Bandai 1/60 DX VF-25 transformable toy thread

[badboy00z]

Whatever happened to the "send pictures to mod first before posting" rule?

[eugimon]

Nothing craptastic gets a pass in my book.

Eugimon... If anyone else gave just half the amount of criticism you gave the DX to a yamato product, you would have called them a whiney, nit-picking, dead horse beater... Many here, including myself, agree with you, the DX sucks... but you're making it grossly apparent that you're just as biased as all the " yamato-haters" were... If I can only pull up and repost the crap you gave Dave and myself for complaining about the yf-19... hehehehe~

Good thing, I'm lazy....

hah, and yet I'm the biggest hater on this board for the yamato konig and I've been one of the most vocal criticizers of the vf-0 arm fiasco (I even had my vf-0s' shattered shoulder as my avatar) and I have yet to join the "the 1/60 ver 2 vf-1 is the greatest thing ever" club and I've been pretty vocal about it's design compromises and I've been vocal about yamato still not fixing the shoulder gap on the 1/60 yf-19 in fighter mode. So, it's nice that you can pick and choose what you want to call me, like Kawamori, you must like retcons

And for the record, there's a HUGE difference between going on about an imaginary angling of the wings and not putting the freaking hip joint in the right place. Oh, and while it wasn't you, also a difference between comparing the toy to actual animation samples and comparing it endlessly to a doctored example of "line art".

Please. It's not about caring. It's about what design and direction they decided upon (however wrong it may feel to some of us).

And really, if they really didn't care then why did they bother sponsoring Macross Frontier in the first place?

Yeah, because obviously MF got only the best animators and the best time slot...

Wasn't there talk not too long ago about how once Yamato puts something into the CAD stage, that what we are seeing is pretty much what we are getting?

Again... has that CAD even been confirmed as legit? And my point was that there is a far greater chance of fixing something while it's in CAD than it is after molds have been made, molds complete with surface details and panel lining.

Edited October 8, 2008 by eugimon

[miriya]

I am sold.

[dizman]

I hate to support the reason why it looks so.... well wrong but can the model support fast armor and full armor? I doubt it. The only reason I can see that they mucked this up so bad is because bandai was planning on releasing the fast and full armor parts somewhere down the road. They designed this thing to be hopefully sturdy so it can support the extra weight, its only a theory and unless the armored ver. looks amazing its not worth the compromise to me.

[Fly4victory]

They designed this thing to be hopefully sturdy so it can support the extra weight, its only a theory and unless the armored ver. looks amazing its not worth the compromise to me.

Interesting Point, Dizman.

Looking at the pictures again, I wonder if it is possible to open the feet without the ankles extended.

While it would not be accurate at least it will make the battroid look better.

[thankheaven]

If they fixed the crotch area, the way the legs are attached in fightermode and gave it PROPER landing gear i might buy it.

The paintschemes and colors are really nice but i don't see any improvements on the actual toy itself.

I could live with the battroid mode if the fightermode looked great and i could live with the fightermode if the battroid mode looked great. But to me none of the modes look any good.

Only version im thinking of buying is Luca's, mostly because its the most unique of them and it should come with Fastpacks.

And i'd buy an armored VF-25 no matter how crappy it looks.

Edited October 8, 2008 by thankheaven

[valhary]

i have a question where is the neck in the vf 25s???

[David Hingtgen]

Whatever happened to the "send pictures to mod first before posting" rule?

That was actually removed if you look closely. Now that the 1/72 is actually out, we have less of a problem with it being confused with the 1/60. Though now we get 1/100 confusion...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

hah, and yet I'm the biggest hater on this board for the yamato konig and I've been one of the most vocal criticizers of the vf-0 arm fiasco (I even had my vf-0s' shattered shoulder as my avatar)

Yea but you are the same guy that is willing to pay to fix something that is broke. You are the one who made the quote "you can fix broke, but you can't fix ugly".

I hate to support the reason why it looks so.... well wrong but can the model support fast armor and full armor? I doubt it. The only reason I can see that they mucked this up so bad is because bandai was planning on releasing the fast and full armor parts somewhere down the road. They designed this thing to be hopefully sturdy so it can support the extra weight, its only a theory and unless the armored ver. looks amazing its not worth the compromise to me.

Probably true

[eugimon]

Yea but you are the same guy that is willing to pay to fix something that is broke. You are the one who made the quote "you can fix broke, but you can't fix ugly".

And I stand by that. I'm handy with tools and I can swap parts, glue and in a pinch even do some minor modifications and fabrication. What I can't do is fix a broken transformation system, hide bulky external hinges and reposition limbs and joints to their proper locations.

And again, missing the point. My post was a direct rebuttal to Nani's claim that I'm some sort of die hard yammie-fanboy who's just harping on the DX because it wasn't made by one and only true love.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

The feeling I get from Japanese fans is that - if you want accuracy you build a model kit. And that chogoukins are for kids or nostalgia old-timers.

This mindset may be related to how Gundam is also treated. Ever since the advent of Gundam and the "real robot" genre, plastic models have been the backbone of its success. Fans themselves seem to snort at buying a "toy". Perhaps the realism of the mecha and the sophisticated stories suggested that (insert anime title) is more adult-like and thus = kids buy toys - adults build models mindset.

Yes, and the fact that Varibale fighters are just that, Variable, and they are NOT meant to be models with flimsy plastics, and are

highly complex in design compared to a Mech that is made purely for hand to hand. (the flying brick variable Gundams don't count).

So it really is that bandai are ignorant on not applying more care with a "toy" release, fobbing it off like "hey it's not a perfect grade model like

our Gundams, it's just a toy.." totally miss-understanding the importance of developing a HIGH END Variable Fighter.

Yamato sure does though. (except i'm really pissed off on some of their short-cuts lately ala VF-1D canopy, VF-1 1 seater crap)

I'm over this now, i understand Bandai now pretty much, i'll wait patiently in the next 2 months before cancelling.

Edited October 8, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Pretty much.Perfection my a55, look at the tailfins on the new VF-11 and the broken arm VF-1S 2.0 Maybe perfection in looks, but that's about it, and even then, the only one that aimed for a balanced look was the new VF-1, everything else before emphasized the fighter mode, and the new VF-11's fighter mode is disappointing due to tiny tail fins. To play with the big boys, you have to up the quality control. Yes they have improved. No it still isn't perfect. Yes you can fix an arm but shouldn't have to pay $30 more to do so and fix a new toy out of the box.

I hold hopes that the final test shots of the 25 have detailed, longer landing gear, provision for installation of a 2nd cockpit, and of course, accurate hip placement.

Yeah looks, I meant to say striving for perfection in Design and Lineart (albeit not always the case but almost), YF-21 is pretty much wow.

QC is QC, That's another thing to bitch about when they (bandai's VF-25s) reach the shops.

The v.2 VF-1 is a bit better engineered and closer to it's lineart than this DX 1/60 isn't it? But yeah, anyways.

Edited October 8, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[Vifam7]

Yes, and the fact that Varibale fighters are just that, Variable, and they are NOT meant to be models with flimsy plastics, and are

highly complex in design compared to a Mech that is made purely for hand to hand. (the flying brick variable Gundams don't count).

So it really is that bandai are ignorant on not applying more care with a "toy" release, fobbing it off like "hey it's not a perfect grade model like

our Gundams, it's just a toy.." totally miss-understanding the importance of developing a HIGH END Variable Fighter.

Yamato sure does though. (except i'm really pissed off on some of their short-cuts lately ala VF-1D canopy, VF-1 1 seater crap)

I'm over this now, i understand Bandai now pretty much, i'll wait patiently in the next 2 months before cancelling.

I was talking more about the fans than the company.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

I was talking more about the fans than the company.

Yeah i should have said i was changing my direction of rant at the company lol, sorry mate.

Edited October 9, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

There are good and bad point to both companies.

Yamato keeps making mistakes, or first releases have problems but they are not as big as bandai still. Maybe that's why people think fans of the yamato toys are yamato fanboys? That's not necessarily true: yamato do get credit where its due because the good outweighs the bad. But that doesn't mean those who buy their stuff are not as pissed off as the next guy when stuff doesn't meet their standard. (after all they are paying the money and know about all the faults - they are expensive for what you get)

Bandai offer better price, but given that they like chunky style of robot for toys it may put off fans of tall slim and lean robot that we see from the anime. Slim and lean suggest speed. Squat makes it look tougher, but if the anime had them skinny that would be preferred by most people imo.

Two wrongs don't make a right: if both companies fix their problems the world would be better! Personally I want them to both succeed. Rather than rejoice that one must fail just so I can say "nyah nyah I told you I was right nyah nyah" which is what I think anti-yamato and anti-bandai people WANT to happen. I mean really why can't they BOTH just NOT suck in the above things they currently suck at?

Edited October 9, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sumdumgai]

IIRC Bandai is targeting the general audience that watches Macross Frontier, the chogokin fans, and old school-chunky monkey lovers with this toy. It was a decision to design it like this, chunkish. Because of the target audience being more general, they didn't have to design something that looks as nice as the 1/72 model or something that Yamato would have likely put out. General new fans would be less exacting on how the toy should look in all modes, as being new to the Macross series, it's not like they'd be too familiar with the design or how good looking of a design Yamato can put out.

Bandai can put out something that doesn't look so great that the non-hardcore fans will be likely to gobble up. Look at the number of people posting here who think that colorized versions of the test toy look much better. Those who are less exacting won't notice all the problems we've been complaining about. And it's probably a lot cheaper to go this route, while they'll make a lot of money without having to spend more to engineer something really fantastic. And Bandai knows they're the only game in town for years when it comes to Macross Frontier.

We take what they put out or tough $hit.

We do have the option of a model kit, which isn't much of an alternative to a toy considering all the downsides to a model. We'll be getting a partsforming VF-25 that so far appears to have many of the same problems as its big brother, with the exception that it looks thinner.

Yamato has had and continues to have its fair share of problems. In QC Yamato still has a way to go. Design-wise they're currently kicking the crap out of Bandai, and they shouldn't be considering how long Bandai has been in the game of making mecha and toys.

[MacrossJunkie]

I'm not sure how or why Bandai managed to do it, but in many ways the shots of the final versions are worse than the original colored early prototypes. The Ozma version for example doesn't look too shabby in the early prototype picture, but the final looks like it has Down Syndrome. The early version has more of a neck and the head rises above the "shoulder blades". The ankles while being too low on early one are just too high to the point of being comedic.

I was impressed with all the detail Bandai etched into the toy shown in some of the close up prototype pics, but without the supporting proportions that capture the essence of the valk, all that detail becomes moot. I mean you can say Yamato's YF-21 is not perfectly proportioned, but I don't think people were really expecting "perfect". The battroid mode's proportions do well in capturing the essence of the valkyrie as portrayed in the anime and line art in all the key places from the front and back. Bandai's 1/60 VF-25 however just doesn't seem to manage to do that, imo. Which is made even more disappointing in the knowledge that many of the compromises in proportions didn't not have to be that way as evidenced by the 1/72 model. The height of the legs with respect to the crotch piece in the model can be adjusted due to the U-shaped swing bar it appears to be using. If this was made of die-cast, there's no reason it couldn't have been used on the toy while keeping the durability aspect. Instead, they just have a straight rod coming out of the upper part of the crotch piece itself to attach the legs to.

[anime52k8]

Please. It's not about caring. It's about what design and direction they decided upon (however wrong it may feel to some of us).

And really, if they really didn't care then why did they bother sponsoring Macross Frontier in the first place?

couldn't agree more. as of yet, we have absolutely now evidence (other than the leg gap) that the toy has any actual design or manufacturing flaws. everything else are design decisions on bandai's part. its their product and if they want to make it chunkier they can; some of us might not like it, but were not making the thing and we aren't required to buy it.

if you don't like where they're going with the toy that's fine, but saying that the bandai doesn't care about the quality of it's products or isn't putting in the effort is frankly unfair.

it's like saying Pollock or Rothko are lazy or inferior painters because they chose not to paint people or landscapes.

[Graham]

I'm not sure how or why Bandai managed to do it, but in many ways the shots of the final versions are worse than the original colored early prototypes. The Ozma version for example doesn't look too shabby in the early prototype picture, but the final looks like it has Down Syndrome. The early version has more of a neck and the head rises above the "shoulder blades". The ankles while being too low on early one are just too high to the point of being comedic.

I think in the latest pics, the Ozma battroid is just mis-transformed and they forgot to extend the neck.

Graham

[brouken]

Okay, I've seen the latest pics and have been thinking a lot about my response to it.

True, its definitely not 100 percent line-art accurate. I agree that the hip placement and the extended ankles in battroid mode, as well as the gaps between the shield and legs in valkyrie mode, are huge departures as far as being anime-accurate is concerned.

That being said, I must say that the latest pics are not as bad as I thought they would be given the criticisms being given here.

I'm not trying to defend either company. What I care about here is whether my money will be well spent on a good product. I've gotten my money's worth from Yamato's V.2 VF-1S as far as I'm concerned.

The DX looks okay so far. The hip placement, in my opinion, gives it a more solid look. In fact, it looks more like a Vf-1 or Vf-0, which in my book, is a good thing.

The question is, whether those design choices were made in compromise to the DX having to support the fast and armored packs.

The gaps between the shield and legs makes sense, if you consider that the armored packs alone provide a considerable amount of bulk to the legs.

What I'm more concerned about is whether the level of articulation has also been compromised because of this. For example, the knees look a little too high. That would make i difficult to pose the battroid I think.

So far, I haven't seen any other "action" poses of the battroid, and that worries me. It may look good to me, but I want something that I can pose and play with too.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

True, i haven't thought about the Armour and how it will attach...

[Nani?!]

hah, and yet I'm the biggest hater on this board for the yamato konig and I've been one of the most vocal criticizers of the vf-0 arm fiasco (I even had my vf-0s' shattered shoulder as my avatar) and I have yet to join the "the 1/60 ver 2 vf-1 is the greatest thing ever" club and I've been pretty vocal about it's design compromises and I've been vocal about yamato still not fixing the shoulder gap on the 1/60 yf-19 in fighter mode. So, it's nice that you can pick and choose what you want to call me, like Kawamori, you must like retcons

hehe

The konig doesn't count. It's unanimously & unequivocally considered a poor QCed POS. Anything coming from yamato at that era was, to be frank...

My point is less about you loving or having wet dreams with yamato products than it is in regards to your vocal disdain for people who have expressed, like you have in this thread, dissatisfaction regarding a particular area of a toy that isn't, according to their vision, faithful to the anime.

We all have that right... as do you have the right to disagree when someone exercises that right... just sans the sometimes sarcastic, oft demeaning, frequently stupifying verbal smack downs you unleash in the even that that occurs.

And for the record, there's a HUGE difference between going on about an imaginary angling of the wings and not putting the freaking hip joint in the right place. Oh, and while it wasn't you, also a difference between comparing the toy to actual animation samples and comparing it endlessly to a doctored example of "line art".

True... but that's how much some people LOVE the yf-19... I still cant get over the fact that the fast packs can only attach with the legs angled down and the crooked mounted gunpod.

Anyway, back on topic.

[eugimon]

hehe

The konig doesn't count. It's unanimously & unequivocally considered a poor QCed POS. Anything coming from yamato at that era was, to be frank...

My point is less about you loving or having wet dreams with yamato products than it is in regards to your vocal disdain for people who have expressed, like you have in this thread, dissatisfaction regarding a particular area of a toy that isn't, according to their vision, faithful to the anime.

We all have that right... as do you have the right to disagree when someone exercises that right... just sans the sometimes sarcastic, oft demeaning, frequently stupifying verbal smack downs you unleash in the even that that occurs.

True... but that's how much some people LOVE the yf-19... I still cant get over the fact that the fast packs can only attach with the legs angled down and the crooked mounted gunpod.

Anyway, back on topic.

It must be difficult not being able to tell the difference between someone disagreeing with you and a personal attack. See, my thinking the DX is fugly is me disagreeing with whoever. Them coming back and calling me a yamato fanboy, saying I have no idea what I'm talking about, rolling their eyes at me, or in the case of video games, telling to STFU because I haven't played all X number of previous games, that's a personal attack.

Point of fact, I have been apologetic about the design, I've posted previously and on numerous occasions my pet theories on why the chunky design: because of the materials (metal) and to support the weight of the FAST PACKS and armor, something the 1/48 can barely do. I've also made apologetic remarks concerning the leg placement in fighter mode as well as the reason for the truncated castor wheel gears. I've said these things and then i've explained that I'm primarily interested in looks and accuracy and thus my reason for not liking this design. All of which have been ignored by some people when they want to take pot shots at me.

Have I made snide and sarcastic remarks? Sure, usually in response to someone else who comes in with their own snarky sarcastic comment. In plenty of cases, such as my conversation with miriya a few pages back. He asked me if I was "trippin" (good naturedly) and I explained my reasons and we came to an agreement and we moved on. It's when people start attacking me, calling me a fanboy or saying that I'm a toy plebe or what not that I return the favor in kind. Have I jumped the gun on someone? Yes, and when I get called on it, I've apologized to them both in private and publicly.

If you want to continue this, please send me a PM. But this jumping in every few months to take pot shot at me? That's just weak-sauce.

Edited October 9, 2008 by eugimon

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

It's not out yet so I'll reserve judgement.

Bandai if this fails, (I doubt it will) make some perfect grade vf-25.

[Dashgtr]

Hey,

Relax man, I know how you feel, BTW it's your own point of view dun take it to heart what the rest said. There's no 100% everybody agreeing on the same thing. My point of view is that Bandai makes toys that are fun to play with but not really to scale (doesn't really look that good) Where as Yamato makes nice looking toys (for adults to play and with care) I remember my first Bandai VF1S DYRL Hikaru, at that time it's the best toy I ever have, later when the Roy came out I got it too and not regrets it's still good. But when time past and I grew older, I think to myself how nice if macross can come out a more detailed VF1 series. Yamato first relased the 1/60 but hated the transformation by having to detached the legs. But in term of looks it looks better just not as fun. Not long after the god answered my prayers, Yamato release the 1/48 and wow it brought macross back from the grave. Although the price is high but it's worth it. Something which looks good, detail, fun to play with and post. It's almost prefect. And instead of improving for Bandai they just release the same old thing (only with the head changed) but QC is bad comparing to the past. I collect both Bandai and Yamato toys as long as it's macross and I love it.

We are all macross fans here, of course we wants the toys to be as closed to the real thing as possible but it takes alot of time and effort so why not meanwhile lets just wait and see the actual product before making any harmful commands.

It must be difficult not being able to tell the difference between someone disagreeing with you and a personal attack. See, my thinking the DX is fugly is me disagreeing with whoever. Them coming back and calling me a yamato fanboy, saying I have no idea what I'm talking about, rolling their eyes at me, or in the case of video games, telling to STFU because I haven't played all X number of previous games, that's a personal attack.

Point of fact, I have been apologetic about the design, I've posted previously and on numerous occasions my pet theories on why the chunky design: because of the materials (metal) and to support the weight of the FAST PACKS and armor, something the 1/48 can barely do. I've also made apologetic remarks concerning the leg placement in fighter mode as well as the reason for the truncated castor wheel gears. I've said these things and then i've explained that I'm primarily interested in looks and accuracy and thus my reason for not liking this design. All of which have been ignored by some people when they want to take pot shots at me.

Have I made snide and sarcastic remarks? Sure, usually in response to someone else who comes in with their own snarky sarcastic comment. In plenty of cases, such as my conversation with miriya a few pages back. He asked me if I was "trippin" (good naturedly) and I explained my reasons and we came to an agreement and we moved on. It's when people start attacking me, calling me a fanboy or saying that I'm a toy plebe or what not that I return the favor in kind. Have I jumped the gun on someone? Yes, and when I get called on it, I've apologized to them both in private and publicly.

If you want to continue this, please send me a PM. But this jumping in every few months to take pot shot at me? That's just weak-sauce.

[anime52k8]

ANNNYYYWWWAAYYS back to the toy!

has anyone ever noticed that the thing is covered in big holes? I assume they're for the fast packs. speaking of fast packs, have we actualy seen anything new about them since the super old resin prototype shots?

[VFTF1]

Daaaaag.

Reading all of these exacting and critical posts, I feel like I'm a blind chump who uncritically cheers whatever a company places before my eyes.

I like the VF-25 that Bandai has given us; the only thing I'm curious about is:

1) Just how durable is it? Hopefully very.

2) How poseable is it (we've seen a few pics but nothing exploring the full range - I hope!)

3) Will Bandai include a stand? (pleeeaaaasssee)

Pete

[Jasonc]

I'm definitely reserving 70% of my judgement for the final product. However, fighting over differences in opinion over a toy company's practices to the point of personal attacks is just lame, not to mention childish as hell. You know, whether someone can't stand Bandai because they ruined their childhood, or they love them, leave it be. Besides, I thought this was about BANDAI, and the VF-25, not Yamato vs Bandai.

Going back on topic, I don't think the VF-25 is as terrible as it has been made to seem here. While it does seem to have a number of lineart issues, how well it turns out as a toy is totally unknown. The fact that there's still some time away from release, I believe there's gonna be some fixes. As to how much, one can only hope for the best, but I've got my preorders done, just waiting on shipment.

[daflip702]

Great....we got our first valk with highwaters, via Urkle from Family Matters....

Bandai said, "Did I do thaaaaaaat?" Hahaha. Not Funny.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

lol

[carzooyah]

Daaaaag.

Reading all of these exacting and critical posts, I feel like I'm a blind chump who uncritically cheers whatever a company places before my eyes.

I like the VF-25 that Bandai has given us; the only thing I'm curious about is:

1) Just how durable is it? Hopefully very.

2) How poseable is it (we've seen a few pics but nothing exploring the full range - I hope!)

3) Will Bandai include a stand? (pleeeaaaasssee)

Pete

I'd be a very happy panda if number 3 is a reality. I like the VF-25 so far, even though it's misproportioned and all. I really like the Alto compared to the Ozma now though.

[sqidd]

For what it's worth I have not seen any of the line art so I am a blank slate. With that being said I think the Bandai VF-25 looks great. Fighter mode rocks.

[regult]

After updating myself on this thread (yes, read all 36 pages, or at least scanned thru them), after building, applying decals (with softener and in a wrong way), transformed the 1/72 kit...I really would like to get a sturdier toy. I have no idea how many more transformations it can take before I have to redecorate it completely or sth just snaps (3 or 4?), even thought about buying a back up kit...

Unfortunately, the latest painted samples are different from the earlier unpainted ones in only one area: PAINT (and the black artsy fartsy backgroud).

None of the real problems have been addressed: leg position in battroid mode, leg position in fighter, pushing too hard on the "A stance" in gerwalk mode (knees still don't go forwards all the way), drooping nosecone, hiding the landing gear, (not really mentioned) a biggish chest area...I am not sure why so many of us didn't notice, besides a paint job and some lighting effects, nothing was done to the tooling AT ALL.

Maybe Japanese fans of chunky monkeys can dispose some income on this DX 1/60, and some hardcore guys can instead go and spend days building transformation kits that cannot really be transformed many times...but my plan is either to become a master model builder (?!?!) or wait for Revoltech figures and gashapoons now!

(it's not lthat the kit is PERFECT: it looks good in battroid and gerwalk modes and is quite poseable, but in fighter, there are too many gaps in the chest/shoulder and the legs/engines just don't stay there unless sitting on landing gears. Still, it's much more accurate than this DX version).

Edited October 9, 2008 by regult

[regult]

Let me just add 1 more thing: if this toy had been released 4, 5 years ago, maybe it's fine (remember those early Yamatos??), but after years of technical development, of trial and error, a modern-day toy could be more lineart or anime accurate than this.

Nobody is really asking for perfection (even with CG they still "cheat" -a lot-: in episode 25, you can clearly see the tailfin of Ozma's gunpod "sink" into his battroid's right arm!!!!!), I am just hoping for a toy that's more durable than a model and accurate enough to fool my eyes.

Edited October 9, 2008 by regult

[Scream Man]

......So when will yamato get the Frontier licence again?

Im thinkin i can hold out...