ruskiiVFaussie Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Why doesn't someone shoot a pic of Yamato's 1/100 VF-0S and the 1/60 version pic over to them?
QuinJester Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Why doesn't someone shoot a pic of Yamato's 1/100 VF-0S and the 1/60 version pic over to them? And who precisely would you send those pictures to?
cube Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 And who precisely would you send those pictures to? Tim...y'know...Tim...from Bandai...tall guy...wears a hat...
ruskiiVFaussie Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 (edited) And who precisely would you send those pictures to? Duhy i dunno, m-m-maybe someone from bandai? Yeah Tim, that's the guy... Edited October 10, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie
Sumdumgai Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Don't forget to send a note in English and Japanese: "VF-25 = NOT A GUNDAM"
ruskiiVFaussie Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 no no no don't even mention that word, the word that must no be mentioned will only confuse them. Macross? VF-25? wtf?
anime52k8 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 ......So when will yamato get the Frontier licence again? Im thinkin i can hold out... when will yamato get the frontier license? NEVER it's not gonna happen people. if I'm still on this board (or if this board is even up and running) when yamato comes out with a VF-25, I'll personally buy one for every person on here that wants one.
ruskiiVFaussie Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 (edited) when will yamato get the frontier license? NEVER it's not gonna happen people. if I'm still on this board (or if this board is even up and running) when yamato comes out with a VF-25, I'll personally buy one for every person on here that wants one. lol i'll remember that. But yea, didn't Bandai have Macross II licence forever as well? Graham mentioned Bandai only have the licence for a set few years or somethin like that. So there is hope... in a few years... Edited October 10, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie
SchizophrenicMC Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 messing around with photoshop Look at the left arm, very closely. IT IS FLOATING! New transformation technology? The force? Invisible Duck Tape?
Sumdumgai Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Here's to hoping that either: a) Bandai does a V2 or decides to make a non-chogokin perfect-transformation VF-25 that actually looks good. b) Yamato gets the license some years from now. c) Another company that can make good transforming mecha comes along and picks up the license some years from now. Bandai is putting out their C-game for this toy. It's too bad they're not putting out their A-game.
anime52k8 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 lol i'll remember that. But yea, didn't Bandai have Macross II licence forever as well? Graham mentioned Bandai only have the licence for a set few years or somethin like that. So there is hope... in a few years... last I checked, Bandai STILL has the license for MacII and Mac7. (macII toy's are coming in the VF100 line by the way).
MacrossJunkie Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 I'm not that optimistic about Yamato being able to obtain the license to do the VF-25 or other Frontier mecha. Just judging from Bandai's past history with the Macross licenses, they'll probably hold on to the rights to produce the toys just so they can re-issue the DX 1/60s every now and then as they have with the 1/55 chunkys and the 1/65 M7 valks with no improvements of substance other than possibly adding some more tampo printing or other minor things. It's a shame that they didn't put a comparative amount of effort as they have with some of the other chogokin toys they have made. Just look at the Aquarion which far surpasses the VF-25 in complexity of design. I'm not particularly a fan of the Aquarion, but I can appreciate the difficulty of designing and making something where not only do the three component parts transform into vehicles on their own, but can be reconfigured into many different robot combinations and also retain some measure of posability as well. Bandai managed to make an awesome looking toy with that. They have the engineering know how and if they had put half that effort into making the DX VF-25, I think we would have had something that more Macross fans would have been happy with.
ruskiiVFaussie Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 last I checked, Bandai STILL has the license for MacII and Mac7. (macII toy's are coming in the VF100 line by the way). Yeah i can't wait to get some of them MII 1/100's! bout time they got off their ass and did something with it..
Graham Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 I notice on the latest pic of the VF-25F Alto Battroid (attached) that there appears to be no surface detail on the inside of the backplate. Look at the photo and you can see it looks devoide of detail. This is in sharp contrast to the model kit which has that area chock full of detail, as per Kawamori-sans published lineart. Graham
brouken Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 (edited) I think what's happening here is that people's expectations of Bandai are a little too high. Sure Bandai is much bigger company than Yamato, with far more resources to spend on R&D and engineering for their toys. But you have to realize that Bandai has a LOT of toy lines. Their resources have to be divided across all of the divisions handling these toy lines. So in the end, its the budget of the division that determines the quality of their product. Economics dictate the that the quality of the product is directly proportionate to its retail price (although this is not always the case, taking Sony's PS3 as an example). You cannot expect Studio Half Eye level engineering on the VF-25 for the price Bandai is asking for it. But then what about Yamato? Their VF-1 ver. 2 and YF-21 are well engineered toys and they're selling for almost the same price as the VF-25. But then, you have to ask, how long did it take for them to reach that level of engineering prowess? How much money and effort did they put into it? Quite a lot I'd say. This is not to say that Bandai CAN'T do a better job. It's just that Macross is not their milk and butter. That honor goes to the big "G" of course. If they spent the same amount of time and effort Yamato put into Macross, then I'm sure they can put out some really good products from that line. Heck, with their resources, they would probably take less time to get to Yamato's level now. That is of course, IF Bandai decides to put more into the Macross line. Ultimately, its the consumer response that will determine whether Bandai would pour more resources into developing better Macross toys. Which means that if the DX tanks, then its probably safe to assume that Bandai will drop the license for Yamato and other toy companies to pick up. In other words, just vote with your money. Edited October 10, 2008 by brouken
CF18 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 This is not to say that Bandai CAN'T do a better job. It's just that Macross is not their milk and butter. That honor goes to the big "G" of course. If they spent the same amount of time and effort Yamato put into Macross, then I'm sure they can put out some really good products from that line. Heck, with their resources, they would probably take less time to get to Yamato's level now. Actually, it is not good for Macross if you look at how Bandai handle Gundam. Bandai always release basic Gunpla at a rate that match the TV broadcast, and some have really lousy job, e.g. the under-size back pack on the 1:100 Aile-Strike Gundam. Or you may see something like one week after the release of HCM-Pro 00, they announce the HCM-Pro 00 G-Box version, screwing all the early customers. Also new Gundam anime are being made in part to drive new Gunpla and toy sale, although it is not as bad as Transformers. If Macross is being treated like Gundam, then we may see significantly less creative freedom in new Macross series. Remember the red Vajra transformation in Frontier episode 1? We never see that again. It is obvious they try to productize that Vajra and we saw a 1:72 prototype once, but they probably noticed that it's not popular so they dropped it. If the show is treated like Gundam the bugs would not left the drawing board, and we would get something they can sell like mecha-vajra, and the VF-25 model would have arrived 6 months earlier, but it will have bad proportion and lousy transformation.
VFTF1 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Their VF-1 ver. 2 and YF-21 are well engineered toys and they're selling for almost the same price as the VF-25. It is? The YF-21 is far more expensive than either the VF-1 or the VF-25; and I imagine that this is probably because the VF-1 and VF-25 are much smaller than the YF-21... Pete
anime52k8 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 It is? The YF-21 is far more expensive than either the VF-1 or the VF-25; and I imagine that this is probably because the VF-1 and VF-25 are much smaller than the YF-21... Pete the VF-25 should be about the same size as the YF-21, and the YF-21 cost about twice as much as the VF-25 should. the VF-1 is tiny compared to both. hence why the VF-1 is cheaper
anime52k8 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Remember the red Vajra transformation in Frontier episode 1? We never see that again. It is obvious they try to productize that Vajra and we saw a 1:72 prototype once, but they probably noticed that it's not popular so they dropped it. If the show is treated like Gundam the bugs would not left the drawing board, and we would get something they can sell like mecha-vajra, and the VF-25 model would have arrived 6 months earlier, but it will have bad proportion and lousy transformation. at what point did the vajra transform? I rewatched that episode and I don't see anything that isn't done in every other episode that vajra show up in. and there's still a possibility that the vajra model will come out. (they're probably just waiting until after the rest of the VF-25's are out.)
cyde01 Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 i think people's expectations of bandai are high because bandai's 1/72 scale model looks so great, better in fact then the 1/60 dx. all of the complaints mentioned about the 1/60 dx sculpt are non-existent in the 1/72 scale model. it just doesn't make sense that they could make the model have perfect proportions and not have a larger scale toy have perfect proportions.
EXO Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 the vajra didnt transform but it does release wings once it hits atmosphere.
David Hingtgen Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 Vajras sorta transform--it's even shown twice in the schematic that Leon and Luca(?) view.
UN_MARINE Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 i think people's expectations of bandai are high because bandai's 1/72 scale model looks so great, better in fact then the 1/60 dx. that's kind of the point right here. they've proven that they can actually do it right. but it seems like they intentionally dropped the ball or stopped caring with the 1/60 DX. considering the price tag on the DX, the "it's not a collector product, it's a kid's toy, that's why it's chunky" argument doesn't make sense. if they priced it at about 2/3 or half, then it wouldn't be such a big deal. for the +/- 12k yen tag, you bet they should have made something better. for the same reason, the question here is... why didn't they just scale & toughen up the 1/72? from all the reviews, it seems like the 1/72 is already half-toy.
Sumdumgai Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 If I could find the post where it was stated that it was Bandai's decision to go this chunky route, I'd post a link to it. It was a decision to go craptastic. Their target isn't the collector, but the newer fans with money. If they were targeting the collector, they would have had something to bring competition to Yamato. As it is, targeting newer less selective fans of Macross they stand to gain a lot of money. So what if the collector fans don't like it? They'll still be making a bunch of money from people who think it looks fine, or are desperate for a VF-25. Bandai is the only game in town for Macross Frontier stuff. You get the 1/60 porkchop, the 1/72 model kit, or the 1/100 partsformer. If you don't like any of them, you don't get a VF-25.
Graham Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 I'd really like to know do newer, less selective fans prefer a chunky or something more anime accurate? For me whenever I buy a toy, whether it's Macross or any other anime, I always want the toy as detailed and accurate as possible. Graham
Sumdumgai Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 I want the toy to look as close as possible to what is depicted in the anime. I'm more lenient on things that were hand animated, like the valkyries up to Macross 7. From Macross Zero onwards, I'm much more exacting as there are digital models to get the proportions more correct and parts in the right spots. What matters is the essence of the design when brought to toy form. The VF-1s by Yamato have progressively gotten better in my eyes. The YF-19, though skinny in battroid, and not perfect in fighter, still has the essence of the YF-19. The 1/60 VF-25 lacks the essence of the VF-25 in every single mode.
Vifam7 Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) I'd really like to know do newer, less selective fans prefer a chunky or something more anime accurate? For me whenever I buy a toy, whether it's Macross or any other anime, I always want the toy as detailed and accurate as possible. Graham Ofcourse every fan out there wants a toy as detailed and accurate as possible. Key words being "as possible". Because it's not just detail and accuracy that fans want. That's where things get a bit tricky. Edited October 11, 2008 by Vifam7
doodler7 Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 I'd really like to know do newer, less selective fans prefer a chunky or something more anime accurate? For me whenever I buy a toy, whether it's Macross or any other anime, I always want the toy as detailed and accurate as possible. Graham Heck yah! Especially if when damn figures are well over $200 USD!
sqidd Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 I'd really like to know do newer, less selective fans prefer a chunky or something more anime accurate? Graham I am a newer collector (since I joined the forum) but I wouldn’t call myself less selective. I am not into the Anime side of this hobby nearly as much as other members of the forum though. I watched RT when I was a kid and I just watched all of the Macross SDF, Mac+ and Mac Zero in the last year to see what I had missed as a kid (SDF) and since. I enjoyed them very much but I doubt I will ever load them up and watch them again. Back to the toys though. I got my first couple of toys because I thought they were cool and I had wished I had saved mine from when I was a kid. The toy that started all of this for me was the Gakken Ride Armor (yes I know that’s not Macross). I saw a mint one on eBay and picked it up because I did have a few of those when I was a kid and I am a huge motorcycle fan anyway. I certainly didn’t get it because it’s line accurate though. That thing is horrible! But it does bring back some fond childhood memories for me and it’s just plain cool. Once I got the Ride Armor toy I figured I had better get a VF-1 to because I was also way into them when I was a kid. Of course when I was a kid I had to pretend my Jetfire was a VF-1 because I had never seen a real Macross (or RT) toy. I even tried a couple of Jetfire-VF-1S conversions when I was a kid because the VF-1S always stuck with me as my favorite. The conversions I attempted were miserable failures though. When I went in search of a cool VF-1S to go with my newly acquired Ride Armor I stumbled across the Toynami Mastercrap collection stuff (I was searching RT not Macross) and got a couple of them. At this point I still didn’t know the difference between Macross and RT though. Actually I didn’t even know what Macross was. Then I stumbled across this forum and made a huge mistake by calling a Valkyrie a Veritech in one of my first posts and got pounced on by half the forum and directed to the section with the history of Macross/RT. After reading the sordid history of RT I wanted to get rid of the Mastercrap stuff I got and get myself some “real” Macross toys. At that point I did a search on Macross toys and came across the Yamato 1/48 line. I ordered one, got it, opened it up, and was hooked! To me the Yamato VF-1S 1/48 was the absolute ultimate when it came to getting what I had always wanted when I was a kid. Did I even notice that it wasn’t exactly line art accurate? Nope. If I had noticed would I have cared? Nope. I thought it was the coolest thing I had ever seen. The only way it could have been better is if they were even bigger. Shortly after getting my first VF-1S I saw a picture of a YF-19 1/60 and had to have it. At the time I had no idea what it was from aside from being some sort of Macross toy. I had no line art in my head to compare it too and I didn’t even know there was such a thing as Mac+. All I knew was that it looked incredible and I had to have one. Then I saw a VF-0S 1/60 and thought it was beautiful! Once again, not knowing where it landed in the Macross universe and having no line art in my head to compare it too. Of course everyone knows that at that point I was doomed and I got a lot more Yamato Macross toys. I was buying them because I thought they just plain looked cool. I loved sitting in my office and just looking at them on my shelves. To me they were purely art. They had no connection to the Macross shows/movies because I had still not seen them yet. So to sort of answer your question Graham, line art accuracy was a non issue for me. I liked how they looked in a vacuum (no line art and no shows to compare them too). Even after watching all of the Macross shows/Movies it never once entered my mind that the toys I had on my shelves were not 100% line art accurate. I thought they looked cool in the shows and I liked how they looked on the shelf. A total non issue. I watched the shows for entertainment and I collected the toys because they looked cool. Now for the second part of your question about newer collectors liking them to be “chunky”. I have to admit that I do like the slightly chunky look opposed to some of the more line art accurate stuff. A perfect example is the 1/48 VF-1S vs. the 1/60 VF-1S ver.2. I think the 1/48 simply looks better. It looks tougher, meaner and just plain menacing. Don’t get me wrong, the 1/60 ver.2 is very attractive, but the thinner dimensions don’t do it for me as much as it’s bigger brother. I won’t be purchasing any of the 1/60 ver.2 toys unless they are offering something that was not offered in 1/48 scale. For example I ordered a 1/60 ver.2 VF-1A Higgy with S&S parts but skipped the VF-1S. There is a limit to the “chunky” look though for me. The Chunky Monkeys don’t do a thing for me. I don’t find them attractive. Now for the VF-25 and it’s “chunkiness” which is the topic of discussion here. I have not seen any line art of the VF-25 and I have not seen one episode of Frontier yet. So when I look at the examples from Bandai I am seeing it in a vacuum, and I think it looks cool. If the toy ends up having decent quality I will most likely get one because I think it would look great on my shelf. It’s a great looking toy. If after I see some line art or an episode will the “chunkiness” bother me? I doubt it. It’s still a good looking toy. So to sum up the perspective of a “new collector” I am not very concerned about line art accuracy as long as the toy looks cool. I am purchasing a toy that I think is attractive and turns me on. I am not trying to buy a “piece” of the show. Does that make sense? And as far as “chunkiness” in general I gotta say as long as it’s not overboard (like the chunky monkeys) I like the look. As far as line art accuracy goes I am attracted to the idea though. Who wouldn’t be? It is certainly appealing to have a toy that in your head is “perfect” and no compromises were made. It’s the same type of attraction as wanting to have one of every 1/48 for your collection. I guess I am just easy to please. If it’s not exactly line accurate and still looks stunning (1/48’s) I want one. If it is line art accurate and is stunning (1/60 ver.2) I want one of those too. To me it simply boils down to if I think it’s attractive or not on its own merits. Line art accuracy is a secondary consideration. Now in regards to why Bandai may have decided to add some chunkiness to the VF-25. From reading this thread I think it is universally agreed upon that if Bandai wanted to make them more or 100% line accurate they have the capability of doing it. So then the question arises why make them chunky? I doubt that it was intentionally done because a market study showed that the largest buying demographic prefers a chunky version. I would be surprised if they even did a market study at all. Studies like that are very expensive and when dealing with a product like this very hard to get a large enough test group to make the data you do get anything more than a probability, let alone definitive findings. I would bet money that the decision on the final design was made completely in house. Secondly is manufacturing techniques. Manufacturing is very difficult. The most difficulty is being able to manufacture something is finding a way of doing it where you can meet your desired selling price and keep the cost of each unit to where you want it so you can make money at it. A lot of what goes into a final design is based on how easy it will be to produce. There are millions of variables that will raise or lower the cost of production. Some are obvious like the amount of material or what kind is used for example. But some are not so obvious like is the assembly line big enough or efficient enough to keep costs down. If they have to re-tool a lot of their existing infrastructure to produce a product it will have to be factored into the cost per unit. And that re-tooling can cost an astounding amount of money. Another example is that in a certain scale certain shaped pieces may require more steps to make or may need to be made out of multiple smaller pieces. This also can dramatically affect the cost of production. And the above examples are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to manufacturing decisions. Someone earlier had mentioned why not just “grow” the 1/72 scale design to 1/60 and be done with it. That idea sounds simple, but in practice it is not. Smaller pieces are inherently stronger than larger ones are because the flat unsupported sides of a piece are closer to a corner or a “bend” which is what gives the part its strength. If you were to simply “grow” that part and all other things remained equal the larger parts would be more prone to breakage because there would be bigger stretches of material that are effectively not reinforced. A good analogy for this is why the Earth doesn’t have a population of large (4ft long) insects that have exoskeletons. At a certain point to achieve that larger size the exoskeleton would need to weigh so much that the insect would effectively become uncompetitive in the food chain and die out immediately. When scaling something up the changes are exponential, not linear. All of the examples above are possible reasons why the 1/60 was designed the way it was. And unless you had a background in Business Marketing you wouldn’t have be expected to consider things like market studies (I have my BBA with a minor in Marketing) or production challenges and how quickly they can make the cost per unit soar right past the targeted amount (at this point in my life I design and manufacture parts/ products for motorcycles). I couldn’t possibly express how production and marketing decisions effect the per unit cost of a product. Everything boils down a cost/benefit analysis. Absolutely everything. I hope whomever reads this enjoys it and helps them to understand this from a different perspective. And it would be great if what I have written explains why things may be the way they are and because of that some of you may be more likely be ably to look past some of the VF-25’s shortcomings and enjoy the toy for what it is. But please understand I am not trying in any way to pick a fight with those of you that think line art accuracy is incredibly important. I completely understand what drives people to want them that way and I respect that a lot. In my eyes line art accuracy doesn’t boil down to a right or wrong situation. Each of us has their own drive and reasoning to purchase what they do. I just thought I could answer Graham’s question about “less selective buyers”. Which I would rather define as “different criteria buyers”. I don’t consider my buying practices “less selective” in any way. I just have different motivations and goals. This is one of those wonderful situations where everyone can be right. And for those of you that read this whole post, thanks. It took me forever to put together.
VFTF1 Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 I'd really like to know do newer, less selective fans prefer a chunky or something more anime accurate? For me whenever I buy a toy, whether it's Macross or any other anime, I always want the toy as detailed and accurate as possible. Graham Having grown up a Transformers fan, I was just used to the idea that "show accurate" basically meant this: So maybe my perspective is tainted by bad habits... Pete
zammaz Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 I am a newer collector (since I joined the forum) but I wouldn’t call myself less selective. I am not into the Anime side of this hobby nearly as much as other members of the forum though. I watched RT when I was a kid and I just watched all of the Macross SDF, Mac+ and Mac Zero in the last year to see what I had missed as a kid (SDF) and since. I enjoyed them very much but I doubt I will ever load them up and watch them again. Back to the toys though. I got my first couple of toys because I thought they were cool and I had wished I had saved mine from when I was a kid. The toy that started all of this for me was the Gakken Ride Armor (yes I know that’s not Macross). I saw a mint one on eBay and picked it up because I did have a few of those when I was a kid and I am a huge motorcycle fan anyway. I certainly didn’t get it because it’s line accurate though. That thing is horrible! But it does bring back some fond childhood memories for me and it’s just plain cool. Once I got the Ride Armor toy I figured I had better get a VF-1 to because I was also way into them when I was a kid. Of course when I was a kid I had to pretend my Jetfire was a VF-1 because I had never seen a real Macross (or RT) toy. I even tried a couple of Jetfire-VF-1S conversions when I was a kid because the VF-1S always stuck with me as my favorite. The conversions I attempted were miserable failures though. When I went in search of a cool VF-1S to go with my newly acquired Ride Armor I stumbled across the Toynami Mastercrap collection stuff (I was searching RT not Macross) and got a couple of them. At this point I still didn’t know the difference between Macross and RT though. Actually I didn’t even know what Macross was. Then I stumbled across this forum and made a huge mistake by calling a Valkyrie a Veritech in one of my first posts and got pounced on by half the forum and directed to the section with the history of Macross/RT. After reading the sordid history of RT I wanted to get rid of the Mastercrap stuff I got and get myself some “real” Macross toys. At that point I did a search on Macross toys and came across the Yamato 1/48 line. I ordered one, got it, opened it up, and was hooked! To me the Yamato VF-1S 1/48 was the absolute ultimate when it came to getting what I had always wanted when I was a kid. Did I even notice that it wasn’t exactly line art accurate? Nope. If I had noticed would I have cared? Nope. I thought it was the coolest thing I had ever seen. The only way it could have been better is if they were even bigger. Shortly after getting my first VF-1S I saw a picture of a YF-19 1/60 and had to have it. At the time I had no idea what it was from aside from being some sort of Macross toy. I had no line art in my head to compare it too and I didn’t even know there was such a thing as Mac+. All I knew was that it looked incredible and I had to have one. Then I saw a VF-0S 1/60 and thought it was beautiful! Once again, not knowing where it landed in the Macross universe and having no line art in my head to compare it too. Of course everyone knows that at that point I was doomed and I got a lot more Yamato Macross toys. I was buying them because I thought they just plain looked cool. I loved sitting in my office and just looking at them on my shelves. To me they were purely art. They had no connection to the Macross shows/movies because I had still not seen them yet. So to sort of answer your question Graham, line art accuracy was a non issue for me. I liked how they looked in a vacuum (no line art and no shows to compare them too). Even after watching all of the Macross shows/Movies it never once entered my mind that the toys I had on my shelves were not 100% line art accurate. I thought they looked cool in the shows and I liked how they looked on the shelf. A total non issue. I watched the shows for entertainment and I collected the toys because they looked cool. Now for the second part of your question about newer collectors liking them to be “chunky”. I have to admit that I do like the slightly chunky look opposed to some of the more line art accurate stuff. A perfect example is the 1/48 VF-1S vs. the 1/60 VF-1S ver.2. I think the 1/48 simply looks better. It looks tougher, meaner and just plain menacing. Don’t get me wrong, the 1/60 ver.2 is very attractive, but the thinner dimensions don’t do it for me as much as it’s bigger brother. I won’t be purchasing any of the 1/60 ver.2 toys unless they are offering something that was not offered in 1/48 scale. For example I ordered a 1/60 ver.2 VF-1A Higgy with S&S parts but skipped the VF-1S. There is a limit to the “chunky” look though for me. The Chunky Monkeys don’t do a thing for me. I don’t find them attractive. Now for the VF-25 and it’s “chunkiness” which is the topic of discussion here. I have not seen any line art of the VF-25 and I have not seen one episode of Frontier yet. So when I look at the examples from Bandai I am seeing it in a vacuum, and I think it looks cool. If the toy ends up having decent quality I will most likely get one because I think it would look great on my shelf. It’s a great looking toy. If after I see some line art or an episode will the “chunkiness” bother me? I doubt it. It’s still a good looking toy. So to sum up the perspective of a “new collector” I am not very concerned about line art accuracy as long as the toy looks cool. I am purchasing a toy that I think is attractive and turns me on. I am not trying to buy a “piece” of the show. Does that make sense? And as far as “chunkiness” in general I gotta say as long as it’s not overboard (like the chunky monkeys) I like the look. As far as line art accuracy goes I am attracted to the idea though. Who wouldn’t be? It is certainly appealing to have a toy that in your head is “perfect” and no compromises were made. It’s the same type of attraction as wanting to have one of every 1/48 for your collection. I guess I am just easy to please. If it’s not exactly line accurate and still looks stunning (1/48’s) I want one. If it is line art accurate and is stunning (1/60 ver.2) I want one of those too. To me it simply boils down to if I think it’s attractive or not on its own merits. Line art accuracy is a secondary consideration. Now in regards to why Bandai may have decided to add some chunkiness to the VF-25. From reading this thread I think it is universally agreed upon that if Bandai wanted to make them more or 100% line accurate they have the capability of doing it. So then the question arises why make them chunky? I doubt that it was intentionally done because a market study showed that the largest buying demographic prefers a chunky version. I would be surprised if they even did a market study at all. Studies like that are very expensive and when dealing with a product like this very hard to get a large enough test group to make the data you do get anything more than a probability, let alone definitive findings. I would bet money that the decision on the final design was made completely in house. Secondly is manufacturing techniques. Manufacturing is very difficult. The most difficulty is being able to manufacture something is finding a way of doing it where you can meet your desired selling price and keep the cost of each unit to where you want it so you can make money at it. A lot of what goes into a final design is based on how easy it will be to produce. There are millions of variables that will raise or lower the cost of production. Some are obvious like the amount of material or what kind is used for example. But some are not so obvious like is the assembly line big enough or efficient enough to keep costs down. If they have to re-tool a lot of their existing infrastructure to produce a product it will have to be factored into the cost per unit. And that re-tooling can cost an astounding amount of money. Another example is that in a certain scale certain shaped pieces may require more steps to make or may need to be made out of multiple smaller pieces. This also can dramatically affect the cost of production. And the above examples are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to manufacturing decisions. Someone earlier had mentioned why not just “grow” the 1/72 scale design to 1/60 and be done with it. That idea sounds simple, but in practice it is not. Smaller pieces are inherently stronger than larger ones are because the flat unsupported sides of a piece are closer to a corner or a “bend” which is what gives the part its strength. If you were to simply “grow” that part and all other things remained equal the larger parts would be more prone to breakage because there would be bigger stretches of material that are effectively not reinforced. A good analogy for this is why the Earth doesn’t have a population of large (4ft long) insects that have exoskeletons. At a certain point to achieve that larger size the exoskeleton would need to weigh so much that the insect would effectively become uncompetitive in the food chain and die out immediately. When scaling something up the changes are exponential, not linear. All of the examples above are possible reasons why the 1/60 was designed the way it was. And unless you had a background in Business Marketing you wouldn’t have be expected to consider things like market studies (I have my BBA with a minor in Marketing) or production challenges and how quickly they can make the cost per unit soar right past the targeted amount (at this point in my life I design and manufacture parts/ products for motorcycles). I couldn’t possibly express how production and marketing decisions effect the per unit cost of a product. Everything boils down a cost/benefit analysis. Absolutely everything. I hope whomever reads this enjoys it and helps them to understand this from a different perspective. And it would be great if what I have written explains why things may be the way they are and because of that some of you may be more likely be ably to look past some of the VF-25’s shortcomings and enjoy the toy for what it is. But please understand I am not trying in any way to pick a fight with those of you that think line art accuracy is incredibly important. I completely understand what drives people to want them that way and I respect that a lot. In my eyes line art accuracy doesn’t boil down to a right or wrong situation. Each of us has their own drive and reasoning to purchase what they do. I just thought I could answer Graham’s question about “less selective buyers”. Which I would rather define as “different criteria buyers”. I don’t consider my buying practices “less selective” in any way. I just have different motivations and goals. This is one of those wonderful situations where everyone can be right. And for those of you that read this whole post, thanks. It took me forever to put together. thanx sqidd that was very informative and absolutly correct first of all sorry for my english . i have a question, how many of you collectors wet your T shirt when a young kid approch your high end toys for the fear of braking them by mishandeling it? well i dont have kids but i imagine that would be painfull for both side collector and the young child (lets say the future potensial collector). i am not a collector i am just an industrial designer intrested in toy design and the interaction between toy and user its soon to say but in my oppinon this vf-25 dx has been designed to atract both sector (the collectors and yonger generation) by simplisizing it. this means designing a TOY (not a high end collector display item) a toy which is ment to be handle by adults and younger kids (age of+12) and by this they increase the interaction between collector-toy-young generation future collector and this theory leads to a more durable and simple to transform product this vf-25 dx from bandai is a very smart product
sucker4meltrans Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 i love my 1/55 chunky monkey thank very much
UN_MARINE Posted October 11, 2008 Posted October 11, 2008 touche' sqidd, touche'. admittedly, i wasn't paying attention to the VF-25 anything up until recently. i don't mind the chunkiness as much as i do the price tag. for the price tag close to a 1/48, the chunkyness just feels out of place & i feel they should've just gone all out with it. since i've warmed up to the 25, i think i'll grab one of these. afterall, all my "top of the list" favorite Valks have been/are being done by Yamato anyway now i'm just i hoping these are near indestructible as they're supposed to be.
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