POLL: Dub or Sub?

[eugimon]

no, of course not all anime is art, but surely you can agree that when studio ghibli releases a film it ranks a little bit higher on the art food chain than alvin and the chipmunks. And yet disney would have released the the US DVD without a japanese language audio track if a bunch of thirty something single fat guys didn't throw a poo party.

[Wes]

Dubs. I like to watch not read. The only thing is there's a thin pool of VAs here and some of them are annoying.

[JsARCLIGHT]

There's an exception to every rule. I'm mostly talking about the crap "we" the fans watch. In all seriousness every trip I've taken down Best Buy's "anime isle" in the past few years has been met with more laughs than interest. Sub or dub doesn't matter to me when the stuff looks stupid to begin with.

[eugimon]

well, sure. Naruto is hardly going to become deep and profound because some japanese person is yelling "something something ninja attack" versus some american soccer mom yelling "something something ninja attack".

But then again, Amélie is hardly deep or profound. It was a light fluff movie that had a cute gimmick, some nice photography and a fresh face. I'm just saying that studio executives have certain assumptions on what consumers want and expect from films and media from europe versus film and media from Asia.

[Noriko Takaya]

Subs. 'nuff said.

[Macross007]

If you see me watching a dud one day, then shoot me to death and beat me like a dead horse without any hesitation. Hope I answered your question.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Macross007

[bsu legato]

a fat balding thirty something wearing a chocolate and dorito stained Han Shot First T-shirt to laud the glory of the almighty sub,

Of sweet, I was wondering when I'd get a chance to post this:

[Keith]

Just remember this. Dubs are the reason that there's no Macross Frontier license in the U.S.!

[Max Jenius]

I go subbed unless in certain cases where the dub is acceptable (Cowboy BeBop, for example). If you get a good group of voice actors together, then it's essentially the same thing. I could go either way in this case.

Generally subbed is better imho because the Japanese voice actors seem to take it more seriously... I wonder how they sound to japanese folk quality wise...

Edited August 29, 2008 by Max Jenius

[JsARCLIGHT]

Just remember this. Dubs are the reason that there's no Macross Frontier license in the U.S.!

If not for those same "dubs" many of us would never have even been exposed to Macross in the first place.

Double edged sword.

[Nexx Stalker]

If american dubs were so good, we'd all be hanging out on some forum dedicated to some garbage american cartoon.

hehehe, too bad. Italian dubs rock, so I'm all for dubs over subtitles.

[David Hingtgen]

I never saw Robotech until Cartoon Network showed, my first animated Macross was Plus. (I'm a Macross fan due to Jetfire, actually)

[mpchi]

I almost never go dub, unless its very well done, and when subtitle is not an option. Would rather not watch the show with sub-par dub. So subtitle for me all the way.

All those Japanese talent were cast for the show to tailor fit the characters, and they are a lot more serious and advance in their job & industry, with some seiyus reaching celebrity level (due to their great acting and many years of experience). Its just not the same when finding someone else (and often not talented in voice acting), from a different culture, and try to be that character and read the lines in time (instead of the other way around, having the animation fitting the timing of how the original dialogues first recorded). Its just not the same man. Kind of like watching The Dark Knight in Spanish or Chinese voice over, when Joker no longer sounds like Ledger.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Christ, you're old.

lol tounge in cheek?

Not directed at you Yellowlightman, But this thread is a bit of a laugh, brings all the trolls out for all to see!

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Of sweet, I was wondering when I'd get a chance to post this:

hahahah @ "---Empty"

[Noriko Takaya]

...this thread is a bit of a laugh, brings all the trolls out for all to see!

I hope you're not calling us trolls. Most of the posts here have been by regular posters. (Oops! Now I've gone and done it. Close the thread before things get worse!)

[Duke Togo]

Dom or sub?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Dom or sub?

The mass media wants us all to be sub. <-Gimp, not Ninja

[Oihan]

I prefer to watch subs over dubs. There's only been a few times where I thought the dubs were a lot better than the original voice acting. Take DBZ for instance...Goku's voice just sounds off-kilter in my opinion; his voice sounds so much better dubbed. There have been a few other dubs that I have enjoyed though...like Ninja Scroll, GitS: SAC, and Cowboy Bebop to name a few. In the end though, I'll still prefer subs over dubs. ...It's not like I can't pause or rewatch a show in case I missed something.

[Roy Focker]

Subs for me.

Maybe dubs if they were done right. To do that I think the budget would have to be $100 million alone for a dub. Most dubs just sound like the same old crap. It is like they have pool of the same crappy VO actors. Seem to cast voices based on character's appearance and hardly ever after the character's personalty or previous VO. I can't watch dubbed anime cause it just all sounds the same. Besides reading and watching at the same time isn't that hard.

[yellowlightman]

Of sweet, I was wondering when I'd get a chance to post this:

There's one wildly inaccurate part of that image, and that's the silhouette of the fanboy. Way too skinny.

[bsu legato]

Just remember this. Dubs are the reason that there's no Macross Frontier license in the U.S.!

See, when you post something like this right after that "fanboy" image, it makes me believe that "Keith" is really just an elaborate charade, like a character created as a piece of performance art to mess with the rest of us. C'mon,....who is this really?

[EXO]

See, when you post something like this right after that "fanboy" image, it makes me believe that "Keith" is really just an elaborate charade, like a character created as a piece of performance art to mess with the rest of us. C'mon,....who is this really?

AgentOne?

[grss1982]

SUBTITLES FTW!!!

I've seen a lot of anime here in the Philippines dubbed in the local languauge, and they pretty much suck. As for dubs in the American language, the only anime I recall that had for me IMHO had good dubbing was Samurai-X a.ka. Rurouni Kenshin.

IIRC, the American dub of RT was shown here locally once and I did not like it. Although I did eventually find SDFM through my research in the Internetz about RT.

[Vegas]

i prefer subs. im so used to it. besides dubbed sounds wierd to me and call me AR but i prefer to listen to the original japanese voice actors

lastly i get to learn hirgana and katakana while watching the OP and ED credits

[Keith]

If not for those same "dubs" many of us would never have even been exposed to Macross in the first place.

Double edged sword.

Yes we would have, tv dub anime has "never" been popular in the mass media, less so than retail anime.

[Keith]

See, when you post something like this right after that "fanboy" image, it makes me believe that "Keith" is really just an elaborate charade, like a character created as a piece of performance art to mess with the rest of us. C'mon,....who is this really?

Yadda yadda, more on topic, less feeble attempts to draw away from the fact that dubs suck.

[Bri]

A question that I have is when an American TV show or movie is released overseas is it dubbed into the native language? Many times it is. Is that "wrong"? Are foreign fanboys clamoring to see The X Files, The Simpsons or the latest Disney cartoon in English with Russian or German subtitles? I think there is a great degree of strange haughtiness and self-righteousness in the American anime fan when it comes to subbing and dubbing that is not necessarily there in our foreign counterparts. Then again almost all of our foreign counterparts speak or at least understand rudimentary English so they don't have the same shortcomings the vast majority of westerners have being monolingual.

Edit: And my comment about anime not performing well on US television is in reference to the shows are that NOT watered down and homoginized. Anime on Adult Swim is a ratings graveyard for them and many people still wonder why they still show it as their domestic comedy shows outperform it three to one generally. The American market has shown that hard core "real" anime shows perform poorly here while "Americanized" dubbed "kid friendly" junk that can be mass marketed like Naruto can hold their own in the toy isle and in the 8 to 12 demographics.

Edit o' the Edit: Also outside of us nutjob fanboys subtitles are actually stigmatized in the regular circles. Most Americans will groan and roll their eyes at subtitles but if the program is dubbed they will stand a greater chance of watching it and warming to it. It's always a tough call to mass release a foreign film that is subtitled in US theaters. Subtitles are almost always relegated to the "art house set" and it's kind of an unspoken "rule" in hollywood that Joe and Jill Six Pack (the people who generally pay to see movies or buy videos) won't abide subtitles. A good example of this is my own experience long ago trying to indoctrinate friends into anime. I found it was far, far easier to get a friend who had no prior interest in watching "them foreign cartoons" to sit down and watch when the program was dubbed. Akira was always my "first strike" in college. I'd show someone the dubbed Akira and see how they took to it. If they did I'd slowly bring them into other shows, eventually going to subs. But there were some people who'd watch dubbed Akira then see the subbed version and tell me they would not have "given it a chance" if I had shown them the subbed version first.

The circular return of my point is that dubbing caters to the new, the uninitiated and the masses while subs cater to the hardcore regular. If you want to sell your "funny foreign cartoon" to the masses, you need to dub it. If you want to sell "Super Noodle Crazy Indie Robot Children Go" to the thirty something single fat guy with a ponytail you sub it and sell it on dvd for $35 and pray you cover your costs. It's all business in the end, none of this crap qualifies as "art" anymore IMHO. If you think the current state of most anime is art then that means Alvin and the Chipmunks and the Smurfs qualify as well.

Interesting point you make. Still I am convinced that subtitles don't neccesarily drive away the main stream audiences. In my country most foreign shows on televesion are subbed. Mostly due to cost constrains I guess, but it doesn't lower those shows ratings. There are always dubbed and subbed Disney movies in the cinema, dubs for childeren and subs for adults. I'm sure it is more of a matter of getting used to subtitles. Expectations about what the audience wants might not reflect what the audience in reality is prepared to accept. Makes me wonder if Joe sixpack really exists or if it is just an excuse of TV execs to feed the public garbage.

I'm sure there is a part of the masses in any country that knows every person in Big Brother, thinks there is good music in the top 40, listens to Oprahs advice and zaps between sports channels. These people are not likely to pick up anime in any but the most dumbed down version. I'm not trying to be elitist but why cater to the desires of the lowest common denominator? I'd rather pay some extra cash to get merchandise and dvds shipped in then having to watch to shows that tailor made to that part of the audience.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Bri

[Agent ONE]

While I agree with your arguement, it always struck me as a but odd, I mean, no one would suggest that a french film would have to be released in the US with a voice over. I mean, people would riot if Amélie had been released with I dunno, jessica alba doing a voice over for Audrey Tautou...

It would have improved that lame movie.

[Agent ONE]

See, when you post something like this right after that "fanboy" image, it makes me believe that "Keith" is really just an elaborate charade, like a character created as a piece of performance art to mess with the rest of us. C'mon,....who is this really?

Keith must exist to balance the universe... Without Keith, I can not exist.

[grss1982]

Keith must exist to balance the universe... Without Keith, I can not exist.

Are you saying that you're the YING to Keith's YANG?

[bsu legato]

Yadda yadda, more on topic, less feeble attempts to draw away from the fact that dubs suck.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where I was somehow defending dubs.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Yes we would have, tv dub anime has "never" been popular in the mass media, less so than retail anime.

That is a bold statement with no real way to back it up. Without the imported and dubbed TV anime boom in the late '70s / early '80s I highly doubt anime would be as popular in America as it is today. Those imported and dubbed shows started many American fans down this road as well as began the "precedent" for American companies to import and distribute "foreign" cartoon programs. Had this not happened when it did who knows where the import anime biz would be today. What you are surmising is something akin to asking or implying "if there was no Star Wars in 1977 would the American sci fi boom that occurred in it's wake have happened?" Theoretically yes and no. It would have possibly eventually happened but it would have happened in a much different way with vastly different results. It took Star Wars for hollywood to realize sci fi was big business again. They had written it off as unprofitable "kiddie fare" unworthy of true investment or pursuit. If it had not been for Speed Racer, Battle of the Planets, Tranzor Z, Starblazers and all the other early dubbed anime imports the seeds for the current trends would never have been laid and what we know of as "American anime fandom" today would be a much different creature. And at the same time the current crop of dubbed anime running on American TV keeps it in the public spotlight. The Narutos and Dragonballs keep mainstream anime alive... and they are all dubbed.

Then again we are still viewing this from the inside with rose colored lenses. Anime is, was, and will always be a niche thing. Anime that does defy the norm and break into mainstream broadcast media popularity does so dubbed, it's a fact. And mainstream popularity is what media investors want. This is a business after all. These folks who import anime to the US are not doing it "for the fans" or for some noble purpose, they are doing it to make money... and you make the most money if you can get your property on TV and sell it's toys in the toy isle. They could care less about "purity" or artists' intent. A few thousand dorks buying the occasional DVD (when nowadays if you believe the hype they pirate far more than they buy... and from what I've seen of the folks roaming this place I'm inclined to believe that) or cash in on the millions and millions of kids in the market with a show like Naruto, Dragonball, etc. that has tons of toys and merchandise to peddle? I wish I had access to the property turn numbers on a show like Naruto as I bet it would dwarf most "indie" anime DVD releases tenfold, to the point that I bet if you combined 90% of the indie anime releases into one column and put it up against Naruto, mainstream dubbed Naruto would still have made more money.

[Agent ONE]

Are you saying that you're the YING to Keith's YANG?

Thats right...

10,000 years ago the most awesome powers in the universe were forced to converge to one place.. and create one being, this being having the sole purpose of countering the convergence of lameness and fanboyism which had also manifested itself in one being..

If Keith dies, I must die... This is a rather uncomfortable subject because once when this subject came up, Keith asked if we could die together in embrace... I told him that that's totally gay and if he tries it he is gonna get a beating.

Edit in:

For the new guys, Keith and I are friends, though we agree on nothing. So the arguments are endless.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Agent ONE

[VFTF1]

For once, I am on the side of the majority: Subtitles!

I hate dubs, I hate them with a burning passion because they lie to me. Subtitles desipher something foreign; often times they leave some room for thinking "huh?" - and that's good, because it leads me to want to understand the grey spots better.

Dubs are lies- someone interprets something and you end up watching the interpretation instead of being confronted by the strangeness of what the show was really trying to portray.

And just for clarity: I prefer literal textual translations in books as well - even at the expense of "proper" grammar and style and form - all of these are secondary: let it sound "wierd" - fine - often time different languages express things that our language does not give us access to - so dubbing and doing intepretive translations denies us that access and covers over something special.

VFT1