series so that the legs lock all the way through regardless of whether they're naked or not. If you can show me the pics where it clearly shows the legs bent in super/armored valk mode though, I would appreciate it very much.

And thanks to Graham and the others for giving their examples of Bandai's A game toys.

I only have one Bandai SOC so far (Voltes V), and while I'm pretty happy with it, it does have its own flaws and quirks too. I don't have any of the Saint Seiya toys since I'm not really a fan of that anime.

To those who have the DX Aquarion: how's the QC and durability of that toy? I've heard many good things about it, and am partly interested in investing in one. I think the DX Aquarion would also be a good yardstick for measuring what the potential durability of the DX VF-25 would be as well.

As far as I know, Bandai's DX line is clearly meant to be toys. They're loaded with tough materials and are purposefully chunky compared to their anime counterparts. Just look at the Sentai Rangers series DX toys and the DX Gundam toys. They won't win any awards for aesthetics that's for sure. But they're built like bricks and are meant to take the abuse of rough play and continued manipulation and transformation. They're different from the SOC line in that they're not exactly collector's grade display items.

Compared to the other DX toys however, I'm impressed with the detail Bandai has managed to put into the DX VF-25. While obviously not in the level of the Yamato valks, its clear that Bandai is considering that market segment with this toy as well. Its not as "kiddie" as the other DX toys.

This is all I have to say regarding its looks though. Aesthetics after all, is a highly subjective matter, and no amount of argument would change a person's opinion of what is fugly and uber sexy.

Edited October 16, 2008 by brouken

[Vifam7]

In short they would be pulling what they did with Macross 7. They were going to release more valkyrie toys (Miria's VF-17, the VF-19F or was it the VF-19S?) but decided not to because they weren't selling well for some odd reason...

We don't really know if the Mac7 toys sold well or not. Other than the Fire Valkyrie, they did release a VF-19S and a VF-17S. Certainly not the whole range from Mac7 but then Mac7 Valks weren't that popular to begin with.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Vifam7

[anime52k8]

"A" game Saint Seiya Cloth Myth toy

"A" game Saint SEiya Cloth Myth Siren Sorrento (also shows the alternate fixed pose hands, cloth cape, and the "object" the armor parts form into)

wow, that's "A" game for them... were screwed...

[protostar8]

wow, that's "A" game for them... were screwed...

But to be fair, I think that's how it looks in the anime too, so they did it correctly, though I personally don't like the show. Bandai "A" game should really always go back to Gundam. They make some very nice Gundam stuff.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Yeah they can have floppy stuff syndrone sometimes, atleast only on my bro's 1 (swan type don't know his name)

And yeah, "wtf?? these things are variable? Gundams aren't variable, dammit, why the f did they make Macross with variable fighters.. *kicks dirt*

Edited October 16, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[regult]

It may be that Bandai doesn't go for a model-like appearance because they actually sell a model kit.

.. which I guess brings up a question I honestly have for the folks who want it more model-like. Why don't you just build the model kits, when there are good ones (as there obviously are in this case)? Most of us toy collectors prefer toys to kits because we like the solidity and fun of a toy. If you don't care about 'play value', and 'accurate' appearance is your No. 1 priority, it seems like building model kits would be the way to go. Modern kits (like MGs) really aren't hard to build at all.

Yes, that's what some of us who criticize the overall looks of the DX have done or are in the process of doing, but that doesn't mean we don't like to see a 1/60 toy that is both accurate and still a toy, not a fragile model kit that requires intermediate skills to complete properly, but more sth you take out of the box and say "wow!!that looks great and it transforms!" instead of "oh, what a sturdy design, I can kick it around the room and it won't break" (which remains to be proven actually).

(edited "some" instead of "most"...didn't really conduct a poll on the issue, should not assume, but from number of posts in the 1/72 model thread, you do get an idea how many have turned or would like to turn to it, and then still wish there was a good toy as an option)

Edited October 16, 2008 by regult

[IXTL]

New pic of 1/60 VF-25G with Super parts

Edited October 16, 2008 by IXTL

[badboy00z]

That looks decent but that pose doesn't really show much.

[ShadowerV2]

I want Michel and Luca's! I wonder if they'll sell Luca's Ghosts in a seperate set...

[regult]

That looks decent but that pose doesn't really show much.

I really have nothing personal against Bandai (love their gunpla and their amazingly crafted kit of the VF-25), but if I wasn't a complete freak who saw hundreds of line art images and paused the anime for closer looks of the valks, I wouldn't even recognize this as Michel's...honest.

[regult]

New pic of 1/60 VF-25G with Super parts

Interesting...the wingroot guns seem to be a lot larger than in the anime or the model kit?! they also painted the inside of the wing gloves darkish grey, although you can now clearly see it has 0% details. There is also a visible gap between the parts in the knee assembly. The misplaced legs when Super Packs or Armors are on is now obvious: you can barely see the thighs (and this particular photo was taken from a low angle pointing up)!

Edited October 16, 2008 by regult

[Graham]

Interesting...the wingroot guns seem to be a lot larger than in the anime or the model kit?!

Note, with the Super and Armored packs the wing root guns have extra armor on top of them, which is why they look bigger than the unarmored guns of the model kit.

Graham

[regult]

Note, with the Super and Armored packs the wing root guns have extra armor on top of them, which is why they look bigger than the unarmored guns of the model kit.

Graham

Noted, thanks Graham for the clarification: 1 credit goes to Bandai.

[Graham]

New pic of 1/60 VF-25G with Super parts

What site are you getting the pic from?

I notice the sniper rifle doesn't have the pop up optical sight, or at least it's not shown.

Graham

[badboy00z]

I do like the coloring of it though. Lol.